Regeneration before faith?

BNR32FAN said:

If that is true how were people regenerated before John the Baptist’s ministry?

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The same way as after John the Baptist's ministry...
by the Spirit and by the word of God ( Titus 3:5-7 ).

For example, David was a man "after God's own heart".
In other words, David's heart was "after", or the same as, God's own heart... as all of His children are.

See the definition of "after" here in # 3:
Definition of AFTER

A person cannot be described as being "after" God's own heart unless their hearts have been changed by God to resemble that of His Son's.
That is what being born again does...
He takes out the heart of stone, and installs a heart of flesh ( Ezekiel 11:19, Ezekiel 36:26 ), just as was prophesied to Israel.


All that are saved were predestinated conformed to the image of Christ ( Romans 8:29-30 )...
That is, they have a heart and mind that are like that of Jesus Christ, their Saviour ( 1 Corinthians 2:16 ).

BNR32FAN said:

Sin is not disobedience?

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Huh ? You lost me !

Brightfame52 said:

Prior to New Birth the Elect are disobedient Titus 3:3

For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.

As Born again believers we are not disobedient, but servants of righteousness Rom 6:18. Now as believers, we do have a warfare with the flesh Gal 5;Rom 7 but that's not disobedience.

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Do you believe that Paul was born again when he said, in Romans 7:19, that "for the good that I would I do not, but the evil which I would not, that I do." This sounds like, at times, Paul was disobedient, as we all are at times, though we are born again. God paid for the sins of those that he died for, as far as eternal security is concerned, and we never lose our eternal inheritance. Though we are born again, we do still carry the baggage of our sinful nature, and sometimes do yield our bodies to the temptation of sin, however, when God pricks the conscience of our newly replaced heart, we repent and are accepted back into God's fellowship.

Paul does state in Romans 7 that "with his mind he serves the law of God, but with his flesh the law of sin".

Navair2 said:

The same way as after John the Baptist's ministry...
by the Spirit and by the word of God ( Titus 3:5-7 ).

For example, David was a man "after God's own heart".
In other words, David's heart was "after", or the same as, God's own heart... as all of His children are.

See the definition of "after" here in # 3:
Definition of AFTER

A person cannot be described as being "after" God's own heart unless their hearts have been changed by God to resemble that of His Son's.
That is what being born again does...
He takes out the heart of stone, and installs a heart of flesh ( Ezekiel 11:19, Ezekiel 36:26 ), just as was prophesied to Israel.


All that are saved were predestinated conformed to the image of Christ ( Romans 8:29-30 )...
That is, they have a heart and mind that are like that of Jesus Christ, their Saviour ( 1 Corinthians 2:16 ).

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You are exactly right. When we are born again God places his Holy Spirit within us. The old testament saints were all born again with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the same manner as the new testament saints are, Isaiah 63:11.

Brightfame52 said:

Prior to New Birth the Elect are disobedient Titus 3:3

For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.

As Born again believers we are not disobedient, but servants of righteousness Rom 6:18. Now as believers, we do have a warfare with the flesh Gal 5;Rom 7 but that's not disobedience.

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Romans 6:23, For the wages of sin is "death" (Greek meaning = a separation); but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord, Those whom Christ died for on the cross are separated from their sins forever as far as their eternal inheritance is concerned, however, they are born naturally into this world with the sin nature of Adam and even after they have been born again, they carry their sin nature with them, and do sometimes yield their bodies to the temptations of sin, as Paul did, which separates (death) them from their fellowship with God, temporary, until they repent and regain their fellowship again.

Frosty Cook said:

When we are born again God places his Holy Spirit within us.

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It may seem like a very fine point, but From God's word I see that when a person believes, He places His holy Spirit within them ( Ephesians 1:13-14 ).

When regeneration ( or being born again ) actually takes place I see as happening immediately before, when God opens the heart ( Acts of the Apostles 16:14 ) so that we might "attend" or listen to, God's words.

Frosty Cook said:

The old testament saints were all born again with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the same manner as the new testament saints are, Isaiah 63:11.

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Another fine point of distinction I'll admit, but here I see that the Old Testament saints were indeed born again in their hearts, but they did not always have the Holy Spirit in them.

I notice that in the case of Isaiah 63:11, it says, "in the midst of them"...not "in them"...
David, as an example, had the Spirit upon Him ( 1 Samuel 16:13 ) from a certain day on, while the Spirit came upon, and left, others...
But it is not said to be in him.


So the permanent indwelling of the Spirit for all of His saints didn't happen, as a group, until after Pentecost...
When the prophecy of Joel ( Joel 2:28-32 ) was fulfilled ( Acts of the Apostles 2:14-21 ).

My observations, for whatever they are worth.

@windwhistler :
So, to answer the OP...

I see from careful examination and many years of study in the Scriptures, that being born again ( regeneration ) does indeed happen before faith.

Because Biblical faith is the gift of God ( Ephesians 2:8 ), authored and finished by Jesus Christ ( Hebrews 12:2 ), and is the evidence ( Hebrews 11:1 ) of our having not only been written in the Lamb's Book of Life from the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1:4-5, Revelation 13:8, Revelation 17:8 ), it is not something that all men have ( 2 Thessalonians 3:2 ).

Before faith came to us as believers in Jesus Christ ( Galatians 3:23 ), God's elect were kept under the Law until the faith ( the body of God's truth as contained in the Scriptures ) was revealed to us.
That faith is said to be "of" Jesus Christ ( Galatians 3:16-20 ), and it was something that Paul told us that he lived by.

@windwhistler :

Here are the two prevailing viewpoints that are taught today regarding how and why God saves a person and grants them eternal life ( which is to know God and His Son, John 17:3 ):

"Prevenient Grace" teaches that when the Gospel is preached, all men have the chance to believe on Christ because faith comes "by hearing the word of God" ( Romans 10:17 )...
And that everyone who hears it then has the choice to believe it or to reject it.

However, only those who were foreknown of God will ultimately accept and believe the Gospel.
God's "foreknowledge" is said to be passive under this set of beliefs...
In other words, God's decision to save someone rests upon whether or not they believe on His Son...and everything moves from there, including the miracle of the new birth.

Sometimes referred to as "Arminianism", this set of teachings ( there's more to it than simply "Prevenient Grace" ) also allows people to finally fall away ( loss of salvation ), while others who believe this way say that God keeps His people by His own power ( "eternal security" or "Once Saved Always Saved", 1 Peter 1:5 ), and no one really falls away.

This includes regeneration after faith, with God's gifts of eternal life, righteousness in His sight and the understanding of the Scriptures relying, at their foundation, on the efforts of men taking up God on His offer of salvation.

Frosty Cook said:

Do you believe that Paul was born again when he said, in Romans 7:19, that "for the good that I would I do not, but the evil which I would not, that I do." This sounds like, at times, Paul was disobedient, as we all are at times, though we are born again. God paid for the sins of those that he died for, as far as eternal security is concerned, and we never lose our eternal inheritance. Though we are born again, we do still carry the baggage of our sinful nature, and sometimes do yield our bodies to the temptation of sin, however, when God pricks the conscience of our newly replaced heart, we repent and are accepted back into God's fellowship.

Paul does state in Romans 7 that "with his mind he serves the law of God, but with his flesh the law of sin".

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You diverting into a different subject !

@windwhistler :

"Irresistible Grace" teaches that when the Gospel is preached ( Romans 10:8-21, 1 Corinthians 1:18-31, ), only those who have "ears to hear" ( Matthew 11:27, Matthew 13:9 and many others, including John 8:43-47 ) willingly receive God's words and believe them "to the saving of the soul"...

Because faith "comes by hearing, but hearing comes by the word of God" ( Romans 10:17, Do you see the subtle difference? Faith coming by hearing, placing it on man to do the act under "Prevenient Grace", versus faith coming by hearing, but hearing coming by the word of God, placing it on God to do the act ).

They are God's elect, a remnant out of every tongue, tribe and nation ( and a multitude which no man can number, see Revelation 5:9 and Revelation 7:9 ) whom the Lord has graciously chosen, in His wisdom, to have mercy and compassion on ( Romans 9:13-24 ).

The rest will invariably reject God's words because they are not "of God", or they will "believe" for a time and then fall away because they are "tares", sown in Christ's "field" by His enemy, the devil ( Matthew 13:24-30, Matthew 13:36-43 ).
All who are the Lord's elect, chosen in Christ from the foundation of the world, will be kept and not one of them will be lost.

God's foreknowledge is said to be active in this sense, and it is described not only as knowing about His people, but intimately knowing ( loving ) them, in His mind's eye, before they were born ( Jeremiah 1:5, Psalms 139 ).
God's decision to save someone was made independent of what we do as men, and belief of His words necessarily follows as a result of God's miracle of the new birth.


Sometimes referred to as "Calvinism", this set of teachings ( there's much more to it than simply "Irresistible Grace" ) will never see one of God's precious children fall away...even under often terrible trials and tribulations in this life.
They not only are kept by His own power ( 1 Peter 1:5 ), they are truly born again and sealed by the Spirit of God until the day of their bodily redemption.

This includes regeneration before faith, with God's gifts of eternal life, righteousness in His sight and the understanding of the Scriptures relying, at their foundation, on God's efforts alone on the behalf of those He has decided to save.


I hope that helps, and may God bless you in your studies.

Brightfame52 said:

You diverting into a different subject !

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I agree...
But is it not related to the subject of when being born again takes place?

Navair2 said:

I agree...
But is it not related to the subject of when being born again takes place?

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I wasnt talking about when being born again takes place, however it takes place whenever and wherever God has appointed, Jesus compared it to the wind blowing Jn 3:7-8

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Also I would compare it our natural birth in that it was according to Gods set time Ecc 3:1-2
To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;

FreeGrace2 said:

The reason no Scripture was given on this is because there are none.

In fact, the Bible clearly shows that faith precedes regeneration.

Eph 2:5 - made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. NIV q

The second phrase clarifies the first phrase. So, the red words and the blue words are equated. To be "made alive" or regenerated is to be "saved".

iow, you can't have one without the other.

Now for the clincher:

Eph 2:8 - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

Note that the blue words are the exact same as found at the end of v.5.

And what follows? "through faith", the red words.

These words "through faith" obviously shows that faith must be first before there can be salvation.

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The "through faith" is not mankinds faith, but is the faithfulness of Christ in going to the cross.(Gal 2:16).

Frosty Cook said:

The "through faith" is not mankinds faith, but is the faithfulness of Christ in going to the cross.(Gal 2:16).

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I agree and the faith the elect believe with comes from Christ, His Spirit and Grace authors it.

windwhistler said:

I was actually searching for information online about another topic and found this. If I remember correctly it came from a respected Christian writer, but I may be mixed up since I looked at a lot of websites. I have never heard of this before. It seems like some believe that a person can be regenerated before they had faith in Christ and redemption by his sacrifice. There was no scripture given as to on what this was based.

Is it familiar to others and can anyone explain to me where this belief came from?

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The belief comes from the correct view that man cannot turn and move himself to God. Man is lost and God must, by grace, reach down to save him. Again, this is true and supported by the ancient churches as well as the ECFs. The error is in thinking that man's will is completely removed from the equation. The true gospel involves God reaching down to man, by His grace, and stirring, moving, informing, appealing to, and drawing us to Himself, to believe, to acknowledge Him and make Him our God again. This is the essence of our justificatiion, being made just. It's not about totally changing us first so that we will certainly turn to Him without the ability or any more desire to say "no".

In classic Christianity man said "no" in Eden and God's been patiently working with man ever since to cultivate in him a "yes", however weak a "yes" at first, but meant to grow stronger as, through struggle, we grow in even greater faith, hope, and, most importantly, love. We don't give up our obstinate pride that separates us from Him easily, or overnight; man can always say "no". And while God doesn't demand absolute sinless perfection in this life, a perfectly consistent "yes", He does demand a "yes" that means that we're on board with Him, striving towards the holiness that only communion with Him can accomplish in us.

"Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne." Rev 3:20-21

fhansen

The true gospel involves God reaching down to man, by His grace, and stirring, moving, informing, appealing to, and drawing us to Himself, to believe, to acknowledge Him and make Him our God again. This is the essence of our justificatiion, being made just. It's not about totally changing us first so that we will certainly turn to Him without the ability or any more desire to say "no".

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This is false because man is dead, no appealing, informing, stirring will help a dead man, so Gods Grace first makes the dead person alive, that's when drawing begins. And before the drawing, they are already legally Justified before God by the imputed righteousness of Christ. So technically, only the legally saved, Justified are made alive and drawn ! Jn 12:32

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Being lifted up refers to His death, so, the ones He died for are Justified by His death, then made alive !

Why do "Calvinists" ignore the word "Repent" ?

Read the recent book "The Foundation of Augustinian-Calvinism" by Ken Wilson, if you want to understand the original source of this man-made doctrine. Augustine was attempting to explain how infants could become the "elect" through water baptism. Since the child had not come to faith, it must be based on the will of another. It could have nothing to do with the will of the child.




Mat_3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mat_4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mar_1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Mar_6:12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.

Luk_13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Luk_13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Luk_16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

Luk_17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.

Luk_17:4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

Act_2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Act_3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Act_8:22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

Act_17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Act_26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

baberean2

Why do "Calvinists" ignore the word "Repent" ?

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Its not ignored, we know that the command to repent is given strictly to the regenerate, those who have been given repentance. Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Man by nature cant repent because they are lost and dead to God. Only the regenerate are caused to repent by Gods command.

Brightfame52 said:

fhansen



This is false because man is dead, no appealing, informing, stirring will help a dead man, so Gods Grace first makes the dead person alive, that's when drawing begins. And before the drawing, they are already legally Justified before God by the imputed righteousness of Christ. So technically, only the legally saved, Justified are made alive and drawn ! Jn 12:32

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Being lifted up refers to His death, so, the ones He died for are Justified by His death, then made alive !

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In the parable of the prodigal son, a dead man returns home to his father and humbly confesses his sins. The problem is that Calvinists conflate spiritual death with physical death, in order to manufacture a pretext for the necessity of Irresistible Grace. The reality is that the unsaved do not have “rigor mortis.” Spiritual death is not rigor mortis. Instead, it is separation, which can be reconciled, just like in the case of the Prodigal Son.