Are Christians better people on the inside?

Landon Caeli · Jul 1, 2021

Larnievc said:
Was he a Christian?

...I don't know. I only know he was human, like all of us.

J_B_ · Jul 1, 2021

doubtingmerle said:
If all Christians have this change, and no unbeliever has it, then that makes Christians better morally than others. Are you saying you are better morally than me?

Yes, people change when they become Christian. People change when they decide to go on a diet. Change is part of life. I'm sorry people have told you this change makes them morally superior. That really muddies the waters and does no good.

Justification is something that trips people up all the time, and it was a central sticking point of the Reformation. The Lutheran position (and I am Lutheran) is that you are declared righteous by God. This declaration is like a judge declaring the accused not guilty. A 'not guilty' verdict does not mean the accused is innocent. It simply means the law does not levy punishment.

This justification, then, is an act of God's grace. It has nothing to do with one's morality. Morality is an issue of Sanctification - a completely different topic.

Larniavc · Jul 2, 2021

Landon Caeli said:
...I don't know. I only know he was human, like all of us.

Then I’m not sure your specific point.

doubtingmerle · Jul 2, 2021

Fellow Thinker,

A_Thinker said:
Christians have the same struggles, faults and foibles as non-Christians.

That is quite a contrast from those who tell me that, once a person is "saved" (whatever that means) that she somehow automatically becomes a better person than unbelievers. You see us all as fundamentally the same.

The difference is that christians are in a treatment plan ...

Only Christians? I know a lot of people that are concerned about their personal moral development. It is not something that is exclusively Christian.

I had asked you what treatment plan you were speaking of. You replied with this list:

A_Thinker said:
Admit that we are powerless over the sin that plagues our life.

Come to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to wholeness.

Make a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

Make a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

Admit to God, and to ourselves the exact nature of our wrongs.

Submit to have God remove all these defects of character.

Humbly asked Him to forgive and to remove our shortcomings.

Gather together with fellows in treatment.

Live out our new life direction of truth and love.

Find contentment, not in the attainment of, but in the pursuit of a whole and meaningful life.

The first seven are the same as the first 7 of the AA twelve steps program. (12 Steps) 12 Steps is not exclusively Christian. Let's look at the list.

Admit that we are powerless over the sin that plagues our life.

Weak? Yes.

Powerless? No.

Come to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to wholeness.

I have no evidence for such a Power.

Make a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

If I understand God as just a name for the forces of nature, is that acceptable?

Make a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

Good idea.

Admit to God, and to ourselves the exact nature of our wrongs.

I am fine with admitting the exact nature of my wrongs.

Submit to have God remove all these defects of character.

Are you saying that those who submit to God to remove all these defects of character are morally better than those who use other means to address moral defects? If so, the OP refers to your views.

Humbly asked Him to forgive and to remove our shortcomings.

Are you saying that those who ask Him to remove shortcomings are morally superior to those who use other means to address shortcomings? If so, the OP refers to your views.

Gather together with fellows in treatment.

At a bar, for instance?

Live out our new life direction of truth and love.

Cheers!

Find contentment, not in the attainment of, but in the pursuit of a whole and meaningful life.

I'll drink to that.

doubtingmerle · Jul 3, 2021

Bobber said:
Well if you really believe that would make them better morally than others why would you have claimed a believer is bogged down with moral absolutes as if that'd be a negative thing.

Read the OP. I do not believe that becoming a Christian makes one better morally. So your question is a little odd.

Of course you see the word "bound" as a horror and not something good. Driving you automobile you're bound to keep certain laws, speed limits, safety belts.....

I understand the need for rules. But I also understand that life is full of gray areas and difficult moral decisions.

Life's issues cannot always be resolved with all-or-nothing thinking.

So you're going with a premise that those who have receive the divine nature of God that they look with disdain upon others not Christians.

It is not a premise. I have seen it all over this forum. People claim that "salvation" causes one to do all kinds of good things, and that unbelievers do not have this cause within them. One person wrote, "God is the one doing every good work in [Christians], including every obedience, every repentance. It is 'not I, but Christ in me.'" This is a claim that Christians have something inside them that makes them become better people than others.

So no, it is not just a premise that people are saying this. It is a fact.

Yeah I suppose some religious people like the Pharisees look down condescendingly upon others.....but that doesn't mean its Christians teachings from Jesus to do so. And people are at different levels of spiritual growth. Baby Christians might be prone to make immature assessment and need more spiritual development then they have. Such takes time.

Got it. Only a baby Christian would write to me and claim that the results of salvation makes them better than the unsaved. Good to know.

A mature Christian looks upon themselves as one who just received the grace of God and who and what they are in themselves they're no better than any other human being.

Wait, what? In themselves they are no better than others, but if they are mature in Christ they do become better than unbelievers? Is that what you are saying?

I thought you said only baby Christians said that.

Curious though. Don't you have disdain for the way of thinking others have that you don't agree with?

Sure, I have disdain for the thought process I sometimes see in others.

But as a humanist, I do not disdain the humanity I see in others. I love what it is to be a person.

Describe exactly what is it you think you've found.

Life, love, freedom, happiness, contentment, satisfaction, calm, goodness, purpose, etc.

doubtingmerle · Jul 3, 2021

OldWiseGuy said:
True that some new Christians are like the "reformed drunk" who then judges those who drink, but this fades over time as he or she addresses their own spiritual needs.

Are Christians reformed bad people that live better lives than other unreformed bad people?

I think that what I have found is as good, if not better, at reforming the moral character of a person.

doubtingmerle · Jul 3, 2021

HTacianas said:
I think you need to resolve your own issues before attempting to resolve what you see in others.

Ad hominem.

doubtingmerle · Jul 3, 2021

eleos1954 said:
This is a distorted picture of God. God is love.

Got it. There are people on this forum trying to convince me that I am a bad person because I might have an angry thought about somebody or might covet something I see. And you tell me those people have a distorted picture of God? So God is not actually examining all our thoughts and feelings, and is not judging us if we feel lust or envy?

OK, when Christians tell me that, I will tell them you say they have a distorted picture of God.

God knows our fallen condition .... when once accepts Christ He sends the Holy Spirit to help us overcome sin (changes our thinking) over the course of our lifetime here on earth. As He works in the believer His law becomes a delight.

Which brings us to the OP. Does accepting Christ do a better job of helping one overcome bad thinking patterns than using other means of help?

I think the book "Feeling Good" by David Burns has an excellent plan on overcoming bad thinking patterns. Are you saying your way is better?

doubtingmerle · Jul 3, 2021

Petros2015 said:
One could argue that the healthy Christian found a Way to moral success

One could also argue that the healthy Humanist has found a way to moral success.

The question before us is not whether you found a way. The question is whether your way is better.

There is the view of God the judge - who will punish for being out of line with holiness and perfection - his standards are dimensionally above us, where we think in planes, he thinks in cubes (possibly hyper-cubes).

The view of God as judge is all over this forum. So those who say this are not expressing a good view?

At the same time, we aren't meant to think of Him in this way any longer, if we accept and follow the King's Son.

If we accept and follow him? Even when he says to give to everyone that asks of you? Do we then need to give everybody everything they ask of us?

The things that we feel are 'punishment worthy' are also pain causing. Lust, Wraith, Resentment, Pride, Envy etc - the view of God the Father is meant to switch. It's not "don't do these things because if you do my holiness will be offended and I will damn you". It's "follow my Son away from these things, because they will harm you and others, and I love you. Follow him back to Heaven, and to Me"

Got it. One proposed way to freedom from a life overcome with lust, wrath, and resentment is to follow the Son.

Others have proposed other ways. The question before us is whether your way works better.

following Christ is meant to be a path of transformation, not a membership card in the wallet. If it's not transforming, then we are not doing it right, or we have misunderstood why, what and how we are meant to do what we are doing, or who is teaching us.

Is the transformation you received using your method better than the transformation I received using mine?

A_Thinker · Jul 3, 2021

doubtingmerle said:
The first seven are the same as the first 7 of the AA twelve steps program.

AA is based on a Christian value system ...

eleos1954 · Jul 3, 2021

doubtingmerle said:
Got it. There are people on this forum trying to convince me that I am a bad person because I might have an angry thought about somebody or might covet something I see. And you tell me those people have a distorted picture of God? So God is not actually examining all our thoughts and feelings, and is not judging us if we feel lust or envy?

OK, when Christians tell me that, I will tell them you say they have a distorted picture of God.

Which brings us to the OP. Does accepting Christ do a better job of helping one overcome bad thinking patterns than using other means of help?

I think the book "Feeling Good" by David Burns has an excellent plan on overcoming bad thinking patterns. Are you saying your way is better?

When one sincerely accepts Jesus into their heart .... their thinking will indeed change ... not instantly .... one is then drawn to reading and studying His Word and understanding His teaching and precepts (really getting to know God's true character). This continues throughout our earthly lifetime ... it is the way to life.

"David Burns" (not familiar with him) can not give you eternal life.

Petros2015 · Jul 3, 2021

doubtingmerle said:
Is the transformation you received using your method better than the transformation I received using mine?

Hmm... When I consult the manual for my 'method', it says this:

Matt 7

1“Do not judge, or you will be judged. 2 For with the same judgment you pronounce, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

And this...

Rom 10

6 But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 or, ‘Who will descend into the Abyss?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).”

....to answer your question
....wouldn't we need an unbiased 3rd party who knew us both impossibly well before and after and judged by a standard we all agreed upon? (the Truth)

In the interest of following my method of transformation...
I'm going to have to decline to answer your question!

Be patient!
I'm no true judge.
I've been told both directly and indirectly I'm not qualified.
I know as little of you and your life as you know of mine.
A true judge will be along shortly.

John 14:6 “I am the way, and the truth, and the life"
John 5:22 Furthermore, the Father judges no one, but has assigned all judgment to the Son

And, we'll see how it goes...

doubtingmerle · Jul 3, 2021

Petros2015, thank you for your response to the question, "Is the transformation you received using your method better than the transformation I received using mine?". That question basically sums up the purpose of this thread. You respond to that question saying:

Petros2015 said:
Hmm... When I consult the manual for my 'method', it says this:

Matt 7

1“Do not judge, or you will be judged. 2 For with the same judgment you pronounce, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

Ah, so nobody can judge whether Christianity works better at producing moral character than Humanism does.

....to answer your question
....wouldn't we need an unbiased 3rd party who knew us both impossibly well before and after and judged by a standard we all agreed upon? (the Truth)

No.

I think it is possible to find out which methods work best without needing to know everything perfectly well.

In the interest of following my method of transformation...
I'm going to have to decline to answer your question!

No problem.

But this thread is still available for anybody who wants to address the question.

Be patient!
I'm no true judge.

Got it. You are not qualified to answer the question of this thread.

I've been told both directly and indirectly I'm not qualified.

Got it. Not qualified.

I know as little of you and your life as you know of mine.

Got it. This thread happens to be one that asks a question you cannot answer.

OldWiseGuy · Jul 3, 2021

doubtingmerle said:
Are Christians reformed bad people that live better lives than other unreformed bad people?

I think that what I have found is as good, if not better, at reforming the moral character of a person.

Based on the definition of Humanism I have some problems with it.

humanism
[ˈ(h)yo͞oməˌnizəm]
NOUN

an outlook or system of thought attaching prime importance to human rather than divine or supernatural matters. Humanist beliefs stress the potential value and goodness of human beings, emphasize common human needs, and seek solely rational ways of solving human problems.

Humanism seems to be saying that the commandments (five through ten) are an irrational way of solving human problems.

Regarding the potential value and goodness of people would you concede that someone who has reached that potential is a better person than one who has not?

Bobber · Jul 3, 2021

doubtingmerle said:
I understand the need for rules. But I also understand that life is full of gray areas and difficult moral decisions.

Interesting. You say you see a need for rules. I was talking to you about traffic rules for drivers and things. I ask you this then. In your keeping them does that mean you're thinking of yourself a better person than others who don't? It seems your position later on in your posts is that NOBODY should ever consider themselves as you said 'BETTER' than others. You condemn that. So how is it that you can claim you're immune from doing that yourself? Are you not better than someone driving way, way beyond the speed limit in a residential zone? Wouldn't you be saying they're not very nice to be doing that? And please Doubtingmerle don't play a game with me suggesting they might be going to the hospital. You KNOW what I mean.

One person wrote, "God is the one doing every good work in [Christians], including every obedience, every repentance. It is 'not I, but Christ in me.'" This is a claim that Christians have something inside them that makes them become better people than others.

Such a statement would come from a Calvinistic thinker most Christians don't believe God does the actual repenting for them but that's another subject. Won't get into that here. But that OK a person choosing to repent and yes becoming a partaker of the divine nature, one who can now allow God's life and love to flow through them....well that would make them elevated in nature above others.....in other words better. Well there can be a knowing that would be true. Does that mean the one makes declaration of such which would mean they're arrogant? Are you saying if such things were true that every aspect of that should be absolutely denied.

eg. A Hockey player....let's say best in the world like a Wayne Gretsky in his time. They called him the Great One. Scoring stats higher then anyone in the league. Question to Wayne: "Your record shows you are or were the best player in the league. None better! What do you say?" So if he says YES you'd call him arrogant? Thing is though he probably wouldn't answer like that. He'd probably say he had a lot of other things going for him too like having a good team with good players or that he was maybe more fortunate then he deserved.

Point is he would not be into self-exaltation. And as for a Christian who could be called better they had a lot going for them too so no need to be too boastful. While they choose the receive God's grace it was all God's power and mercy that began to transform them. And seeing that same offer is made to every member of humanity the only thing the sinner needs to do is say YES to God. One thing can't be denied though and I won't seek to deny it. God the Father and Christ....they someday WILL categorize individuals' good, bad, or if you want to say better than others then yes, Jesus said,

Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. Matt 13:47

I get it. You don't want people ever to be categorized this way. Don't matter though. God will and he'll be the judge of those matters. What is going to happen will happen and I'd kindly suggest you'll find it better not be on the side opposed to God.

OldWiseGuy · Jul 3, 2021

"Some people are just...no good." -Garrison Keillor

doubtingmerle · Jul 3, 2021

OldWiseGuy said:
"Some people are just...no good." -Garrison Keillor

Garrison Keillor also talked about all men being above average, so I guess we are all above average, huh?

OldWiseGuy · Jul 3, 2021

doubtingmerle said:
Garrison Keillor also talked about all men being above average, so I guess we are all above average, huh?

He was referring to the folks in Lake Wobegone.

Garrison Keillor's The News From Lake Wobegon - Bing video

doubtingmerle · Jul 3, 2021

eleos1954 said:
"David Burns" (not familiar with him) can not give you eternal life.

Why the scare quotes?

Correct. David D. Burns, MD. did not claim to give eternal life. He claimed to give advice on how to live a good life. I think he does that quite well.

OldWiseGuy · Jul 3, 2021

doubtingmerle said:
Why the scare quotes?

Correct. David D. Burns, MD. did not claim to give eternal life. He claimed to give advice on how to live a good life. I think he does that quite well.

If so, more people should read him. Lots of misery out there.

Are Christians better people on the inside?

God is perfect - Nothing is an accident

I have answers to questions no one ever asks.

Leading a blameless life

I'll think about it.

I'll think about it.

I'll think about it.

I'll think about it.

I'll think about it.

I'll think about it.

Well-Known Member

God is Love

Well-Known Member

I'll think about it.

Wake me when it's soup.

Well-Known Member

Wake me when it's soup.

I'll think about it.

Wake me when it's soup.

I'll think about it.

Wake me when it's soup.

Similar threads