Law vs Grace

Sidon said:

Not at all.
See, there is the old covenant law that is Moses giving it.
Then you have this verse..>"the law came by Moses, but Grace and Truth came by Jesus The Christ".

So, see that ?
That is not the same thing.
That is the old testament ending and the New Testament becoming the end game.
That's what im trying to get you to SEE.

Also, if you are born again, then the only repenting that mattered was when you repented of your unbelief and God accepted this FAITH in Christ, as... "Justification by faith". "Faith is COUNTED as Righteousness".

Everyone is sorry for their sin who gets caught, but that is not real repentance.
God only accepts the repentance that turns from unbelief to belief in Jesus.

Keep in mind that God's blood was shed 2000 Yrs ago.
That is when Salvation was CREATED.
Its not created by water baptism.

Salvation is not of you, or of water, or of law or commandments.
Its of God on that Cross 2000 yrs ago, causing it.
He did. Jesus said..>"it is finished" and died.
2000 ys Later...>"all who call on the name of JESUS, shall be SAVED".

"Justification by faith, without the works of the Law".

Here is the bumper sticker.

If you take Christ, God takes you.

Its just that simple. or "the simplicity that is in Christ". or "the preaching of the Cross"

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You do realize Jesus taught the disciples from the Old Testament? The Old Testament has never been deleted from the Bible. We are in the New Covenant, which is God's laws written from the OT now in our hearts Jeremiah 31:33.

You really should consider believing in the whole bible. It is one fluid book. All the Word of God. Jesus did not come to do His own will but the will of His Father.

Sin is not love. Jesus wants us to love Him. How do you love Jesus? According to Jesus He tells us. John 14:15, 1 John 5:3, John 10:15 Exodus 20:6

Salvation and grace are God's gift. We do not keep the law to be saved, it is a fruit of our salvation.

Mathew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Here a very short video on law and grace if anyone is interested. It’s about 15 minutes.

BobRyan said:

you simply refer to a verbatim qoute of the text and then proceed to show why you object to the text
Friday at 10:32 AM #69

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Sidon said:

Not at all.
I only objected to you misusing the verse

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False. I only posted the text in that example - and so you "quoted the text" from my post - and objected to it.

BobRyan said:

Matt 7 - "by their fruits you shall know them"
Rom 2:13 "for it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the Law who will be justified."
1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"
1 John 5:3-4 "this IS the Love of God that we KEEP His Commandments"

WHERE

"the first commandment WITH a promise" is "Honor your father and mother" Eph 6:1-2 in that still-valid unit of TEN.

Rev 14:12 "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" -- it is not "either OR"

Obedience to the Word of God is not legalism according to Christ - Mark 7:6-13

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those are just Bible texts being quoted

Sidon said:

Its not a matter of preferring the bible.
Its a matter of rightly dividing it.
For example, when you quote a verse that is given by an apostle...

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Then at that point you need to deal with the text itself

Rom 3:19-20
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law none of mankind will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes knowledge of sin.

Rom 3:31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? Far from it! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

Sidon said:

So, that same apostle, is not saying that JESUS's Death, has established what it actually abolished,

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hint: No text you quoted or that I quoted said Jesus "abolished/nullified the Law"

But we do find both "far from it" when it comes to that speculation and the affirmation "in fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" - the same Law that in vs 19-20 condemns the entire world who are not under gospel New Covenant.

The point remains.

Sidon said:

Have you ever been taught that the day that Moses gave the 10 Commandments, 3000 people DIED.

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well that is not true in Ex 20... have you read Exodus??

hint: Exodus 20 is where you find the Ten Commandments spoken to Israel

Sidon said:

The Old Testament isn't deleted, its just replaced by the New Testament.
This is the "new covenant", that is generated by Jesus's Blood, Death, and Resurrection.
You wont find that in the OT or Old Covenant, except by prophecy.

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Replace- delete you are saying the same thing- no longer exists and that is not true.

The New Covenant is God's laws written in our hearts. Jeremiah 31:33 which is in the OT.

God's laws came from the OT and Jesus taught from the OT the OT was not replaced, the Bible is one fluid book that consists of important lessons throughout. What you are saying is that Jesus came to do His own will and not the will of His Father but that's not what the Bible teaches. John 6:38

Sidon said:

Its an insult to the Blood of Jesus, for you to deny the Blood of Jesus is the New Covenant and New Testament.
Dont do that.

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Quoting bible scripture is an insult? I never said anything about denying the great sacrifice of our Savior. Jesus taught all about the Old Testament and told us to follow Him. I obey Jesus and not man.

Sidon said:

Have you read Paul?
.

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I keep quoting Paul in his Romans 2 and Rom 3:19-20, 31 statements and you keep referencing the text of Paul in those cases only to indicate how opposed you are to the mere quote of it.

Bible details matter

BobRyan said:

Matt 7 - "by their fruits you shall know them"
Rom 2:13 "for it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the Law who will be justified."
1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"
1 John 5:3-4 "this IS the Love of God that we KEEP His Commandments"

WHERE

"the first commandment WITH a promise" is "Honor your father and mother" Eph 6:1-2 in that still-valid unit of TEN.

Rev 14:12 "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" -- it is not "either OR"

Obedience to the Word of God is not legalism according to Christ - Mark 7:6-13

Click to expand...

those are just Bible texts being quoted

Sidon said:

Its not a matter of preferring the bible.
Its a matter of rightly dividing it.
For example, when you quote a verse that is given by an apostle...

Click to expand...

Then at that point you need to deal with the text itself

Rom 3:19-20
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law none of mankind will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes knowledge of sin.

Rom 3:31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? Far from it! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

Sidon said:

So, that same apostle, is not saying that JESUS's Death, has established what it actually abolished,

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1 No text you quoted or that I quoted said Jesus "abolished/nullified the Law"

2. But we do find both "far from it" when it comes to that speculation and the affirmation "in fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" - the same Law that in vs 19-20 condemns the entire world who are not under gospel New Covenant.

Bible details matter.

Sidon said:

I never object to the Bible.

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Fine - post your acceptance of Rom 2 and Rom 3:31 instead of repeatedly posting your opposition when you see those texts in this thread

BobRyan said:

Rom 3:19-20
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law none of mankind will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes knowledge of sin.

Rom 3:31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? Far from it! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

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Sidon said:

Like i told you 3x.
Hell today gained thousands more who thought that keeping the law would keep them out of it.
They learned the hard way, that keeping the law, sent them there.

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Do you know the difference between vitriol and Bible study?
No matter how many lost people there are in the world Rom 3:31 "still exists" so also does Romans 2.
Still waiting for you to not object when those texts come up.

Sidon said:

John 3:36
Jesus said, "you MUST be BORN AGAIN"

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True. Now deal with Rom 3:31 and Romans 2 without objecting to them.

Sidon said:

There is no lawkeeping involved, in the Blood Atonement

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Then apparently you don't know anything about the atoning sacrifice of Christ -- He is the spotless , sinless lamb of God slain for the sins of the world. The ultimate example of "law keeping" as you term it.

Sidon said:

The Old Testament isn't deleted, its just replaced by the New Testament.
This is the "new covenant", that is generated by Jesus's Blood, Death, and Resurrection.
You wont find that in the OT or Old Covenant, except by prophecy.

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That's actually an inaccurate concept. Replace of delete is only from the perspective of what to be used as a judgment tool. No law nor covenant will go away in terms of how they are observed. It means once we are entitled to be under a particular covenant, we will be judged by this covenant alone. However it doesn't mean that we don't need to observe the previous covenant. That's Paul actually urged Timothy to get circumcised (a requirement of the Mosaic covenant).

Before the New Covenant, gentiles are judged by basically our conscience which shall be inherited from the most original covenant of Noah. When the Jews got the Mosaic covenant, do they need to follow their own conscience to act? The answer is yes. This means a newer covenant won't void an older covenant. Similarly do gentiles need to follow their own conscience to act even after they adapted the New Covenant? The answer is yes, we are under New Covenant but we also need to follow our conscience to act (a requirement of an older covenant for gentiles). We are under the New Covenant, such that we will only be judged by faith/Grace alone in terms of judgment, however we need also to observe the older covenant for us to follow our conscience to act.

By the same token, Jewish Christians such as Timothy is already under the New Covenant. It's still beneficial for them to be reckoned as Jews by observing the Mosaic covenant. It it better for them to continue to observe the Mosaic covenant while as Christians. Though the Final Judgment will only be based on the New Covenant.

Historically, one of the reasons Sunday was chosen to be the Lord Day is to allow the Jews to continue to practice Sabbath on Saturday. In terms of observance covenants overlap each other instead of replacing each other while only the newest covenant will be valid in terms of salvation.

Similarly Law will never go away, even though we are no longer judged by Law under the New Covenant. Law is abolished for us only from the perspective that our salvation is no longer depending on the works of Law. That's how we are told not to continue to sin (while sin is a trespass of Law). Actually it is for the same reason it is said the faith without works is dead.

All we need to do is to focus on faith in Christ, this way our sins will gradually be gone as faith increases. Gradually we shall be more and more like Jesus and to be holy. If you choose to go the opposite way, your faith is pretty much dead.