The Bible: God's plan for the redemption of humankind? Or... ???

Clare73 · Apr 10, 2021

Saint Steven said:
@2PhiloVoid Here's something else to add to our discussion. Translators who are aware of the issues brought on by the biased translation work of our Bible have responded with their own translations. Here's a list of fifteen. Below that, a comparison of the NIV and the Young's Literal Translation. The word "eternal" is translated as "age-during", which means for an age, not for eternity.

Unless the last age is eternity. . .

The use of the terms an age, the age(s) to come, ages, and the age of ages, is another important aspect to consider. (Ephesians 2:7)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fifteen literally translated (not interpretively translated) Bibles that reveal what God will do with the sinners in Matthew 25:46

Concordant Literal, Young’s literal, Wilson’s Emphatic Diaglott, Rotherham’s Emphasized, Scarlett’s, J.W. Hanson’s New Covenant, Twentieth Century, Ferrar Fenton, The Western New Testament, Weymouth’s (unedited), Clementson’s, The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, Bullinger’s Companion Bible margins, Jonathan Mitchell’s translation (2010).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Matthew 25:46 NIV
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Matthew 25:46 Young's Literal Translation
And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

Clare73 · Apr 10, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Please explain how eternal conscious torment with no hope of escape is the love of God. Thanks.

Strawman. . .

When you explain how the justice of God is the love of God. . .

- eternal = it will never end (unjust, cruel and unusual by human standards)
- conscious = God supposedly designed it so that even though the fire is enough to kill, the tormented will be unable to die. (feel the love)
- torment = torture with no purpose - to what end? (no end, it's supposedly eternal)

In reality, ten seconds in what we understand as "hell" would be sufficient correction for anyone. Would you likely sin again after such an experience?

Most Christians can't imagine being in that situation. Though they are happy to consign the majority of humankind to it, claiming it is their own fault. Thus blaming the victims.

Mark 9:49
Everyone will be salted with fire.

Malachi 3:2
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.

Saint Steven · Apr 10, 2021

renniks said:
Backwards. The " all" are those who belong to him through believing. Christ and those who belong to him are all that are mentioned. There's no mention of those who don't belong to him... until we get to his enemies. Who are put under his feet, not made alive.

Nope.
The "For as in" and "so in" make this an equal comparison. (despite your discomfort)
In the same way that all (everyone) died in Adam, all (everyone) will be made alive in Christ. All means all. (as written)

1 Corinthians 15:22-24 NIV
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

renniks · Apr 10, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Nope.
The "For as in" and "so in" make this an equal comparison. (despite your discomfort)
In the same way that all (everyone) died in Adam, all (everyone) will be made alive in Christ. All means all. (as written)

1 Corinthians 15:22-24 NIV
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Even if I accept that, and I don't think that is a proper interpretation, it only carries the same connotation of everyone being drawn to him when he is raised up.
Which only means they are given light to find God if they seek. Not that everyone will.

sawdust · Apr 10, 2021

MMXX said:
I think that's just the way you choose to interpret it, and it looked like mockery to me rather than humor. Maybe if we get to know each other better, I'll understand your sense of humor.

The problem is that you've been misinterpreting what I've been saying. To be more clear again:

The scriptures are addressed to man, regarding God and man's relationship with God. They're about God and Adam, God and Noah, God and Abraham, God and Moses etc. They are about God's covenants with mankind.

The OP and I have been talking about universal reconciliation, to which you made accusations of self-centeredness along with other remarks. Probably because you misunderstood what was being said.

I was not in your conversation with the OP, you jumped into ours. I haven't misunderstood. You think the focus of scripture is about God's relationship with humanity. I say the focus is God, specifically the Lord Jesus Christ.

You stated: "To the point where God became humankind." You make it sound like God did us some big favour by becoming human but He (Christ) has always been human. It's why we are human, not the other way round.

You also stated: "According to the Bible, it's God who has "warm fuzzies" for mankind." Then proceeded to quote scripture about God's love while failing to recognise each case is talking about "agape" love which has no emotional content but is a rational thought to seek the highest and best. Agape love is not about how one feels towards another but is solely dependent on the integrity of the one doing the loving. God loves the world because He is beyond reproach in His character not because of anything the world is or isn't. This is why I told you to stop thinking of yourself (ie mankind in general) because God's love has nothing to do with what we are and everything to do with who He is.

We disagree about the purpose of scripture. It's as simple as that.

sawdust · Apr 10, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Please explain how eternal conscious torment with no hope of escape is the love of God. Thanks.

- eternal = it will never end (unjust, cruel and unusual by human standards)
- conscious = God supposedly designed it so that even though the fire is enough to kill, the tormented will be unable to die. (feel the love)
- torment = torture with no purpose - to what end? (no end, it's supposedly eternal)

In reality, ten seconds in what we understand as "hell" would be sufficient correction for anyone. Would you likely sin again after such an experience?

Most Christians can't imagine being in that situation. Though they are happy to consign the majority of humankind to it, claiming it is their own fault. Thus blaming the victims.

Mark 9:49
Everyone will be salted with fire.

Malachi 3:2
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.

You do realise I chose the "OR" in your topic? I don't agree with anything you said in your OP so this whole universal reconciliation thing you've got going on in your head is completely irrelevant to what I'm saying.

I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ because He is the truth and completely right. Whether I spend eternity in bliss or damnation in hell, I could care less, neither will change my mind as to who and what is the Lord Jesus Christ. My fate is not the issue.

He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Matt.16:15; Mk.8:29; Lk.9:20

That is the issue and it is the scriptures that give you the answer.

Saint Steven · Apr 10, 2021

renniks said:
Even if I accept that, and I don't think that is a proper interpretation, it only carries the same connotation of everyone being drawn to him when he is raised up.
Which only means they are given light to find God if they seek. Not that everyone will.

A face-to-face meeting with God does wonders for curing atheism, or unbelief. - lol

Saint Steven · Apr 10, 2021

sawdust said:
You do realise I chose the "OR" in your topic?

So you have no answer to my request?

Saint Steven said: ↑
Please explain how eternal conscious torment with no hope of escape is the love of God. Thanks.

sawdust · Apr 10, 2021

Saint Steven said:
So you have no answer to my request?

Saint Steven said: ↑
Please explain how eternal conscious torment with no hope of escape is the love of God. Thanks.

I did answer, you're not listening. Why don't you go back and answer the questions I asked first?

As far as I am concerned you begin with the wrong supposition and therefore end up in the wrong place, asking the wrong questions.

God is love. Whether we live or die will not alter God's character. If you actually knew what it means you would understand who goes to the lake of fire, why they go there, and why they can never be released.

Saint Steven · Apr 10, 2021

sawdust said:
... As far as I am concerned you begin with the wrong supposition and therefore end up in the wrong place, asking the wrong questions. ...

This is the Controversial Theology area. I knew that my topic would cause a stir. No surprise there. Three days later we have 16 pages of discussion. 3,300+ views 300+ replies. Looks like a successful topic to me.

As far as I am concerned... there are no wrong questions. - lol

What does YOUR view of the final judgment say you believe the Bible is about? Love hurts?

renniks · Apr 10, 2021

Saint Steven said:
A face-to-face meeting with God does wonders for curing atheism, or unbelief. - lol

Even Moses didn't get a face to face meeting. We all see through the glass darkly.

Saint Steven · Apr 10, 2021

renniks said:
Even Moses didn't get a face to face meeting. We all see through the glass darkly.

But weren't you referring to the afterlife? That should be vis-a-vis.

renniks said: ↑
Even if I accept that, and I don't think that is a proper interpretation, it only carries the same connotation of everyone being drawn to him when he is raised up.
Which only means they are given light to find God if they seek. Not that everyone will.

Saint Steven said: ↑
A face-to-face meeting with God does wonders for curing atheism, or unbelief. - lol

renniks · Apr 10, 2021

Saint Steven said:
But weren't you referring to the afterlife? That should be vis-a-vis.

renniks said: ↑
Even if I accept that, and I don't think that is a proper interpretation, it only carries the same connotation of everyone being drawn to him when he is raised up.
Which only means they are given light to find God if they seek. Not that everyone will.

Saint Steven said: ↑
A face-to-face meeting with God does wonders for curing atheism, or unbelief. - lol

You didn't specify when this meeting takes place. Where does scripture say anyone gets to repent after death?

Ceallaigh · Apr 10, 2021

sawdust said:
I was not in your conversation with the OP, you jumped into ours. I haven't misunderstood. You think the focus of scripture is about God's relationship with humanity. I say the focus is God, specifically the Lord Jesus Christ.

You stated: "To the point where God became humankind." You make it sound like God did us some big favour by becoming human but He (Christ) has always been human. It's why we are human, not the other way round.

You also stated: "According to the Bible, it's God who has "warm fuzzies" for mankind." Then proceeded to quote scripture about God's love while failing to recognise each case is talking about "agape" love which has no emotional content but is a rational thought to seek the highest and best. Agape love is not about how one feels towards another but is solely dependent on the integrity of the one doing the loving. God loves the world because He is beyond reproach in His character not because of anything the world is or isn't. This is why I told you to stop thinking of yourself (ie mankind in general) because God's love has nothing to do with what we are and everything to do with who He is.

We disagree about the purpose of scripture. It's as simple as that.

How was Christ always human before the Incarnation?

Saint Steven · Apr 10, 2021

renniks said:
You didn't specify when this meeting takes place. Where does scripture say anyone gets to repent after death?

Glad you asked.

Anyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (the reason for the bodily resurrection)

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says,
“Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Further reading: (Isaiah 45:23, Romans 14:11, Philippians 2:10, Revelation 15:4)

Ceallaigh · Apr 10, 2021

sawdust said:
I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ because He is the truth and completely right. Whether I spend eternity in bliss or damnation in hell, I could care less, neither will change my mind as to who and what is the Lord Jesus Christ. My fate is not the issue.

Does that mean salvation is irrelevant?

sawdust said:
He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Matt.16:15; Mk.8:29; Lk.9:20

That is the issue and it is the scriptures that give you the answer.

The answer is the Messiah. The savior of mankind.

renniks · Apr 10, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Glad you asked.

Anyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (the reason for the bodily resurrection)

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says,
“Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Further reading: (Isaiah 45:23, Romans 14:11, Philippians 2:10, Revelation 15:4)

Nice mashing of verses together with no context.

sawdust · Apr 10, 2021

Saint Steven said:
This is the Controversial Theology area. I knew that my topic would cause a stir. No surprise there. Three days later we have 16 pages of discussion. 3,300+ views 300+ replies. Looks like a successful topic to me.

As far as I am concerned... there are no wrong questions. - lol

What does YOUR view of the final judgment say you believe the Bible is about? Love hurts?

lol You're still not getting it. How men end up has never been, nor will it ever be the criteria I use to determine what the Bible is about. This is why I chose the "OR" in your topic. I don't see the Bible as a book that was written primarily to reveal the salvation plan but rather it was written to reveal the Living God.

sawdust · Apr 10, 2021

MMXX said:
Does that mean salvation is irrelevant?
The answer is the Messiah. The savior of mankind.

No, it means my fate is not the criteria for my belief. Was what I said truly that thick you could not see that?

Lord and Saviour, not just saviour.

Ceallaigh · Apr 10, 2021

sawdust said:
No, it means my fate is not the criteria for my belief. Was what I said truly that thick you could not see that?

I have difficulty understanding you. Most likely not what you are saying, but the way you say it. I started a thread about belief in and following Jesus regardless of the afterlife. Would you be a Christian if there was no afterlife? so I understand what you are saying along those lines.

sawdust said:
Lord and Saviour, not just saviour.

Yes, Lord and savior. But why did He already being Lord, come into this world as the Son of Man?

The Bible: God's plan for the redemption of humankind? Or... ???

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May God be with you and bless you.

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