Faith alone? How much faith?

tdidymas

Newbie
Aug 28, 2014
2,323
998
Houston, TX
✟163,485.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
I have heard this too many times than I care to count but it just doesn't line up with what the Bible actually says. James 2 talks about how Abraham was justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar. If you know the story of what happened in Genesis with Abraham and Isaac, they were the only ones on the mountain. No man witnessed what they were doing. In fact, Abraham's obedience to God in offering up his son Isaac was not a point about being justified before men, but it was about God blessing Abraham on the account of his obedience. James relates a faith without works like that of demons. So this is speaking really negatively of a faith that has no works. James says faith without works is dead. In other words, a dead faith cannot save anyone.

On top of that.... the word “justified” in James 2:24 is used for both faith and works. Most Christians today beleive that being justified by faith relates to salvation. So why is this not the case for works? The same word “justified” for both faith in works in the same verse. I will tell you why. It's because folks do not like what James says. Some have tried to just write off the book of James altogether. There are all kinds of excuses to undo certain verses that Christians find uncomfortable in these last days.

I disagree with your interpretation. James is writing that to a different audience than Paul in Rom. 3:28. James is addressing antinomianism, whereas Paul is addressing legalism. James is speaking of works proving the genuineness of faith, whereas Paul is assuming the faith is genuine. But I'm sure you disagree with that.

Not true. I answered this in post #73.
Sorry, I forgot. I disagree with where you are coming from. The idea you are conveying here comes from the RCC and the EO churches which have corrupted the purity of the gospel over the centuries, and is why the reformation happened. But of course, I know you disagree with that.
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,508
7,861
...
✟1,194,803.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
When Paul says a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law, he isn't limiting "law" to circumcision. The Jews commonly included the entire law, including the 10 commandments, since the law is based on it. Therefore "law" includes all the moral commands. Those verses you cited are simply one example of Judaizers trying to put the burden of laws and customs on the gentiles. When they tried to compel gentiles to be circumcised, they were saying that men must be circumcised, or else they won't be justified.

No. The Moral Law is not the issue. Yes, we cannot be justified by the Moral Law Alone without first being saved by God's grace through faith because every man has sinned as a part of their old life. The past slate of sin needs to wiped out and cleaned by throwing ourselves down upon God's grace and mercy and in believing the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. But we know that the gospel call is.... God has chosen us to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit, and a belief of the truth (2 Thessalonians 2:13-14). We know that God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12). We know that the reason Christ died for us was to redeem us from all iniquity and to be zealous of good works (Titus 2:14). God's grace is not a license for immorality (Jude 1:4).

Paul says that there are false teachers who denied God by a lack of works. They were every good work reprobate (Titus 1:16). So if that is the case, then not having works is a marker or indication of false teachers according to Paul. Knowing God is a part of eternal life (John 17:3). So if we do not want to be a false teacher, then we will not deny God by having a lack of works. Paul also said in Galatians 6:8-9 that if one sows to the flesh (sin) they will reap corruption, but if they sow to the Spirit, they will reap everlasting life (salvation). Paul continues to say in verse 9 about how this in reference to “well doing” and how we must not faint or grow tired in well doing so that we may reap (i.e. reap everlasting life) (Galatians 6:8-9).

The problem is that you fail to understand that the heresy of “Circumcision Salvationism” is teaching “Works ALONE Salvationism” without God's grace. For if a person believed that they had to first be circumcised in order to be initially saved, then they would be making the Law or works the basis of their salvation instead of having faith in God's grace through Jesus Christ. The “Circumcision Salvationism” heresy is described to us at the Jerusalem council (See again: Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24, then see Galatians 2:3, Galatians 5:2, and Romans 3:1, Romans 4:9-12).

You said:
It's the same today, except they use other "laws" like baptism, sabbath day, and other modern rules.

I don't believe water baptism is the baptism of today. This was John's baptism under the Old Covenant and it took time for the Jewish apostles to come to the same truth that Paul had. I believe the one baptism in Ephesians 4:5 is the baptism in 1 Corinthians 12:13 whereby we are all baptized into one Spirit spiritually when we accept Jesus Christ as our Savior.

The Sabbath day was a command given to Israel under the Law of Moses. Colossians 2:14-16 makes it clear that the Sabbath is no longer binding command under the New Covenant.

You said:
But the most deceptive thing is to use the "10 Commandments" as a similar requirement for justification, and this is a common problem among Christians today.

The Sabbath is a ceremonial law that does not apply. So the 10 do not exist anymore as a whole or package deal. Those today who believe we must keep the Sabbath and or who love to quote the 10 do not realize that there are other Moral Laws in the 613 laws of Moses. Obviously the law that condemns inappropriate behavior with animals is not a part of the 10, but yet it is a Moral Law. Yet, if we don't have to keep God's moral laws to be saved after being saved, we can be a drunkard, and or an axe murderer, and or inappropriate content star all because we have a belief alone on Jesus. For do you believe the prodigal son was saved when he was living it up with prostitutes?

For if faith alone in Jesus truly saves, then you can live your life in however you please. One can do nothing for God and be okay with the Lord. But we know that the unprofitable servant is cast into outer darkness (See: Matthew 25:30).

You said:
Rom. 3:28 means that a person is justified before God solely on account of his faith in Christ, without having to perform any one of the "10 Commandments." If that person's faith is genuine, God cleans his conscience and he begins living his life with love for God and others. Agree?

While we are changed when we become born again, we still have free will to either do good or evil. God does not force us like puppets to do good only.

We are told:

“...We are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.” (Hebrews 3:13-14).

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10).​


We are told to:

  1. Continue in the grace of God (Acts of the Apostles 13:43).

  2. Continue in the faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22) (Colossians 1:23).

  3. Continue in his goodness, otherwise we can be cut off (just like the Jews were cut off) (Romans 11:21-22).

These things in Scripture (mentioned above) do not make any sense if things are as you say.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,508
7,861
...
✟1,194,803.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I disagree with your interpretation. James is writing that to a different audience than Paul in Rom. 3:28. James is addressing antinomianism, whereas Paul is addressing legalism.

I would agree with that but we have different undersandings on the definitions of what Antinomianism and Legalism means. Eve believed in a form of Antinomianism because she bought into the lie of the devil that was pushing the idea that she should could break God's command and not die. This same lie is being pushed today and many are eating up the devil's lie, hook, line, and sinker. Yet, she only broke one command.

You said:
James is speaking of works proving the genuineness of faith, whereas Paul is assuming the faith is genuine. But I'm sure you disagree with that.

The works of faith is a part of the faith. It is a natural expression of one's faith and will always be there and thus it is necessary. For can you be saved without faith? Faith and the work of faith are two sides of the same coin. You want to separate them but this is not possible. Faith without works is dead. You don't appear to believe that. For can a dead faith save you? Can a faith like that of demons save anyone? No. So the work of faith that comes from the faith is a necessary part of our salvation. If not, it is a dead faith that does not save. Paul was talking about the 1st aspect of salvation in being saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ and the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, and Paul is not referring to 2nd aspect of salvation (Which is the sanctification of the Spirit). You fail to accept that 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says that God has chosen us to salvation through the sanctification of the Spirit. James was referring to the Sanctification Process that follows after being saved by God's grace. So you are confusing two different aspects of salvation.

You said:
Sorry, I forgot. I disagree with where you are coming from. The idea you are conveying here comes from the RCC and the EO churches which have corrupted the purity of the gospel over the centuries, and is why the reformation happened. But of course, I know you disagree with that.

Right, I do disagree with that. While the RCC (Romans Catholic Church), and the EO (Eastern Orthodox Church) do believe that works are a necessary component of salvation, they are not biblical churches in my view because they pray to the dead, and kiss statues; They also include works as man made sacraments that are not found in the Bible, as well. Thus, they do not accept the Bible alone as their final word of authority on matters of the faith. The teachings I propose to you come straight out of the Bible itself. It is why I am able to quote so many Scripture verses to you with you not being able to give a good answer that upholds the goodness of God.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,508
7,861
...
✟1,194,803.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I disagree with your interpretation. James is writing that to a different audience than Paul in Rom. 3:28. James is addressing antinomianism, whereas Paul is addressing legalism. James is speaking of works proving the genuineness of faith, whereas Paul is assuming the faith is genuine. But I'm sure you disagree with that.


Sorry, I forgot. I disagree with where you are coming from. The idea you are conveying here comes from the RCC and the EO churches which have corrupted the purity of the gospel over the centuries, and is why the reformation happened. But of course, I know you disagree with that.

Legalism is a charge that gets thrown a lot by many. It means different things to many people. According to God's Word: It is not legalism to obey God, and or to enter the Sanctification Process as a part of salvation (After we are saved by God's grace). If you disagree with those verses on Sanctification for salvation, then you need to explain them in how they work from your viewpoint or belief. For the Bible does clearly teach that...


After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:



(Here are a List of Verses):


#1. “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

#2. "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

#3. "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

#4. "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing," (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

Supplemental verse:

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).​

#5. "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

#6. "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

#7. “...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

Supplemental verses:

(a) “That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (2 Thessalonians 2:12).

(b) “...and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, Comfort your hearts, and establish you in every good word and work.” (2 Thessalonians 2:16-17).​

#8. “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).

Supplemental verse:

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).​

#9. "If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema [accursed] Maranatha."(1 Corinthians 16:22).

Supplemental verses:

(a) "If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

(b) “If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).​

#10. ”And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).

#11. “...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Matthew 19:17-19).

#12. "And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38). ”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

#13. "...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62) (cf. Luke 8:11-15, 1 Corinthians 4:15).

#14. "But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

Supplemental verses:

(a) "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

(b) “Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.” (James 1:12).

(c) "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).​

#15. “And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:29).

#16. ”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

#17. “For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

#18. “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:12-13).

#19. ”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).
“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

#20. ”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).
”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

#21. “In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

#22. “He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).

#23. “But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” (1 John 1:7) (cf. 1 John 2:9-11).

#24. “For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:20).

#25. “Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.” (Matthew 7:24-27).

#26. “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21).

Supplementary verse:

“For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication” (1 Thessalonians 4:3).​

#27. “And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet [Jesus], shall be destroyed from among the people.” (Acts of the Apostles 3:23).

#28. “I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.’ (John 15:5-6).

Supplementary verses:

(a) “Bring forth therefore fruits befitting for repentance” (Matthew 3:8).

(b) “And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.” (Matthew 3:10).​


#29. “And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.” (1 Peter 4:18-19).

#30. “For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.” (Galatians 6:8-9).
 
Upvote 0

d taylor

Well-Known Member
Oct 16, 2018
10,728
4,737
59
Mississippi
✟251,639.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
If a person believes that Jesus is the promised Messiah from the prophecies of The Tanakh and trust in The Messiah for Gods free gift of Eternal Life.

Getting to that point of understanding this, may take a while, a day, a month, or even a year or more before a person understands exactly how to receive Gods free gift of Eternal Life.

But the moment they do understand and exercise faith to trust in Jesus for Eternal Life and that actually only takes a moment of time.
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,508
7,861
...
✟1,194,803.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
These verses above in post #84 do not make it sound like works or obedience to God is something that justifies us only before men alone. They sound like they are tied to salvation. I believe those who have been taught by their Pastors, or church for so long will simply not be able to see what these verses simply say.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,508
7,861
...
✟1,194,803.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Sorry, I forgot. I disagree with where you are coming from. The idea you are conveying here comes from the RCC and the EO churches which have corrupted the purity of the gospel over the centuries, and is why the reformation happened. But of course, I know you disagree with that.

While Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxism is unbiblical big time, I not a fan of the reformation, either.

Why?

Martin Luther (the leader of the reformation) said,
No sin will separate us from the Lamb, even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day. Do you think that the purchase price that was paid for the redemption of our sins by so great a Lamb is too small? Pray boldly—you too are a mighty sinner.”

What does this look like today?

Well, remember what happened in LA Fitness Gym in Pennsylvania on August 4, 2009? When a man named George Sodini fired 50 rounds into an aerobic class before turning the gun on himself. The shooting resulted four deaths (including Sodini himself) and nine injured. George Sodini was a member of the Tetelestai Church where he sat quietly for many years, listening to the deceptions of his preacher. Talking about the pastor of his Church, Sodini wrote in his blog dated Dec. 31, 2008,

“this guy” (Alan “Rick” Knapp) “teaches (and convinced me) you can commit mass murder then still go to heaven. Ask him.“

And in a post dated August 3, 2009, Sodini said;

“Maybe soon, I will see God and Jesus. At least that is what I was told. Eternal life does NOT depend on works. If it did, we will all be in hell. Christ paid for every sin, so how can I or you be judged by GOD for a sin when the penalty was already paid. People judge but that does not matter. I was reading the Bible and The Integrity of God beginning yesterday, because soon I will see them.

Source used:
O.S.A.S. – THE WATCHMAN'S CRY
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,508
7,861
...
✟1,194,803.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
This is what I believe Belief Alone-ism or Faith Alone eventually leads to. It leads to turning God's grace into a license for immorality. The same lie that Eve bought by the devil in the garden of Eden is being repeated today. The lie is: We can break God's command (or commands) and not die. Why does the belief of the devil that Eve bought into that led to the fall sound so similar to what many today believe? Yes, some in the Belief Alone Camp believe you cannot live in horrible amounts of sin and still be saved, and yet they will also double speak and say you can still sin on some level and still be saved (Thereby compromising the goodness of God).
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,508
7,861
...
✟1,194,803.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
If that person's faith is genuine, God cleans his conscience and he begins living his life with love for God and others. Agree?

I am not sure how this statement can be really true for you. Do you not hold to the OSAS view of 1 John 1:8 that says you will always commit some kind of mortal sin? Do you not hold to the belief that we are not under the Moral Law? If so, then that means one can break God's moral laws and still be saved without any remorse. One can be the next George Sodini and still be saved. If works and holy living have nothing to do with savlation, then we can live however we please. For if God does truly change us to do good works and to live holy, then we would not tell others that we are saved by a belief alone and mislead them to falsely think they could sin and still be saved. For if you told a child that they are saved by a belief alone in Jesus and it is in nothing they did, and you never seen that child again, they could turn out to be the next George Sodini by what you said. So it wouldn't matter if you lived a holy life or not if the message itself can potentially lead others to live unholy.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

JLB777

Newbie
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2012
5,905
1,258
✟403,811.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I disagree with your interpretation. James is writing that to a different audience than Paul in Rom. 3:28. James is addressing antinomianism, whereas Paul is addressing legalism. James is speaking of works proving the genuineness of faith, whereas Paul is assuming the faith is genuine. But I'm sure you disagree with that.



Both James and Paul teach the exact same principle of faith.


It’s known as the obedience of faith.


But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26



The entire book of Romans is contextually “bookended” with this principle.


It’s the law of faith: The law by which faith operates.






JLB
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Danthemailman

Well-Known Member
Jul 18, 2017
3,703
2,813
Midwest
✟305,185.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Both James and Paul teach the exact same principle of faith.

It’s known as the obedience of faith.

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26

The entire book of Romans is contextually “bookended” with this principle.

It’s the law of faith: The law by which faith operates.

JLB
The obedience of faith does not mean that we are saved by faith + obedience/works. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..). Now although Paul can speak of people’s initial response of choosing to believe the gospel as an act of obedience, in which he describes it as "obeying the gospel" (Romans 10:16; 1:16), the purpose of Paul’s apostleship was not merely to bring people to conversion but also to bring about transformed lives that were obedient to God.

Notice that Paul said they HAVE (already) received grace and apostleship FOR/UNTO obedience to the faith. Just as in Ephesians 2:10, Paul said that we are created in Christ Jesus FOR/UNTO good works. We are clearly saved FOR good works, NOT BY good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10) Paul did not say that they did not receive grace and apostleship until they produced obedience "afterwards." We have access by faith into grace.. Romans 5:2 not faith "and obedience/works." We are saved through faith in Christ first, then "unto" continued multiple acts of obedience/works.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Freedm
Upvote 0

JLB777

Newbie
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2012
5,905
1,258
✟403,811.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
The obedience of faith does not mean that we are saved by faith + obedience/works. (


I couldn’t agree more.


Obedience of faith is simply our faith. Obedience is the principle by which faith operates, or functions, otherwise faith remains dead, dormant and incomplete.


Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect (complete)? James 2:21-22


Abraham obeyed God and offered his son Isaac on the altar.

The “work” he performed was to obey the voice of God by which he received faith. Abraham’s faith was then complete, (perfect) and therefore alive, and able to justify him.



JLB
 
Upvote 0

Danthemailman

Well-Known Member
Jul 18, 2017
3,703
2,813
Midwest
✟305,185.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I couldn’t agree more.

Obedience of faith is simply our faith. Obedience is the principle by which faith operates, or functions, otherwise faith remains dead, dormant and incomplete.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect (complete)? James 2:21-22

Abraham obeyed God and offered his son Isaac on the altar.

The “work” he performed was to obey the voice of God by which he received faith. Abraham’s faith was then complete, (perfect) and therefore alive, and able to justify him.

JLB
In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham's faith as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It does not mean that Abraham was finally accounted as righteous based on the merits of his works "after" he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

We need to remember that James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.
 
  • Like
Reactions: tdidymas
Upvote 0

GDL

Well-Known Member
Jul 25, 2020
4,247
1,255
SE
✟105,387.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The obedience of faith does not mean that we are saved by faith + obedience/works.

Correct. It means we are saved by faith which is also obedience - or faith and obedience - or faith-obedience as you point out in your next sentence.

Drop the /works and you're there.
 
Upvote 0

TedT

Member since Job 38:7
Jan 11, 2021
1,850
334
Vancouver Island
✟85,846.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Jn 3:16 believes?

Is faith also partly works?[faith]
Since it involves volition?
You must choose to believe?
And continue in belief until death? Matt 24:13
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it [faith unto salvation] is the gift of God,

If you are under HIS promise of election to be saved from all sin it is HIS job to fulfill that promise in you. It is your job to take the high road of service to others in love and not the low road of sinfulness needing discipline: Heb 12:5-11.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

JLB777

Newbie
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2012
5,905
1,258
✟403,811.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham's faith as righteous.


Notice in James 2:21 it was Abraham’s obedience to God to offer his son Isaac on the altar that resulted in Abraham being declared righteous by God; his justification.



Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21




JLB
 
Upvote 0

Danthemailman

Well-Known Member
Jul 18, 2017
3,703
2,813
Midwest
✟305,185.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Notice in James 2:21 it was Abraham’s obedience to God to offer his son Isaac on the altar that resulted in Abraham being declared righteous by God; his justification.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21

JLB
That's false. "Justified by works" in James 2:21 does not mean saved by works. Go back and re-read post #93. Your conclusion leads to salvation by works and contradicts Romans 4:2-3.

Genesis 15:5 Then He brought him outside and said, “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.” 6 And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness. *This was many years before Abraham offered Isaac his son on the altar in Genesis 22.

Romans 4:2 For if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.”

You error by giving the word "justified" a broad brushed definition of "accounted as righteous."

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

You need to understand that James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)
 
  • Like
Reactions: tdidymas
Upvote 0