What if Jesus comes tomorrow and it turns out these scriptures mean exactly as they read?

East of Eden

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We don't know that she died. Yes, Mary did the will of God, that is why all generations (that includes you and me) are to call her blessed.

Bunk, here is her tomb: Tomb of the Virgin Mary - Wikipedia Any notion she did not die is just superstitious nonsense.

If Jesus need a mother without sin to be sinless Himself, wouldn't Mary need two sinless parents, who would have needed four sinless parents, who would have needed eight sinless parents, etc., etc.?
 
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Root of Jesse

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It is to them. As I said before, dying for a belief does nothing to prove it's truth.
Technically, killing yourself is suicide, not martyrdom. Someone persecuting you and killing you for your beliefs is martyrdom.
 
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Root of Jesse

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Bunk, here is her tomb: Tomb of the Virgin Mary - Wikipedia Any notion she did not die is just superstitious nonsense.

If Jesus need a mother without sin to be sinless Himself, wouldn't Mary need two sinless parents, who would have needed four sinless parents, who would have needed eight sinless parents, etc., etc.?
Again, Wikipedia isn't a great source.
But I have a question...Christians of that era knew where the icons of the faith were buried. They always marked the graves in some way, usually with the ICTHYS. We have no body of Mary. We believe Mary was assumed into heaven, which would account for no body. Certainly there may have been a tomb, but there is nothing Biblical that says either way.
There is nothing saying Jesus NEEDED a mother without sin. But we can see where it would be fitting for that to be the case. Also, Mary is the reappearance of the Ark of the Covenant. She contained the Word of God, the symbol of the Royal Priesthood, and the Bread of Life. The container itself was pure, and Mary is pure.
 
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Root of Jesse

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Well, maybe they don't mean exactly what they say. Why? Because the return of Jesus will be no surprise. He comes 7 years after the Antichrist appears and 1290 days "From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up. (Daniel 12:11-12)"

So who should be surprised by the return of Jesus? Anyone who can't read?

So clearly the scriptures mean something else. What could that be?
So you would read apocalyptic literature the same way you read the Psalms and the gospels? No, you have to interpret things based on what the author was trying to convey. But the gospels give us the words Jesus used. That's what we're discussing here. Jesus told us we don't know the time or the place of his next coming.
 
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East of Eden

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Veneration is different than worship.

From my observation of the RCC, in the real world it is a distinction without much of a difference. Even your church has criticized these abuses.

And Wiki is often different than serious research.

It is generally less biased than the rest of us.

Maybe you don't believe Mary is in heaven,

Straw man, I never said that.

but we do. Revelation says those in heaven hear our prayers, and pray with us.

What, they need to handle the overflow our omnipotent God can't handle? "For there is one God, and there is ONE mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus," I Tim. 2:5 That leaves out Mary, or any saint in heaven. The Bible says all believers are saints, would you pray to another Christian on earth? See What are the prayers of the saints in Revelation 5:8? | GotQuestions.org
Mary never sinned.

Where does the Bible say that?

I know, Romans 3, but if you believe that all means all, then you must believe Jesus Himself sinned.

Of course not, you look at Scripture in the context of other Scripture, which clearly says Jesus was both God and man and was sinless, and was predicted to be so in the Old Testament, see Is. 53. What other human do you believe never sinned, or is that in a future Catholic doctrine?

Nowhere in Scripture does it say Mary gave birth to other children. It does mention Jesus' brothers, but that, again, is different.

It says Jesus had brothers and sisters, do you think they were virgin births also?

If I'm mowing my lawn and my young boy wants to 'help' me push the mower, he would be a co-mower. Even if he doesn't help a bit. By the same token, Mary, who said to the steward at the wedding feast, says 'Do whatever he tells you', is co-redemptrix.

So whatever good works we do to advance the Kingdom makes us co-redeemers?

Committing suicide is different than being a martyr.

Another straw man, my obvious point was simply dying for a belief does not prove the veracity of that belief.
 
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Root of Jesse

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They do mean exactly as they read. The problem is with us and our interpretations.
I agree with you. But Jesus said we must eat his flesh and drink his blood. Doesn't that mean exactly what it says? I don't think Jesus would tell us we must do something, and then not show us exactly how to do so. He said at the Last Supper that the bread was His body, and the cup was His blood.
 
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Root of Jesse

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No, you haven't - but some of your fellow Catholics have said just that on these forums.
I can only speak for myself. All Trintarian baptized who believe in Christ are Christians, and that's what the Catholic Church teaches. We believe you (Protestants) don't have the fullness of the Truth, but you have the essence of the Truth. In fact, if one of you were to join the Catholic Church, we accept your baptism as valid.
 
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East of Eden

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Again, Wikipedia isn't a great source.

And again, it is generally less biased than the rest of us.

But I have a question...Christians of that era knew where the icons of the faith were buried. They always marked the graves in some way, usually with the ICTHYS. We have no body of Mary.

We have no body for most Biblical figures, does that mean they were assumed into heaven also?

We believe Mary was assumed into heaven,

On what basis?

which would account for no body. Certainly there may have been a tomb, but there is nothing Biblical that says either way.
There is nothing saying Jesus NEEDED a mother without sin. But we can see where it would be fitting for that to be the case. Also, Mary is the reappearance of the Ark of the Covenant. She contained the Word of God, the symbol of the Royal Priesthood, and the Bread of Life. The container itself was pure, and Mary is pure.

So how do normal marital relations, or any other human bodily function for that matter, make one less pure? It is this wrong thinking IMHO that has led to the disastrous celibate priest policy of your church.
 
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East of Eden

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I can only speak for myself. All Trintarian baptized who believe in Christ are Christians, and that's what the Catholic Church teaches. We believe you (Protestants) don't have the fullness of the Truth, but you have the essence of the Truth.

That is what I believe about the RCC church, or perhaps better put, you have added your own 'traditions of men', as Jesus put it when criticizing the Pharisees, on to the truth. Billy Graham used to say God's people are found in all churches (he wasn't referring to cults like JW, Mormons, etc.), and Pope John II said to Graham, "We are brothers." There is a lot more acceptance that Christians are in other denominations than you saw a generation ago, and that is a good thing. IMHO the real division in Christianity is those holding to an orthodox faith and the revisionists who accept sins such as abortion, homosexual behavior, etc.

In fact, if one of you were to join the Catholic Church, we accept your baptism as valid.

You also accept married priests coming from the Anglican world, which makes me wonder why you hang on to that failed policy of celibate priests.
 
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GraceBro

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I agree with you. But Jesus said we must eat his flesh and drink his blood. Doesn't that mean exactly what it says? I don't think Jesus would tell us we must do something, and then not show us exactly how to do so. He said at the Last Supper that the bread was His body, and the cup was His blood.
It is just the Lord's way of explaining the spiritual with the physical. Just like He called Himself, "the bread of life" and that He would give "living water." Jesus is not actual bread and water but is referring to giving up His physical body as a sacrifice for our sins and then giving us the Holy Spirit. He is not encouraging cannibalism or saying the bread and wine of communion is His body and blood. It is symbolic. "Do this in remembrance of Me."
What did Jesus mean when He said we must eat His flesh and drink His blood? | GotQuestions.org
 
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East of Eden

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It is just the Lord's way of explaining the spiritual with the physical. Just like He called Himself, "the bread of life" and that He would give "living water." Jesus is not actual bread and water but is referring to giving up His physical body as a sacrifice for our sins and then giving us the Holy Spirit. He is not encouraging cannibalism or saying the bread and wine of communion is His body and blood. It is symbolic. "Do this in remembrance of Me."

It is somewhat like when He said 'I am the door' He isn't a literal door, although I do think He comes to us in a mysterious way in communion. CS Lewis said the door between this world and the next is never thinner than during communion.
 
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GraceBro

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It is somewhat like when He said 'I am the door' He isn't a literal door, although I do think He comes to us in a mysterious way in communion. CS Lewis said the door between this world and the next is never thinner than during communion.
He is the door, the narrow way, the gate, etc. It's all symbolism in regards to salvation.
 
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Root of Jesse

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And again, it is generally less biased than the rest of us.
But often mis-informed, too.
We have no body for most Biblical figures, does that mean they were assumed into heaven also?
We know where Peter was buried. We know where many of the early martyrs, even nameless ones, were buried.
On what basis?
First, Revelation tells us that she is bodily in heaven.
Second: Assumption of Mary - Wikipedia
Third: The Assumption of Mary in History | Catholic Answers | Catholic Answers
So how do normal marital relations, or any other human bodily function for that matter, make one less pure? It is this wrong thinking IMHO that has led to the disastrous celibate priest policy of your church.
Well, Marital relations or other bodily functions don't make one less pure. I didn't say they did.
That said, your opinion (or mine for that matter) doesn't matter regarding the celibate priest discipline. It is not always true that priests are celibate, some are even married. Celibacy is a gift of the priest to God.
 
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Root of Jesse

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That is what I believe about the RCC church, or perhaps better put, you have added your own 'traditions of men', as Jesus put it when criticizing the Pharisees, on to the truth. Billy Graham used to say God's people are found in all churches (he wasn't referring to cults like JW, Mormons, etc.), and Pope John II said to Graham, "We are brothers." There is a lot more acceptance that Christians are in other denominations than you saw a generation ago, and that is a good thing. IMHO the real division in Christianity is those holding to an orthodox faith and the revisionists who accept sins such as abortion, homosexual behavior, etc.
As stated before your opinion and mine don't count. Traditions of men was a reference to the Pharisees widening the scope of the rules. That division you write about at the end of the paragraph is mostly in Protestant denominations. Though there are Catholic people right along side.
You also accept married priests coming from the Anglican world, which makes me wonder why you hang on to that failed policy of celibate priests.
Because a priest is to be available to his flock 24/7 with no regard for family obligations. I've seen faith-based movies where the pastor is struggling to make ends meet and takes on a second job. Or where he has family obligations and a parishioner needs assistance. I prefer to make a priest part of my family by offering him fellowship in my home. And I pray for them.
 
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Valletta

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Bunk, here is her tomb: Tomb of the Virgin Mary - Wikipedia Any notion she did not die is just superstitious nonsense.

If Jesus need a mother without sin to be sinless Himself, wouldn't Mary need two sinless parents, who would have needed four sinless parents, who would have needed eight sinless parents, etc., etc.?
Anyone can post on Wikipedia, and can do so anonymously. Wikipedia is great to use for non-controversial subjects, I use it for geographical information such as where a particular county is in the state.
For controversial subjects the story can change minute by minute. There are people who post on Wikipedia who think God is "superstitious nonsense."
As to Mary we simply don't know.
 
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bbbbbbb

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Anyone can post on Wikipedia, and can do so anonymously. Wikipedia is great to use for non-controversial subjects, I use it for geographical information such as where a particular county is in the state.
For controversial subjects the story can change minute by minute. There are people who post on Wikipedia who think God is "superstitious nonsense."
As to Mary we simply don't know.

There are also people who post on Wikipedia who believe the earth is flat. They have no impact on the veracity of locating where a city might be. If people post misinformation or disinformation on Wikipedia without providing solid references, their posting is automatically removed. I myself have contributed to various Wikipedia articles and have found Wikipedia to be accurate in the various areas of my personal expertise.
 
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Strong in Him

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I can only speak for myself. All Trintarian baptized who believe in Christ are Christians, and that's what the Catholic Church teaches. We believe you (Protestants) don't have the fullness of the Truth, but you have the essence of the Truth. In fact, if one of you were to join the Catholic Church, we accept your baptism as valid.

Jesus is THE truth - we have him just as you do.
 
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Valletta

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There are also people who post on Wikipedia who believe the earth is flat. They have no impact on the veracity of locating where a city might be. If people post misinformation or disinformation on Wikipedia without providing solid references, their posting is automatically removed. I myself have contributed to various Wikipedia articles and have found Wikipedia to be accurate in the various of my personal expertise.
Actually Wikipedia is quite politically slanted.
 
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The Liturgist

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Human blood, I agree with you. But Jesus' blood wasn't human.

Actually according to a pure Chalcedonian definition it would be fully human and fully divine simultaneously I would think. Or indeed any definition where you have communicatio idiomatum. I don’t think it works to say the blood of our Lord was not human, because blood is proper to the human nature and there is no way of knowing how it relates to the divine nature because God in His divine essence is unknowable. But because our Lord is also fully God, we also can’t say the blood is not divine. The word “theandric” becomes important.

And this is what we keep forgetting in these pointless sectarian arguments, that being that God, in the person of His Son, the Word, did put on our humanity so that we could be saved from damnation owing to our own corruption, and indeed rise to a state higher than Adam by putting on Christ. This is the key message of the early church, which we also find preserved in theory by the most catechized members of the Eastern church; in practice most Eastern priests and laity accept this at a more subconscious level because ultimately it is a mystery and soteriology itself cannot be entirely intellectualized, hence the word “faith” which to a certain extent signifies an acceptance of the sacred mystery of Christianity.
 
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