Are Christians better people on the inside?

[doubtingmerle]

In another thread we are discussing the requirements to go to heaven. Several people have emphasized that yes, Christians must live moral lives if they expect to go to heaven, but that is not a problem for them. I am told that those who have become Christians just naturally become good people and naturally do the right thing. So there is no need to ask them what they need to do. They are Christians, and so they just naturally do the right thing. It's not a problem.

On the other hand, I am told us unbelievers are inherently evil, have a fallen nature, and are filled with vile thoughts and emotions.

I find this caricature of people to be quite misleading. We are all humans. We all experience the gamut of emotions, the anger, the joy, the fear, the love, the jealousy, the compassion, the lust, the respect, the hurt, the hope, and the confusion. All of us. And when one group claims that their inner person is better than other people, I think they are mistaken.

When I look at the outward goodness of people, I see nothing within Christians that makes them significantly better. In fact, I would think the opposite.

I have experienced both worlds. I was a Christian for many years. But I found myself bound by the thought of a God who knew and judged my every feeling of anger, jealousy, lust, or pride. And it became my duty to clean up every corner of my mind, and never to experience those feelings in God's presence. It was like trying to stop thinking about white bears. The harder I tried, the stronger those feelings became. Since abandoning the faith, I no longer see my inner self as an evil that needs to be put down. Rather I am what I am. And I am able to freely observe what goes on inside, and channel my thoughts in healthy ways.

Life is gray. And it is fine to live in that grayness, seeing multiple viewpoints and ways to deal with problems.

By contrast, the rigid laws of the Bible can be unhealthy. They distract from the reality of moral decisions.

I think it is best to see that we are the products of evolution. This process has made us such that our entire survival depends on cooperation with others. Obtaining that cooperation means channeling through some rough waters with a range of emotions, a range of different situations, and a range of advice. Evolution has designed us to chart the course in ways that cooperate with others.

The healthy person sees the totality of what he is up against, and finds a way to moral success. The unhealthy person is bogged down with fixed moral absolutes, with disdain for one's own inner self, and with disdain for the inner selves of others. I choose instead the way to emotional health, the way that is free.

 

[Hazelelponi]

After I was saved I changed, many changes were pretty major and very immediate. But like every Christian I still have trials and temptations which I must work to overcome. I'm not so perfect that I don't need a nudge in the right direction or even that I have perfect understanding of everything.

We are still human beings and while through the power of the Holy Spirit we can recognize our failings, it doesn't mean we won't occasionally trip. It's the getting back up again that counts.

Also it must be noted that not everyone who believes themselves to be Christian really is, or that there isn't some serious backsliding going on in some. We may not always be faithful - but God always is and He gives us time, chances, and warning to correct ourselves.

What I will say is that I find this path to be most free, far more free than a life without God.

 

[A_Thinker]

In another thread we are discussing the requirements to go to heaven. Several people have emphasized that yes, Christians must live moral lives if they expect to go to heaven, but that is not a problem for them. I am told that those who have become Christians just naturally become good people and naturally do the right thing. So there is no need to ask them what they need to do. They are Christians, and so they just naturally do the right thing. It's not a problem.

On the other hand, I am told us unbelievers are inherently evil, have a fallen nature, and are filled with vile thoughts and emotions.

I find this caricature of people to be quite misleading. We are all humans. We all experience the gamut of emotions, the anger, the joy, the fear, the love, the jealousy, the compassion, the lust, the respect, the hurt, the hope, and the confusion. All of us. And when one group claims that their inner person is better than other people, I think they are mistaken.

When I look at the outward goodness of people, I see nothing within Christians that makes them significantly better. In fact, I would think the opposite.

Christians have the same struggles, faults and foibles as non-Christians.

The difference is that christians are in a treatment plan ...

 

[doubtingmerle]

After I was saved I changed, many changes were pretty major and very immediate.

If all Christians have this change, and no unbeliever has it, then that makes Christians better morally than others. Are you saying you are better morally than me?

But like every Christian I still have trials and temptations which I must work to overcome. I'm not so perfect that I don't need a nudge in the right direction or even that I have perfect understanding of everything.

So those who are telling me that Christians just do the moral thing are not telling me the truth?

Since "getting saved" does not make you automatically do the right things, then it is an appropriate question to ask what happens if Christians do not do the right things. Do they go to hell?

Also it must be noted that not everyone who believes themselves to be Christian really is

Ah, no true Scotsman would...

What I will say is that I find this path to be most free, far more free than a life without God.

I do not see how a life bound by rigid moral absolutes, disdain for the inner feeling of one's self, and disdain for the fallen nature of others is more free than that the life that I have found.

 

[doubtingmerle]

The difference is that christians are in a treatment plan ...

I see. And what is that treatment plan?

 

[A_Thinker]

I see. And what is that treatment plan?

Step 1 ... You have to recognize that you have a problem.

 

[Ophiolite]

Step 1 ... You have to recognize that you have a problem.

@doubtingmerle has made it very clear that he recognises his problem and that it is the same problem faced by all of humanity. So, no distinction there. What's the second step?

Edit: And I think I am correct in saying that merle recognises it his problem, not some ancient sin committed by an alleged remote ancestor. That seems a more honest and wholesome position.

 

[A_Thinker]

@doubtingmerle has made it very clear that he recognises his problem and that it is the same problem faced by all of humanity. So, no distinction there. What's the second step?

Edit: And I think I am correct in saying that merle recognises it his problem, not some ancient sin committed by an alleged remote ancestor. That seems a more honest and wholesome position.

1. Admit that we are powerless over the sin that plagues our life.
2. Come to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to wholeness.
3. Make a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
4. Make a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admit to God, and to ourselves the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Submit to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to forgive and to remove our shortcomings.
8. Gather together with fellows in treatment.
9. Live out our new life direction of truth and love.
10. Find contentment, not in the attainment of, but in the pursuit of a whole and meaningful life.

 

[Landon Caeli]

In another thread we are discussing the requirements to go to heaven. Several people have emphasized that yes, Christians must live moral lives if they expect to go to heaven, but that is not a problem for them. I am told that those who have become Christians just naturally become good people and naturally do the right thing. So there is no need to ask them what they need to do. They are Christians, and so they just naturally do the right thing. It's not a problem.

On the other hand, I am told us unbelievers are inherently evil, have a fallen nature, and are filled with vile thoughts and emotions.

I find this caricature of people to be quite misleading. We are all humans. We all experience the gamut of emotions, the anger, the joy, the fear, the love, the jealousy, the compassion, the lust, the respect, the hurt, the hope, and the confusion. All of us. And when one group claims that their inner person is better than other people, I think they are mistaken.

When I look at the outward goodness of people, I see nothing within Christians that makes them significantly better. In fact, I would think the opposite.

I have experienced both worlds. I was a Christian for many years. But I found myself bound by the thought of a God who knew and judged my every feeling of anger, jealousy, lust, or pride. And it became my duty to clean up every corner of my mind, and never to experience those feelings in God's presence. It was like trying to stop thinking about white bears. The harder I tried, the stronger those feelings became. Since abandoning the faith, I no longer see my inner self as an evil that needs to be put down. Rather I am what I am. And I am able to freely observe what goes on inside, and channel my thoughts in healthy ways.

Life is gray. And it is fine to live in that grayness, seeing multiple viewpoints and ways to deal with problems.

By contrast, the rigid laws of the Bible can be unhealthy. They distract from the reality of moral decisions.

I think it is best to see that we are the products of evolution. This process has made us such that our entire survival depends on cooperation with others. Obtaining that cooperation means channeling through some rough waters with a range of emotions, a range of different situations, and a range of advice. Evolution has designed us to chart the course in ways that cooperate with others.

The healthy person sees the totality of what he is up against, and finds a way to moral success. The unhealthy person is bogged down with fixed moral absolutes, with disdain for one's own inner self, and with disdain for the inner selves of others. I choose instead the way to emotional health, the way that is free.

I've met some atheists who are far more moral than some of the best Christians.

 

[Larniavc]

I’ve been told time and again that the only thing that stops people going out and doing loads of tapes and murders is God, because without God there is no reason not to.

So when I meet a Christian I’m always wondering if they are a would be murder rapist kept in check by fear of Hell or just a good person.

With an atheist I know that their behaviour will reflect their character because if they are NOT murder raping me in spite of not worrying about what God might think I far more confident in their safety.

After all, a murder rapist held in check by God Will become a real danger if they lose their faith at some point.

Ticking time bombs.

 

[Ophiolite]

1. Admit that we are powerless over the sin that plagues our life.
2. Come to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to wholeness.
3. Make a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
4. Make a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admit to God, and to ourselves the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Submit to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to forgive and to remove our shortcomings.
8. Gather together with fellows in treatment.
9. Live out our new life direction of truth and love.
10. Find contentment, not in the attainment of, but in the pursuit of a whole and meaningful life.

Thank you for taking the time to set out the various steps in a clear and concise way. I find several of the steps resonate with me, being akin to my own approach. Unfortunately, (or not, depending upon POV), I find myself in total disagreement with the first statement.

As an individual, as a family member, as an associate of friends and colleagues, as part of a community, as a beneficiary of a culture, as an instance of homo sapiens, as a role player in the rich diversity of the biosphere, I am equipped to recognise my failings and to strive to overcome them, and thereby to return a small measure of support and nourishment to all those elements that have supported and noursihed my efforts.

From my perspective all you have done is to transfer the source of the support and nourishment from friends, community, culture and environment to an imagined deity. You consider that though you are powerless to overcome 'sin', God will guide you. I consider that I have the power to overcome 'sin' by interacting with those around me, whether they be family or the wind in the trees.

 

[Bobber]

If all Christians have this change, and no unbeliever has it, then that makes Christians better morally than others.

Well if you really believe that would make them better morally than others why would you have claimed a believer is bogged down with moral absolutes as if that'd be a negative thing.

I do not see how a life bound by rigid moral absolutes,

Of course you see the word "bound" as a horror and not something good. Driving you automobile you're bound to keep certain laws, speed limits, safety belts.....

Yes some people just don't like that and want NO restrictions. That's freedom to them. Is it really freedom though? Or rather foolishness?

....and disdain for the fallen nature of others is more free than that the life that I have found.

So you're going with a premise that those who have receive the divine nature of God that they look with disdain upon others not Christians. Yeah I suppose some religious people like the Pharisees look down condescendingly upon others.....but that doesn't mean its Christians teachings from Jesus to do so. And people are at different levels of spiritual growth. Baby Christians might be prone to make immature assessment and need more spiritual development then they have. Such takes time. A mature Christian looks upon themselves as one who just received the grace of God and who and what they are in themselves they're no better than any other human being.

....and disdain for the fallen nature of others is more free than that the life that I have found.

Curious though. Don't you have disdain for the way of thinking others have that you don't agree with? Describe exactly what is it you think you've found.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

If all Christians have this change, and no unbeliever has it, then that makes Christians better morally than others. Are you saying you are better morally than me?

So those who are telling me that Christians just do the moral thing are not telling me the truth?

Since "getting saved" does not make you automatically do the right things, then it is an appropriate question to ask what happens if Christians do not do the right things. Do they go to hell?


Ah, no true Scotsman would...

I do not see how a life bound by rigid moral absolutes, disdain for the inner feeling of one's self, and disdain for the fallen nature of others is more free than that the life that I have found.

True that some new Christians are like the "reformed drunk" who then judges those who drink, but this fades over time as he or she addresses their own spiritual needs. God is as interested in our building faith over time as changing our attitudes and behaviors. The biggest difference between believers and unbelievers is...belief. Discussions about behavior is a sideshow. Even Paul was humbled by his own moral failings, and so cast himself upon God's grace.

 

[HTacianas]

In another thread we are discussing the requirements to go to heaven. Several people have emphasized that yes, Christians must live moral lives if they expect to go to heaven, but that is not a problem for them. I am told that those who have become Christians just naturally become good people and naturally do the right thing. So there is no need to ask them what they need to do. They are Christians, and so they just naturally do the right thing. It's not a problem.

On the other hand, I am told us unbelievers are inherently evil, have a fallen nature, and are filled with vile thoughts and emotions.

I find this caricature of people to be quite misleading. We are all humans. We all experience the gamut of emotions, the anger, the joy, the fear, the love, the jealousy, the compassion, the lust, the respect, the hurt, the hope, and the confusion. All of us. And when one group claims that their inner person is better than other people, I think they are mistaken.

When I look at the outward goodness of people, I see nothing within Christians that makes them significantly better. In fact, I would think the opposite.

I have experienced both worlds. I was a Christian for many years. But I found myself bound by the thought of a God who knew and judged my every feeling of anger, jealousy, lust, or pride. And it became my duty to clean up every corner of my mind, and never to experience those feelings in God's presence. It was like trying to stop thinking about white bears. The harder I tried, the stronger those feelings became. Since abandoning the faith, I no longer see my inner self as an evil that needs to be put down. Rather I am what I am. And I am able to freely observe what goes on inside, and channel my thoughts in healthy ways.

Life is gray. And it is fine to live in that grayness, seeing multiple viewpoints and ways to deal with problems.

By contrast, the rigid laws of the Bible can be unhealthy. They distract from the reality of moral decisions.

I think it is best to see that we are the products of evolution. This process has made us such that our entire survival depends on cooperation with others. Obtaining that cooperation means channeling through some rough waters with a range of emotions, a range of different situations, and a range of advice. Evolution has designed us to chart the course in ways that cooperate with others.

The healthy person sees the totality of what he is up against, and finds a way to moral success. The unhealthy person is bogged down with fixed moral absolutes, with disdain for one's own inner self, and with disdain for the inner selves of others. I choose instead the way to emotional health, the way that is free.

You give me the idea that you've become that thing you hate. You create all these fallacies to apparently joust against, then after having done it, become your own enemy. You describe yourself as "healthy" and Christians as "unhealthy".

I think you need to resolve your own issues before attempting to resolve what you see in others.

 

[eleos1954]

In another thread we are discussing the requirements to go to heaven. Several people have emphasized that yes, Christians must live moral lives if they expect to go to heaven, but that is not a problem for them. I am told that those who have become Christians just naturally become good people and naturally do the right thing. So there is no need to ask them what they need to do. They are Christians, and so they just naturally do the right thing. It's not a problem.

On the other hand, I am told us unbelievers are inherently evil, have a fallen nature, and are filled with vile thoughts and emotions.

I find this caricature of people to be quite misleading. We are all humans. We all experience the gamut of emotions, the anger, the joy, the fear, the love, the jealousy, the compassion, the lust, the respect, the hurt, the hope, and the confusion. All of us. And when one group claims that their inner person is better than other people, I think they are mistaken.

When I look at the outward goodness of people, I see nothing within Christians that makes them significantly better. In fact, I would think the opposite.

I have experienced both worlds. I was a Christian for many years. But I found myself bound by the thought of a God who knew and judged my every feeling of anger, jealousy, lust, or pride. And it became my duty to clean up every corner of my mind, and never to experience those feelings in God's presence. It was like trying to stop thinking about white bears. The harder I tried, the stronger those feelings became. Since abandoning the faith, I no longer see my inner self as an evil that needs to be put down. Rather I am what I am. And I am able to freely observe what goes on inside, and channel my thoughts in healthy ways.

Life is gray. And it is fine to live in that grayness, seeing multiple viewpoints and ways to deal with problems.

By contrast, the rigid laws of the Bible can be unhealthy. They distract from the reality of moral decisions.

I think it is best to see that we are the products of evolution. This process has made us such that our entire survival depends on cooperation with others. Obtaining that cooperation means channeling through some rough waters with a range of emotions, a range of different situations, and a range of advice. Evolution has designed us to chart the course in ways that cooperate with others.

The healthy person sees the totality of what he is up against, and finds a way to moral success. The unhealthy person is bogged down with fixed moral absolutes, with disdain for one's own inner self, and with disdain for the inner selves of others. I choose instead the way to emotional health, the way that is free.

But I found myself bound by the thought of a God who knew and judged my every feeling of anger, jealousy, lust, or pride.

This is a distorted picture of God. God is love. God knows our fallen condition .... when once accepts Christ He sends the Holy Spirit to help us overcome sin (changes our thinking) over the course of our lifetime here on earth. As He works in the believer His law becomes a delight.

Matthew 11:28-30

28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

The devil is the accuser ... and thereby puts distorted (thinking/ideas) in our heads about God's true character (has been doing this since before the fall of mankind)

Listen to God and not the adversary.

 

[Landon Caeli]

I’ve been told time and again that the only thing that stops people going out and doing loads of tapes and murders is God, because without God there is no reason not to.

So when I meet a Christian I’m always wondering if they are a would be murder rapist kept in check by fear of Hell or just a good person.

With an atheist I know that their behaviour will reflect their character because if they are NOT murder raping me in spite of not worrying about what God might think I far more confident in their safety.

After all, a murder rapist held in check by God Will become a real danger if they lose their faith at some point.

Ticking time bombs.

I think a ticking time bomb is a ticking time bomb, based on the wiring of an individuals brain... Reminds me of the story of Charles Whitman, a loving man, who documented some strange inclinations he was experiencing in a diary, before killing his wife and mother, and then climbing a tower and going on a shooting spree, killing 13 people.

...Turned out he had a pecan sized tumor in his frontal cortex, that would likely cause a person to do some outrageous things like he did... He wasn't evil... His brain was damaged.

Charles Whitman - Wikipedia

 

[Petros2015]

The healthy person sees the totality of what he is up against, and finds a way to moral success.

One could argue that the healthy Christian found a Way to moral success
(they just gave up on finding it themselves and the Way wasn't their own, it came to them and said "follow Me")

I have experienced both worlds. I was a Christian for many years. But I found myself bound by the thought of a God who knew and judged my every feeling of anger, jealousy, lust, or pride. And it became my duty to clean up every corner of my mind, and never to experience those feelings in God's presence.

I would say 1st - I agree with pretty much all the points in your original post, and they are things which have alternately troubled and discouraged me nearly to the point of leaving the faith. Both within myself and in others. But I think for me it comes down to a misunderstanding of perspective. There is the view of God the judge - who will punish for being out of line with holiness and perfection - his standards are dimensionally above us, where we think in planes, he thinks in cubes (possibly hyper-cubes). Because we are planes (or maybe even lines) in comparison. But his Son was reconciliation with this. At the same time, we aren't meant to think of Him in this way any longer, if we accept and follow the King's Son.

The things that we feel are 'punishment worthy' are also pain causing. Lust, Wraith, Resentment, Pride, Envy etc - the view of God the Father is meant to switch. It's not "don't do these things because if you do my holiness will be offended and I will damn you". It's "follow my Son away from these things, because they will harm you and others, and I love you. Follow him back to Heaven, and to Me"

Sometimes I think all the soul (or perhaps even God, that piece of God which is within the soul of every man, for we are all made in His image) wants to say is "Please don't do that to me again"

Christ is meant to be all of peace offering, sacrifice and path and Lord, leading the former rebels home, those who are called along a path they could never find, paying for their amnesty a debt they could not pay. This is the ideal; He KNOWS we are still human. It's OK. Our humanness is forgiven, but following Christ is meant to be a path of transformation, not a membership card in the wallet. If it's not transforming, then we are not doing it right, or we have misunderstood why, what and how we are meant to do what we are doing, or who is teaching us.

 

[Larniavc]

I think a ticking time bomb is a ticking time bomb, based on the wiring of an individuals brain... Reminds me of the story of Charles Whitman, a loving man, who documented some strange inclinations he was experiencing in a diary, before killing his wife and mother, and then climbing a tower and going on a shooting spree, killing 13 people.

...Turned out he had a pecan sized tumor in his frontal cortex, that would likely cause a person to do some outrageous things like he did... He wasn't evil... His brain was damaged.

Charles Whitman - Wikipedia

Was he a Christian?

 

[Mark Quayle]

@doubtingmerle has made it very clear that he recognises his problem and that it is the same problem faced by all of humanity. So, no distinction there. What's the second step?

Edit: And I think I am correct in saying that merle recognises it his problem, not some ancient sin committed by an alleged remote ancestor. That seems a more honest and wholesome position.

You and Merle both have a point, that is overwhelmingly missed by Christendom in general. But Merle and you, and probably most Christians, concern yourselves (themselves) with the surface —deeds, life, attitudes and demeanor, peace of mind, results, conscience, etc— and miss the point that is right there in the doctrine of Original Sin. We love to blame Adam, Satan —I've even tried blaming God (why have you made me thus? (Romans 9))— so, yes, while it is important to acknowledge one's own failings and one's own responsibility, the core issue of what the problem is, gets overlooked. Merle goes to some trouble to tell us what some Christians have told him. He then seems to use them as the example of what Christianity, or even the Bible, teaches, when in fact that is not what the Bible teaches.

Look at the issue that Calvinists call "Total Depravity". In spite of having it explained many times to him, Merle talks as though Christianity teaches that Christians are 'better than' non-Christians. That isn't at all the point of the Gospel. On the surface, the unregenerate may be more honest, more consistent, more self-less, more sound-of-mind, more happy, more satisfied with life, even more pious, and even more prone to altruism. But in spite of the unregenerate's best efforts, every thing he does, is at the core, rotten. He is self-dependent, opposed to God and unable to submit to God's law. Many an unregenerate 'Christian' thinks himself to be submitting by his attendance to the rules, his conscience 'now defending, now convicting' him. But that isn't what God calls obedience. Those like Merle, who don't claim to be Christians, may have more ease of mind because they are no longer pretending, straining after gnats. And good for him, there. But that is not where the measurement is taken. God looks on the heart. And while it is good for a man to look on his own heart, we are unable to see the depth of what God knows about each of us. The Gospel has God changing the core with new life.

More below

In another thread we are discussing the requirements to go to heaven. Several people have emphasized that yes, Christians must live moral lives if they expect to go to heaven, but that is not a problem for them. I am told that those who have become Christians just naturally become good people and naturally do the right thing. So there is no need to ask them what they need to do. They are Christians, and so they just naturally do the right thing. It's not a problem.

On the other hand, I am told us unbelievers are inherently evil, have a fallen nature, and are filled with vile thoughts and emotions.

I find this caricature of people to be quite misleading. We are all humans. We all experience the gamut of emotions, the anger, the joy, the fear, the love, the jealousy, the compassion, the lust, the respect, the hurt, the hope, and the confusion. All of us. And when one group claims that their inner person is better than other people, I think they are mistaken.

When I look at the outward goodness of people, I see nothing within Christians that makes them significantly better. In fact, I would think the opposite.

I have experienced both worlds. I was a Christian for many years. But I found myself bound by the thought of a God who knew and judged my every feeling of anger, jealousy, lust, or pride. And it became my duty to clean up every corner of my mind, and never to experience those feelings in God's presence. It was like trying to stop thinking about white bears. The harder I tried, the stronger those feelings became. Since abandoning the faith, I no longer see my inner self as an evil that needs to be put down. Rather I am what I am. And I am able to freely observe what goes on inside, and channel my thoughts in healthy ways.

Life is gray. And it is fine to live in that grayness, seeing multiple viewpoints and ways to deal with problems.

By contrast, the rigid laws of the Bible can be unhealthy. They distract from the reality of moral decisions.

I think it is best to see that we are the products of evolution. This process has made us such that our entire survival depends on cooperation with others. Obtaining that cooperation means channeling through some rough waters with a range of emotions, a range of different situations, and a range of advice. Evolution has designed us to chart the course in ways that cooperate with others.

The healthy person sees the totality of what he is up against, and finds a way to moral success. The unhealthy person is bogged down with fixed moral absolutes, with disdain for one's own inner self, and with disdain for the inner selves of others. I choose instead the way to emotional health, the way that is free.

Merle, you continue to assume 'requirements to go to Heaven', ignoring the obvious Biblical fact that God made a way through the sacrifice of Christ, since the requirements are too heavy for us to live. You use unsatisfactory answers (and results) to your false construction as proof that Christianity doesn't make as much sense as atheism, or at least, your brand of atheism.

Please read my response to Ophiolite, above your quoted OP here, concerning your remarks to the 'preferable' life of the unbeliever vs the believer's frustrated and arrogant life.

First, in answer to you on the matter, I could spend some time on the principle that Christ gives with "The physician did not come to heal the healthy, but the sick." but you should already have some decent understanding of that. It will probably sound like an excuse to you anyway, so I will leave it at that.

Second, your description in your first two paragraphs (whether it is true that people have told you this or not) is full of what the Bible does not teach. So it is not quite valid to argue from them that unbelief is better than belief. But perhaps all you mean is that unbelief is better than false belief.

They say "...they just naturally do the right thing? ..it is not a problem for them??? Wow. As if!! Being born again does fundamentally change a person, and that will show on the exterior, but the judgement by even the changed person is not valid, compared to God's judgement, though they are told to examine themselves to see if they are in the faith. The Bible uses that very term, "natural", to describe the unregenerate and 'the old man' within the regenerated person, and not to describe the born-again heart/mind.

I can understand better than you think I can know about seeing yourself bound "by the thought of a God who knew and judged my every feeling of anger, jealousy, lust, or pride." And I understand the feeling of overwhelming moral duty, but to say that you must "clean up every corner of my mind, and never to experience those feelings in God's presence." is also not what the Bible teaches. "He deals with you where you are at" can be a false proposition, but there is much truth to it. Specially when we already know we are in his presence at all times, and there is no hiding our real selves from him. After all, "He knows our frame, he knows we are but dust."

I like what you said, "It was like trying to stop thinking about white bears. The harder I tried, the stronger those feelings became." Romans also deals with this in regard to the law —those ignorant of the law find no sin in themselves, but because of the law sin 'springs to life' and overwhelms one. (my grossly inaccurate paraphrase)

But then you post your alternative, that you gave that up (and well you should, because it was unBiblical). But you fail to draw the alternative, the truth from the Bible. In other words, your experience of Christianity is not what the Bible teaches.

The rest of what you say is related enough to require no more comment than what I've already said, I guess, but I felt like hitting every point. I will repeat however, that you lay the examples you talk about, and your experiences, as Christianity, and only present abandonment of them as the only worthy alternative. That is false.

You also say that to consider ourselves as mere products of evolution is preferable —at least in theory; I assume by that you mean naturalism 'works for me'. "Works for me" is a temporary assessment, I hope you know.

Lastly, I will quote your whole paragraph. "The healthy person sees the totality of what he is up against, and finds a way to moral success. The unhealthy person is bogged down with fixed moral absolutes, with disdain for one's own inner self, and with disdain for the inner selves of others. I choose instead the way to emotional health, the way that is free." How is anyone able to see the totality of what one is up against? Nobody has that ability. "Fixed moral absolutes" do not bog anyone down, unless one is committed to their opposite, or if one has false notions of what those moral absolutes are.

Freedom is not found in the inner self that is a slave to sin, at enmity with Christ. Freedom is found here: "For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain." This life is not about this life. This life is about Christ, not self.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Are you saying you are better morally than me?

No, I'm saying my God is morally better than all of us..

So those who are telling me that Christians just do the moral thing are not telling me the truth?

Since "getting saved" does not make you automatically do the right things, then it is an appropriate question to ask what happens if Christians do not do the right things. Do they go to hell?

When an individual has a saving faith in Christ, they are given the seal of God's Holy Spirit:

"And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory." Ephesians 1:13-14

Besides being a guarantee or an earnest of our salvation, the Holy Spirit also brings to our mind the word's/teachings of Jesus:

[v. 16-17]And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you... [v.18] I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you... [v.20] On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you... [v.26]But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you." John 14:16-26

Our position in salvation relies on His work, He has saved us upon our belief in him, He is saving us as the Holy Spirit works in us and with us, and ultimately He will glorify us...

Doing the "right thing" isn't automatic. After I was saved I felt led to quit smoking as for me I was addicted. I prayed and told God I didn't believe I even could quit smoking.

I had tried quitting smoking and failed so often that after I was saved and told my son I was going to quit again he laughed and said "You'll just be buying another pack next week, but have fun with it." then he laughed some more.

However when I said that to God, that this is an impossible thing that I cannot do, he led me to two verses. The first was John 8:36 - "If the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed" and the second being 1 Corinthians 10:13 “No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and He will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation He will provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.” The later a verse that is specifically referencing sin.

Therefore, with little faith in myself that I would actually quit, I stopped smoking. Was it easy? No... there were times in those first weeks I broke down and cried I wanted a cigarette so bad, but in the end, I quit smoking... that was almost 7 years ago and it's been a long time since I've even had a desire to smoke. Not that this is a guarantee I'll never want one again. But the last craving I had was definitely manageable and fleeting.

When we love God and desire to do that which is pleasing to Him, He meets us half way and gives us a way to get through the temptation, He makes what, for us in and of our individual selves, is impossible, into a very real possibility, even if He allows us to experience some difficulty of doing so. Difficulty teaches us as well.

And we also see in this, my own personal experience, how God works with His people through the Holy Spirit. It's not just oh, magic bullet strikes and your just plain going to do the things God desires of you, but he gives you the strength you may lack, and the ability to rise above sin.

Does this make you a perfect Christian overnight? Definitely not. It's not going to mean that in an unguarded moment you won't speak in anger only later to realize how wrongly you acted and spoke, but from the moment we are saved to the time of our death, God is nudging us in the right direction and we overcome one thing after the other as we stay in Him and continue to love Him. But this work requires time, a man who is Christian 40 years will tell you he is still learning and growing all those years later.

On the other hand, I am told us unbelievers are inherently evil, have a fallen nature, and are filled with vile thoughts and emotions

People who are not saved through faith in Christ and living with a close relationship to God, renewed in Spirit sin... yes, and are slaves to sin - meaning yes, they are living in their fallen nature/condition.

This doesn't mean they are "bad" in our fallen estimations. Scripture says "So if you sinful people know how to give good gifts to your children" Matthew 7:11

As human beings we have a conscience, and know within the limitations of our fallen nature how to do "good" things and "bad" things, things even Jesus would call "good" things.

Native Americans, for example, were "good" people. They had a code of right and wrong and were generally good to women and children and were good stewards of the land etc. due to the fact of their creation and the conscience the majority of mankind is endowed with. (save psychopaths etc)

God's standards/ways are above our fallen, separated from God standards and ways. The law itself, while given for transgressions, do give us a taste of what God's standards are, and our inability apart from Him to live up to them in our fallen natures. Galatians 3:24 states: "The law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith"

That is why we need to be given a new nature, which we get a taste of (not yet the fullness of) when we enter into faith through Christ and are sealed with God's Holy Spirit.

And when one group claims that their inner person is better than other people, I think they are mistaken

I agree with you to a degree, however the Holy Spirit within us should make us stand out from the crowd in that the light of Christ be seen in us, make us in ways different from perhaps the average.

When I first met the man to whom I am now married, I "recognized" him as Christian. I don't know how exactly... he was polite like most people, albeit a bit quieter than most, but I knew without him telling me that he was a Christian.

that said I've met plenty before him, but there was something different I couldn't put my finger on. Christ was somehow recognizable in him.

I have experienced both worlds. I was a Christian for many years. But I found myself bound by the thought of a God who knew and judged my every feeling of anger, jealousy, lust, or pride. And it became my duty to clean up every corner of my mind, and never to experience those feelings in God's presence. It was like trying to stop thinking about white bears. The harder I tried, the stronger those feelings became.

The law is a schoolmaster - which in those days were harsh and usually not well regarded for being harsh - to show you that in and of yourself you can't do it, and your desperate need of a Savior.

Once you come to Christ in true saving Faith, you will be freed... As Christ said, "My yoke is easy and my burden light".

There is something in the difficulties you experienced that God wanted you to learn from...which simply could have been that you can't do any of it apart from Him and you have to lean on Him... or as serious as you didn't know Him yet, there was something you were yet missing.