The Bible: God's plan for the redemption of humankind? Or... ???

[Saint Steven]

Of what value is it to know the living God? Maybe it's my turn to ask if you're serious? lol

John 17:3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

Somehow you have managed to put up a dozen, or more, posts without actually saying anything. Perhaps you should consider a career in politics. - lol

 

[sawdust]

Somehow you have managed to put up a dozen, or more, posts without actually saying anything. Perhaps you should consider a career in politics. - lol

I thought I would let the Word speak for me on that occasion but you seem to ignore that too. Maybe you think God is also full of "rancour" which is why you can't see the errors in your assumptions.

You have a really nice day.

 

[Saint Steven]

I thought I would let the Word speak for me on that occasion but you seem to ignore that too. Maybe you think God is also full of "rancour" which is why you can't see the errors in your assumptions.

You have a really nice day.

At least I have the guts to make a stand. You have managed to weasel out of every inquiry. I have no idea where you are coming from. And then you play the "God card" inferring that somehow God is speaking for you. Your goal seems to be making yourself as slippery as possible.

Saint Steven said: ↑
Somehow you have managed to put up a dozen, or more, posts without actually saying anything. Perhaps you should consider a career in politics. - lol

 

[renniks]

As I said, all three views of the final judgment have biblical support. Yet all three views are in conflict. To believe one view is to reject the other two. I'm only being honest to point out that all three views have biblical support. No one can believe all three views, they are in conflict. There is a movement away from the belief in hell. Check out this list.

Bibles that do NOT contain the word "Hell".

Wesley's New Testament (1755)
Scarlett's N.T. (1798)
The New Testament in Greek and English (Kneeland, 1823)
Young's Literal Translation (1891)
Twentieth Century New Testament (1900)
Rotherham's Emphasized Bible (reprinted, 1902)
Fenton's Holy Bible in Modern English (1903)
Weymouth's New Testament in Modern Speech (1903)
The New Testament, James Moffat, (1917)
Jewish Publication Society Bible Old Testament (1917)
Panin's Numeric English New Testament (1914)
The New Testament, Charles B. Williams, 1937
The People's New Covenant (Overbury, 1925)
Hanson's New Covenant (1884)
Western N.T. (1926)
NT of our Lord and Savior Anointed (Tomanek, 1958)
Concordant Literal NT (1983)
The N.T., A Translation (Clementson, 1938)
Emphatic Diaglott, Greek/English Interlinear (Wilson, 1942)
New American Bible (1970)
Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible (1976)
Tanakh, The Holy Scriptures, Old Testament (1985)
The New Testament, A New Translation (Greber, 1980)
Christian Bible (1991)
The Scriptures (1993)
World English Bible (in progress)
Orthodox Jewish Brit Chadasha [NT Only]
Original Bible Project (Dr. James Tabor, still in translation)
Zondervan Parallel N.T. in Greek and English (1975)**
Int. NASB-NIV Parallel N.T. in Greek and English (1993)**
A Critical Paraphrase of the N.T. by Vincent T. Roth (1960)
New Testament, Recovery Version, Living Stream Ministry, 1991
New American Bible Revised Edition (NABRE) Roman Catholic
Holy Bible In Its Original Order, Fred R. Coulter, 2007
Etymological N.T. (An Ultra Literal Translation, 2011, Michael Wine)
Aramaic Peshitta New Testament, 2006, Janet M. Magiera
MirrorWord N.T. (Francois du Toit) still in translation
Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ, Electronic Ver. (Tentmaker Ministries)
The Source N.T. (Dr. Ann Nyland), 2004, 2007
Jonathan Mitchell N.T. (Jonathan Mitchell) 2009
Tree of Life Version, Baker Bookhouse, 2016******
The New Testament (David Bentley Hart) Yale University Press, 2017
.

Just because these translations don't have the word " hell" doesn't mean that the concept isn't there.
I don't see how you find three views. And Truth isn't determined by what the popular view currently is.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Mate, I realise it is in no way your intention, but at the end of the day you are making it sound like I am some sort of idiot who cannot comprehend what's written. I read the title and I read the first post, I understand what the OP was saying but I think he makes wrong conclusions based on a wrong starting premise hence, I opted to tackle his argument by referring to the OR in the title. Like I said, if there was no OR in his title, I would not have posted for I have nothing to say regarding his three options he presents.

Have you considered that maybe your focus is too narrow which is why you cannot seem to see past the OR and realise there may be other options to understand than the 3 the OP presents?

This thread has a topic. If I wanted to expand upon the topic or go off on an esoteric tangent, I'd start another thread rather than disrupt this one.

 

[Saint Steven]

Just because these translations don't have the word " hell" doesn't mean that the concept isn't there.
I don't see how you find three views. And Truth isn't determined by what the popular view currently is.

There is more to those translations than just removing the word hell. Note: The concept of hell was taken from Norse paganism. (Helheim)

The three views go back to the early church. They are not a product of a current popular view. In fact Universalism was the leading view in the early church theology schools. Since our Bible came from Rome, it carried the bias of that single school. (1 of 6)

"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge"
by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96
German theologian- Philip Schaff writes :

"In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."

 

[renniks]

There is more to those translations than just removing the word hell. Note: The concept of hell was taken from Norse paganism. (Helheim)

The three views go back to the early church. They are not a product of a current popular view. In fact Universalism was the leading view in the early church theology schools. Since our Bible came from Rome, it carried the bias of that single school. (1 of 6)

"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge"
by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96
German theologian- Philip Schaff writes :

"In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."

I have never read of any first-century church father supporting universalism.

 

[Saint Steven]

I have never read of any first-century church father supporting universalism.

Are you familiar with the Apostle Paul? - lol

Romans 3:24 NIV
and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

 

[Saint Steven]

Are you familiar with the Apostle Paul? - lol

Romans 3:24 NIV
and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

@renniks Or how about the Apostle John?

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

 

[Saint Steven]

@renniks Or how about the Apostle John?

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

@renniks Or the Apostle Peter?

1 Peter 4:6
For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Are you familiar with the Apostle Paul? - lol

Or how about the Apostle John?

Or the Apostle Peter?

BINGO!

 

[Ceallaigh]

I have never read of any first-century church father supporting universalism.

You might want to look into what Brad Jersak and David Bentley Hart have to say about it. Both are PhD Orthodox theologians and have written books on Patristics (the study of the early church fathers).

 

[renniks]

Are you familiar with the Apostle Paul? - lol

Romans 3:24 NIV
and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Seriously? Paul was not a universalist. You are cherry-picking pieces of verses. Can't really take that kind of thing seriously.

 

[renniks]

You might want to look into what Brad Jersak and David Bentley Hart have to say about it. Both are PhD Orthodox theologians and have written books on Patristics (the study of the early church fathers).

Maybe you could show me quotes from a first-century father that support universalism instead.

 

[renniks]

@renniks Or how about the Apostle John?

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

I can do that too.

2 Thessalonians 2:12 says that “all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.”

“But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!” (Galatians 1:8-9).

2 Thessalonians 1:8-10 “He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among those who have believed.”

Galatians 6:8 says, “The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Maybe you could show me quotes from a first-century father that support universalism instead.

You'd rather get it from me who doesn't know much about Patristics, than from those who have performed exhaustive research? Ok... sorry if those aren't good enough, but like I said...

And God showed great kindness to man, in this, that He did not suffer him to continue being in sin forever; but as it were, by a kind of banishement, cast him out of paradise in order that, having punishment expiated within an appointed time, and having been disciplined, he should afterwards be recalled...just as a vessel, when one being fashioned it has some flaw, is remoulded or remade that it may become new and entire; so also it happens to man by death. For he is broken up by force, that in the resurrection he may be found whole; I mean spotless, righteous and immortal. --Theophilus of Antioch (168 A.D.)

Wherefore also he drove him out of paradise and removed him far from the tree of life, not because He envied him the tree of life, as some dare assert, but because He pitied him and desired that he should not be immortal and the evil interminable and irremediable. --Iraneaus of Lyons (182 A.D.)

 

[Saint Steven]

Seriously? Paul was not a universalist. You are cherry-picking pieces of verses. Can't really take that kind of thing seriously.

He wrote all of these and more. Maybe you should take it seriously.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Romans 5:15-16
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Colossians 1:19-20
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

1 Timothy 2:1-6
I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

Romans 3:24 NIV
and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

 

[Saint Steven]

I can do that too.

2 Thessalonians 2:12 says that “all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.”

“But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!” (Galatians 1:8-9).

2 Thessalonians 1:8-10 “He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among those who have believed.”

Galatians 6:8 says, “The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

I claim that all three views of the final judgment have biblical support. What do you claim?

 

[Jake Arsenal]

You are free to have your own opinions, but apparently you feel that I am not. You come on the topic with guns-a-blazing. - lol

... We know that “We all possess knowledge.” But knowledge puffs up while love builds up. - 1 Corinthians 8:1 NIV

If the Bible is about knowledge, what are you doing with yours? Puffery, or love?

I provided over 100 scriptures about knowing God, not about general knowledge.

Somewhere in my religious upbringing I remember reading, or being told, that the Bible reveals God's plan for the redemption of humankind. (my words)

It occurred to me recently that this does not fit the majority beliefs about the final judgment. (Damnationism and Annihilationism) It seems that according to that, people must believe that the Bible is God's plan for planetary genocide. The broad way that leads to destruction in the afterlife.

Romans 3:24 NIV
and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Thank you for addressing my concerns. Rather than considering my questions as an attack, I hope you will consider my inquiry as it is intended: an attempt to understand the doctrine you are teaching.

Aren't you asking others to examine whether the doctrines they've been taught regarding the judgement are correct? I came here willing to discuss your view of the judgement if you could first give me evidence from scripture that the Bible reveals God's plan for the redemption of humankind. Is that reasonable?

 

[Jake Arsenal]

I have difficulty understanding you. Most likely not what you are saying, but the way you say it. I started a thread about belief in and following Jesus regardless of the afterlife. Would you be a Christian if there was no afterlife? so I understand what you are saying along those lines.
Yes, Lord and savior. But why did He already being Lord, come into this world as the Son of Man?

A question of motives? I have often considered this very question because I have feared that my sins were too great for Christ's forgiveness. I loath the person that I am without Christ. The wicked and evil things I have done as a worker of iniquity. Things that I struggled to confess because they were so horrendous that even my confessor might condemn me. I write this response with tears in my eyes and sobs in my chest. Praise Jesus for the Forgiveness He has provided me! I will follow HIM no matter the cost. The promised reward is not my reason for following HIM.

Salvation is more than the second life; Remember what He said to the adulterous woman?