Question to Reformed

What is your definition of "reformed" in this instance?

friend of said:

Jesus, when lifted up, will draw all men to Himself (John 12:32)
conclusion:
If God isn't willing that any should perish, and if He will draw all men to Himself, why and how is anyone ever lost? Shouldn't all be saved?

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By your understanding of that scripture, this isn't a Reformed issue. No matter your take on predestination, your interpretation implies that God failed to do what he set out to do through Christ.

friend of said:

To me, the answer is obvious, that people decline Christ's offer of salvation due to their own free will.

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Then you suggest that he failed to draw all men unto himself. To draw is to cause someone to want. If they want something, then they won't reject it. If they have rejected it, then they were not drawn.

The Reformed position essentially agrees with you that they decline Christ's offer due to their own free will, but the Reformed position also states that the human will, if left to its own nature, will always reject Christ, because the human will is naturally sinful. A person will never accept Christ unless drawn to do so.

So, where your position would suggest that some people choose Christ, and some do not, simply because they are innately inclined either way, the Reformed position would say that all would not choose Christ, but that some are drawn to do so. In other words, whereas the Reformed theology would say that some are drawn, your own assertion is that none are drawn. Therefore, if you would suggest a discrepancy between the verse suggesting that all are drawn, and the reality that only some appear to be drawn, then you cannot resolve the matter by saying that none are drawn. You put yourself in a position even more at odds with the scripture you might say refutes us. Essentially, you assert a position that rejects the scripture, entirely, and then you would attempt to use that same scripture as evidence against the Reformed position, which only partially appears at odds with it.

The truth is that the disparity can only be reconciled in one of two ways. Either,

1. Everyone does actually come to Christ (your perception of reality is wrong), or
2. The meaning of the scripture is not quite that everyone is drawn to Christ (your perception of scripture is wrong).

Hello @friend of, I'll start with the verse from 2 Peter. In fact, here it is for the sake of discussion.

The first question that should be asked is who, specifically, is the "us", the "any" and the "all" referring to in v9? The best way to determine that (typically) is to look at the context, so let's do so.

The Apostle Peter wrote both to and about the saints in his 2nd Epistle, as well about those who are God's 'saints to be' (so to speak). Chapter 3 was also written to and about those same two groups, as was the passage that v9 is found in.

So, the "us", the "any" and the "all" in v9 (the group of people that God is said to be longsuffering towards) are all in reference to God's elect, those who He knows will eventually come to saving faith in the Lord Jesus.

On the other hand, He has no reason to be longsuffering towards the reprobate, obviously, since He already knows that they never will (come to saving faith, that is).

I hope that helps a bit!!

As for John 12, here again is the verse for reference sake.

Once again we need to figure out who the word "all" is referring to. Is it "all" men, women and children throughout history w/o exception ... or is it "all" w/o distinction, IOW, Jews ~AND~ Greeks, certain men, woman and children from every tribe and tongue and people and nation instead?

Before I answer this last one directly, I have a few questions for you (assuming that you believe the meaning of v32 is "all", w/o exception, that is). My questions are, "has it happened" and if so, "in what way did it happen" (and how do we know that it did)?

We know that millions (or perhaps billions?) of people have died w/o ever knowing Him (or even hearing His Name in some cases), so in what way can it truly be said that He has drawn "all" men ~w/o exception~ to Himself?

Thanks

God bless you!!

--David

friend of said:

That's interesting. I hadn't thought of it like that before. Thank you for your response.

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St.Worm explained it better than I ever could have so I'll stay out of this. But, I just wanted to say when looking at any Bible verse whether its from the OT or the NT you always have to look at the context. There are places in Romans for example that are highly confusing and sound contradictory to scripture until you look at the context in which Paul wrote his letter.

Lets take another verse for an example that causes confusion. John 3:16.


Does John 3:16 really mean all people around the world who ever lived as it is taken today? If that's the case why was Jacob loved and Esau hated (Malachai 1:3)? Why was Cain not shown love but his Brother was? If God had showed Cain love Abel probably wouldn't have been murdered. What about Judas? Was Judas given the chance at Salvation when scripture calls him doomed to destruction from before his birth? Jesus said it would have been better for him if he had never been born but that he had to be born so that scripture could be fulfilled. What about when God chose to save only Noah and his family from certain destruction and doomed the rest of the human race (He sealed the door shut on the arc so nobody would be let in (Genesis 7:16). What about the people from Sodom and Gomorah?

You see John 3:16 meaning everyone who ever lived would kind of be against scripture right? Even Pharoah's heart was hardened by God so that he could not understand and wouldn't let Israel go free.

Did these doomed people have the chance at salvation? No, scripture condemns them as forever lost.

Another example, God says in John 6:37-40 that not one person that God the Father saves will be lost. Not one of them. So if not the entire human race is saved and God meant to save them then God not only unsucceeded in a mission that he cannot fail but he also, lied to us. Two things that are completely incompatible with the completely Holy, Sovereign, and just God of scripture.

My understanding of "all men" implies men from all nations, tongues and tribes, not every individual ever born....

If we see "all men' as every individual, then God is impotent to accomplish His Will through Christ.

However, if we see "all men" as men from every nation, tribe and tongue, then indeed as the end of the Story indicates, God's Will, will be accomplished through Christ our Lord - without fail.

friend of said:

If God isn't willing that any should perish, and if He will draw all men to Himself, why and how is anyone ever lost? Shouldn't all be saved?

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To answer the questions plainly, Calvinists don’t believe that God is unwilling that any should perish. He’s both willing that they die and able to see that they do perish.

Why is anyone lost? Because, according to Calvinists everywhere, it’s Gods will that they perish for his glory.

How is anyone ever lost? They’re lost because, according to Calvinists everywhere, God decrees that they will be lost. God uses “sin” as a means to condemn people forever, though, again according to Calvinists, God authored the sin or decreed the sin or planned the sin (some variation on those words.)

He could have decreed that nobody sin, but he would rather humankind sin and then he may condemn people for his glory.

Hello @Cormack, on what basis do you believe that God will judge and condemn certain people to eternity in Hell/in the Lake of Fire, or do you believe that something different will happen to those who die outside of Christ ... and if so, what do you believe will happen to them instead?

Thanks!

--David