Is the Seventh Day Adventist Church orthodox

[LoveGodsWord]

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ There is no Sabbath mentioned at all in Romans 14 it is talking about eating and not eating on days that men esteem over other days and judging others in this regard, not what days that God esteems. Colossians 2:16 is talking about the sabbaths is the feast days not God's 4th commandment of the 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken.

Your response here...

Yes the Sabbath is not mentioned but it is considered by Jews as "sacred day" compare to other days...the Gentiles don't have sacred days and I think that is what Paul is saying in Romans 14:5,6

Unless you can prove that when someone "fast" (Luke 18:12) that day also considered a "sacred day"..

Your post does not make any sense to what you are responding to.

 

[pasifika]

No it isn't. Romans 14 is dealing with the bible approved annual holy days of Lev 23 in which "one person observes one day above the others while another person observes them all.. he who observes the day observes it to the Lord".

This refers to the existing OT practice where only 3 of the Lev 23 list of holy days were mandatory and the rest were optional. It is "not new" in the NT.

Agreed...it's about Jewish sacred day ie Lord festivals Lev 23 in comparison to Gentiles who do not have such "sacred" days...(Romans 14:5,6)

Also 7th day Sabbath is included Lev 23:3..(weekly festivals or sacred day)

It seems you and @LoveGodsWord have different views on Romans 14 since you both are SDA..

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Agreed...it's about Jewish sacred day ie Lord festivals Lev 23 in comparison to Gentiles who do not have such "sacred" days...(Romans 14:5,6)

Also 7th day Sabbath is included Lev 23:3..(weekly festivals or sacred day)

It seems you and @LoveGodsWord have different views on Romans 14 since you both are SDA..

No the Sabbath is weekly *Exodus 20:8-11. The annual Feasts are shadow laws that are yearly and no longer a requirement in the new covenant. I think you have missed the point of @BobRyan post.

 

[pasifika]

No the Sabbath is weekly *Exodus 20:8-11. The annual Feasts are shadow laws that are yearly and no longer a requirement in the new covenant. I think you have missed the point of @BobRyan post.

Weekly Sabbath also mentioned in Leviticus 23 together with other Sabbath festivals...I believe all Sabbaths given in OT all pointed to Jesus (including 7th day)

I think Bobs views of Romans 14:5,6 regarding "sacred day" is about the Lord's festivals given in Leviticus 23..and your view of Romans 14:5,6 as "fast" days.. (reference to Luke 18:12)..is that right?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Weekly Sabbath also mentioned in Leviticus 23 together with other Sabbath festivals...I believe all Sabbaths given in OT all pointed to Jesus (including 7th day)

I think Bobs views of Romans 14:5,6 regarding "sacred day" is about the Lord's festivals given in Leviticus 23..and you view Romans 14:5,6 as "fast" days.. (reference to Luke 18:12)..is that right?

No, we are in the new covenant now not the old. The annual sabbaths of Leviticus 23 are not the same as the weekly Sabbath of Gods' 4th commandment that are every "seventh day" of the week outside of the annual Feast days and is one of the 10 commandments that define what sin is in the new covenant *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4. Please re-read my posts to you in regards to Romans 14. It is not talking about the Sabbath. Your reading the Sabbath into the scriptures when the scriptures say nothing about the Sabbath. There is no mention in Romans 14 about the Sabbath. Romans 14:1-6 is about eating and not eating on days that men esteem over other days and judging others in this regards. It is not talking about days that God esteems over other days *Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11. The things that men esteem are an abomination in God's eyes *Luke 16:15.

 

[tall73]

So then "these guys" are also Adventists? seriously?

Again you conflate two different ideas. Did I say everyone who thinks Moses wrote Job are Adventists? Or that only Adventists think that?

LGW and I already acknowledged early Jewish beliefs that held that. And some didn't agree with that.

That was not what I asked for. I asked why Seventh-day Adventists believe it.

Now if you want to present the case for it by quoting other non-Adventists, that is up to you. I was asking for why Adventists think it.

BTW "Moses wrote the book of Job" is not one of the 28 Fundamental beliefs of Seventh-day Adventists and never has been... as you probably know.

The 28 indicate that Ellen White's writings are a continuing source of truth. And she clearly stated this.

Now are you saying you don't believe that Moses wrote Job? I would be interested to hear if that were the case.

How does this question even come up?

Read the whole conversation and find out.

But of course the whole sub-issue of how Adventists view Ellen White's writings was brought up early in this thread, before I even saw the thread.

In addition to the sampling of sources that also teach this -- as I posted above -- so also does it appear that God gave that same message to Ellen White - but why something with so much non-SDA background to it should come up as "why do SDAs say Moses wrote Job" is ... not clear to me.

Because as soon as I pointed it out to LGW he then thought it might be the case. He didn't wonder why Adventists believed it after I pointed that out. He just hadn't read it before, which is fine.

The real wonder is why you think it strange that people note what Ellen White says and treat it as Adventist thinking. Once you state that her writings are a continuing source of truth, that means you agree with those writings, in the official statement.

This idea is not original with SDAs and is not unique with SDAs and is not even one of our doctrines.

The idea is not unique to the SDA, or original, agreed.

And the 28 reference her writings as a continuing source of truth.

So let's ask all the Adventists in this thread. If Ellen White said that Moses wrote Job, does that mean that Moses wrote Job, or do you disagree with that?

 

[tall73]

Rom 14 says that one man esteems/observes one day above another while another man esteems/observes them all... he who observes the day observes it to the Lord.

No, it does not say the one man observes them all. You have conflated esteeming and observing.

5 One person esteems a day above another; another esteems every day.


The meaning of esteem in the first clause is modified by "above".

So one person esteems a day above another day. They think that some days are more important. Another esteems every day. They don't see one as more important.

But as to observing, that is addressed in verse 6:

6 He who observes the day, observes to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it

The person who esteems all the days the same does not observe--because he thinks all days are the same.

So then Paul is not teaching that Christians can "observe" all 365 days each year.

Of course Paul is not teaching that. He didn't even say that. You said that, but it went against verse 6.

 

[tall73]

I do understand what you are saying and where you are coming from. When I said the scriptures are not complicated I believe if we turn away from God and His Word and His promises to be our guide and teacher they can be complicated if we turn to men for an understanding of Gods' truth or we try to read into the scriptures what the scriptures do not say or teach.

For me I believe the only way we can know the truth of God's Word is to seek Jesus for a knowledge of the truth of Gods' Word by claiming his promises and seek God through his Word (John 14:26; John 16:13; John 7:17; John 8:31-32; 1 John 2:27) which is a part of God's new covenant promise to those who seek him (Hebrews 8:11). We cannot know the truth of Gods' Word unless God is our guide and teacher and we seek Him for it through his Word according to the scriptures.

According to the scriptures I believe we are living in the last days and God's judgement are beginning to fall on our world. Now we have the world-wide pandemic. Every day we hear of other natural disasters happening more and more. Fires, floods, storms, earthquakes, tsunamis are more and more common and frequent is all locations around the world every year. God is calling us all to wake up! He is coming. Our probation here will soon be over and no one knows when that will be.

MY PERSONAL TESTIMONY

I would like to share with you my personal testimony so you might know more about me and my personal experience in seeking God for a knowledge of the truth of His Word. Before I decided to join any church I remember reading my bible at home. At that time I was thinking to go and join a church until one day I read the scripture from Matthew 24:24 from Jesus saying that in the last days "there will be many false prophets and false Christs that if it were possible they should deceive Gods' very elect."

I was just reading my bible at home but these scripture seem to trouble me very much at that time I remember because I was thinking of going out to join a Church somewhere but I did not know which one. When I read these scriptures in Matthew 24:24 I believe God showed me their interpretation at that time as in the last days before He returns there would be many false prophets being messengers or teachers claiming they were from God that have false teachings and that the false Christs represented false Christian Churches (e.g. Christ being the head of the body which is the church - Ephesians 5:23; Colossians 1:18) and that many would be lost by following what these Churches were teachings.

Then as I was considering these scriptures one day, I believe God showed me all the Churches of the world all professing to be the chosen ones of God. Today in a recent consensus I remember reading that there is today somewhere around 30-40,000 different Churches all professing to be Gods true Church that have the truth of Gods' Word? Now I do no know how true those figures are but to me even if there was 20 churches all professing to be Gods' true Church that is 19 too many right?

So I was troubled because I did not want to follow false teachings and be lost to God. I prayed to God saying dear God help me. How am I going to know who your true Church is? I barely know your word and how am I ever going to find who your true Church is? I wanted to follow God but I knew I was never going to find Him if he did not help me and if he did not help me it would be impossible for me to find the truth of His Word. Looking back now with tears in my eyes I see how God answered my prayers and was with me guiding me and teaching me through His Word.

Not long after I prayed to God, as I was continuing reading His Word I came across some promises from His Word that really helped me to have believe God was leading and guiding me. These promises seemed to speak to me again just like the scripture from Matthew 24:24 that troubled me into thinking how am I ever going to know the truth of God's Word?

These scriptures that really spoke to me next were...

John 14:26 [26], But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I have said to you.

John 16:13 [13], However, when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.

John 7:17 [17], If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

John 8:31-32 [31], Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If you continue in my word, then are you my disciples indeed, [32], And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

....................

When I read these scriptures, it was like God knew my thoughts and how I was feeling and was talking to me through his Word personally. I now had hope and was happy and relieved that God promises to be my guide and teacher to help me to know the truth of His Word and that I did not need to be worried if I trusted Him about being deceived into not knowing what His truth is. I knew I had a part to play and that was to seek Him and claim His promises through His Word (John 8:31-36).

I started claiming His promises above as I was reading His Word and slowly but surely started learning more of His Word. I asked God, praying dear God thank you for these promises but who is your true Church? I know I cannot find who your true Church is unless you guide me and teach me and show me who they are?

I continued over some time reading God's Word and found these scriptures which seemed to stay with me that seemed to describe who Gods Church was according to the scriptures here...

[1.] God’s people are described as God’s sheep that hear believe and follow Gods Word *John 10:26-27

[2.] God’s people are described as God’s saints that keep the commandments of God and the faith or teachings of Jesus *Revelation 14:12.

[3.] God’s people are described as those who the dragon (devil) is making war with because they keep the commandments of God *Revelation 12:17

[4.] God’s people are described as having the testimony of JESUS which is the Spirit of Prophecy. They know the end day prophecies *Revelation 19:10

[5.] God’s people are described as being blessed because they washed their robes in the blood of the lamb *1 Peter 1:18-19; Revelation 7:14; Revelation 12:11; Revelation 22:14

[6.] God’s people are described as being blessed because they keep Gods commandments and receive eternal life *Revelation 22:14

[7.] God’s people are described as being born again and do not practice sin (breaking Gods’ commandments) *1 John 3:6-9

[8.] The different between the children of God and the children of the devil is that the children of God do not practice sin (breaking God’s commandments) and the children of the devil do *1 John 3:6-10.

……………………….

The question I believe we all must consider is how do we know we know God and are Gods saints according to the scriptures? Well Gods saints are in every Church who are living up to all the light of the knowledge of Gods’ Word that God has revealed to them and in times of ignorance when we do not know any better God winks at but when God gives us a knowledge of His Word he calls all men everywhere to believe and follow it *Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31; James 4:17.

Many do not know that the religious teachers of the world of fallen away from God’s Word in order to follow man made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God. BABYLON is described as being fallen. The mother church and her daughters *Revelation 14:8; Revelation 17:1-5. She has changed times and law *Danial 7:25 and supplanted her own day of worship for which there is no scripture in place of God’s 4th commandment which is one of God’s 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4.

God has his people in all of these Church’s and is calling his people out of Babylon from following the traditions and teachings of men back to the pure Word of God. *Revelation 18:1-5. The hour is coming and now is that the true worshipers will worship God in Spirit and in truth. God is a Spirit and those who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in truth. *John 10:16; John 4:23-24.

What is the test to know if we know God?

1 John 2:3-4 [3], And HEREBY WE KNOW THAT WE KNOW HIM, IF WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS.

[4], HE THAT SAITH, I KNOW HIM, AND KEEPETH NOT HIS COMMANDMENTS, IS A LIAR, AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IN HIM

In times of ignorance God winks at but when he gives us a knowledge of the truth of his Word calls all men everywhere to believe and follow. God’s sheep hear His voice (the Word) and follow it.

...............

SUMMARY: I became a Sabbath keeper and SDA because I believe God guided me to this Church through His Word and this is my testimony! God's Church through faith according to the scriptures keep all the commandments of God not some of them according to the scriptures and this is the difference between 99% of all the Churches of the Word. - YES the Sabbath of God's 4th commandment! 99% of the Churches of the Word are not following God's Word. God is calling His people out to return to His Word and follow Him in Spirit and in truth *Revelation 18:4. The above is pretty much a big part of my personal testimony. Today God is changing this sinners heart to love him and keep His commandments. I do not follow God to be saved but because I love God because he is saving me every day as I seek him and believe him through his Word.

God bless.

Thank you for sharing your testimony. I am glad the Lord brought you to His word and Spirit to direct you.

I agree the Lord has His sheep in many churches. And it is clear that out of the many churches they cannot all have correct doctrine.

I also agree the Spirit leads us.

However, you cannot make your experience the only test of truth. Many people feel the Lord led them to a particular church that is not the Adventist church.

I would also indicate that I too have prayed that the Lord would show me what was truth. And I believe He led me away from the Adventist church.

Finally, if you wish to join a church that keeps all of the commandments you will need to leave the Seventh-day Adventist church and join a messianic congregation.

 

[tall73]

Perhaps we might see this a little differently. I see application of nomos in 1 Corinthians 14:21 with application Isaiah as all the scripture of the old testament law prophets and Psalms.

I agree, that is exactly what he is doing. He uses "law" at time to refer to all the Old Testament.

But that is the point. The only quote I am aware of that directly ties a quote of Genesis to the law is in Galatians 4, and it is again Paul doing this to make a point about the OT upholding that salvation comes by promise, not just the law.

They will sometimes say law and prophets, sometimes law prophets and psalms, and sometimes Paul will just say law.

Again, the point is you cannot tell from Deut. 31 whether Genesis is included.

 

[tall73]

Yet these same people claimed to be the educated in knowing the truth of God's Word. How God made of nothing the wisdom of the wise. We cannot know the truth of God's Word unless we prayerfully seek him who's Words come from asking him to be our guide and teacher.

God bless.

I did ask Him, which is why I left the Adventist church, and many Adventist pastors and members have done the same.

 

[tall73]

There is no Sabbath mentioned at all in Romans 14 it is talking about eating and not eating on days that men esteem over other days and judging others in this regard, not what days that God esteems. Colossians 2:16 is talking about the sabbaths is the feast days not God's 4th commandment of the 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken.

The eating is about whether one eats only vegetables. It is an example of a disputable matter.

The other is about observing days. It puts no limit on the days that could be observed, but does say some do not observe, and it is to the Lord.

 

[tall73]

No it isn't. Romans 14 is dealing with the bible approved annual holy days of Lev 23 in which "one person observes one day above the others while another person observes them all.. he who observes the day observes it to the Lord".

This refers to the existing OT practice where only 3 of the Lev 23 list of holy days were mandatory and the rest were optional. It is "not new" in the NT.

This refers to the existing OT practice where only 3 of the Lev 23 list of holy days were mandatory and the rest were optional. It is "not new" in the NT.

Now if "sabbath" is not in the text, that certainly isn't!

It does not limit the scope. One person sees a day above others. One doesn't. One observes, one doesn't.

The scope is broad, one doesn't observe any days. But they are still walking in the Lord, and still His servant.

 

[pasifika]

No, we are in the new covenant now not the old. The annual sabbaths of Leviticus 23 are not the same as the weekly Sabbath of Gods' 4th commandment that are every "seventh day" of the week outside of the annual Feast days and is one of the 10 commandments that define what sin is in the new covenant *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4. Please re-read my posts to you in regards to Romans 14. It is not talking about the Sabbath. Your reading the Sabbath into the scriptures when the scriptures say nothing about the Sabbath. There is no mention in Romans 14 about the Sabbath. Romans 14:1-6 is about eating and not eating on days that men esteem over other days and judging others in this regards. It is not talking about days that God esteems over other days *Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11. The things that men esteem are an abomination in God's eyes *Luke 16:15.

Theres a couple of points here i want to clarify more...

• You said that Romans 14:1-6 is about eating and not eating on days that men esteem over other days.. (Not the days God esteem (ie7th day Sabbath)...

Which means All the feast days of Leviticus 23 is not days that men esteem But God since All feast days (Lev 23) are God's feast days given by God to Israel..

(This is why I said that you're view is different from Bob, since Bob reference Lev 23 to Romans 14:4,5 regarding days men esteem more than others)..

• The other point is, you also mentioned "that things men esteem are abomination in God's eyes"...

So obviously the days that men esteem are also abomination in God's eyes (Romans 14:5,6) do you agree with that?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I did ask Him, which is why I left the Adventist church, and many Adventist pastors and members have done the same.

That is the same for all churches, not just Adventist. I was just listening to a sermon by Jeffery Rafferty, Adventist pastor, who was raised Roman Catholic. His sister converted to Adventist, he was trying to get his sister out of the Adventist church, but ended up converting instead over 35 years ago. My father is a retired Adventist pastor. My brother become one too and later left the church. I stopped being an Adventist for a long time and now I am happily back in the church. There is only one Truth though. In the last days, we will be seeing a lot more people falling out and hopefully more converting over.

God bless.

 

[tall73]

Yes the Sabbath is not mentioned but it is considered by Jews as "sacred day" compare to other days...the Gentiles don't have sacred days and I think that is what Paul is saying in Romans 14:5,6

Unless you can prove that when someone "fast" (Luke 18:12) that day also considered a "sacred day"..

Exactly. It wouldn't matter if they did see fasting days as holy either.

The one man esteems them all the same, and doesn't observe days. So it is broad in scope. As you said, it is not necessary to observe days. Some may choose to, and some may not. He says let each be convinced, and both are doing or not doing unto the Lord.

 

[tall73]

That is the same for all churches, not just Adventist.

Agreed. Which is why experience is not the test.

 

[tall73]

There is one one Truth though. In the last days, we will be seeing a lot more people falling out and hopefully more converting over.

There is only one Truth, and He is not a denomination. And we cannot determine who His real followers are simply by testimonials.

 

[tall73]

No the Sabbath is weekly *Exodus 20:8-11. The annual Feasts are shadow laws that are yearly and no longer a requirement in the new covenant. I think you have missed the point of @BobRyan post.

And I think you miseed the point of the other poster.

It doesn't mention Sabbath or feast days. It does mention someone who thinks all days are the same and doesn't observe, and that is OK. It is to the Lord.

It is broad. Which is the problem for you.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

There is only one Truth. And we cannot determine who His real followers are simply by testimonials.

Agree. We do so by those who are following God's Word. While we are not here to judge, nor is it our place, scripture tells us His remnants keeps the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. Revelation 14:12 That narrows it down to very few churches.

 

[tall73]

Agree. We do so by those who are following God's Word. While we are not here to judge, nor is it our place, scriptures tells us His remnants keeps the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. Revelation 14:12 That narrows down a lot of churches.

Of course you should not judge. One man does not observe, and esteems all days alike, and does so to the Lord.

Why would you judge that when Paul says not to judge another's servant?

Now, I think people in many different denominations keep the Lord's commandments. And it will be Him who judges, which we are all thankful for.

However, in the church if someone is sexually immoral, etc. then we are to judge that per I Corinthians 5. Just not disputable matters like observing days.