Faith alone? How much faith?

[Ephfourfive]

Jn 3:16 believes?

Is faith also partly works?
Since it involves volition?
You must choose to believe?
And continue in belief until death? Matt 24:13

 

[mlepfitjw]

Hello Ephfourfive sir,

John 3:16 the word believes mean, entrust; to have confidence in, and believing by hearing the word of God increases faith for others.

Faith without works is dead, if you do all you can to give to the needy yet you do not love a fellow brother in Christ, or only desire to boast for what you are doing without having any love. Faith is dead. (Love for God, and Love for Others) - Thankfulness, Praying for all people, living by the spirit, living for Christ, living for God. (Only God knows peoples hearts)

We are to love people, be kind, gentle, forgiving and merciful towards all people no matter who they are, or what they may have done, or what they what they may believe even doctrinal differences. (Which is what the Lord Jesus Christ taught us).

People who believe, can choose to increase their faith or not. Hearing the word of God increases faith. Also reading the word of God. There are different measures of faith for all people.

One who believes and has complete trust in God and loves God with all their mind, all their soul, all their strength, and all their heart will believe until death and have complete trust in him to be in control over their lives. (Thought sometimes we will stumble here and there) Spirit vs Flesh.

Anything that helpful please hold on to, anything that is not helpful please throw away. Just speaking off the cuff of what the holy spirit has reminded me of.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Jn 3:16 believes?

Is faith also partly works?
Since it involves volition?
You must choose to believe?
And continue in belief until death? Matt 24:13

Haha! You can guess at the Reformed answer to that!

My take on it is pretty simple. We can do nothing apart from Christ.

Your title asks "how much faith". If amount of faith is of any significance, then we are not capable of producing enough. Likewise, if the wisdom or knowledge and understanding of just what the faith is concerning, we do not understand the Gospel well enough. Likewise, too, as your subsequent questions ask, if the faith continues until death, our integrity and will-power is not enough. "The understanding of this message will bring sheer terror. Indeed, the bed is too short to stretch out on, and the blanket too small to wrap around you." --from Isaiah 28

The source of salvific faith is the Holy Spirit. The amount is irrelevant as to the integrity of it. Even our belief, our "cooperation" in it (I say as if there is a part of the work of belief that is ours, apart from Christ) is compelled by the Faith/ the understanding, the knowledge that the Spirit has concerning the Gospel.

OF COURSE! We work, we believe, we agonize even, we continue, we pursue, we persevere, but only in Christ --It is God in us that does these things.

We are not even complete beings, to claim any ability, apart from Christ.

 

[GDL]

Faith alone?
No (said while wearing full-body armor for protection).

How much faith?
Will defer to God on this one, since He is the Judge & the One who determines to grant us to Christ (John 6:65)

Jn 3:16 believes?

That's what it says. Now circle back to the 2 opening questions.

Is faith also partly works?

Maybe "non-meritorious work" would be better than "works"

Since it involves volition?

Yes it does. It also involves work & obedience (John 6:27-29), and hearing & learning (John 6:45).

You must choose to believe?

Yes.

And continue in belief until death? Matt 24:13

Yes.

 

[Ephfourfive]

Haha! You can guess at the Reformed answer to that!

My take on it is pretty simple. We can do nothing apart from Christ.

Your title asks "how much faith". If amount of faith is of any significance, then we are not capable of producing enough. Likewise, if the wisdom or knowledge and understanding of just what the faith is concerning, we do not understand the Gospel well enough. Likewise, too, as your subsequent questions ask, if the faith continues until death, our integrity and will-power is not enough. "The understanding of this message will bring sheer terror. Indeed, the bed is too short to stretch out on, and the blanket too small to wrap around you." --from Isaiah 28

The source of salvific faith is the Holy Spirit. The amount is irrelevant as to the integrity of it. Even our belief, our "cooperation" in it (I say as if there is a part of the work of belief that is ours, apart from Christ) is compelled by the Faith/ the understanding, the knowledge that the Spirit has concerning the Gospel.

OF COURSE! We work, we believe, we agonize even, we continue, we pursue, we persevere, but only in Christ --It is God in us that does these things.

We are not even complete beings, to claim any ability, apart from Christ.

And in the church the body the new covenant

 

[tdidymas]

Jn 3:16 believes?

Is faith also partly works?
Since it involves volition?
You must choose to believe?
And continue in belief until death? Matt 24:13

I differ with you on your volition aspect of faith. In order to choose to believe, you must already believe. Think about it:

For you to able to choose to believe in Christ (or continue to believe), this requires you to already believe in these:
1. That God is, and rewards those who seek Him
2. That you are a sinner in need of a savior
3. That there is hope in following Christ and obeying Him
4. That the gospel preached to you is true
5. That God knows what you need, and you don't

This is not an exhaustive list. Believing in the gospel of Christ is not some switch that one turns on by volition, or some choice one makes like which brand to buy. Believing in Christ is far more complex, requiring underlying beliefs that arise out of the core of the human heart. It's a spiritual matter, requiring the help of the Holy Spirit, and not a product of mere natural reasoning.

 

[Ephfourfive]

I differ with you on your volition aspect of faith. In order to choose to believe, you must already believe. Think about it:

For you to able to choose to believe in Christ (or continue to believe), this requires you to already believe in these:
1. That God is, and rewards those who seek Him
2. That you are a sinner in need of a savior
3. That there is hope in following Christ and obeying Him
4. That the gospel preached to you is true
5. That God knows what you need, and you don't

This is not an exhaustive list. Believing in the gospel of Christ is not some switch that one turns on by volition, or some choice one makes like which brand to buy. Believing in Christ is far more complex, requiring underlying beliefs that arise out of the core of the human heart. It's a spiritual matter, requiring the help of the Holy Spirit, and not a product of mere natural reasoning.

Then all are saved? Since we can do nothing
Faith of contrary to reason?

 

[tdidymas]

Then all are saved? Since we can do nothing
Faith of contrary to reason?

Your exaggerative responses here doesn't negate what I said in any way. Nothing you say here is relevant to my previous post. If you think it is, then please get specific. Otherwise, are you just wanting to argue?

 

[Ephfourfive]

Your exaggerative responses here doesn't negate what I said in any way. Nothing you say here is relevant to my previous post. If you think it is, then please get specific. Otherwise, are you just wanting to argue?

Just trying to get biblical understanding
What about baptism is it necessary for salvation?

 

[tdidymas]

Just trying to get biblical understanding
What about baptism is it necessary for salvation?

It was impossible for the thief on the cross to be baptized, yet Jesus promised him paradise. Therefore, baptism is not necessary for salvation. On the other hand, if someone believes in Christ, then why wouldn't they want to obey Christ to be baptized, if they had the chance? But if they have no opportunity, then it would be evil to tell them they can't be saved.

 

[fhansen]

Jn 3:16 believes?

Is faith also partly works?
Since it involves volition?
You must choose to believe?
And continue in belief until death? Matt 24:13

Faith is both a gift, and a human choice to accept and embrace and exercise that gift, and to continue to do so throughout our lives. It’s meant to grow, and fully flowered it would result in the being God created us to be, and one who loves Him with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength.

 

[bling]

Jn 3:16 believes?

Is faith also partly works?
Since it involves volition?
You must choose to believe?
And continue in belief until death? Matt 24:13

God defines work in scripture, you can easily find what you could not do on the Sabbath and also a lot of things you could do on the Sabbath (they were not considered "work"). You could walk around, carry and feed a child, eat, fix a meal, and so on.
Worship is not work, so doing stuff to help those in need in obedience to God's commands is worship and not work.

 

[bling]

Jn 3:16 believes?

Is faith also partly works?
Since it involves volition?
You must choose to believe?
And continue in belief until death? Matt 24:13

Every mature adult has been gifted with “faith” and use that faith throughout their lives. The “faith we do have does not become “saving faith” until we turn our faith toward a benevolent Creator.

Most of the time we have faith in ourselves to both do and not do and think stuff.

Atheists and agnostics actually have to have a great deal of “faith” to believe God does not exist.

Atheists and agnostics talk about a “lack of evidence” to have “faith” in God. That is not “faith” they are looking for, but knowledge of God’s existence.

To have “faith” in a Creator is extremely easy since every tree around us is evidence of a creator, if we allow the tree to be evidence. The atheist or agnostic cannot explain life, so the tree does not support the nonexistence of God.

Saving faith is not accepting “Christ or God” like we might think, but humbly accepting God’s Love (God is Love). The problem is: God is offering an unconditional, sacrificial, unselfish gift of Love (mercy/grace/charity/forgiveness/help), but we have to receive that gift as it is given (as pure charity) and man does not like to accept charity.

Just the very little faith needed to believe there is God (which you have to be a fool not to believe) is about all that is needed to humbly accept an undeserved very needed gift from your enemy God. You are like a soldier struggling to win against a very power enemy you hate but know you can’t beat. You have run out of hope in self and thus turn to this hated enemy (God) with just that little “faith” in His Love which would allow Him to give you just some undeserved relieve. Again, you are not joining your enemy or suddenly Loving your hated enemy, just wimping out and giving up.

Yes, there comes a time with most humans at which they will never accept God’s charity (only God knows this), since they have continuously refused it in the past. That refusing of God’s Love will keep them out of heaven, since they do not want Godly type Love and heaven is one huge Love Feast of only Godly type Love. These people would not be happy in heaven.

 

[Ephfourfive]

It was impossible for the thief on the cross to be baptized, yet Jesus promised him paradise. Therefore, baptism is not necessary for salvation. On the other hand, if someone believes in Christ, then why wouldn't they want to obey Christ to be baptized, if they had the chance? But if they have no opportunity, then it would be evil to tell them they can't be saved.

Yes but if it is possible and they refuse then what?

The thief does not apply cos the requirement did not happen till the death of Jesus

 

[tdidymas]

Yes but if it is possible and they refuse then what?

The thief does not apply cos the requirement did not happen till the death of Jesus

"Today you will be with Me in paradise" - a prophecy of a future event which happened after His death, so the thief's situation applies after all.

Think about this: if someone has the opportunity to be baptized, but refuses, then for what reason are they refusing? Is it because they have fear of water? Perhaps no desire to obey Christ after all? Maybe a hostile attitude toward all traditions? Or they think they can do it later? What if they believe they aren't worthy of it yet? Who is to say? Only God can judge the motives of people.

I've known people who were saved and filled with the Spirit and showed spiritual growth without being baptized. Some of them got baptized later. So, based on my reading of the wider context of the NT, simple reasoning, and experience, I'd say that baptism is not necessary for salvation. This doesn't mean I recommend anyone to refuse baptism, or condone its absence from ministry.

On the other hand, those who teach that baptism is necessary for salvation tend to be legalistic in their teaching and practice, according to my experience.

 

[Ephfourfive]

"Today you will be with Me in paradise" - a prophecy of a future event which happened after His death, so the thief's situation applies after all.

Think about this: if someone has the opportunity to be baptized, but refuses, then for what reason are they refusing? Is it because they have fear of water? Perhaps no desire to obey Christ after all? Maybe a hostile attitude toward all traditions? Or they think they can do it later? What if they believe they aren't worthy of it yet? Who is to say? Only God can judge the motives of people.

I've known people who were saved and filled with the Spirit and showed spiritual growth without being baptized. Some of them got baptized later. So, based on my reading of the wider context of the NT, simple reasoning, and experience, I'd say that baptism is not necessary for salvation. This doesn't mean I recommend anyone to refuse baptism, or condone its absence from ministry.

On the other hand, those who teach that baptism is necessary for salvation tend to be legalistic in their teaching and practice, according to my experience.

Saved how?
Matt 24:13

 

[Soyeong]

Jn 3:16 believes?

Is faith also partly works?
Since it involves volition?
You must choose to believe?
And continue in belief until death? Matt 24:13

In John 3:36, it equates believing in Jesus with obeying him. What we beleive is expressed through our actions, which is why James 2:17-18 says that faith without works is dead and that he would show his faith by his works, so doing good works in obedience to God is what faith looks like. Every example of faith listed in Hebrews 11 is also an example of doing works. Yes, we must choose to believe and continue to believe until death.

 

[tdidymas]

Saved how?
Matt 24:13

I take it you are questioning my statement "I've known people who were saved and filled with the Spirit and showed spiritual growth without being baptized."

People are saved by grace through faith (alone), as stated in Eph. 2:8. I'm fairly sure you believe in the salvation results in faith plus works formula, and this is why you question what I said.

I believe the scripture teaches that we are saved through faith alone, and the apostle Paul makes that pretty clear. Now, if you want to split hairs over what faith is, I'm willing to go toe-to-toe with you.

But in advance, I can tell you that many people, including leaders in the RCC, do not understand faith correctly, and is the reason why there are certain statements against the faith alone idea in the articles of Trent.

Also, your application of Matt. 24:13 is mishandled IMO. You appear to be using it as a justification for the idea that "enduring to the end" (which is a work) causes salvation, but that is not what the verse says. That verse is identifying those whom God saves, and is not a cause-effect statement. I suspect that you are assuming it is cause-effect, and I'm saying that assumption is incorrect. "Those who..." is an identifier of the ones to be saved.

 

[Ephfourfive]

I take it you are questioning my statement "I've known people who were saved and filled with the Spirit and showed spiritual growth without being baptized."

People are saved by grace through faith (alone), as stated in Eph. 2:8. I'm fairly sure you believe in the salvation results in faith plus works formula, and this is why you question what I said.

I believe the scripture teaches that we are saved through faith alone, and the apostle Paul makes that pretty clear. Now, if you want to split hairs over what faith is, I'm willing to go toe-to-toe with you.

But in advance, I can tell you that many people, including leaders in the RCC, do not understand faith correctly, and is the reason why there are certain statements against the faith alone idea in the articles of Trent.

Also, your application of Matt. 24:13 is mishandled IMO. You appear to be using it as a justification for the idea that "enduring to the end" (which is a work) causes salvation, but that is not what the verse says. That verse is identifying those whom God saves, and is not a cause-effect statement. I suspect that you are assuming it is cause-effect, and I'm saying that assumption is incorrect. "Those who..." is an identifier of the ones to be saved.

Eph 2 refers to redemption not salvation

Redemption, Justification, Sanctification, and Salvation!

Redemption: 100 percent the work of God, thru the life, death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ! All mankind are redeemed in Christ! Eph 2
Galatians 2:16 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law...

Justification: our acceptance of redemption thru faith and baptism! Become a disciple and member of Christ and His Church! Jn 3:5 acts 2:38 Mk 16:16 He who believes and is baptized shall be saved. 1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.


Sanctification: the life of grace in the holy sacrifice of the mass and sacraments, prayer, virture, and good works, the just living by faith, and faith working thru love! Phil 1:29 called to suffer with Christ.
All done in Christ thru His grace! Jn 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Salvation: a christian in the state if grace at the moment of death we enter into the salvation of the Lord! Mt 24:44-47 faithful servant! Jn 15:1-5 abide in me. Mt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Heb 4:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Rom 13:11 ...for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
Then Once saved always saved!

1 Pet 3:20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark all died and outside the church there is no salvation!

 

[Ephfourfive]

Faith alone? No

Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

1 cor 13:2 all faith without charity avails nothing
Greatest would be Faith is salvation was by faith alone but the greatest is charity