Church elders under fire for threatening to expel mom who left husband, started dating woman

GreekOrthodox · Apr 22, 2021

If they allow her to communion, at least from a broad historic, including Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, Anglican, then they are letting her drink condemnation from the cup as Paul indicates in 1 Corinthians

Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord. 28 Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself. 30 That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died. 31 But if we judged ourselves truly, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged by the Lord, we are disciplined so that we may not be condemned along with the world.

Christ Himself in Matthew 18 says

“If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

2BeholdHisGlory · Apr 22, 2021

Eftsoon said:
I have seen no scriptural support for excommunication.

Paul does not use that word, his instruction was to put away such a person out from among them in 1 Cr 5:13

Eftsoon · Apr 22, 2021

GreekOrthodox said:
If they allow her to communion, at least from a broad historic, including Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, Anglican, then they are letting her drink condemnation from the cup as Paul indicates in 1 Corinthians

Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord. 28 Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself. 30 That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died. 31 But if we judged ourselves truly, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged by the Lord, we are disciplined so that we may not be condemned along with the world.

Christ Himself in Matthew 18 says

“If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

That verse appears to be out of context. It sounds like He is talking about interpersonal issues here. In this thread, no one has provided any evidence as to why this woman should be banned from attending church services.

PaulCyp1 · Apr 22, 2021

You have to differentiate between sexuality and sexual activity. The original and true Christian Church, the one Church Jesus Christ founded, which He said was to remain one, to which He promised the fullness of God's truth, has many homosexual members in good standing. They live their lives as God calls them to live, just like the heterosexual members. Sexual orientation is not a moral issue, since it is not freely chosen. Sexual behavior is a moral issue, regardless of one's orientation, because it is freely chosen.

GreekOrthodox · Apr 22, 2021

FYI, there are times where I WILL NOT take communion because I am not repentant about something or at least have not been to confession about a serious sin. I realize that in that state, I would be eating and drinking unworthily.

2BeholdHisGlory · Apr 22, 2021

PaulCyp1 said:
You have to differentiate between sexuality and sexual activity. The original and true Christian Church, the one Church Jesus Christ founded, which He said was to remain one, to which He promised the fullness of God's truth, has many homosexual members in good standing. They live their lives as God calls them to live, just like the heterosexual members. Sexual orientation is not a moral issue, since it is not freely chosen. Sexual behavior is a moral issue, regardless of one's orientation, because it is freely chosen.

What scripture speaks to these sexualities and sexual activities?

Eftsoon · Apr 22, 2021

2BeholdHisGlory said:
Paul does not use that word, his instruction was to put away such a person out from among them in 1 Cr 5:13

Is this verse talking about banning people from the church? It may well be, but it seems somehow unlikely. If we were to excommunicate 'the sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler', there would be virtually no one left in our churches. Perhaps this is the idea. We do tread a narrow path.
I have never heard of anyone excommunicating people for greed. Ever. On the contrary, people are praised for behaviour which is essentially greed.

That said, I have now read the letter in full. It is more nuanced than a total ban from everything. She hasn't been unceremoniously dropkicked. It sounds like she could, in theory, attend meetings if she chose to. I'm not averse to official membership being revoked. it should however be unilaterally done. We have our pet issues, and we like to wax indignant about these to the exclusion of other things.

Eftsoon · Apr 22, 2021

2BeholdHisGlory said:
What scripture speaks to these sexualities and sexual activities?

He's saying that same-sex attraction is not a sin. Acting on that attraction is a sin.

2BeholdHisGlory · Apr 22, 2021

Eftsoon said:
Is this verse talking about banning people from the church? It may well be, but it seems somehow unlikely. If we were to excommunicate 'the sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler', there would be virtually no one left in our churches. Perhaps this is the idea. We do tread a narrow path.
I have never heard of anyone excommunicating people for greed. Ever. On the contrary, people are praised for behaviour which is essentially greed.

That said, I have now read the letter in full. It is more nuanced than a total ban from everything. She hasn't been unceremoniously dropkicked. It sounds like she could, in theory, attend meetings if she chose to. I'm not averse to official membership being revoked. it should however be unilaterally done. We have our pet issues, and we like to wax indignant about these to the exclusion of other things.

Why should the church continue to be what we were washed from? You believe the church should be sexually immoral, greedy idolaters, slanderers, drunkards and swindlers?

That would make no sense for him to write to put away from among them such.

He specified, saying one that is called a brother

East of Eden · Apr 22, 2021

Eftsoon said:
That verse appears to be out of context. It sounds like He is talking about interpersonal issues here. In this thread, no one has provided any evidence as to why this woman should be banned from attending church services.

Where does it say interpersonal issues? It says sin, and in this case the sin is a pattern, not an event.

GreekOrthodox · Apr 22, 2021

Eftsoon said:
That verse appears to be out of context. It sounds like He is talking about interpersonal issues here. In this thread, no one has provided any evidence as to why this woman should be banned from attending church services.

A number of chapters of 1 Corinthians is specifically about a man who married his father's wife. From the Orthodox perspective, I am referring only to partaking of the sacraments.

However, just this Sunday was the celebration of St Mary of Egypt. She became a prostitute at the age of 12. After seventeen years of this lifestyle, she traveled to Jerusalem for the Great Feasts of the Exaltation of the Holy Cross. She undertook the journey as a sort of "anti-pilgrimage", stating that she hoped to find in the pilgrim crowds at Jerusalem even more partners in her lust. She paid for her passage by offering sexual favors to other pilgrims, and she continued her habitual lifestyle for a short time in Jerusalem. Her Vita relates that when she tried to enter the Church of the Holy Sepulchre for the celebration, she was barred from doing so by an unseen force. Realizing that this was because of her impurity, she was struck with remorse, and upon seeing an icon of the Theotokos (the Virgin Mary) outside the church, she prayed for forgiveness and promised to give up the world (i.e., become an ascetic). Then she attempted again to enter the church, and this time was permitted in. After venerating the relic of the true cross, she returned to the icon to give thanks, and heard a voice telling her, "If you cross the Jordan, you will find glorious rest." She immediately went to the monastery of Saint John the Baptist on the bank of the River Jordan, where she received absolution and afterwards Holy Communion. The next morning, she crossed the Jordan and retired to the desert to live the rest of her life as a hermit in penitence. She took with her only three loaves of bread, and once they were gone, lived only on what she could find in the wilderness.

Eftsoon · Apr 22, 2021

2BeholdHisGlory said:
Why should the church continue to be what we were washed from? You believe the church should be sexually immoral, greedy idolaters, slanderers, drunkards and swindlers?

That would make no sense for him to write to put away from among them such.

He specified, saying one that is called a brother

That is not what I am saying at all. I'm saying that the church is full of such people and there is selective chastisement. We're so lost in the capitalist mindset that I'm not sure that we are even capable of rightly discerning greed any more.

2BeholdHisGlory · Apr 22, 2021

Eftsoon said:
He's saying that same-sex attraction is not a sin. Acting on that attraction is a sin.

If they which are Christs have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts for whichever thing they have had desires for than they wouldnt have those same crucified affections.

I dont see the words same sex attractions but more according to lusts, but the same would hold true for those who desire the opposite sex, same thing, lusts can fall in the order of what is natural or unnatural.

2BeholdHisGlory · Apr 22, 2021

Eftsoon said:
That is not what I am saying at all. I'm saying that the church is full of such people and there is selective chastisement. We're so lost in the capitalist mindset that I'm not sure that we are even capable of rightly discerning greed any more.

When I post what Paul writes to us I never once thought it come out from a capitalist (croney or otherwise) or try to seek to undermine his words for church instruction based on the excuses we might make against his words because of the time we live in. He also speaks of a time people would not endure sound doctrine and given the churches (as you appear to indicate) are full of what you are implying they are full of it just validates Pauls words even more on the other side of the issue.

Eftsoon · Apr 22, 2021

2BeholdHisGlory said:
Why should the church continue to be what we were washed from? You believe the church should be sexually immoral, greedy idolaters, slanderers, drunkards and swindlers?

That would make no sense for him to write to put away from among them such.

He specified, saying one that is called a brother

East of Eden said:
Where does it say interpersonal issues? It says sin, and in this case the sin is a pattern, not an event.

GreekOrthodox said:
A number of chapters of 1 Corinthians is specifically about a man who married his father's wife. From the Orthodox perspective, I am referring only to partaking of the sacraments.

However, just this Sunday was the celebration of St Mary of Egypt. She became a prostitute at the age of 12. After seventeen years of this lifestyle, she traveled to Jerusalem for the Great Feasts of the Exaltation of the Holy Cross. She undertook the journey as a sort of "anti-pilgrimage", stating that she hoped to find in the pilgrim crowds at Jerusalem even more partners in her lust. She paid for her passage by offering sexual favors to other pilgrims, and she continued her habitual lifestyle for a short time in Jerusalem. Her Vita relates that when she tried to enter the Church of the Holy Sepulchre for the celebration, she was barred from doing so by an unseen force. Realizing that this was because of her impurity, she was struck with remorse, and upon seeing an icon of the Theotokos (the Virgin Mary) outside the church, she prayed for forgiveness and promised to give up the world (i.e., become an ascetic). Then she attempted again to enter the church, and this time was permitted in. After venerating the relic of the true cross, she returned to the icon to give thanks, and heard a voice telling her, "If you cross the Jordan, you will find glorious rest." She immediately went to the monastery of Saint John the Baptist on the bank of the River Jordan, where she received absolution and afterwards Holy Communion. The next morning, she crossed the Jordan and retired to the desert to live the rest of her life as a hermit in penitence. She took with her only three loaves of bread, and once they were gone, lived only on what she could find in the wilderness.

My position should be clarified because it has changed a little.

I originally thought this woman was going to be thrown out of the church never to return unless she repents.

I originally thought that there would be security guards barring her entry should she decide to return.

This is apparently not the case. She has just had her official membership revoked. There is scriptural support for this absolutely. Should she one day decide to attend a service, she may do so, she is just no longer permitted to come into the inner fold so to speak. This protects the body of Christ.

I am however still concerned that Jeff Bezos would be welcomed into most of our churches with open arms, while a lesbian divorcee is shunned,disfellowshipped excommunicated etc. Deeply inconsistent. This same expulsive act has to be extended to the whole church, not just those whose sins we personally find distasteful.

GOD Shines Forth! · Apr 22, 2021

Where is this lady's generosity towards her fellow believers? Why not remove yourself if you are embarking on a path at odds with the church you belong to? Wouldn’t that be the best thing for all?

Taodeching · Apr 22, 2021

Eftsoon said:
I am however still concerned that Jeff Bezos would be welcomed into most of our churches with open arms, while a lesbian divorcee is shunned,disfellowshipped excommunicated etc.

Absolutely not should he refuse to repent and display his sin boldly. If the Church refuses to discipline for the good of the person's soul than God will. Many are sick and die because they partake Communion unworthily. Excommunication is an act of love, the world sees it as mean because they want to celebrate sin. Ultimately it is the prayer of the Church that a person will come to their senses, repent and be restored to fellowship.

Eftsoon · Apr 22, 2021

Taodeching said:
Absolutely not should he refuse to repent and display his sin boldly. If the Church refuses to discipline for the good of the person's soul than God will. Many are sick and die because they partake Communion unworthily. Excommunication is an act of love, the world sees it as mean because they want to celebrate sin. Ultimately it is the prayer of the Church that a person will come to their senses, repent and be restored to fellowship.

I think most churches would see it as an honour to be selected as his church. I think that we would struggle to find any churches willing to refuse him membership.

Taodeching · Apr 22, 2021

Eftsoon said:
I think most churches would see it as an honour to be selected as his church. I think that we would struggle to find any churches willing to refuse him membership.

Then you don't know churches. Non orthodox churches would because they capitulate to sin, but orthodox churches that follow God's Word would not

fhansen · Apr 22, 2021

Divorce and then entering into an affair is pretty intense stuff by itself. And Jesus did tell the woman caught in adultery, “Neither do I condemn you. Go your way, and from now on do not sin again.” John 8:11

He drew a line at her not remaining in sin. How and at what point should we object to sinful behavior? The Church should be a group of admitted sinners, forgiven of and still working on overcoming sin, and yet not a place where wanton, persistent sin is condoned.

Church elders under fire for threatening to expel mom who left husband, started dating woman

Psalti Chrysostom

Still on vacation!

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Psalti Chrysostom

Still on vacation!

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Still on vacation!

Well-Known Member

Psalti Chrysostom

Well-Known Member

Still on vacation!

Still on vacation!

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Oldbie

Similar threads