Is the Seventh Day Adventist Church orthodox

tall73 said:

Paul says law in Corinthians....

Click to expand...

Sorry was still editing. Go check in case you want to change your response.

tall73 said:

Paul says law in Corinthians. Paul says law in Galatians.

The context of Ex. 24 are commandments that the people are to do. That is not Job or Isaiah or Genesis.

It is late here. So I will have to continue later.

Click to expand...

Yes though application is to the law and the prophets as shown in 1 Corinthians in reference to Isaiah who is referring to the Torah and the disobedience of Gods' people in disobeying God's covenant in the Torah. Most of the Greek application of law using the Greek word νόμος (nomos) is to the law and the prophets because it is the prophets that refer to God's laws and warn God's people in regards to being obedient to them. Scripture context of course determining if specific laws are the subject matter of conversation (e.g. Romans 13:8-10). Get some rest then we can talk latter. Good night and thanks for the discussion.

tall73 said:

Some esteem every day alike unto the Lord.
Every day would include the Sabbath.

Click to expand...

No sorry, there is no mention of the Sabbath in Romans 14 and the Sabbath is not the topic of discussion. To come up with that interpretation is to read into the scriptures what they do not say or teach as there is no mention of the Sabbath in this chapter or the whole book of Romans. As shown earlier, the seventh day Sabbath is the day that God esteems over other days as shown in Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11. The Sabbath is not a day that most men esteems over other days for eating and not eating (Romans 14:1-6). Luke 18:12 shows days that men esteem over other days in regards to eating and not eating which is consistent with the subject matter of Romans 14. There is no mention of God's 4th commandment Sabbath of the 10 commandments in all of Romans yet you want to read that into Romans 14:1-6 that is talking eating and not eating on days days that men esteem over other days and judging others in this regard. It is not talking about days that God esteems according to the scriptures.

LoveGodsWord said:

No sorry, there is no mention of the Sabbath in Romans 14 and the Sabbath is not the topic of discussion. To come up with that interpretation is to read into the scriptures what they do not say or teach as there is no mention of the Sabbath in this chapter or the whole book of Romans. As shown earlier, the seventh day Sabbath is the day that God esteems over other days as shown in Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11. The Sabbath is not a day that most men esteems over other days for eating and not eating (Romans 14:1-6). Luke 18:12 shows days that men esteem over other days in regards to eating and not eating which is consistent with the subject matter of Romans 14. There is no mention of God's 4th commandment Sabbath of the 10 commandments in all of Romans yet you want to read that into Romans 14:1-6 that is talking about days that men esteem over other days. It is not talking about days that God esteems according to the scriptures.

Click to expand...

Okay LGW these are some questions then,....

where did you get that men esteem fasting (Luke 18:12)? This is a parable Not a designated day given to men for fasting in the bible...

Where in the Bible that "fasting" becomes a day to be esteemed?

What day is fasting day?


Also, fasting is Not even mentioned in Romans 14...

pasifika said:

Okay LGW these are some questions then,....

where did you get that men esteem fasting (Luke 18:12)? This is a parable Not a designated day given to men for fasting in the bible...

Where in the Bible that "fasting" becomes a day to be esteemed?

What day is fasting day?


Also, fasting is Not even mentioned in Romans 14...

Click to expand...

Hello pasifika I asked you questions already so I can understand what you think the scripture I already provided you were saying. You cannot expect me to want to answer your questions if you refuse to answer mine. As we have had many of these discussions already. Here are the questions I asked you again earlier and the scriptures I provided. What did Luke 18:12 mean to you and what does Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11 mean to you and who is esteeming each of these days?

LoveGodsWord said:

No sorry, there is no mention of the Sabbath in Romans 14 and the Sabbath is not the topic of discussion. To come up with that interpretation is to read into the scriptures what they do not say or teach as there is no mention of the Sabbath in this chapter or the whole book of Romans.

Click to expand...

I was making a point with the posting style yesterday. You claimed the issue is not complicated. However, it definitely is. And part of why I wanted to go through every text was so that those who are watching, who have not thought through all the various texts, because it has not necessarily been a big issue on their radar, would have an introduction to the arguments on both sides, and have a better understanding of why it is an ongoing debate.

When I held to the view that the Sabbath was required I was always frustrated in Sabbath discussions because I wanted to discuss the evidence for the Sabbath, but most people are not interested in the nuance. They just drop in Romans 14 or Colossians 2 and then leave the thread.

However, anyone who stays past the first page or two is there because they do see something to investigate, and that there is more to the issue. As an Adventist you are in the minority position. I do not say that to indicate that it means you are incorrect. But it does mean that people already have a bias against your view. So if someone offers to go through every text, that should be a dream for an Adventist wanting to show their point, if they feel the evidence is all there. It means someone is willing to engage on the topic past an initial proof text. And they are willing for a time to suspend their current position to review all the details.

I decided a long time ago I would not be afraid of any Bible text. I wouldn't refuse to look at texts that I knew were strong for the other side of a discussion, because ultimately they all have to make sense together. However, most Sabbath discussions devolve into both sides posting zinger texts and then the other denying. And as a result people are using debate tactics rather than looking at the whole thing again to understand both perspectives.

So for instance, no I don't think that Romans 14 is the strongest text. Though I do think it may well mean just what it says, that some esteem all days alike, encompassing a number of controversies (fasting days, feasts, sabbaths, etc.). However, from a debate perspective it is great, because you can just keep saying over and over that the Sabbath is a day, and other person has no response. So the more they try to bring in nuance, the less people think they are being straight-forward.

Now the text, as you mention, does not mention the Sabbath. So would it be the best primary verse? No. But that is why there is a difference between going through all the data carefully, and just debating. If you put your best few texts and say "I have shown you the Scrpitures, now you must believe it", that is not being fair with all the evidence, and it is not likely to change any minds or cause much reflection. It will just wind up with both sides trying to steal the focus to put forward their best few texts and make the other person look silly trying to defend against them.

When I said it is complicated, I meant it. It really is complicated. There are overlapping large scale narratives about he covenant, the law, the nature of Israel, etc. These are full-scale debates in their own right, with tons of data points to understand. And in the middle of a debate, even if you have thought through many aspects, even one text you had not fully realized the import of can challenge your view, and require a re-think. But if we are just out for the win, then we are reluctant to take the time to think it through that we should.

And then you have many specific texts. And some of those texts have context that is enormously complicated, such as Colossians 2. Whole threads have looked at just that one text alone.

So if you just want people to give a summary statement and then the other side assails that, and the first side defends that, it is not conducive to actually looking at the text.

However, if everyone in the discussion decides to go through every text, then there is no hiding from the "best" proof texts. But there is also a willingness to engage on all the material and to think through the details.

pasifika said:

Okay LGW these are some questions then,....

where did you get that men esteem fasting (Luke 18:12)? This is a parable Not a designated day given to men for fasting in the bible...

Where in the Bible that "fasting" becomes a day to be esteemed?

What day is fasting day?


Also, fasting is Not even mentioned in Romans 14...

Click to expand...

It is a parable, however, the response of the pharisee is referencing a known trend in that day.

Now this is not Scripture, but it does clarify the issue of fasting twice a week:


CHURCH FATHERS: The Didache

But let not your fasts be with the hypocrites; Matthew 6:16 for they fast on the second and fifth day of the week; but fast on the fourth day and the Preparation. Didache, Chapter 8


Didache - Wikipedia


The text shows the growing division between Christians and Jewish adherents, with them fasting on different days to not have that in common.

However, the larger issue, is that the theme of Romans 14 is not judging people on disputable matters, and there are two issues presented, one of which is the question of some thinking one day is better, and the other those who eat only vegetables.

LoveGodsWord said:

Hello pasifika I asked you questions already so I can understand what you think the scripture I already provided you were saying. You cannot expect me to want to answer your questions if you refuse to answer mine. As we have had many of these discussions already. Here are the questions I asked you again earlier and the scriptures I provided. What did Luke 18:12 mean to you and what does Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11 mean to you and who is esteeming each of these days?

Click to expand...

Your question is avoiding the point a bit. The reason one esteems a day is because they think the Lord wants them to. Hence they observe it to the Lord.

Others also see every day alike, but feel they are also in step with what the Lord wants.

That is why it is a disputable matter.

LoveGodsWord said:

Yes though application is to the law and the prophets as shown in 1 Corinthians in reference to Isaiah who is referring to the Torah and the disobedience of Gods' people in disobeying God's covenant in the Torah. Most of the Greek application of law using the Greek word νόμος (nomos) is to the law and the prophets because it is the prophets that refer to God's laws and warn God's people in regards to being obedient to them. Scripture context of course determining if specific laws are the subject matter of conversation (e.g. Romans 13:8-10). Get some rest then we can talk latter. Good night and thanks for the discussion.

Click to expand...

The quote is of Isaiah, and the reference to the law. The phase used does not appear in the law. Now Isaiah addressing disobedience to the law still does not make a quote of Isaiah a quote of the law.

The point is just that there is variability in how they speak of
law
law and prophets
law, prophets and psalms, etc.

But they are referring to the Scriptures of the time.

And in the only case where I can definitively say that it is referring to Genesis the term "law" is used as a rhetorical device.

Galatians 4:21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are g]">[g]the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written:

“Rejoice, O barren,
You who do not bear!
Break forth and shout,
You who are not in labor!
For the desolate has many more children
Than she who has a husband.”


Paul says, well if you want to make a big deal of the law, let's look at the law.

Now by your logic we could say that Paul is using the world "law" because Abraham's two sons are being used as an analogy to discuss the two covenants, one of which is clearly given in the law from Moses.

Now do I think Genesis is in the law? Yes. Though I am not sure the book of the law in Deut. 31 is necessarily the first five books of the Bible. I think it more likely it is a list of commandments that were stated by God for the people within the five books, and put in a straight-forward way to read to the people, based on the surrounding context where they agree to all the Lord commands, and the commands are read to them. Some think it may just be the book of Deuteronomy. Or it could be all five as well. It just doesn't spell it out.

And at times they use the law to refer to all the Scriptures.

Arguably the same is occurring in John 15.

Joh 15:25 But the word that is written in their Law must be fulfilled: ‘They hated me without a cause.'

Multiple psalms use this phrase.

Now do I think it is a huge issue either way whether Genesis was included there? No. However, I wanted to highlight that everyone presses arguments that they do not have all the evidence for. Bob talked about inferences. But everyone is making them. Some are certainly warranted. However, we should be up front about what proof we have, or do not have, and when we are relying on something other than Scripture (Jewish understanding that Moses wrote all five books, preserved as the Torah, etc.)

There is evidence to back the position. But it is not as clear as we would like.

Now the lesson to be learned in pressing these debates to the nth degree is that we tend to dig in our heels when we formulate or discuss doctrine from a combative view point. When we are trying to prove a point we may press the evidence more than it can sustain.

In the same way some are bothered by statements that do not appear to have been written by Moses. But Scripture says what it says. So we have to find some way to make sense of it all. And sometimes we have to admit we don't know all the particulars.

So I agree Moses wrote the first five books, other than probably a few phrases. And it is possible they took what Moses wrote and integrated it into a fuller treatment later. That doesn't cause any issue for me as far as inspiration or Luke wouldn't be inspired either.

But we can't be afraid to have the conversation to understand what is provable, and what is our best understanding.

And that is complicated for Adventists. Because if you view Ellen White's writings as a source of truth, then once you are aware of her commentary on a situation you tend to come at things with that starting point.

That is why I mentioned initially that once you accept Ellen White's writings as inspired it becomes very difficult not to accept her position when she comments on a particular scriptural point. Even if she said not to. Because inspiration is inspiration. So even if you say the Scriptures are a closed canon, and separate, you still have to deal with inspiration being what it is.

So when you were not aware of her comments about Job, you didn't have any idea that Adventists thought that.

However, once it was brought to your attention that she said it, then you want to investigate. And you find that some Jewish viewpoints in the far past hold that. But you may also find that some didn't.

Is it wrong to point that out? No. But it is certainly not Scripture. And the whole reason you were looking into the point is because of the starting point provided by Ellen White, because you view her as inspired.

Now for an Adventist is it a problem to accept what Ellen White says, even if it is not spelled out in the Bible? No, not if they feel she passed tests of a prophet.

However, if that Adventist then goes to argue the point with others, what evidence are they going to use? And how far should they press it?

tall73 said:

I was making a point with the posting style yesterday. You claimed the issue is not complicated. However, it definitely is. And part of why I wanted to go through every text was so that those who are watching, who have not thought through all the various texts, because it has not necessarily been a big issue on their radar, would have an introduction to the arguments on both sides, and have a better understanding of why it is an ongoing debate.

Click to expand...

I do understand what you are saying and where you are coming from. When I said the scriptures are not complicated I believe if we turn away from God and His Word and His promises to be our guide and teacher they can be complicated if we turn to men for an understanding of Gods' truth or we try to read into the scriptures what the scriptures do not say or teach.

For me I believe the only way we can know the truth of God's Word is to seek Jesus for a knowledge of the truth of Gods' Word by claiming his promises and seek God through his Word (John 14:26; John 16:13; John 7:17; John 8:31-32; 1 John 2:27) which is a part of God's new covenant promise to those who seek him (Hebrews 8:11). We cannot know the truth of Gods' Word unless God is our guide and teacher and we seek Him for it through his Word according to the scriptures.

According to the scriptures I believe we are living in the last days and God's judgement are beginning to fall on our world. Now we have the world-wide pandemic. Every day we hear of other natural disasters happening more and more. Fires, floods, storms, earthquakes, tsunamis are more and more common and frequent is all locations around the world every year. God is calling us all to wake up! He is coming. Our probation here will soon be over and no one knows when that will be.

MY PERSONAL TESTIMONY

I would like to share with you my personal testimony so you might know more about me and my personal experience in seeking God for a knowledge of the truth of His Word. Before I decided to join any church I remember reading my bible at home. At that time I was thinking to go and join a church until one day I read the scripture from Matthew 24:24 from Jesus saying that in the last days "there will be many false prophets and false Christs that if it were possible they should deceive Gods' very elect."

I was just reading my bible at home but these scripture seem to trouble me very much at that time I remember because I was thinking of going out to join a Church somewhere but I did not know which one. When I read these scriptures in Matthew 24:24 I believe God showed me their interpretation at that time as in the last days before He returns there would be many false prophets being messengers or teachers claiming they were from God that have false teachings and that the false Christs represented false Christian Churches (e.g. Christ being the head of the body which is the church - Ephesians 5:23; Colossians 1:18) and that many would be lost by following what these Churches were teachings.

Then as I was considering these scriptures one day, I believe God showed me all the Churches of the world all professing to be the chosen ones of God. Today in a recent consensus I remember reading that there is today somewhere around 30-40,000 different Churches all professing to be Gods true Church that have the truth of Gods' Word? Now I do no know how true those figures are but to me even if there was 20 churches all professing to be Gods' true Church that is 19 too many right?

So I was troubled because I did not want to follow false teachings and be lost to God. I prayed to God saying dear God help me. How am I going to know who your true Church is? I barely know your word and how am I ever going to find who your true Church is? I wanted to follow God but I knew I was never going to find Him if he did not help me and if he did not help me it would be impossible for me to find the truth of His Word. Looking back now with tears in my eyes I see how God answered my prayers and was with me guiding me and teaching me through His Word.

Not long after I prayed to God, as I was continuing reading His Word I came across some promises from His Word that really helped me to have believe God was leading and guiding me. These promises seemed to speak to me again just like the scripture from Matthew 24:24 that troubled me into thinking how am I ever going to know the truth of God's Word?

These scriptures that really spoke to me next were...

John 14:26 [26], But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I have said to you.

John 16:13 [13], However, when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.

John 7:17 [17], If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

John 8:31-32 [31], Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If you continue in my word, then are you my disciples indeed, [32], And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

....................

When I read these scriptures, it was like God knew my thoughts and how I was feeling and was talking to me through his Word personally. I now had hope and was happy and relieved that God promises to be my guide and teacher to help me to know the truth of His Word and that I did not need to be worried if I trusted Him about being deceived into not knowing what His truth is. I knew I had a part to play and that was to seek Him and claim His promises through His Word (John 8:31-36).

I started claiming His promises above as I was reading His Word and slowly but surely started learning more of His Word. I asked God, praying dear God thank you for these promises but who is your true Church? I know I cannot find who your true Church is unless you guide me and teach me and show me who they are?

I continued over some time reading God's Word and found these scriptures which seemed to stay with me that seemed to describe who Gods Church was according to the scriptures here...

[1.] God’s people are described as God’s sheep that hear believe and follow Gods Word *John 10:26-27

[2.] God’s people are described as God’s saints that keep the commandments of God and the faith or teachings of Jesus *Revelation 14:12.

[3.] God’s people are described as those who the dragon (devil) is making war with because they keep the commandments of God *Revelation 12:17

[4.] God’s people are described as having the testimony of JESUS which is the Spirit of Prophecy. They know the end day prophecies *Revelation 19:10

[5.] God’s people are described as being blessed because they washed their robes in the blood of the lamb *1 Peter 1:18-19; Revelation 7:14; Revelation 12:11; Revelation 22:14

[6.] God’s people are described as being blessed because they keep Gods commandments and receive eternal life *Revelation 22:14

[7.] God’s people are described as being born again and do not practice sin (breaking Gods’ commandments) *1 John 3:6-9

[8.] The different between the children of God and the children of the devil is that the children of God do not practice sin (breaking God’s commandments) and the children of the devil do *1 John 3:6-10.

……………………….

The question I believe we all must consider is how do we know we know God and are Gods saints according to the scriptures? Well Gods saints are in every Church who are living up to all the light of the knowledge of Gods’ Word that God has revealed to them and in times of ignorance when we do not know any better God winks at but when God gives us a knowledge of His Word he calls all men everywhere to believe and follow it *Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31; James 4:17.

Many do not know that the religious teachers of the world of fallen away from God’s Word in order to follow man made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God. BABYLON is described as being fallen. The mother church and her daughters *Revelation 14:8; Revelation 17:1-5. She has changed times and law *Danial 7:25 and supplanted her own day of worship for which there is no scripture in place of God’s 4th commandment which is one of God’s 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4.

God has his people in all of these Church’s and is calling his people out of Babylon from following the traditions and teachings of men back to the pure Word of God. *Revelation 18:1-5. The hour is coming and now is that the true worshipers will worship God in Spirit and in truth. God is a Spirit and those who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in truth. *John 10:16; John 4:23-24.

What is the test to know if we know God?

1 John 2:3-4 [3], And HEREBY WE KNOW THAT WE KNOW HIM, IF WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS.

[4], HE THAT SAITH, I KNOW HIM, AND KEEPETH NOT HIS COMMANDMENTS, IS A LIAR, AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IN HIM

In times of ignorance God winks at but when he gives us a knowledge of the truth of his Word calls all men everywhere to believe and follow. God’s sheep hear His voice (the Word) and follow it.

...............

SUMMARY: I became a Sabbath keeper and SDA because I believe God guided me to this Church through His Word and this is my testimony! God's Church through faith according to the scriptures keep all the commandments of God not some of them according to the scriptures and this is the difference between 99% of all the Churches of the Word. - YES the Sabbath of God's 4th commandment! 99% of the Churches of the Word are not following God's Word. God is calling His people out to return to His Word and follow Him in Spirit and in truth *Revelation 18:4. The above is pretty much a big part of my personal testimony. Today God is changing this sinners heart to love him and keep His commandments. I do not follow God to be saved but because I love God because he is saving me every day as I seek him and believe him through his Word.

God bless.

tall73 said:

The quote is of Isaiah, and the reference to the law. The phase used does not appear in the law. Now Isaiah addressing disobedience to the law still does not make a quote of Isaiah a quote of the law.

Click to expand...

Perhaps we might see this a little differently. I see application of nomos in 1 Corinthians 14:21 with application Isaiah as all the scripture of the old testament law prophets and Psalms. I posted the commentary earlier and also we looked at Isaiah already in detail to show that the scriptures in Isaiah were in reference to God's people not believing and following Gods' Word and breaking His Torah (covenant) and warning them to return to God and His Word through obedience. I will also add to the above the Lexicon comments from Thayer which might be of interest here below which also supports what has been already shared with you earlier. I have only added sections # 4 in Thayer and section 5b in Abbots and Smith as these are specifically dealing with 1 Corinthians 14:21.

................

Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Thayer
G3551 — νόμος
4. by metonymy ὁ νόμος, the name of the more important part (i. e. the Pentateuch), is put for the entire collection of the sacred books of the O. T.: John 7:49; 10:34 (Psa 81:6); John 12:34 (Psa 109:4; (Theod.) Dan 2:44; 7:14); John 15:25 (Psa 34:19; Rom 3:19; 1Co 14:21 (Isa 28:11f; so 2 Macc. 2:18, where cf. Grimm); ὁ νόμος καί οἱ προφῆται, Matt 11:13; John 1:46; Acts 13:15; 24:14; 28:23; Rom 3:21 (2 Macc. 15:9); equivalent to the system of morals taught in the O. T., Matt 5:17; 7:12; 22:40; ὁ νόμος (οἱ) προφῆται καί ψαλμοί, the religious dispensation contained in the O. T., Luke 24:44 (ὁ νόμος, οἱ προφῆται καί τά ἀλλά πατριά βιβλία, proleg. to Sir.). Paul's doctrine concerning ὁ νόμος is exhibited by (besides others) Weiss, Biblical Theol. §§ 71, 72; Pfleiderer, Paulinismus, pp. 69f. (English translation, i., p. 68f; A. Zahn, Das Gesetz Gottes nach d. Lehre u. Erfahrung d. Apestel Paulus, Halle 1876; R. Tiling, Die Paulinische Lehre vom νόμος nach d. vier Hauptbriefen, as above with Dorpat, 1878). νόμος does not occur in the following N. T. books: 2 Corinthians, Colossians, Thessalonians, 2 Timothy, Peter, Jude, John, and Revelation.

.................

Greek Lexicon Of The New Testament, Abbott-Smith - G3551

νόμος, - ου, ὁ

5. By meton., of the books which contain the law;
(a) of the Pentateuch: Matt 12:5, John 1:45, al.; ὁ ν . καὶ οἱ προφῆται, Matt 5:17, Luke 16:16, al.; ὁ ν . καὶ προφῆται κ . ψαλμοί, 24:44;
(b) of the OT Scriptures in general (as Heb. H8452): John 10:34; 12:34; 15:25, 1Co 14:21, al.

.................

The Lexicons view is also that the use of "In the law" as applied to 1 Corinthians 14:21 is to mentonymy or figure of speech or example referring to all the OT writings. The example here in the writing of Isaiah as already shown was to the application of God's people not hearing his Word or following it and breaking His Torah.

.................

You also raised some good points in the rest of your post as to show how we all perceive things when discussing the scriptures differently and also can dig in to our positions not being opened to anything else outside of what we believe which I generally agree with. I will only state that I do not see any of these things as problems for me personally. Of course I do not know everything and I do not believe everyone does in regards to Gods' Word and believe we will be forever learning. What I do know though is how and where to find the truth of Gods' Word so I do not feel this is a problem for me personally and that is only in seeking it through Jesus as stated earlier by claiming his promises and seeking him for a knowledge of the truth of Gods' Word asking that he will be our guide and teacher.

Of course if we are not doing this then it can be a problem if we are seeking to know the truth of Gods' Word outside of Gods' appointed ways. The warnings are given to us in the gospels when it was the very experts in the law and the scriptures and the very scholars of the day in the time of Jesus who were the most instrumental in rejecting his Word and putting him to death to seek to silence His Word that they did not believe.

Yet these same people claimed to be the educated in knowing the truth of God's Word. How God made of nothing the wisdom of the wise. We cannot know the truth of God's Word unless we prayerfully seek him who's Words come from asking him to be our guide and teacher.

God bless.

tall73 said:

It is a parable, however, the response of the pharisee is referencing a known trend in that day.

Now this is not Scripture, but it does clarify the issue of fasting twice a week:


CHURCH FATHERS: The Didache

But let not your fasts be with the hypocrites; Matthew 6:16 for they fast on the second and fifth day of the week; but fast on the fourth day and the Preparation. Didache, Chapter 8


Didache - Wikipedia


The text shows the growing division between Christians and Jewish adherents, with them fasting on different days to not have that in common.

However, the larger issue, is that the theme of Romans 14 is not judging people on disputable matters, and there are two issues presented, one of which is the question of some thinking one day is better, and the other those who eat only vegetables.

Click to expand...

Thanks Tall, I don't know there were division between Jewish and christians believers in regards to what days they fast weekly as you pointed out...

But in regards to Romans 14 yes I agree it based on disputable matters such as food, drink, "special" or "sacred" day (ie Sabbath day, religious holidays ) in which Paul also pointed out in Colossians 2:16...

Colossians 2:16..Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, new moon celebrations or Sabbath day...

LoveGodsWord said:

SUMMARY: I became a Sabbath keeper and SDA because I believe God guided me to this Church through His Word and this is my testimony! God's Church through faith according to the scriptures keep all the commandments of God not some of them according to the scriptures and this is the difference between 99% of all the Churches of the Word. - YES the Sabbath of God's 4th commandment! 99% of the Churches of the Word are not following God's Word. God is calling His people out to return to His Word and follow Him in Spirit and in truth *Revelation 18:4. The above is pretty much a big part of my personal testimony. Today God is changing this sinners heart to love him and keep His commandments. I do not follow God to be saved but because I love God because he is saving me every day as I seek him and believe him through his Word.

God bless.

Click to expand...

If you actually believe that the SDA is "God's Church through faith according to the scriptures keep all the commandments of God not some of them according to the scriptures." then you are greatly deceived.

pasifika said:

Thanks Tall, I don't know there were division between Jewish and christians believers in regards to what days they fast weekly as you pointed out...

But in regards to Romans 14 yes I agree it based on disputable matters such as food, drink, "special" or "sacred" day (ie Sabbath day, religious holidays ) in which Paul also pointed out in Colossians 2:16...

Colossians 2:16..Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, new moon celebrations or Sabbath day...

Click to expand...

There is no Sabbath mentioned at all in Romans 14 it is talking about eating and not eating on days that men esteem over other days and judging others in this regard, not what days that God esteems. Colossians 2:16 is talking about the sabbaths is the feast days not God's 4th commandment of the 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken.

bbbbbbb said:

If you actually believe that the SDA is "God's Church through faith according to the scriptures keep all the commandments of God not some of them according to the scriptures." then you are greatly deceived.

Click to expand...

I would say that the scriptures who define who God's people are as His saints and children in 1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:4-10; Matthew 22:36-40; 1 John 5:2-4; Romans 3:31; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14; Matthew 7:21-23 all disagree with you as does pretty much all of God's Word. Of course even in the SDA Church not all are believing or following Gods' Word so this is included in what was shared through the scriptures earlier. The scriptures provided above and elsewhere of course are Gods' Words not mine which you deny with your words that are not God's but yours. What is it in these scriptures that you disagree with?

As posted in the very post you are quoting from I believe God's people are in every Church but of course if we are being honest with out selves and the scriptures written by Jesus in Matthew 24:24 not all the Churches (30 to 40,000 of them) all have the truth of Gods' Word now do they?

Jesus says the hour is coming and now is that the true worshipers will worship God in Spirit and in truth as God is a Spirit and those who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in truth *Mark 2:27-28. I am not deceived in sharing the scriptures with you as it is the scripture that are the truth of God's Word that bear witness to my words that they are not mine but Gods' Word (see John 3:34; John 6:63; John 17:17; 1 John 2:3-4). The Church's of the world according to the scriptures have fallen away from God's Word in order to follow their own traditions and teachings *Revelation 14:7-12; Revelation 17:5; Revelation 18:1-5.

God is calling his people out from following man-made teachings and traditions back to worship Him in Spirit and in truth back to His Word. God's sheep wherever they may be according to the scriptures will hear His Voice (the Word) and follow him. Those who do not hear His voice according to Jesus are not His sheep and will not follow according to John 10:26-27.

Who now should we believe and follow; God or man? For me only Gods' Word is true and we should believe and follow them *Romans 3:4; Acts of the Apostles 5:29.

tall73 said:

Now that we worked that out, can you explain why Seventh-day Adventists believe Moses wrote Job?

Click to expand...

So then "these guys" are also Adventists? seriously?

Moses and Job.

And also these guys?
https://bibleask.org/wrote-book-job/


And also these guys?
How do we know that Moses wrote the Book of Job? - Quora

There are a few reasons why scholars accept Moses as the author of this book. Firstly, note that the practices mentioned in the first chapter of Job (and God’s acceptance of Job as a true worshiper) point to patriarchal times rather than to the later period extending from 1513 BCE when God dealt with Israel under the Mosaic Law. (See Amos 3:2, Ephesians 2:12). Job led a very long and full life, and it would appear that the book covers the period between 1657 BCE and 1473 BCE (the year of Moses’ death). The book was probably completed by Moses sometime after Job’s death while the Israelites were still in the wilderness (see Job 1:8, 42:16,17).

Both Jewish and early Christian scholars attribute the writing of Job to Moses. The style of Hebrew poetry used in Job makes it evident that it was an original composition in Hebrew, which was Moses’ language. The portions in prose bear stronger resemblance to the Pentateuch than to any other writings in the canonical Bible. Consider, too, that the Hebrews were “entrusted with the sacred pronouncements of God (Romans 3:1,2), which shows that the writer must have been Hebrew.

Click to expand...

=========================================
BTW "Moses wrote the book of Job" is not one of the 28 Fundamental beliefs of Seventh-day Adventists and never has been... as you probably know.


How does this question even come up?

LoveGodsWord said:

I have no idea it is the first time I have ever heard some Adventists believe Moses wrote the book of Job. All I could find on authorship of Job is Ancient Jewish writings (teaching) ascribes the book of Job to be written by Moses. Now does it matter?

Click to expand...

The question seems to come right out of left field... not sure what the point is.

In addition to the sampling of sources that also teach this -- as I posted above -- so also does it appear that God gave that same message to Ellen White - but why something with so much non-SDA background to it should come up as "why do SDAs say Moses wrote Job" is ... not clear to me.

This idea is not original with SDAs and is not unique with SDAs and is not even one of our doctrines.

tall73 said:

Some esteem every day alike unto the Lord.

Every day would include the Sabbath.

Click to expand...

Rom 14 says that one man esteems/observes one day above another while another man esteems/observes them all... he who observes the day observes it to the Lord.

Paul says to esteem/observe even one pagan day is to forfeit salvation " I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain"

In Gal 4:
8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are not gods. 9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elementary principles, to which you want to be enslaved all over again? 10 You meticulously observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.

So then Paul is not teaching that Christians can "observe" all 365 days each year.

The observable days - are only those annual holy days of Lev 23 where one observes one above the others and another observes them all. Pagan days are not allowed into that list according to Paul

bbbbbbb said:

If you actually believe that the SDA is "God's Church through faith according to the scriptures keep all the commandments of God not some of them according to the scriptures." then you are greatly deceived.

Click to expand...

I believe the Bible "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12
"What matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
Rom 8:4-11 Paul says the lost "do not submit to the LAW of God - neither indeed CAN they"

I always choose to "believe the Bible"

pasifika said:

Hello LGW, so you don't consider the 7th day Sabbath as "special " compare to other day? That is the point of Romans 14:5,6...

Click to expand...

No it isn't. Romans 14 is dealing with the bible approved annual holy days of Lev 23 in which "one person observes one day above the others while another person observes them all.. he who observes the day observes it to the Lord".

This refers to the existing OT practice where only 3 of the Lev 23 list of holy days were mandatory and the rest were optional. It is "not new" in the NT.

LoveGodsWord said:

There is no Sabbath mentioned at all in Romans 14 it is talking about eating and not eating on days that men esteem over other days and judging others in this regard, not what days that God esteems. Colossians 2:16 is talking about the sabbaths is the feast days not God's 4th commandment of the 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken.

Click to expand...

Yes the Sabbath is not mentioned but it is considered by Jews as "sacred day" compare to other days...the Gentiles don't have sacred days and I think that is what Paul is saying in Romans 14:5,6

Unless you can prove that when someone "fast" (Luke 18:12) that day also considered a "sacred day"..