The tension between works and faith

[fhansen]

I like to say something here. Doing good works is really obeying God, living the way God wants us to live. So I see it more like a direction in life, rather than focusing on single acts.

I have a friend that is trying to to do all these good things to somehow be seen by God. I feel that is the approach of someone that doesn't really know who God is. God loves us not because of how we live, but because God is love. But if we want to serve God we are to walk in obedience throughout life, rather than doing this and that to please God.

Man has an obligation to be righteous, and live accordingly. That obligation does not go away with the New Covenant. The difference is that now we have the true means to fulfill that obligation, with God, by the Spirit, under grace rather than under the law. All accomplished by the reconcilation between man and God realized in and through Christ.

Man's role, his very first job, is simply to turn to God in faith, in response to Christ's calling us. Then union with Him is established -the most basic right order of things for man. We are in a state of justice now, finally, with our wills and His aligning themselves.

To the extent that we remain in Him, that we value that relationship, our conviction and willingness only grow, and so too our own justice /righteousness which He authors within us: faith, hope, and love. We increasingly will to do the right thing IOW, and do it, and the obligation is correctly fulfilled; God now has us where He's always wanted us, so to speak.

He has a perfect "design" for each of us in mind and while that's the goal, He's not expecting perfection right this instant, only that we get on that road, and remain on it.

 

[zoidar]

Man has an obligation to be righteous, and live accordingly. That obligation does not go away with the New Covenant. The difference is that now we have the true means to fulfill that obligation, with God, by the Spirit, under grace rather than under the law. All accomplished by the reconcilation between man and God realized in and through Christ.

I don't disagree with that. Of course we are to live righteously

 

[zoidar]

Your friend believes in God, and God commands us to put our treasure in Heaven. These good deeds your friend is trying to do help people.

I don't blame him for his good intention to help others. The problem is when you do this or that to balance out that you are a sinner. That's not how it works. Of course we are to live for God, but not to earn salvation.

 

[fhansen]

I don't disagree with that. Of course we are to live righteously

Obligated to -with eternal life at stake. We're obligated to be righteous first of all, a matter of the heart, to love to.put it most succinctly, whereby sin is excluded and good deeds come about naturally, apart from fear or a sense of duty or desire for recompense.

 

[The Liturgist]

I don't blame him for his good intention to help others. The problem is when you do this or that to balance out that you are a sinner. That's not how it works. Of course we are to live for God, but not to earn salvation.

It’s not Pelagian to seek to do good works because one has become convicted of sin, but rather a sign of a healthy faith. Remember the advice our Lord gave the rich man, to sell all that he had, give the proceeds as alms, and take up his cross and follow our Lord. A large number of Christians throughout history, aware of their sin, have given away their material wealth entirely to pursue a simple Gospel-centered life of prayer, starting with the hermit Saint Anthony in the early fourth century, when the Diocletian Persecution was still active, who following the death of his parents, sold his possessions, established a trust for the care of his younger sister, distributed the rest of the proceeds as alms, and then, after several failed attempts to get the Romans to allow him to die with those Christians arrested for martyrdom, including obstructing their processions (the soldiers merely pushed him out of the way), he retired to the desert to pray.

The biography of Anthony, entitled simply The Life of Anthony, was written by the same man, Athanasius, who as the chief deacon of Bishop Alexander of Alexandria, defended the doctrine of the Incarnation of our Lord against Arius at the Council of Nicea, and was later exiled from his native Alexandria, over which he had become Bishop, and his absence was lamented by the people; he was exiled in the late 330s and not allowed to return until around 360, under Julian the Apostate, and he died later that decade, but before he died, in the 39th year of his episcopate, he published in his annual encyclical setting the date of Pascha (Easter) to the bishops of Egypt*, who were subordinate to him, the first binding and definitive New Testament canon - it was the first canon containing all and only the 27 books we use, and it was mandated, and this New Testament canon slowly was adopted by the rest of the Church (the Roman church, which used to be extremely conservative, confining itself primarily to the ecclesiastical affairs of Rome rather than the Western Empire as a whole, and hesitant to make any changes to anything, not even using Latin instead of Greek in their worship until the late second century, and not using music except for monotone until the late fifth century, and really, not doing it in a good or comprehensive way until Pope Gregory the Great, who had been trained in Greek chant and implemented a similar eight mode system we now call Gregorian chant at the end of the sixth century, did not adopt the Athanasian Canon of the 27 New Testament books until the Decretum Gelasianum in 493, under Pope Gelasius).

So, given the provenance of the biography of Saint Anthony the Great, that it was written by the same man who forced through the 27 book New Testament canon we benefit from so much today (imagine if the spurious Epistle of Barnabas, which some people wanted, had been included, or Revelations, Jude, James, Hebrews, 2 John, 3 John and 2 Peter, and 1 and 2 Timothy, Titus and Philemon had been left out, as many more authorities in the church wanted, and which were absent from many bibles at the time - Athanasius prevented that), I think every Christian should try and read it, along with the doctrinal exposition Athanasius wrote, entitled On The Incarnation.

 

[zoidar]

It’s not Pelagian to seek to do good works because one has become convicted of sin, but rather a sign of a healthy faith. Remember the advice our Lord gave the rich man, to sell all that he had, give the proceeds as alms, and take up his cross and follow our Lord. A large number of Christians throughout history, aware of their sin, have given away their material wealth entirely to pursue a simple Gospel-centered life of prayer, starting with the hermit Saint Anthony in the early fourth century, when the Diocletian Persecution was still active, who following the death of his parents, sold his possessions, established a trust for the care of his younger sister, distributed the rest of the proceeds as alms, and then, after several failed attempts to get the Romans to allow him to die with those Christians arrested for martyrdom, including obstructing their processions (the soldiers merely pushed him out of the way), he retired to the desert to pray.

The biography of Anthony, entitled simply The Life of Anthony, was written by the same man, Athanasius, who as the chief deacon of Bishop Alexander of Alexandria, defended the doctrine of the Incarnation of our Lord against Arius at the Council of Nicea, and was later exiled from his native Alexandria, over which he had become Bishop, and his absence was lamented by the people; he was exiled in the late 330s and not allowed to return until around 360, under Julian the Apostate, and he died later that decade, but before he died, in the 39th year of his episcopate, he published in his annual encyclical setting the date of Pascha (Easter) to the bishops of Egypt*, who were subordinate to him, the first binding and definitive New Testament canon - it was the first canon containing all and only the 27 books we use, and it was mandated, and this New Testament canon slowly was adopted by the rest of the Church (the Roman church, which used to be extremely conservative, confining itself primarily to the ecclesiastical affairs of Rome rather than the Western Empire as a whole, and hesitant to make any changes to anything, not even using Latin instead of Greek in their worship until the late second century, and not using music except for monotone until the late fifth century, and really, not doing it in a good or comprehensive way until Pope Gregory the Great, who had been trained in Greek chant and implemented a similar eight mode system we now call Gregorian chant at the end of the sixth century, did not adopt the Athanasian Canon of the 27 New Testament books until the Decretum Gelasianum in 493, under Pope Gelasius).

So, given the provenance of the biography of Saint Anthony the Great, that it was written by the same man who forced through the 27 book New Testament canon we benefit from so much today (imagine if the spurious Epistle of Barnabas, which some people wanted, had been included, or Revelations, Jude, James, Hebrews, 2 John, 3 John and 2 Peter, and 1 and 2 Timothy, Titus and Philemon had been left out, as many more authorities in the church wanted, and which were absent from many bibles at the time - Athanasius prevented that), I think every Christian should try and read it, along with the doctrinal exposition Athanasius wrote, entitled On The Incarnation.

I haven't read anything about Saint Anthony the Great. I have read a book about Saint Francis of Assisi. I don't know if many would agree, but I found his life to be unhealthy ascetic, rather than a devoted Christian life.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I know we can "know" things that turns out to be wrong. From your perspective we can know we are saved, but not fully know that what we know is true, correct? How do we then get the security of being a child of God?

Is the idea that I know I am a child of God by how my life is changed?

When I listened to a Reformed teacher (I leave out his name), I got the idea that if we live in sin, we are to question if we were really born again. I don't know if I got that correct.

What most people mean by 'Eternal Security' is not about feeling secure, but about the fact of eternal salvation. So I don't know what you are asking, because it sounds like you are asking how one FEELS secure.

The idea of 'works' as evidence is in the Bible, but certainly it is not the only one, and furthermore, that is a subjective judgement for the believer to make. THAT is God's to judge.

But as I expect you are aware, "He walks with me, he talks with me", is simple fact for the believer that walks with God, even if inconsistently (as the believer may judge it) walking with God. Also, "The Spirit witnesses to our spirit that we are the children of God." Also, at least so it seems to me, the way prayers for righteousness, purity, holiness, Godliness, come ripping from of my soul (so it seems —I don't know a better way to describe it—) tell me that it matters to God, concerning me, as much as it does to me. Also, the fact that my desire to see him as he is, and to see his satisfaction with what he has made, far outweighs any other reward or even the feeling of security that I will make it to Heaven, tells me who I belong to.

 

[Bro.T]

I have thought about this quite much. What is needed to be saved, faith only, faith and works?

The conclusion I have come to is that there is a tension between faith and works. The idea is that we are saved purely by faith, but if we don't have works/obedience in our life, our faith is not saving faith.

So like the sermon on the mount is a call for us to be obedient, living for Christ, and at the same time we know it's not our works but faith that saves us. Therefore the tension, if we don't have obedience/works we are not to feel secure by our faith. But if we have obedience, we can trust our faith saves us.

I think obedience is to be radical, the sermon on the mount is radical, yet we are also human beings that are imperfect, but we are to strive towards living in uthermost obedience.

Thoughts?

I agree, Paul said in (Gal. 6 (v.3) For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself. (v.4) But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.

The book says let every man prove his own work, and if your work is good then you will rejoice in it. (v.5) For every man shall bear his own burden. That’s right; every man must bear his own burden. Brothers and sisters you must work to get salvation. (v.7) Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. God is not to be played with. Whatsoever you plant, that’s what you are going to reap. Be it good works unto eternal life, or evil works unto eternal damnation. The choice is yours, and your works belong to you.

Jesus said in (Matt. 16:24-27) (v.24) Then said Jesus unto his disciples, if any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. That was the Lord’s burden, to die on the cross for the sins of man. Now as we read earlier every man must bear his own burden, and what is your burden? (v.25) For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. You must give up your life in this world; you must not get caught up in the cares of this world. You must bring forth-good fruits of faith by keeping God’s commandments, statues, and judgments. (v.26) For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? Some of the great patriarchs in (Heb.11) gave up a lot, some even their lives in exchange for their soul. You see they had great faith (belief) that their souls (bodies) would be raised at the first resurrection. (v.27) For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his holy angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Now these are the words of Jesus (the Son of man), you know the savior of the world. He said that when he comes he is going to judge every man according to his works.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I don't blame him for his good intention to help others. The problem is when you do this or that to balance out that you are a sinner. That's not how it works. Of course we are to live for God, but not to earn salvation.

Does your friend believe in being saved by God’s grace initially and foundationally?
Does he see obedience to God or good works as following after being saved by God’s grace?

 

[zoidar]

What most people mean by 'Eternal Security' is not about feeling secure, but about the fact of eternal salvation. So I don't know what you are asking, because it sounds like you are asking how one FEELS secure.

The idea of 'works' as evidence is in the Bible, but certainly it is not the only one, and furthermore, that is a subjective judgement for the believer to make. THAT is God's to judge.

But as I expect you are aware, "He walks with me, he talks with me", is simple fact for the believer that walks with God, even if inconsistently (as the believer may judge it) walking with God. Also, "The Spirit witnesses to our spirit that we are the children of God." Also, at least so it seems to me, the way prayers for righteousness, purity, holiness, Godliness, come ripping from of my soul (so it seems —I don't know a better way to describe it—) tell me that it matters to God, concerning me, as much as it does to me. Also, the fact that my desire to see him as he is, and to see his satisfaction with what he has made, far outweighs any other reward or even the feeling of security that I will make it to Heaven, tells me who I belong to.

I think I meant, how one knows he is secure, but I think you answered that by your post. I'm glad I have learned a few more thing were you guys stand.

I listen to the teacher Bill Mounce at the moment. He is a Reformed teacher, even he is not a 5-pointer. I like him a lot, even I don't agree on everything.

It's funny I never thought I'd say it, but I have found one thing I like with Reformed theology :
The call to being faithful.

 

[zoidar]

Does your friend believe in being saved by God’s grace initially and foundationally?
Does he see obedience to God or good works as following after being saved by God’s grace?

That is a good question, I'm not really sure. I have heard him say things like: "I do this to be on the safe side." That doesn't sound very good to me.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

That is a good question, I'm not really sure. I have heard him say things like: "I do this to be on the safe side." That doesn't sound very good to me.

It matters to know because he is either acting solely on works ALONE to save himself (of which the apostle Paul condemned), or he believes the Bible in that it teaches that we are initially and foundationally saved by God’s grace and after that, we enter the Sanctification Process as a part of God’s plan of salvation.

For lets say hypothetically, he does believe in God’s grace, and in confessing sin to be forgiven of sin, he would be correct to do certain good works and or keeping certain commands of God as a part of God’s continued plan of salvation. Why? Because the Bible teaches that. For how do you explain the following points in Scripture?

1. We are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24).
   
   
2. Faith without works is dead (James 2:17).
   
   
3. A person can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16).
   
   
4. Jesus agreed with the lawyer that to love God, and to love your neighbor is a part of inheriting eternal life (Luke 10:25-28).
   
   
5. Those who have done good, shall come forth unto the resurrection of life; and those who have done evil, shall come forth unto the resurrection of damnation (John 5:29).
   
   
6. We have to continue in His goodness, otherwise we can be cut off [just like the Jews were cut off] (Romans 11:21-22).
   
   
7. Helping the poor, and the unfortunate relates to inheriting the Kingdom (Matthew 25:34-40), and not helping the poor, and the unfortunate relates to going away into everlasting punishment (Matthew 25:41-46).
   
   
8. Whoever does not righteousness or does not love his brother is not of God (1 John 3:10).
   
   
9. Whoever does what Jesus says is likened unto a wise man who built his house upon the rock, and when a storm came, it did not fall, (Matthew 7:24-25), but the person who does not do what Jesus says is likened unto a fool who built his house upon the sand, and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house (Matthew 7:26-27).
   
   
10. Abiding in Jesus will bear much fruit, but if a person does not abide in Jesus [thereby being unfruitful], they are cast out [or cut off] like a branch to be burned in the fire (John 15:5-6).
    
    
11. If the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing (1 Peter 4:18-19).
    
    
12. Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14) (NKJV).

For me: I just read and believe these above points in Scripture. Is it not possible that you have simply believed what popular teachers or theologians want you to believe over what the Bible says here? For my eternal soul is at stake. Who am I going to trust? Men? Or God’s Word? For unless I get my hands dirty in doing some Scripture twisting on the above points in Scripture, I cannot in good conscience change the above points in Scripture to my own liking. For after we are saved by God’s grace: We do actually have to do good works and live holy and put away grievous sin out of our lives to enter the kingdom.

This is not solely trying to save yourself by earning your salvation but it is one of debt as Paul says in Romans 4. We receive the gift of salvation by God’s grace, and then we must obey and be in God’s will. For to rebel after we are saved by God’s grace is to only accrue new sin that needs to be cleansed. This is why we must be faithful.

For either one is justifying sin under God’s grace, or one is being obedient to the Lord under God’s grace. There is no in-between position on this.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

@zoidar

Take for example 1 John 3:10.

“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

So if your friend initially accepted God’s grace (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Romans 8:9, Romans 10:13, Luke 15:18-21, Luke 18:9-14, John 1:12) and he continues to trust in that grace (1 John 1:9, 1 John 2:1, Hebrews 4:16, Acts of the Apostles 13:43), AND your friend does righteousness, he is of God according to 1 John 3:10.

To be of God means you are saved. So to do righteousness and or to love your brother (i.e. good works) is a part of salvation. For the alternative choice is to not do righteousness and to not love your brother and thus be a child of the devil. Simple and easy to understand if we just read and believe 1 John 3:10. Only if we accepted a lie from men will we reject such a verse. I choose to side with God’s Word and place my trust in what God actually says and not men.

For shall we continue in sin so that grace may abound? Paul says, God forbid (Romans 6:1-2).

Sin is merely the breaking of the commandment (1 John 3:4).

So if we disobey the commands to preach the gospel, love our brother, love our enemies, love our neighbor (i.e. help the poor), we are in sin or disobedience to God; And there is no such thing as turning God’s grace into a license for immorality according to Jude 1:4.

Many in the Belief Alone camp teach that they are not advocating disobedience because they believe that a genuine believer will obey and do good works, etc. as a part of showing they had been saved PAST tense for all time by God’s grace. But they believe those works and or holy living does not save. This is a cop out in my opinion because it merely is saying that if we fall short in doing any good, we can still be saved. It’s a self refuting system. For if works and holy living were truly the mark of being saved, then they are necessity as a part of our salvation.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I think I meant, how one knows he is secure, but I think you answered that by your post. I'm glad I have learned a few more thing were you guys stand.

I listen to the teacher Bill Mounce at the moment. He is a Reformed teacher, even he is not a 5-pointer. I like him a lot, even I don't agree on everything.

It's funny I never thought I'd say it, but I have found one thing I like with Reformed theology :
The call to being faithful.

The problem I see in Calvinism is that it is forced salvation or determinism. God chooses some to be saved against the free will of a person, and by default He does not choose others to be saved (Even when He had the power to save them). This to me is not the God that I read about in the Bible because God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9). 2 Thessalonians 2:10 says that the reason why those who perish are perishing is because they received not the love of the truth that they MIGHT be saved. There is no might be saved in Calvinism. For me: Calvinism is about as bad as believing in a flat Earth. It’s just simply ridiculous and does not exist with a normal reading of the Bible. The only place that sounds like Calvinism at first glance is Romans 9, but that is only if a person reads it out of context to the chapter and the rest of the Bible.

Calvinism has bled into Non Calvinistic Protestantism in that many accept Total Depravity, and or Perseverance of the Saints (i.e. that true genuine believers will persevere in being saved).

Side Note:

Yes, I listened to some of Mounce when I was new in the faith and he had a couple of insightful things I learned from him. For example: I learned that New Testament essentially means New Covenant from him. But I am glad I got out from listening to popular teachers, and just started to read and study the Word on my own with God’s help. For I had to unlearn certain things taught by popular Christianity that does not exist in a normal reading of the Bible.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I don't disagree with that. Of course we are to live righteously

But if living righteously does not equate with salvation, then living righteously is just optional. But of course many in the Belief Alone camp do not want to let on that they can sin and still be saved and so they have came up with a contradictory statement or belief that says that those who are genuinely saved will produce good works, etc.; But as we know it is more than just doing good works.

In Matthew 7:22-23, we learn that there are believers who did good works in Christ’s name but they were told to depart from Christ because they also worked iniquity (sin), too. So doing good works does not help us if we are also justifying sin in some way. This is how I view Belief Alone-ism because it usually tends to lead to a person thinking they can sin and still be saved on some level. For there are many Christians today who think a believer can commit suicide and be saved. There are many believers who think that a believer can look upon a woman in lust and then immediately get hit by a bus and die unexpectedly (without confessing their sin), and be saved. Most believers I talk with will say that you cannot stop committing serious sin this side of Heaven. So this means that Christians have already set out in their mind to disobey God by this kind of statement. They have already made an excuse to sin. So any statements about living holy and or doing good works does not mean anything. For we cannot do evil and good at the same time with God being okay with that. For Jesus says we cannot serve two masters. For we will hate the one and love the other. Meaning, we will either love sin more than we love God. This perfectly describes the state of the last days today in 2 Timothy 3:1-9.

 

[zoidar]

It matters to know because he is either acting solely on works ALONE to save himself (of which the apostle Paul condemned), or he believes the Bible in that it teaches that we are initially and foundationally saved by God’s grace and after that, we enter the Sanctification Process as a part of God’s plan of salvation.

For lets say hypothetically, he does believe in God’s grace, and in confessing sin to be forgiven of sin, he would be correct to do certain good works and or keeping certain commands of God as a part of God’s continued plan of salvation. Why? Because the Bible teaches that. For how do you explain the following points in Scripture?

1. We are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24).
   
   
2. Faith without works is dead (James 2:17).
   
   
3. A person can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16).
   
   
4. Jesus agreed with the lawyer that to love God, and to love your neighbor is a part of inheriting eternal life (Luke 10:25-28).
   
   
5. Those who have done good, shall come forth unto the resurrection of life; and those who have done evil, shall come forth unto the resurrection of damnation (John 5:29).
   
   
6. We have to continue in His goodness, otherwise we can be cut off [just like the Jews were cut off] (Romans 11:21-22).
   
   
7. Helping the poor, and the unfortunate relates to inheriting the Kingdom (Matthew 25:34-40), and not helping the poor, and the unfortunate relates to going away into everlasting punishment (Matthew 25:41-46).
   
   
8. Whoever does not righteousness or does not love his brother is not of God (1 John 3:10).
   
   
9. Whoever does what Jesus says is likened unto a wise man who built his house upon the rock, and when a storm came, it did not fall, (Matthew 7:24-25), but the person who does not do what Jesus says is likened unto a fool who built his house upon the sand, and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house (Matthew 7:26-27).
   
   
10. Abiding in Jesus will bear much fruit, but if a person does not abide in Jesus [thereby being unfruitful], they are cast out [or cut off] like a branch to be burned in the fire (John 15:5-6).
    
    
11. If the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing (1 Peter 4:18-19).
    
    
12. Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14) (NKJV).

For me: I just read and believe these above points in Scripture. Is it not possible that you have simply believed what popular teachers or theologians want you to believe over what the Bible says here? For my eternal soul is at stake. Who am I going to trust? Men? Or God’s Word? For unless I get my hands dirty in doing some Scripture twisting on the above points in Scripture, I cannot in good conscience change the above points in Scripture to my own liking. For after we are saved by God’s grace: We do actually have to do good works and live holy and put away grievous sin out of our lives to enter the kingdom.

This is not solely trying to save yourself by earning your salvation but it is one of debt as Paul says in Romans 4. We receive the gift of salvation by God’s grace, and then we must obey and be in God’s will. For to rebel after we are saved by God’s grace is to only accrue new sin that needs to be cleansed. This is why we must be faithful.

For either one is justifying sin under God’s grace, or one is being obedient to the Lord under God’s grace. There is no in-between position on this.

Maybe our theological position is less important than that we actually know Christ and live for him. If our theology makes us sit on our bums, then we have a problem, but most (not the very liberal churches) seem to say we have to bear fruit to be saved.

 

[zoidar]

The problem I see in Calvinism is that it is forced salvation or determinism. God chooses some to be saved against the free will of a person, and by default He does not choose others to be saved (Even when He had the power to save them). This to me is not the God that I read about in the Bible because God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9). 2 Thessalonians 2:10 says that the reason why those who perish are perishing is because they received not the love of the truth that they MIGHT be saved. There is no might be saved in Calvinism. For me: Calvinism is about as bad as believing in a flat Earth. It’s just simply ridiculous and does not exist with a normal reading of the Bible. The only place that sounds like Calvinism at first glance is Romans 9, but that is only if a person reads it out of context to the chapter and the rest of the Bible.

Calvinism has bled into Non Calvinistic Protestantism in that many accept Total Depravity, and or Perseverance of the Saints (i.e. that true genuine believers will persevere in being saved).

Side Note:

Yes, I listened to some of Mounce when I was new in the faith and he had a couple of insightful things I learned from him. For example: I learned that New Testament essentially means New Covenant from him. But I am glad I got out from listening to popular teachers, and just started to read and study the Word on my own with God’s help. For I had to unlearn certain things taught by popular Christianity that does not exist in a normal reading of the Bible.

I don't buy all the Reformed ideas, far from. There are a lot to say about it, but I'll leave it for another time and thread.

 

[zoidar]

But if living righteously does not equate with salvation, then living righteously is just optional. But of course many in the Belief Alone camp do not want to let on that they can sin and still be saved and so they have came up with a contradictory statement or belief that says that those who are genuinely saved will produce good works, etc.; But as we know it is more than just doing good works.

In Matthew 7:22-23, we learn that there are believers who did good works in Christ’s name but they were told to depart from Christ because they also worked iniquity (sin), too. So doing good works does not help us if we are also justifying sin in some way. This is how I view Belief Alone-ism because it usually tends to lead to a person thinking they can sin and still be saved on some level. For there are many Christians today who think a believer can commit suicide and be saved. There are many believers who think that a believer can look upon a woman in lust and then immediately get hit by a bus and die unexpectedly (without confessing their sin), and be saved. Most believers I talk with will say that you cannot stop committing serious sin this side of Heaven. So this means that Christians have already set out in their mind to disobey God by this kind of statement. They have already made an excuse to sin. So any statements about living holy and or doing good works does not mean anything. For we cannot do evil and good at the same time with God being okay with that. For Jesus says we cannot serve two masters. For we will hate the one and love the other. Meaning, we will either love sin more than we love God. This perfectly describes the state of the last days today in 2 Timothy 3:1-9.

I don't think those in Matthew 7:22-23 did good works for the Lord. I don't even think they knew him. They thought they did, and thought they did all these works for Him, when in reality their works weren't done in His Spirit.

I don't like to use the word "works". It's better to use the words "obedience" and "disobedience", because it's not about single works, but how we live our life.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I don't think those in Matthew 7:22-23 did good works for the Lord. I don't even think they knew him. They thought they did, and thought they did all these works for Him, when in reality their works weren't done in His Spirit.

Right, I agree we need to know the Lord and allow His good work to work through us. But how do we have an assurance that we know the Lord? 1 John 2:3 says we can have an assurance that we know the Lord by keeping His commandments. 1 John 2:4 says the person who says they know the Lord and they do not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in them. But why did Jesus cast them out? Was it because they did good works? No, not exactly. While it is true that all good works is done by the Lord (John 15:5), Jesus did not say depart from me ye that do good works without me. For in John 14:23 Jesus said, “If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.” So the reason why Jesus said to depart from me was for the reason of what He actually said. Jesus said, “…depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” (Matthew 7:23). Iniquity is sin. So they were believers who justified sin while under God’s grace. So while these believers did good works in His name, they also worked sin or iniquity (Which is why they were condemned).

Now, while it is possible they never actually knew the Lord ever (by the fact they were pretending to accept Jesus or by fact that they accepted another Jesus), there is also another possibility according to Ezekiel 3:20.

“Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.” (Ezekiel 3:20).

Not sure you understood this verse, but it is saying that if a righteous man turns from his righteousness, and commits iniquity (sin), it says all his previous righteousness shall not be remembered. This means that there are no more good deeds for the Lord to remember for a believer if he turns back to their sin. Seeing the Lord associates with those who do righteousness (1 John 2:3) (John 14:23) (1 John 2:29) (1 John 3:7), it only makes sense that if a believer turns back in doing righteousness and commits sin, there is no more righteousness to remember for the Lord and thus He does not know them because God associates or knows a person by their keeping His commandments; For we can have an assurance that we know the Lord by keeping His commands (See again: 1 John 2:3). So in Matthew 7:23, Jesus can say to the believer in whom He might have known once as saying He never knew them because there is no righteousness to remember in their life anymore on account of their sin.

We see in Revelation 2-3 a report card on various churches and we know that select churches were told to repent. One church in particular was told to repent because they lost their first love. They were told to repent and do the first works (Revelation 2:1-7). What first works? To love God and love others (i.e. to love with one’s heart purely when worshiping God, and to love purely when one preaches the gospel, preaches the Word, helps a brother or sister in need financially, or in helping the poor). For if we give our whole bodies to be burned and we have not love, it profits us nothing (1 Corinthians 13:3).

Can you lose your first love and be saved? I don’t think so.
For if we are not loving the Lord we are accursed according to the apostle Paul (See: 1 Corinthians 16:22).

I don't like to use the word "works". It's better to use the words "obedience" and "disobedience", because it's not about single works, but how we live our life.

Works is one part or aspect of the package of our obedience to God. There is putting away sin, and denying ourselves and following the Lord in all things. I like the words “Sanctification by the Spirit” (2 Thessalonians 2:13) because it really gets to the heart of the matter of what needs to happen for a believer after they are saved by God’s grace. God is the One who helps us to live that holy life over time.

But we should not say that we do not like the word “works” because the Bible itself teaches positively about the word “works.”

“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.” (James 2:24).

Do you not like James 2:24 because it uses the word “works” positively in relation to our salvation?
Granted, most in the Belief Alone camp do not believe James 2:24 and they attempt to change this verse to apply to being justified before men only and not before God. But that does not fit the context of what James is talking about.

“My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.” (James 2:1).

“Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.” (James 1:21-22).

“Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.” (James 1:12).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I don't buy all the Reformed ideas, far from. There are a lot to say about it, but I'll leave it for another time and thread.

I don’t know. To me it is pretty bad to teach that God forces some to be saved and by default God forces others to not be saved (with them having no free will choice to change their situation). For me: That is a huge attack upon the good character of God (as revealed in Scripture). So I would prefer not learning from them knowing that fact. They may have some knowledge that may be true, but I would rather learn it from the direct source (Which is directly from God when I read and study Scripture on my own).