Is the Seventh Day Adventist Church orthodox

[SabbathBlessings]

Of course you should not judge. One man does not observe, and esteems all days alike, and does so to the Lord.

Why would you judge that when Paul says not to judge another's servant?

Now, I think people in many different denominations keep the Lord's commandments. And it will be Him who judges, which we are all thankful for.

However, in the church if someone is sexually immoral, etc. then we are to judge that per I Corinthians 5. Just not disputable matters like observing days.

Do you think the 4th commandment still applies today?

 

[tall73]

No, we are in the new covenant now not the old. The annual sabbaths of Leviticus 23 are not the same as the weekly Sabbath of Gods' 4th commandment that are every "seventh day" of the week outside of the annual Feast days

Yes, we are in the new covenant. One does not observe days but esteems all alike. And he does that to the Lord.

and is one of the 10 commandments that define what sin is in the new covenant *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4.

The Sabbath commandment is a sign with Israel, and has sacrifices associated with it, and was listed in the appointed times.

It also related to their being brought out of Egypt, as well as Creation.

And in the new covenant some esteem all days alike and do not observe days.

Please re-read my posts to you in regards to Romans 14. It is not talking about the Sabbath. Your reading the Sabbath into the scriptures when the scriptures say nothing about the Sabbath.

And you are trying to read any other day into it other than the Sabbath, even though they are not stated. I wonder why?

Because it says one does not observe and thinks all days alike?

 

[tall73]

Do you think the 4th commandment still applies today?

I think some observe it to the Lord, and some do not observe, also to the Lord, just as Romans said.

By the way, I offered to go through all the verses on the Sabbath and LGW did not think that would hold people's interest.

However, I think that the weekly Sabbath is included in Colossians 2 if you want to discuss that. And therefore it is not a matter of judgment. It is a shadow, as part of God's sign with Israel in the covenant at Sinai.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I think some observe it to the Lord, and some do not observe, also to the Lord, just as Romans said.

By the way, I offered to go through all the verses on the Sabbath and LGW did not think that would hold people's interest.

However, I think that the weekly Sabbath is included in Colossians 2 if you want to discuss that. And therefore it is not a matter of judgment. It is a shadow, as part of God's sign with Israel in the covenant at Sinai.

So I guess your answer is no regarding the 4th commandment. Are the other 9 in your opinion applicable today? Just curious where you stand.

I really enjoy the conversation you have going with @BobRyan and @LoveGodsWord so not trying to butt in, and will be bowing out soon to let you all continue.

 

[tall73]

So I guess your answer is no regarding the 4th commandment.

My answer is that it is applicable to those who observe it, and do so to the Lord, as part of the sign given to Israel.

In Acts 21 the Jewish believers went on observing all the law.

Some gentiles may observe it as well. And some may observe the feasts.

Are the other 9 in your opinion applicable today? Just curious where you stand.

I am not sure if you have read all of the thread. However, there are way more than just 9 applicable. The law was not just the ten.

The dispute here is whether the Sabbath, an appointed time, a sign with Israel, with sacrifices, and with part of the rationale being their being saved from Egypt (with the rest being in honor of God's rest at creation), is moral law for all under the new covenant.

I would hold it is not required of all. But those who observe it do it unto the Lord.

I certainly don't see observing it as bad. And there can be a blessing in it as well.

I really enjoy the conversation you have going with @BobRyan and @LoveGodsWord so not trying to butt in, and will be bowing out soon to let you continue.

You are welcome to present any insights you have. Hopefully we can all learn together.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

My answer is that it is applicable to those who observe it, and do so to the Lord, as part of the sign given to Israel.

In Acts 21 the Jewish believers went on observing all the law.

Some gentiles may observe it as well. And some may observe the feasts.



I am not sure if you have read all of the thread. However, there are way more than just 9 applicable. The law was not just the ten.

The dispute here is whether the Sabbath, an appointed time, a sign with Israel, with sacrifices, and with part of the rationale being their being saved from Egypt (with the rest being in honor of God's rest at creation), is moral law for all under the new covenant.

I would hold it is not required of all. But those who observe it do it unto the Lord.

I certainly don't see observing it as bad. And there can be a blessing in it as well.




You are welcome to present any insights you have. Hopefully we can all learn together.

Agree, there are more laws that are applicable than just the Ten. God seemed to have made the Ten special, considering they are the only commandments He personally wrote and were kept in the ark of the covenant in the most holy of the temple. I just have a hard time reconciling that God would separate the Ten after saying they are a eternal covenant. Psalm 89:34, Psalm 111:7, 8 God says He is unchanging and the only commandment we should forget is the one He asked us to Remember? Knowing this, I just don't see how Colossians 2 can be about the seventh day Sabbath, when all that is mentioned is food and drink and that is more inline with the Sabbath(s) festivals, not God's holy weekly Sabbath that started from creation Genesis 2:3 and will be eternal on the New Earth Isaiah 66:23. I don't think Paul is speaking about the seventh day Sabbath either regarding when he says don't esteem one day above the other and goes on to say the only thing that really matters is keeping God's commandments, which includes the 4th. Jesus said Sabbath was made for us (man) Mathew 2:27. I just can't come up with the same conclusion as you do when it comes to the 4th commandment, God's holy Sabbath day.

 

[tall73]

Agree, there are more laws that are applicable than just the Ten. God seemed to have made the Ten special, considering they are the only commandments He personally wrote and were kept in the ark of the covenant in the most holy of the temple.

Yes, He did make the ten special as they formed the covenant words, on the tables of the covenant. But He also made the Sabbath special among all of them as a sign with Israel:

Exo 31:12 And the LORD said to Moses,
Exo 31:13 “You are to speak to the people of Israel and say, ‘Above all you shall keep my Sabbaths, for this is a sign between me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I, the LORD, sanctify you.
Exo 31:14 You shall keep the Sabbath, because it is holy for you. Everyone who profanes it shall be put to death. Whoever does any work on it, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
Exo 31:15 Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day shall be put to death.
Exo 31:16 Therefore the people of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, observing the Sabbath throughout their generations, as a covenant forever.
Exo 31:17 It is a sign forever between me and the people of Israel that in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.’”
Exo 31:18 And he gave to Moses, when he had finished speaking with him on Mount Sinai, the two tablets of the testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.

It was a sign with His people Israel in the heart of the covenant document with them.

The covenant was specific to Israel. And even in the ten commandments we see this.

Exo 20:2 “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.
Exo 20:3 “You shall have no other gods before me.

And some of the details are contextual to that people. If they obey Father and Mother they will be long in the land that God is giving them--the promised land.

Exo 20:12 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land that the LORD your God is giving you.

Everything God commanded Israel was required--even those we think of as ceremonial. He commanded it of them.

But in the new covenant, while it is with Israel, He did not require gentiles to be circumcised and keep the law of Moses per Acts 15.

That doesn't mean they are not under moral requirements. However, the Sabbath is a sign, with Israel, an appointed time, with sacrifices associated with it. It is a sign of their relationship to the Lord in the heart of their covenant document.

In the NT the law is written on the heart, and the mind. And all moral law still applies. But Romans indicates observing of days is not part of that.

And Colossians 2 points out the appointed times were shadow.

I just have a hard time reconciling that God would separate the Ten after saying they are a eternal covenant. Psalm 89:34,

Psalm 89 is the covenant with David.

Psa 89:3 You have said, “I have made a covenant with my chosen one; I have sworn to David my servant:
Psa 89:4 ‘I will establish your offspring forever, and build your throne for all generations.’” Selah


Psa 89:29 I will establish his offspring forever and his throne as the days of the heavens.
Psa 89:30 If his children forsake my law and do not walk according to my rules,
Psa 89:31 if they violate my statutes and do not keep my commandments,
Psa 89:32 then I will punish their transgression with the rod and their iniquity with stripes,
Psa 89:33 but I will not remove from him my steadfast love or be false to my faithfulness.
Psa 89:34 I will not violate my covenant or alter the word that went forth from my lips.

It was kept, Jesus is the King on David's throne.

Psalm 111:7, 8 God says He is unchanging

Psa 111:7 The works of his hands are faithful and just; all his precepts are trustworthy;
Psa 111:8 they are established forever and ever, to be performed with faithfulness and uprightness.
Psa 111:9 He sent redemption to his people; he has commanded his covenant forever. Holy and awesome is his name!

God commanded circumcision as an everlasting covenant with the descendants of Abraham:

Gen 17:9 And God said to Abraham, “As for you, you shall keep my covenant, you and your offspring after you throughout their generations.
Gen 17:10 This is my covenant, which you shall keep, between me and you and your offspring after you: Every male among you shall be circumcised.
Gen 17:11 You shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and you.
Gen 17:12 He who is eight days old among you shall be circumcised. Every male throughout your generations, whether born in your house or bought with your money from any foreigner who is not of your offspring,
Gen 17:13 both he who is born in your house and he who is bought with your money, shall surely be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant.
Gen 17:14 Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.”

Yet in the new covenant God did not require physical circumcision of the gentile believers (Acts 15, etc.).

However, Col. 2 tells us that there is a spiritual circumcision that applies. And there was always meant to be an inner circumcision of the heart pert the OT.

God also required the Day of Atonement observation as an eternal statute with Israel.

Lev 23:26 And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying,
Lev 23:27 “Now on the tenth day of this seventh month is the Day of Atonement. It shall be for you a time of holy convocation, and you shall afflict yourselves and present a food offering to the LORD.
Lev 23:28 And you shall not do any work on that very day, for it is a Day of Atonement, to make atonement for you before the LORD your God.
Lev 23:29 For whoever is not afflicted on that very day shall be cut off from his people.
Lev 23:30 And whoever does any work on that very day, that person I will destroy from among his people.
Lev 23:31 You shall not do any work. It is a statute forever throughout your generations in all your dwelling places.
Lev 23:32 It shall be to you a Sabbath of solemn rest, and you shall afflict yourselves. On the ninth day of the month beginning at evening, from evening to evening shall you keep your Sabbath.

Yet in the new covenant it is a shadow.

and the only commandment we should forget is the one He asked us to Remember?

How is it the only one that you are not keeping? Do you observe the Day of Atonement?

The sabbath command said remember because it was an appointed time. It is an appointment.

However, in Acts 21 the Jewish believers continued to keep all of the law. And they continued to keep the Sabbath, likely in view of it being a sign with them. But the gentiles were not required to be circumcised and keep the law of Moses. But this does not make them free of moral law.

 

[tall73]

Knowing this, I just don't see how Colossians 2 can be about the seventh day Sabbath, when all that is mentioned is food and drink and that is more inline with the Sabbath(s) festivals,

Num 28:1 The LORD spoke to Moses, saying,
Num 28:2 “Command the people of Israel and say to them, ‘My offering, my food for my food offerings, my pleasing aroma, you shall be careful to offer to me at its appointed time.’
Num 28:3 And you shall say to them, This is the food offering that you shall offer to the LORD: two male lambs a year old without blemish, day by day, as a regular offering.
Num 28:4 The one lamb you shall offer in the morning, and the other lamb you shall offer at twilight;
Num 28:5 also a tenth of an ephah of fine flour for a grain offering, mixed with a quarter of a hin of beaten oil.
Num 28:6 It is a regular burnt offering, which was ordained at Mount Sinai for a pleasing aroma, a food offering to the LORD.
Num 28:7 Its drink offering shall be a quarter of a hin for each lamb. In the Holy Place you shall pour out a drink offering of strong drink to the LORD.
Num 28:8 The other lamb you shall offer at twilight. Like the grain offering of the morning, and like its drink offering, you shall offer it as a food offering, with a pleasing aroma to the LORD.
Sabbath Offerings
Num 28:9 “On the Sabbath day, two male lambs a year old without blemish, and two tenths of an ephah of fine flour for a grain offering, mixed with oil, and its drink offering:
Num 28:10 this is the burnt offering of every Sabbath, besides the regular burnt offering and its drink offering.


A. The Sabbath was an appointed time.

B. The Sabbath was a sign with Israel.

C. The Sabbath had associated food and drink offerings.

not God's holy weekly Sabbath that started from creation Genesis 2:3

The yearly appointed times were "holy" as well:

Lev 23:4 “These are the appointed feasts of the LORD, the holy convocations, which you shall proclaim at the time appointed for them.

We already looked and found no mention of humans keeping Sabbath before Exodus 16.

God spoke the fourth commandment at Sinai. Exodus and Genesis both quote those words.

In Genesis we see God resting from His work of creation. And in Exodus 20 we see God indicating that He also wants Israel to rest to remember that He is their Creator. And in Deut. 5 He wants them to remember He is their Savior from Egypt.

He gives them a sign to remember who they are making the covenant with.

and will be eternal on the New Earth Isaiah 66:23.

That whole section is fascinating, and we can look at it in greater detail after Colossians 2 if you like.

However, suffice to say for now,

a. Why wouldn't it be in the new earth? In Acts 21 Jewish believers are still keeping all the law.

b. it also mentions the new moon, which the Jewish believers would also be keeping, but Colossians 2 calls a shadow.

Do you do any assembling on the new moon? A few Adventists do. Most don't.

I don't think Paul is speaking about the seventh day Sabbath either regarding when he says don't esteem one day above the other and goes on to say the only thing that really matters is keeping God's commandments, which includes the 4th.

Was circumcision in the flesh a commandment of God? Was the Day of Atonement a commandment of God?

The commandments God gives us we should keep. However, He does not require all in the new covenant of Gentile believers. Acts 15 states that.

If you want to keep them all, become messianic. If you see in Scripture that some are not now required for Gentiles in the new covenant (and arguably anyone in the new covenant), then you have to look at texts that indicate that could include the Sabbath.

And the scope of Romans 14 is very broad. One person considers all days the same, and doesn't observe. Yet that is still to the Lord.

Jesus said Sabbath was made for us (man) Mathew 2:27. I just can't come up with the same conclusion as you do when it comes to the 4th commandment, God's holy Sabbath day.

I would also like to go through this text after the other two. Perhaps you have a longer attention span than LGW thinks others here do.

 

[tall73]

Knowing this, I just don't see how Colossians 2 can be about the seventh day Sabbath, when all that is mentioned is food and drink and that is more inline with the Sabbath(s) festivals, not God's holy weekly Sabbath

Let's look at the context to begin with:

Col 2:1 For I want you to know how great a struggle I have for you and for those at Laodicea and for all who have not seen me face to face,
Col 2:2 that their hearts may be encouraged, being knit together in love, to reach all the riches of full assurance of understanding and the knowledge of God's mystery, which is Christ,
Col 2:3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
Col 2:4 I say this in order that no one may delude you with plausible arguments.
Col 2:5 For though I am absent in body, yet I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good order and the firmness of your faith in Christ.

In Christ are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge

That is the overarching theme he is going to elaborate upon. Christ is the mystery of God, where all Wisdom and knowledge reside. And he is going to note how we can be drawn to other things which people try to substitute for Christ and His fullness through plausible arguments.

The first of these is philosophy.

Col 2:6 Therefore, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him,
Col 2:7 rooted and built up in him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.
Col 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.
Col 2:9 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,
Col 2:10 and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority.

Philosophy is no substitute, and is based on human tradition and wisdom. Christ on the other hand has all wisdom, all authority, all the fullness of the Deity.

He lists others at the end of the chapter:

Col 2:18 Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind,
Col 2:19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom the whole body, nourished and knit together through its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God.
Col 2:20 If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world, why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations—
Col 2:21 “Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch”
Col 2:22 (referring to things that all perish as they are used)—according to human precepts and teachings?
Col 2:23 These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion and asceticism and severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh.

Worship of angels, asceticism, etc. are not sufficient. Christ is.

So in the central section, dealing with circumcision, baptism, the feasts, food etc. we would expect to see things that are about Christ, the fullness, contrasted with things that fall short of that.

In the case of angels, angels are not bad in themselves. Worshiping them is bad.

In the case of the feasts, etc. these were certainly not bad. They were holy. So we will see what it says.

Do you want to add anything on the context, or disagree with any aspect?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Num 28:1 The LORD spoke to Moses, saying,
Num 28:2 “Command the people of Israel and say to them, ‘My offering, my food for my food offerings, my pleasing aroma, you shall be careful to offer to me at its appointed time.’
Num 28:3 And you shall say to them, This is the food offering that you shall offer to the LORD: two male lambs a year old without blemish, day by day, as a regular offering.
Num 28:4 The one lamb you shall offer in the morning, and the other lamb you shall offer at twilight;
Num 28:5 also a tenth of an ephah of fine flour for a grain offering, mixed with a quarter of a hin of beaten oil.
Num 28:6 It is a regular burnt offering, which was ordained at Mount Sinai for a pleasing aroma, a food offering to the LORD.
Num 28:7 Its drink offering shall be a quarter of a hin for each lamb. In the Holy Place you shall pour out a drink offering of strong drink to the LORD.
Num 28:8 The other lamb you shall offer at twilight. Like the grain offering of the morning, and like its drink offering, you shall offer it as a food offering, with a pleasing aroma to the LORD.
Sabbath Offerings
Num 28:9 “On the Sabbath day, two male lambs a year old without blemish, and two tenths of an ephah of fine flour for a grain offering, mixed with oil, and its drink offering:
Num 28:10 this is the burnt offering of every Sabbath, besides the regular burnt offering and its drink offering.


A. The Sabbath was an appointed time.

B. The Sabbath was a sign with Israel.

C. The Sabbath had associated food and drink offerings.



The yearly appointed times were "holy" as well:

Lev 23:4 “These are the appointed feasts of the LORD, the holy convocations, which you shall proclaim at the time appointed for them.

We already looked and found no mention of humans keeping Sabbath before Exodus 16.

God spoke the fourth commandment at Sinai. Exodus and Genesis both quote those words.

In Genesis we see God resting from His work of creation. And in Exodus 20 we see God indicating that He also wants Israel to rest to remember that He is their Creator. And in Deut. 5 He wants them to remember He is their Savior from Egypt.

He gives them a sign to remember who they are making the covenant with.



That whole section is fascinating, and we can look at it in greater detail after Colossians 2 if you like.

However, suffice to say for now,

a. Why wouldn't it be in the new earth? In Acts 21 Jewish believers are still keeping all the law.

b. it also mentions the new moon, which the Jewish believers would also be keeping, but Colossians 2 calls a shadow.

Do you do any assembling on the new moon? A few Adventists do. Most don't.



Was circumcision in the flesh a commandment of God? Was the Day of Atonement a commandment of God?

The commandments God gives us we should keep. However, He does not require all in the new covenant of Gentile believers. Acts 15 states that.

If you want to keep them all, become messianic. If you see in Scripture that some are not now required for Gentiles in the new covenant (and arguably anyone in the new covenant), then you have to look at texts that indicate that could include the Sabbath.

And the scope of Romans 14 is very broad. One person considers all days the same, and doesn't observe. Yet that is still to the Lord.



I would also like to go through this text after the other two. Perhaps you have a longer attention span than LGW thinks others here do.

The burnt offerings, blood sacrifices ended at the cross, not one of God's eternal commandments. I think you are confusing ceremonial laws with God's moral commandments. If the Sabbath was meant to be ceremonial I do not think God would have wrote that in with the TEN or ask that we remember it.

Both first and second covenants were written with Israel, but are we not spiritual Jews? The promises God made are for everyone, not just Jews, than the same would apply with the commandments.

Also, from my perspective, I don't see @LoveGodsWord having a short attention span. It seems like both he and BobRyan have been extremely detailed on this thread.

That said, I am going to leave it with those two to continue on. I don't see anything written that says God's 4th commandment has been abolished. I appreciate the discussion.

God bless

 

[tall73]

The burnt offerings, blood sacrifices ended at the cross, not one of God's eternal commandments.

Well in Acts 21 the Jewish believers were still offering them, but while recognizing Jesus as the fulfillment.

However, you said the Sabbath was not associated with food and drink offerings. But it is, just like the other appointed times.

I think you are confusing ceremonial laws with God's moral commandments. If the Sabbath was meant to be ceremonial I do not think God would have wrote that it with the TEN or ask that we remember it.

Why? There were moral commandments outside of the ten. And there were moral commandments inside the ten.

There were memorial, appointed times with sacrifices outside the ten. And there was a memorial, appointed time with sacrifices inside the ten (the Sabbath).

The covenant tablets were a memorial of the whole covenant. And all the laws ceremonial and moral were required.

Both first and second covenants were written with Israel, but are we not spiritual Jews? The promises God made are for everyone, not just Jews, than the same would apply with the commandments.

Indeed, but then why are you not keeping the Day of Atonement? It was an everlasting statute with Israel.

Why are male Adventists not all circumcised in the flesh? It was an everlasting covenant with the descendants of Abraham.

But Gentiles were not required to be circumcised and keep all the law of Moses at the council in Acts 15.

Also, from my perspective, I don't see @LoveGodsWord having a short attention span. It seems like both he and BobRyan have been extremely detailed on this thread.

Re-read my comment. I said he thinks others here have a short attention span so did not want to go through every text before getting to conclusions. He should be pleased now as we are talking conclusions.

And BobRyan has always been very detailed and thorough.

That said, I am going to leave it with those two to continue on. I don't see anything written that says God's 4th commandment has been abolished. I appreciate the discussion.

God bless

Yet we just started looking at Colossians 2. I am guessing you will continue reading then. But if you want to then feel free to weigh in.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Thank you for sharing your testimony. I am glad the Lord brought you to His word and Spirit to direct you.

I agree the Lord has His sheep in many churches. And it is clear that out of the many churches they cannot all have correct doctrine.

I also agree the Spirit leads us.

However, you cannot make your experience the only test of truth. Many people feel the Lord led them to a particular church that is not the Adventist church.

I would also indicate that I too have prayed that the Lord would show me what was truth. And I believe He led me away from the Adventist church.

Finally, if you wish to join a church that keeps all of the commandments you will need to leave the Seventh-day Adventist church and join a messianic congregation.

Hello Tall,

I think you missed the point of me sharing my testimony earlier. The reason I shared it with you along with the rest of my post was only to show that knowing the truth of Gods' Word is not complicated if we trust in the promises of Gods' Word to be our guide and teacher as we seek him for a knowledge of the truth through His Word. My Testimony was based on the scriptures that God led me to as I was and continue to seek him in John 14:26; John 16:13; John 7:17; Hebrews 8:11; John 8:31-32 and 1 John 2:27. I have never said my experience (testimony) is the only test of truth. According to the scriptures Gods' Word is truth *John 7:17. My testimony is about my experience in asking God to guide me and to lead me into His truth and by faith claiming and believing his Word and seeking him for an understanding of His Word as I continue in it. So it is from my testimony that I believe to know the truth of God's Word despite scripture being fulfilled in our very eyes from Jesus that there are so many false teachers and false Christian religions being in the world today. So it depends on where you seek God's truth I believe that makes it complicated or not.

At one point as wondered what the difference was between the Messianics Church's and SDA Church. After having some discussion with many of them I have learned that they still believe in the Mosiac "Shadow laws" for remission of sins (Levitical Priesthood, the earthly Sanctuary system with animal sacrifices for sin offerings and other offerings; annual Feast days; circumcision etc). So while we have some things in common with our faith in believing that God's 10 commandments are the standard for Christian living that according to the scriptures in the new covenant give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken and righteousness when obeyed *Romans 3:20l Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172; James 2:10-11 to continue a practice of the shadow laws for remission of sin according to the scriptures would be to deny the very Christ to who these Mosaic "shadow laws" all pointed to in the body of Christ *Colossians 2:17 that in the new covenant pointed to and are continued in.

Under the new covenant as shown in *Hebrews 7:1-25 the Levitical Priesthood pointed to Jesus as our great High Priest and is now continued in him based on better promises who now ministers on our behalf in the Heavenly Sanctuary of which the Lord pitched and not man. The earthly was only a copy of the Heavenly and Jesus is now God's sacrifice for the sins of the world once for all *Hebrews 8:1-6; John 1:29; 36; Hebrews 10:10. It is the volume of the book that points to Jesus as the coming Messiah and Savoir of the world and God's new covenant promise as shown in Hebrews 10:1-22.

For Gods people in the old covenant Mosaic "shadow laws" for remission of sins God's people looked forward to the coming of the Messiah and God revealed to his people the promise of salvation under a new covenant of His coming who would save his people from their sins. Today God's people look backwards to the promised Messiah who has already come and the implementation of the new covenant based on better promises *Hebrews 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-28 and Hebrews 10:1-22.

So to go back to the Mosaic Shadow laws for remission of sins that the Messianics seek to follow in my view is to deny the very Christ and Messiah in Jesus to who they all pointed to as the body of Christ *Colossians 2:17. So for me I cannot accept their teachings on this regard and I believe to do so would be to deny the very Christ to who these "shadow laws" all pointed to.

According to Jesus the hour is coming and now is that the truth worshipers will worship God in Spirit and in truth. God is a Spirit and those who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in truth. We do not worship God today under the new covenant by going back to the old covenant laws for remission of sins (Levitical Priesthood, the earthly Sanctuary system with animal sacrifices for sin offerings and other offerings; circumcision etc).

God is calling His people where ever they might be to come out from following false teachings and return to worship Him in Spirit and in truth *John 10:16: John 4:23-24 as we he guides us in the truth of His Word through His Spirit *John 17:17; John 6:63; Revelations 18:4. As posted earlier Gods' people are in every church of the world but according to the scriptures God's sheep will hear His Voice (the Word) and come out from following the teachings and traditions of men and follow him. Those who do not hear His voice will not follow because they are not His sheep *John 10:26-27

Hope this is helpful.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ There is no Sabbath mentioned at all in Romans 14 it is talking about eating and not eating on days that men esteem over other days and judging others in this regard, not what days that God esteems. Colossians 2:16 is talking about the sabbaths is the feast days not God's 4th commandment of the 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken.

Your response here...

The eating is about whether one eats only vegetables. It is an example of a disputable matter. The other is about observing days. It puts no limit on the days that could be observed, but does say some do not observe, and it is to the Lord.

It is the chapter context and subject matter that determines the topic of conversation. As posted earlier there is no scripture that talks about the Sabbath of Gods' 4th commandment anywhere in Romans 14. One needs to read this into one text in Romans 14:5 when the subject matter of Romans 14 is overwhelmingly in regards to eating and not eating on days that men esteem over other days and judging others in this regard. Paul is not talking about food and then stopping to say in one verse in the whole chapter changing the topic of conversation by the way you no longer need to keep the Sabbath or obey God's 4th commandment of the 10 commandments when he does not even mention the Sabbath. TO have an interpretation like this makes no sense to the chapter and subject matter of Romans 14, the rest of the new testament scriptures and what Paul discussed elsewhere in regards to keeping of the commandments of God making Paul in contradiction with Paul *see Romans 3:31; Romans 8:4; Romans 6:1-23; Romans 13:8-10; 1 Corinthians 7:19 etc) and pretty much all the new covenant scriptures (more scripture here and here). So for me Romans 14 has nothing to do with the Sabbath it is the topic of discussion and context that determines what is being discussed. There is no mention of the Sabbath at all in Romans 14 only eating and not eating (fasting) on days that men esteem over other days. The scriptures are not talking about the days that God esteems as shown in Genesis 2:1-3 that is one of Gods' 10 commandments that he commands His people to keep as a holy day of rest in Exodus 20:8-11 and to base that interpretation on one text that does not even mention the Sabbath is a bit of a gamble in my view. Keep in mind here that the things that men esteem according to Jesus is an abomination in God's eyes according to the scriptures (Luke 16:15). So we will have to agree to disagree on this one Tall as I do not think to claim that Romans 14 is talking about the Sabbath is a biblical interpretation of the scriptures and pretty much has Paul contradicting him self and in disagreement with the rest of the bible and the new testament scriptures. So we might have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ Yet these same people claimed to be the educated in knowing the truth of God's Word. How God made of nothing the wisdom of the wise. We cannot know the truth of God's Word unless we prayerfully seek him who's Words come from asking him to be our guide and teacher.

Your response

I did ask Him, which is why I left the Adventist church, and many Adventist pastors and members have done the same.

According to the scriptures God guides us into His truth as we seek him through His Word *John 17:17; John 6:63; John 8:31-36. If God gives us a knowledge of the truth of His Word and we reject it according to the scriptures in order to continue in known unrepentant sin Paul says there remains for us no more sacrifice for sin but a fearful looking forward to of the judgement to come because we reject the gift of God's dear son and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing according to Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31 and Hebrews 10:26-31. So if the scriptures teach is that breaking anyone of Gods' 10 commandments is sin in James 2:10-11 why do you believe God has guided you and those who leave a knowledge of the truth of Gods' Word back into sin which is defined in the scriptures as breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; James 2:10-11? Please understand that my question here is only to help me to understand what you have posted above in relation to the scriptures shared with you here and to understand your thinking nothing more.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

My answer is that it is applicable to those who observe it, and do so to the Lord, as part of the sign given to Israel.

Yet you agreed with me earlier in the thread that God's ISRAEL in the new covenant are all those now who believe and follow Gods' Word (Romans 9:6-9; Galatians 3:28-29; Romans 2:28-29; Ephesians 2:11-13 etc). If we are not a part of Gods' ISRAEL in the new covenant we have no part in Gods' new covenant promise as shown in Hebrews 8:10-12. Gentiles are now grafted in according to the scriptures *Romans 11:13-27. If we are not a part of God's ISRAEL in the new covenant we have no part in Gods' new covenant promises therefore all those who believe and follow Gods' Word are given the Sabbath as a sign that we are God's people and God is sanctifying us according to *Exodus 31:13; John 17:17; John 6:63 and as Paul says THEREFORE IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH -Hebrews 4:9.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Yes, He did make the ten special as they formed the covenant words, on the tables of the covenant. But He also made the Sabbath special among all of them as a sign with Israel:.

As far as the old covenant is concerned I think your post here stating that Gods' 10 commandments are the old covenant only tells half the story here. I agree that the old covenant included the 10 commandments (Exodus 34:28) as it does in the new covenant (scripture support here). What I believe your missing here however is that the old covenant was not only the 10 commandments but also included the "shadow laws" pointing to Christ in the Mosaic book of the covenant *Exodus 24:7. Together both God's 10 commandments and the Mosaic book of the covenant made up the old covenant not God's 10 commandments in isolation of the Mosaic book of the covenant *Exodus 24:7. It is the Mosaic "shadow laws" for remission of sins discussed earlier in another post from book of the covenant that point to Jesus in the body of Christ (Colossians 2:17) that are now fulfilled and continued in Christ under the new covenant based on better promises according to Hebrews 8:1-6 not Gods' 10 commandments that includes God's 4th commandment that in the new covenant gives us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4. James says in James 2:10-11 if we break anyone of God's 10 commandments we stand guilty before God of sin. We should be careful not to mix up the Mosiac "shadow laws (Levitical Priesthood; earthly Sanctuary service with it's animal sacrifices for sin offerings; circumcision etc) pointing to Jesus as God's promised Messiah and Savior of the world with God's eternal law that give us the knowledge of sin and righteousness. These shadow laws are not connected to the Sabbath commandment *Exodus 20:8-11 in the new covenant as they are fulfilled and continued in Christ based on better promises *Hebrews 8:1-6.

 

[BobRyan]

Hello LGW, so you don't consider the 7th day Sabbath as "special " compare to other day? That is the point of Romans 14:5,6...

No it isn't. Romans 14 is dealing with the bible approved annual holy days of Lev 23 in which "one person observes one day above the others while another person observes them all.. he who observes the day observes it to the Lord".

This refers to the existing OT practice where only 3 of the Lev 23 list of holy days were mandatory and the rest were optional. It is "not new" in the NT.

Now if "sabbath" is not in the text, that certainly isn't!
[/quotes]

It's the only set of Bible approved days for observance - as Gal 4 points out - the pagan options are condemned by Paul.

It does not limit the scope. One person sees a day above others. One doesn't. One observes, one doesn't.

[/QUOTE]

In the small set of Bible approved days Paul says "one observes one day above another while another man observes them all... he who observes the day observes it to the Lord"

The scope is broad, one doesn't observe any days.

None of the options Paul gives in Rom 14 is "one man does not observe any day"

 

[LoveGodsWord]

However, you said the Sabbath was not associated with food and drink offerings. But it is, just like the other appointed times.

These shadow laws of course were connected to many holy day as well as days that were not holy days (everyday) as they were a part of the old covenant shadow laws pointing to the body of Christ (Colossians 2:17). They are not a part of God's Sabbath commandment *Exodus 20:8-11 in the new covenant as they are fulfilled and continued in Christ based on better promises *Hebrews 8:1-6. Those laws of course were a part of the old covenant pointing to Jesus and are now fulfilled and continued in him and are not written into Gods' 4th commandment according to the scriptures therefore no longer a requirement in the new covenant.

 

[pasifika]

No it isn't. Romans 14 is dealing with the bible approved annual holy days of Lev 23 in which "one person observes one day above the others while another person observes them all.. he who observes the day observes it to the Lord".

This refers to the existing OT practice where only 3 of the Lev 23 list of holy days were mandatory and the rest were optional. It is "not new" in the NT.



Hello Bob, if you say Romans 14 is about feast days in Leviticus 23 then yes I agree... (all the Lord's festivals including 7th day Sabbath as in Lev 23:3) whether is a weekly, monthly or yearly festivals is still considered "sacred day" by Jews in it appointed times....

Gentiles on the other hand don't have such day(s) considered sacred...

So whether you observe such days or Not as long as you do it for the Lord and given thanks to God that He accepted you then you'll fine. And stop judging others. For God only is the judge..

 

[BobRyan]

Hello Bob, if you say Romans 14 is about feast days in Leviticus 23 then yes I agree... (all the Lord's festivals including 7th day Sabbath as in Lev 23:3) whether is a weekly, monthly or yearly festivals is still considered "sacred day" by Jews in it appointed times....

Gentiles on the other hand don't have such day(s) considered sacred...

So whether you observe such days or Not as long as you do it for the Lord and given thanks to God that He accepted you then you'll fine. And stop judging others. For God only is the judge..

Rom 14 does not mention Sabbath - it just says "day" ... but Gal 4 flat out condemns the observance of even one pagan day.

So that leaves us with just the annual feast days of Lev 23 (the weekly Sabbath was not a feast day and was not annual, and was not given in Ex 20 but rather in Gen 2:1-3 as Ex 20:11 points out)

Romans 14 does not address not observing the weekly Sabbath (breaking one of the commandments of God)