Are Christians better people on the inside?

[Tinker Grey]

If not what else could you be saying?

He could be saying "You are no better than anyone else". Remember math? The opposite of greater than is not less than but "less than or equal to."

 

[Bobber]

So discrimination against the handicapped makes a nation great?

And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Speak unto Aaron, saying, Whosoever he be of thy seed in their generations that hath any blemish, let him not approach to offer the bread of his God.
For whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous,
Or a man that is brokenfooted, or brokenhanded,
Or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken;
No man that hath a blemish of the seed of Aaron the priest shall come nigh to offer the offerings of the LORD made by fire: he hath a blemish; he shall not come nigh to offer the bread of his God.
He shall eat the bread of his God, both of the most holy, and of the holy.
Only he shall not go in unto the vail, nor come nigh unto the altar, because he hath a blemish; that he profane not my sanctuaries: for I the LORD do sanctify them. (Leviticus 21:16-23)​

Nonsense how you've connected an idea that God was being unkind in this. The High Priest was to be a type of the perfect Christ the lamb of God would could take away the sins of the world. And the work of the High Priest would make possible that all sick and afflicted could even be healed. Read Deut 28! And read what Jesus stated in Lk 13:16 when he said, "And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?" All sons and daughter of Abraham had a right to be healed.

Or maybe you'd care to read Lk 5:18 where he Jesus put forth his hand, and touched him, (a leper) saying, I will: be thou clean. And immediately the leprosy departed from him. And he charged him to tell no man: but go, and shew thyself to the priest, and offer for thy cleansing, according as Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them." So guess what? That once afflicted one could actually qualify to become a High Priest. So where's the discrimination?

 

[Bobber]

He could be saying "You are no better than anyone else"

Even the writer of the OP isn't saying that though. He believes he is.

 

[Bobber]

...and people that apply black and white thinking to most anything in life have poor thinking patterns?

I agree.

And you don't believe Christians believe that too? They believe there's lots of things that are a matter of conscience and that people on their spiritual journey are at different levels in their spiritual growth. Paul the Apostle stated to one something may be sin but not to another. There are many things one has to leave between God and that persons conscience. Romans 14:5 There are at times debatable issues. To say though that all things should be open to reasonable questioning and debate is foolishness'. And even from your words if seems you believe there is some white and black thinking that is justified.

 

[Tinker Grey]

Even the writer of the OP isn't saying that though. He believes he is.

You know better than the OP what the OP is saying? Please.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Uh, no you have not explained that many times. In fact, you have emphatically insisted that, after one has become a Christian, this causes him to become a better person. For instance:


So I am a little curious how you can say you have explained it many times that salvation does not cause one to become a better person.

I don't see the word 'better' in there at all. It is my claim that God is the difference, not the person.

Got it. Since I am not a believer, I am "unregenerate", at the core rotten, and unable to submit to laws against killing, stealing, or bearing false witness. But Christians are different.

But you are not saying Christians have become morally superior.

Huh?

See above

As I described in the OP, Christians teach that the gospel changes them, and makes them become better people than non-Christians. But you say, "That isn't at all the point of the Gospel."

So do the saved become better than the unsaved or don't they?

See above

Mark Quayle said: ↑
Second, your description in your first two paragraphs (whether it is true that people have told you this or not) is full of what the Bible does not teach.

Got it. So when you said,
Mark Quayle said: ↑
It is the work of God, from first to last. As a result, they will do the things that mark them as his own. If they do not, they are demonstrating that they are not his own. Regeneration, Belief, Faith, Confession to God, Repentance, Obedience, Pursuing Christ, etc etc are results of the Spirit of God within the believer.

this if full of what the Bible does not teach?

Your re-statement of 'what people say' (Notice that I said, "(whether it is true that people have told you this or not)". Yes, I am skeptical of your claims as to what people say, since you keep paraphrasing what I say.), is what the Bible does not say. And here you go acting as though what I said is the same as what you claim they said. No doubt you will paraphrase what I said to say the same thing as your paraphrase of what they said.

As if being saved fundamentally changes a person! That's silly. Oh, and being saved fundamentally changes a person.

Wait, what?

Again, God is the difference, not the person.

Got it. Christians have become better than people like me, but they haven't become better than people like me.

Huh?

See above

"Works for the apostle Paul" is also a temporary assessment.

Which 'works for Paul' are you referring to? He told us of some things he was not commanded to say, that worked for him, but the things he was commanded to say, are a whole different story from the "works for me" mentality, that justifies a person's mode by the results.

Understood. Perhaps I should have said looks at the totality of what he is up against as best he can. I was not saying people have infinite knowledge.

Read modern psychology. Fixed black and white thinking is not healthy.

Modern psychology does claim, however, that having clear boundaries is healthy. Yet, once again, you paraphrase > boundaries (i.e. fixed moral absolutes) into 'fixed black and white thinking'. You are a remarkable person.

 

[Bobber]

You know better than the OP what the OP is saying? Please.

Seeing you agree with him maybe I know better than you too? Could be some believe that I do. Doesn't matter though as far as I'm concerned. God's assessment is the ONLY thing that's important at the end of the age and I do and will take that seriously. I encourage others to do so as well.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

So discrimination against the handicapped makes a nation great?

And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Speak unto Aaron, saying, Whosoever he be of thy seed in their generations that hath any blemish, let him not approach to offer the bread of his God.
For whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous,
Or a man that is brokenfooted, or brokenhanded,
Or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken;
No man that hath a blemish of the seed of Aaron the priest shall come nigh to offer the offerings of the LORD made by fire: he hath a blemish; he shall not come nigh to offer the bread of his God.
He shall eat the bread of his God, both of the most holy, and of the holy.
Only he shall not go in unto the vail, nor come nigh unto the altar, because he hath a blemish; that he profane not my sanctuaries: for I the LORD do sanctify them. (Leviticus 21:16-23)​

The priests were a type of Christ, therefore they had to be "without blemish".

 

[OldWiseGuy]

...and people that apply black and white thinking to most anything in life have poor thinking patterns?

I agree.

Some things are black and white. A woman I knew told me that to keep her teenage daughter from disobeying her and going out with a rowdy bunch one evening she physically restrained her by sitting on her.

"No means no" is black and white thinking, something families need more of.

 

[doubtingmerle]

The priests were a type of Christ, therefore they had to be "without blemish".

Sounds like discrimination against the handicapped to me.

So Jesus would not like to be identified as a handicapped person?

What if Jesus comes back like that
Two months early and hooked on crack
Will we let him in or turn our back
What if Jesus comes back like that?
-- Collin Raye (What If Jesus Comes Back Like That - YouTube)

​

 

[doubtingmerle]

So you're not actually opposed to someone having a thought they might be morally better then someone else.

Of course not.

Just like I am not opposed to Aaron Rogers thinking that he is a better quarterback than Queen Elizabeth.

You actually do think that way about yourself too.

The OP is not personal. It is not about any person here judging himself to be morally superior to another person here.

It is about evaluating if one group of people is better morally than another group. I hear the claim all the time that Christians are morally superior. And they are not talking about being a little bit better. Just look at what they have said about non-Christians on this thread, calling us rotten to the core. In the meantime they are saying all true Christians are so morally superior that not a single one of them will ever commit murder, or fail to follow up in pursuing Christ.

But I think they are mistaken.

Who says many haven't weighed and assessed what works and what doesn't?

If they feel let's call it Christian principles produces the best results how to you take from that they've just memorized fixed moral absolutes.

I am talking about several people here who have argued for months that the only good basis for morality is fixed absolute morals dictated by God. When some of us try to explain why we make moral judgments based on reasoning through the gray areas with good principles, they are opposed to it, and want morality based on rigid absolutes dictated by God.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Sounds like discrimination against the handicapped to me.

So Jesus would not like to be identified as a handicapped person?

What if Jesus comes back like that
Two months early and hooked on crack
Will we let him in or turn our back
What if Jesus comes back like that?
-- Collin Raye (What If Jesus Comes Back Like That - YouTube)​

Perhaps you can take comfort in the fact that Jesus Christ has been rejected by more people than any one in history. Now that's discrimination.​

 

[doubtingmerle]

So you're not actually opposed to someone having a thought they might be morally better then someone else.

I think you are confusing thinking you might be better than somebody, and proudly declaring it without considering the feeling of others.

Let me illustrate. It would be fine for somebody to think he might be the best player in the league. But if he is asked, "Are you the best player in the league", then he needs to be considerate of the feelings of his peers. It would be fine to say he sometimes thinks he is, but he also realizes there are a lot of other good players out there, and each of them has ways in which they are better then him, but he plans to really work hard and hopes he will be considered for the MVP award again this year.

 

[doubtingmerle]

I don't see the word 'better' in there at all.

Oh for crying out loud.

Speaking of unbelievers you describe them like this:

But in spite of the unregenerate's best efforts, every thing he does, is at the core, rotten. He is self-dependent, opposed to God and unable to submit to God's law.​

Speaking of Christians you describe them like this:

It is the work of God, from first to last. As a result, they will do the things that mark them as his own. If they do not, they are demonstrating that they are not his own. Regeneration, Belief, Faith, Confession to God, Repentance, Obedience, Pursuing Christ, etc etc are results of the Spirit of God within the believer
​

Most people would read those two paragraphs and think you are saying that Christians have become better than non-Christians. You are not saying that?

Again, God is the difference, not the person.

I have told you this several dozen times. I am not asking you what causes one to be good, or claiming you say it can be done without God.

I am not saying you say the person makes the difference. You are saying God makes the difference.

I am not saying you say the person makes the difference. You are saying God makes the difference.

I am not saying you say the person makes the difference. You are saying God makes the difference.

I am not saying you say the person makes the difference. You are saying God makes the difference.

That didn't make a bit of difference, did it? You will still write back as though I am saying that you are saying that the person makes the difference, right?

Which 'works for Paul' are you referring to? He told us of some things he was not commanded to say, that worked for him, but the things he was commanded to say, are a whole different story from the "works for me" mentality, that justifies a person's mode by the results.

All that Paul wrote are his own personal opinions. If you think God told him what to write, where is your evidence of that claim?

Yet, once again, you paraphrase > boundaries (i.e. fixed moral absolutes) into 'fixed black and white thinking'.

Nope. I did not take a book about a different subject and paraphrase it to be about something else.

For instance, I have the book, Feeling Good by Dr. David D. Burns on my bookshelf. On page 42 he gives a list of unhealthy thinking patterns. Number 1 on his list is:

1. ALL-OR-NOTHING THINKING: You see things in black-and-white categories. If your performance falls short of perfect, you see yourself as a total failure. [emphasis in the original]
​

 

[doubtingmerle]

Perhaps you can take comfort in the fact that Jesus Christ has been rejected by more people than any one in history. Now that's discrimination.​

So if a man claimed that Abraham Lincoln was God and died as a sacrifice for our sins, and you rejected that claim, would you say that you are discriminating against Abraham Lincoln?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

So if a man claimed that Abraham Lincoln was God and died as a sacrifice for our sins, and you rejected that claim, would you say that you are discriminating against Abraham Lincoln?

Well that's something to ponder.

 

[doubtingmerle]

Well that's something to ponder.

Don't ponder too long. It is an easy question to answer.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Oh for crying out loud.

Speaking of unbelievers you describe them like this:

But in spite of the unregenerate's best efforts, every thing he does, is at the core, rotten. He is self-dependent, opposed to God and unable to submit to God's law.
Speaking of Christians you describe them like this:

It is the work of God, from first to last. As a result, they will do the things that mark them as his own. If they do not, they are demonstrating that they are not his own. Regeneration, Belief, Faith, Confession to God, Repentance, Obedience, Pursuing Christ, etc etc are results of the Spirit of God within the believer
Most people would read those two paragraphs and think you are saying that Christians have become better than non-Christians. You are not saying that?

(Note, I added the italics to make it clear who said what.) "C'mon, man!" No, I am not saying that Christians are better than non-Christians. It is not them, but God causing the better behavior (if indeed the behavior is better, but that is only tangential to the point, and in many of us, debateable). The regenerated person is changed at the core, yet 'the old man' remains and is fighting desperately to return to the old mode of thinking. The changed ability to obey does not mean they are automatically a better person.

I have told you this several dozen times. I am not asking you what causes one to be good, or claiming you say it can be done without God.

I am not saying you say the person makes the difference. You are saying God makes the difference.

I am not saying you say the person makes the difference. You are saying God makes the difference.

I am not saying you say the person makes the difference. You are saying God makes the difference.

I am not saying you say the person makes the difference. You are saying God makes the difference.

That didn't make a bit of difference, did it? You will still write back as though I am saying that you are saying that the person makes the difference, right?

If you are saying that the person is a better person than the unregenerate, you are laying the credit on the person, not on God. That is false.

All that Paul wrote are his own personal opinions. If you think God told him what to write, where is your evidence of that claim?

Moving the goalposts now? You giving up on your claim or something, and now want to change the debate?

If the basic question is whether God (and according to you (falsely) by extension, Paul and I) can know your thoughts well enough to know you knew God, then the debate is presupposing God exists. You are moving the goalposts to say I must prove God exists.

Nope. I did not take a book about a different subject and paraphrase it to be about something else.

Who said anything about you taking a book to paraphrase?

For instance, I have the book, Feeling Good by Dr. David D. Burns on my bookshelf. On page 42 he gives a list of unhealthy thinking patterns. Number 1 on his list is:

1. ALL-OR-NOTHING THINKING: You see things in black-and-white categories. If your performance falls short of perfect, you see yourself as a total failure. [emphasis in the original]

So you ignore what I said. His claim (as you quote it here) is a general statement, (that sounds more like an immature sanguine bipolar mental patient than the average Christian); it does not mean that having fixed boundaries for behavior is mentally unhealthy.

Here is the first result I saw from a quick Google search (but yes, there are studies to show this): "Creating, setting and following through with personal boundaries will help maintain your mental health. Boundaries can also help you grow, save your emotional and mental energy, and act as a form of self-care."

 

[doubtingmerle]

If you are saying that the person is a better person than the unregenerate, you are laying the credit on the person, not on God.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no! I am not saying that.

I have told you dozens of times on this thread and the other thead.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no! I am not saying that. I have told you dozens of times.

When I say that you say Christians have become better than non-Christians, I am not saying that you think they did that on their own.

And what are you going to do? You are going to respond and tell me I am saying the opposite of what I just emphatically said, yes?

Nothing I say matters. I can be emphatic, emphatic, emphatic, and you just smile and tell me I am saying the exact opposite.

 

[Mark Quayle]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no! I am not saying that.

I have told you dozens of times on this thread and the other thead.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no! I am not saying that. I have told you dozens of times.

When I say that you say Christians have become better than non-Christians, I am not saying that you think they did that on their own.

And what are you going to do? You are going to respond and tell me I am saying the opposite of what I just emphatically said, yes?

Nothing I say matters. I can be emphatic, emphatic, emphatic, and you just smile and tell me I am saying the exact opposite.

lolol that sounds familiar.