The Bible: God's plan for the redemption of humankind? Or... ???

renniks said:

It's not a parable IMO. Lazarus is a real person as far as we know

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Clare73 said:

I hear you. . .but the preponderance of the evidence showing the meaning of aionios ("an age") as used in the NT Scriptures is overwhelming, where it describes both
duration undefined but not endless (Romans 16:25; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 1:2), in only three cases,
and duration undefined because it is endless (Romans 16:16), and in 66 other cases in the NT.

The predominant meaning of aionios used everywhere in the NT, except in the three cases above, is seen in 2 Corinthians 4:18, where it is in contrast to proskairos ("for a season").
Likewise, it is used of persons and things which are in their nature endless, as in
God (Romans 16:26),
God's power (1 Timothy 6:16),
God's glory (1 Peter 5:10),
the Holy Spirit (Hebrews 9:14),
the redemption secured by Christ (Hebrews 9:12),
the resulting salvation of man (Hebrews 5:9),
Christ's kingdom (1 Peter 1:11), which is without end (Luke 1:33),
the life received through faith (John 3:16), whom shall never perish (John 10:28),
the resurrection body (2 Corinthians 5:1), which is immortal (1 Corinthians 15:53), and in which the life of John 3:16 will be finally realized (Matthew 25:46; Titus 1:2),
the sin that will never be forgiven (Mark 3:29),
the judgment of God, from which there is no appeal (Hebrews 6:2),
the fire which is one of the instruments of that judgment (Matthew 18:8; 25:41, Jude 7), which fire is unquenchable (Mark 9:43), and

to the point of restorative vs. retributive:
the punishment of 2 Thessalonians 1:9, is not temporary, but final, and its purpose is not restorative, but retributive.
However, that assertion is refuted by Jesus himself in
Mark 7:13, where Jesus refers to Scripture as "the word of God," in
Matthew 19:4-6, where he refers to the commentary of Moses as "the Creator (God) said, showing that what Scripture says is what God says, and in
Hebrews 4:12, where Scripture is called "the word of God."

And actually, I prefer Jesus' view of the Scriptures, presented in
post #66, Is Christianity an umbrella religion?

This centuries-old fool's errand of unbelief is willing to set Scripture against itself, even when the meaning of aionios as used throughout the NT is overwhelmingly clear.

It's the same "any ole' port in a storm" of unbelief.
Well, actually, limited atonement and predestination are two different things. . .but I won't hold that against you.
While assertion of limited atonement has no consequence for mankind, as does denial of eternal damnation.
It was disingenuous. The average person does not respond to eternal damnation as likeable, pleasant or desirable. It revealed how he relates to Scripture--he rejects what he dislikes, and assumes everyone else uses the same self-serving principle.

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renniks said:

But the new covenant people are who?

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renniks said:

Believers are Israel. Not everyone. The covenant isn't for every person, only those who believe.

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bbbbbbb said:

Ephesians 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

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mkgal1 said:

Matthew 13:34
Jesus spoke all these things to the crowds in parables. He did not tell them anything without using a parable.​

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mkgal1 said:

Why are you asking me when you just said "this is all just basic stuff"?

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mkgal1 said:

Jesus phrased it differently.....He said:

Anyone who is thirsty may come to me!
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renniks said:

A distinction without a difference.

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MMXX said:

Now I'm no expert on this subject. But I know of some people who are too smart and too well educated to have a fool's view of the language used in the Bible. All of them originally believed the eternal torment doctrine and taught it as I recall. So I'm willing to at least consider the other two views.

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Saint Steven said:

No, that's not it.
Anyone who hates God hasn't met him yet. Take as long as you need.

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renniks said:

Sure. Along with warnings about those who don't come.
Jesus doesn’t only reference hell, he describes it in great detail. He says it is a place of eternal torment (Luke 16:23), of unquenchable fire (Mark 9:43), where the worm does not die (Mark 9:48), where people will gnash their teeth in anguish and regret (Matt. 13:42), and from which there is no return, even to warn loved ones (Luke 16:19–31). He calls hell a place of “outer darkness” (Matt. 25:30), comparing it to “Gehenna” (Matt. 10:28), which was a trash dump outside the walls of Jerusalem where rubbish was burned and maggots abounded.

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bbbbbbb said:

Strangely, the vast majority of humanity has no emotional response to God. God is an utterly foreign concept to them, at least God as revealed in the Bible. People no more hate God than they hate you or myself.

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Clare73 said:

Perhaps they were so enamored and occupied in the questions, they forgot to consider the answer.

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renniks said:

I still don't think it's a parable but if it is, it is still talking about a real Hades.

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Saint Steven said:

The Calvinists assert that God is able to save all, but chooses not to. The Arminians counter that He would like to save all, but cannot.

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There is a third position, that God is both WILLING and ABLE to save all

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MMXX said:

The question is, is it talking about the eternal destruction of God's children, or eternal destruction of the sin and death that plagues them?
A first way perspective changes, is when you view sin as a sickness that needs the Great Physician, rather than a crime that needs an executioner.

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Saint Steven said:

Yes, there is something to that. However...
This is the post I was responding to.

renniks said: ↑
So you are left with the same view as calvinists: man ultimately has no self will. Only the illusion of self will that God will eventually bend to his will.

Saint Steven said: ↑
No, that's not it.
Anyone who hates God hasn't met him yet. Take as long as you need.

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