Why humanity will be declared guilty for their actions.

[Neostarwcc]

It's made very clear in Psalm 139:16 whether you read it in Hebrew or whether you read it in your favorite Bible translation. God has predetermined the lives of humanity. It's not just declared by King David the entire Bible confirms it.

While God has predetermined the lives of humanity this does not mean the following:

1. That humanity will not be judged for and held accountable for their own actions.
2. That humanity are robots who have no will and are incapable of making their own decisions.
3. That God is in any way, shape, or form Evil or unrighteous.


After all Paul answers this very question in the book of Romans with. "Who are you to answer back to God?"

Paul recognized this very subject as people interpreting to be "unfair" or "unjust". But nowhere in the Bible does it say that anyone will get injustice. We cannot tell God what to be or who to be God just is as he is. I know many people will say "I don't want to worship a God like that" and come up with their own ideas of what God is and can be but the God of the Bible is the God of the Bible. You cannot hide from the God of the Bible and ultimately it is the God of the Bible that is real and will one day judge the world.

But lets try to answer this question differently than how Paul answered it. If God has already determined the lives of humanity why exactly are we held accountable for our actions? Afterall God declared that they happen right? Well, yes that's correct. God DID declare that they happen.

The simplest way to answer this question is because they're OUR actions. Just because God has declared what we will do and nobody can overwrite God doesn't mean that we did not in fact do the actions. It also doesnt mean that God has no right to do with his creation whatever he wants to do with them. God also is a God who knows the entire lives of humanity and how they will react and what they will do. But God not only knows the actions of mankind, the Bible says that he predetermined them and that he also will judge the wicked based on what they have done.

So why are we held accountable for actions that God declared in the first place? Afterall it was God who made us all sinners right? Wrong. While God predestined the actions of Adam and Eve he did not actually make them do those actions. Adam and Eve brought sin into the world on their own accord and by their own "free" will. They after all, ate the forbidden fruit because they believed lucifer when he said that they will become God's if they ate it. That is how sin entered a "perfect" world. Not just because God predetermined it to happen.

It's like this and I can use myself as an example. I weigh over 400 pounds. I'm a glutton who enjoys eating unhealthy food. I eat unhealthy food because I want to and because it tastes good. God may have predetermined that I be morbidly obese but it is my own actions and "free" will that cause me to eat tasty and unhealthg food and thus sin and thus make myself slowly fatter. It's also been the will of God that I lose almost 40 pounds (I weigh 420 pounds now and weighed almost 455 at my heaviest). I did the actions of losing the weight despite God declaring " you will lose 40 pounds."


This may not be "fair" but this is how things are run. God to a lot of people is "unfair" but we see God at the moment as sinners. One day we will see God for what he truly is whether we spend eternity in heaven or hell. Not one word will be spoken on judgement day except from God because we will ALL see that God was right all along and that we deserve to be punished because we've sinned against a completek Holy and righteous God.


Paul really does answer this very question perfectly "who are we to talk back to God and tell God how to be?" It's about time we stop looking at God as unrighteous sinners and worship him for what he truly is, the God of the universe!

 

[d taylor]

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​

No they will not, Jesus took away the sin of the world. So if Jesus has paid the price and taken away all sin from every person born. Why will an unbeliever have to pay for his sins. The unbeliever ends up in the lake of fire, because they never believed in Jesus for Eternal Life/The Life of God.

 

[RandyPNW]

It's made very clear in Psalm 139:16 whether you read it in Hebrew or whether you read it in your favorite Bible translation. God has predetermined the lives of humanity. It's not just declared by King David the entire Bible confirms it.

I don't think God said that He predetermined the choices of men in all situations. That would be Fatalism.

What He did do is predetermine a set number of people to be His children. Those who do not respond to this calling will show, in their choices, bad decisions. Clearly, God can anticipate that if we don't work with Him our works will be works of rebellion.

 

[BobRyan]

It's made very clear in Psalm 139:16 whether you read it in Hebrew or whether you read it in your favorite Bible translation. God has predetermined the lives of humanity

It does not say "predetermined"

Ps 139
16 Your eyes have seen my formless substance;
And in Your book were written
All the days that were ordained for me,
When as yet there was not one of them.

each person has a certain number of days, that number is known to God.

God who "foreknows"
1 Peter 1:To those who reside as strangers, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,

Knowing something ahead of time is not the same thing as willing it to happen.

2 Peter 3 "God is not WILLING that any should perish but that ALL should come to repentance"

While God has predetermined the lives of humanity this does not mean the following:

1. That humanity will not be judged for and held accountable for their own actions.
2. That humanity are robots who have no will and are incapable of making their own decisions.
3. That God is in any way, shape, or form Evil or unrighteous.

True.

Because God sovereignly ordains "whosoever will - may come"

 

[RandyPNW]

It does not say "predetermined"

Ps 139
16 Your eyes have seen my formless substance;
And in Your book were written
All the days that were ordained for me,
When as yet there was not one of them.

each person has a certain number of days, that number is known to God.

God who "foreknows"
1 Peter 1:To those who reside as strangers, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,

Knowing something ahead of time is not the same thing as willing it to happen.

2 Peter 3 "God is not WILLING that any should perish but that ALL should come to repentance"



True.

Because God sovereignly ordains "whosoever will - may come"

It may be that God has "ordained" our days from birth, even though we or others may interfere with that plan? I'm not sure everything is "fixed" as such, though I think the things God has promised are indeed "fixed."

For example, God has "ordained" from the creation of Man that he should live in the image of God. However, that "image" has been severely tarnished and delayed by the willful choices of Man. In other words, what God has "ordained" is not "fixed" as such, though it will be fulfilled eventually.

 

[bling]

It's made very clear in Psalm 139:16 whether you read it in Hebrew or whether you read it in your favorite Bible translation. God has predetermined the lives of humanity. It's not just declared by King David the entire Bible confirms it.

While God has predetermined the lives of humanity this does not mean the following:

1. That humanity will not be judged for and held accountable for their own actions.
2. That humanity are robots who have no will and are incapable of making their own decisions.
3. That God is in any way, shape, or form Evil or unrighteous.


After all Paul answers this very question in the book of Romans with. "Who are you to answer back to God?"

Paul recognized this very subject as people interpreting to be "unfair" or "unjust". But nowhere in the Bible does it say that anyone will get injustice. We cannot tell God what to be or who to be God just is as he is. I know many people will say "I don't want to worship a God like that" and come up with their own ideas of what God is and can be but the God of the Bible is the God of the Bible. You cannot hide from the God of the Bible and ultimately it is the God of the Bible that is real and will one day judge the world.

But lets try to answer this question differently than how Paul answered it. If God has already determined the lives of humanity why exactly are we held accountable for our actions? Afterall God declared that they happen right? Well, yes that's correct. God DID declare that they happen.

The simplest way to answer this question is because they're OUR actions. Just because God has declared what we will do and nobody can overwrite God doesn't mean that we did not in fact do the actions. It also doesnt mean that God has no right to do with his creation whatever he wants to do with them. God also is a God who knows the entire lives of humanity and how they will react and what they will do. But God not only knows the actions of mankind, the Bible says that he predetermined them and that he also will judge the wicked based on what they have done.

So why are we held accountable for actions that God declared in the first place? Afterall it was God who made us all sinners right? Wrong. While God predestined the actions of Adam and Eve he did not actually make them do those actions. Adam and Eve brought sin into the world on their own accord and by their own "free" will. They after all, ate the forbidden fruit because they believed lucifer when he said that they will become God's if they ate it. That is how sin entered a "perfect" world. Not just because God predetermined it to happen.

It's like this and I can use myself as an example. I weigh over 400 pounds. I'm a glutton who enjoys eating unhealthy food. I eat unhealthy food because I want to and because it tastes good. God may have predetermined that I be morbidly obese but it is my own actions and "free" will that cause me to eat tasty and unhealthg food and thus sin and thus make myself slowly fatter. It's also been the will of God that I lose almost 40 pounds (I weigh 420 pounds now and weighed almost 455 at my heaviest). I did the actions of losing the weight despite God declaring " you will lose 40 pounds."


This may not be "fair" but this is how things are run. God to a lot of people is "unfair" but we see God at the moment as sinners. One day we will see God for what he truly is whether we spend eternity in heaven or hell. Not one word will be spoken on judgement day except from God because we will ALL see that God was right all along and that we deserve to be punished because we've sinned against a completek Holy and righteous God.


Paul really does answer this very question perfectly "who are we to talk back to God and tell God how to be?" It's about time we stop looking at God as unrighteous sinners and worship him for what he truly is, the God of the universe!

I have taught Romans 9 many times to adults and will spend hours on it. You have to keep it in context of not only Ro. 9-11, but also all of Romans and what Paul is teaching. We like to pull verses out to support a point, but do not address why that verse was written to that place at that time.

Vessels of mercy did not have to be specifically “named” when God decided to glorify them and shower them with gifts.

You really need to put every verse in Ro. 9 in the context of at least all of Ro. 9, ro. 9-11 and all of Romans.

Romans 9

Paul uses two teaching methods throughout Romans even secular philosophy classes will use Romans as the best example of these methods. Paul does an excellent job of building one premise on the previous premises to develop his final conclusions. Paul uses an ancient form of rhetoric known as diatribe (imaginary debate) asking questions and most of the time giving a strong “By no means” and then goes on to explain “why not”. Paul’s method goes beyond just a general diatribe and follows closely to the diatribes used in the individual laments in the Psalms and throughout the Old Testament, which the Jewish Christians would have known extensively. These “questions or comments” are given by an “imaginary” student making it more a dialog with the readers (students) and not just a “sermon”.

The main topic repeated extensively in Romans is the division in the Christian house churches in Rome between the Jews and Gentile Christians. You can just look up how many times Jews and gentiles are referred to see this as a huge issue.

The main question (a diatribe question) in Romans 9 Paul addresses is God being fair or just Rms. 9: 14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!

This will take some explaining, since just prior in Romans 9, Paul went over some history of God’s dealings with the Israelites that sounds very “unjust” like “loving Jacob and hating Esau” before they were born, but remember in all of Paul’s diatribes he begins before, just after or before and just after with strong support for the wrong answer (this makes it more of a debate and giving the opposition the first shot as done in all diatribes).

Some “Christians” do not seem to understand how Paul, uses diatribes and think, since he just showed God being “unjust” and saying God is “not unjust” that God has a special God definition of “just”, making God “just” by His standard and appearing totally unjust by human standards. God is not a hypocrite and does not redefine what He told us to be true.

Who in Rome would be having a “problem” with God choosing to work with Isaac and Jacob instead of Ishmael and Esau? Would the Jewish Christian have a problem with this or would it be the Gentile Christians?

Think further about this: The Jews (thinking the gentiles were dogs) would support their distant for the Gentiles by pointing out to them how God: loved Jacob, a Jew, and hated Esau, a gentile, plus Jacob and Ishmael, Moses and Pharoah and with other OT true stories. Those true stories would thus be formular to both Jewish and Gentile Christians, showing the Jews were special and the ZGentiles were just common.

If God treaded you as privileged and special would you have a problem or would you have a problem if you were treated seemingly as common, while others were treated with honor for no apparent reason?

This is the issue and Paul will explain over the rest of Romans 9-11.

Paul is specific with the issue Rms. 9: 19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”

The Jews were created in a special honorable position that would bring forth the Messiah and everyone else was common in comparison (the Gentiles).

How do we know Paul is specifically addressing the Jew/Gentile issue? Rms. 9: 30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.

Paul is showing from the position of being made “common” vessels by God the Gentiles had an advantage over the Israelites (vessels of honor) that had the Law, since the Law became a stumbling stone to them. They both needed faith to rely on God’s Love to forgive them.

Without going into the details of Romans 9-11 we conclude with this diatribe question: Romans 11: 11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!

The common vessels (gentiles) and the vessels of honor (Jews) are equal individually in what is really significant when it comes to salvation, so God is not being unjust or unfair with either group.

If there is still a question about who is being addressed in this section of Rms. 9-11, Paul tells us: Rms. 11: 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

Rm 9:22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

This verse is not saying all the “vessels” created for a “common purpose” were created for destruction (they were not made from the start by the Potter “clay pigeons”). Everything that leaves the potter’s shop is of great quality. Those vessels for destruction can come from either the common group or the honor group, but God is being patient with them that will eventually be destroyed. The vessels God does develop great wrath against, will be readied for destruction, but how did they become worthy of destruction, since they left the potter’s shop with his mark on them? Any vessel (honorable or common) that becomes damaged is not worthy of the potters signature and He would want it destroyed.

To understand this as Common vessels and special vessels look at the same idea using the same Greek words of Paul in 2 Tim 2: 20. There Paul even points out the common can become the honored vessel.

Just because Paul uses a Potter as being God in his analogy and Jerimiah 18 uses a Potter as being God in his analogy, does not mean the analogies are conveying the exact same analogy. Jerimiah is talking about clay on the potter’s wheel being change while still being malleable clay (which fits the changing of Israel), but Paul is talking about two finished pots (vessels) so they cannot both be Israel, the clay is the same for both and the clay is not changing the outcome of the pot. The two pots (vessels) are completed and a person is asking “Why did you make me like this”, so it is about “how a person is made (born)” and not a nation.

Since Jerimiah talks only about one pot on the wheel changing and Paul is talking about two kinds of completed pots (vessels), who are the two different pots?



Paul is saying in 2 Tim 2: 21 even after leaving the shop the common vessels can cleanse themselves and thus become instruments for a special purpose. So, who is the common vessel and who is the special vessel in this analogy?

That is a short explanation, since you really need to study all of Romans especially chapters 9, 10 and 11. Also please look at individual laments in the Psalms and diatribes in general, I really cut those short.

I would also bring in the parallel topic Paul used in Ro. 3 with the same questions:

In the beginning of Chapter 3:

“…what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us?”

“…why am I still condemned as a sinner?”

“Let us do evil that good may result”?

In Chapter 9

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust?

19…“Then why does God still blame us?

20…‘Why did you make me like this?”

Answer to chp. 3 is:9…For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin.

Answer to chp. 9 is:???

 

[RandyPNW]

I have taught Romans 9 many times to adults and will spend hours on it. You have to keep it in context of not only Ro. 9-11, but also all of Romans and what Paul is teaching. We like to pull verses out to support a point, but do not address why that verse was written to that place at that time.

I don't believe the broader context changes what Paul is essentially saying about Jacob and Esau. Though common may be saved, and the special may be lost, Paul appears to be saying in the specific example of Esau and Jacob that one will be saved, and one will be lost. Their disposition was anticipated from before birth!

It is not just picturing Esau as a Gentile who can be saved, and Jacob as one who under the Law properly has faith. More, it is suggesting that Jacob himself will use God's Law properly, by faith, and that Esau would not. The broader context of salvation for all, both Jew and Gentile, does not appear to apply.

We may indeed believe this is unfair of God, to anticipate what choice they will make, whether for or against faith in God. But as Paul suggested, God is true to His word, and will save those He has predetermined. Those who were born outside of this plan are the responsibility of man working together with Satan. They are called in the Bible "children of Satan."

Nothing suggests that "Children of God" and "Children of Satan" lack freedom to choose. God simply has anticipated the material from which they've been formed, whether by God's word in history or by man's decision to rebel against God's word. Either choice has consequences. People can choose to be more or less righteous. And they can choose to be more or less rebellious. All must choose.

 

[bling]

I don't believe the broader context changes what Paul is essentially saying about Jacob and Esau. Though common may be saved, and the special may be lost, Paul appears to be saying in the specific example of Esau and Jacob that one will be saved, and one will be lost. Their disposition was anticipated from before birth!

It is not just picturing Esau as a Gentile who can be saved, and Jacob as one who under the Law properly has faith. More, it is suggesting that Jacob himself will use God's Law properly, by faith, and that Esau would not. The broader context of salvation for all, both Jew and Gentile, does not appear to apply.

We may indeed believe this is unfair of God, to anticipate what choice they will make, whether for or against faith in God. But as Paul suggested, God is true to His word, and will save those He has predetermined. Those who were born outside of this plan are the responsibility of man working together with Satan. They are called in the Bible "children of Satan."

Nothing suggests that "Children of God" and "Children of Satan" lack freedom to choose. God simply has anticipated the material from which they've been formed, whether by God's word in history or by man's decision to rebel against God's word. Either choice has consequences. People can choose to be more or less righteous. And they can choose to be more or less rebellious. All must choose.

Thank you for your reply, I rarely have a discussion of the topic.

God “hated” the disposition of Esau he even had before birth and saw him as someone He could not work with, even though his father would love him over Jacob. I would have preferred Esau over Jacob also up until Jacob got away from his mother. I have seen children at the earliest of age with bad dispositions, but not as early as God could. The Bible does not say Esau was lost and hell bound, for he showed “Love” and forgiveness to his brother. The definition for “hate”, Deity uses would include “Loving” at the same time, since Jesus tells us to both Love and Hate our family at the same time.

I fear the early Gentile Christians would have thought they had been hated by God, when that was never true, as Jesus pointed out.

There is a law written on the hearts of all people, the Jewish “Law” saved no one.

You say: “…to anticipate what choice they will make”, but God does not have to “anticipate” our choices since they are absolutely known by God. The free will choices you will make tomorrow, are known historically by the God at the end of time and history cannot be changed. God is outside of time, so those choices are also known by God at the beginning of time, as pure unchangeable history.

 

[RandyPNW]

Thank you for your reply, I rarely have a discussion of the topic.

God “hated” the disposition of Esau he even had before birth and saw him as someone He could not work with, even though his father would love him over Jacob. I would have preferred Esau over Jacob also up until Jacob got away from his mother. I have seen children at the earliest of age with bad dispositions, but not as early as God could. The Bible does not say Esau was lost and hell bound, for he showed “Love” and forgiveness to his brother. The definition for “hate”, Deity uses would include “Loving” at the same time, since Jesus tells us to both Love and Hate our family at the same time.

I fear the early Gentile Christians would have thought they had been hated by God, when that was never true, as Jesus pointed out.

There is a law written on the hearts of all people, the Jewish “Law” saved no one.

You say: “…to anticipate what choice they will make”, but God does not have to “anticipate” our choices since they are absolutely known by God. The free will choices you will make tomorrow, are known historically by the God at the end of time and history cannot be changed. God is outside of time, so those choices are also known by God at the beginning of time, as pure unchangeable history.

I'm happy you like to discuss without having to agree. I learn that way. I respect your position. However, I see choices as truly free, and not pre-determined by God--not even foreknown by God.

One might then protest that an all-encompassing God should not be surprised by anything, since He created everything? That would be true. However, I think God made options for people so that He would never be surprised regardless of the choices they may make. Being truly free, God would *not* know what choices people will make. However, He has reserve plans for any choices that may be made.

On the other hand, I think certain things are pre-ordained, whether they depend on people proving to be faithful or not. God may promise a faithful saint certain things. Once God has promised him something they are sealed in cement--they cannot be altered by human choices to the contrary.

Again, with respect to Esau and Jacob, I think Esau was not born by the will and word of God. And so Esau, by nature, rejected God's word as undesirable. God's word certainly had a role in shaping the creation of Esau, but it was only a matter of following through with His promise to enable people to choose to go their own way, and have children that please them.

 

[bling]

I'm happy you like to discuss without having to agree. I learn that way. I respect your position. However, I see choices as truly free, and not pre-determined by God--not even foreknown by God.

One might then protest that an all-encompassing God should not be surprised by anything, since He created everything? That would be true. However, I think God made options for people so that He would never be surprised regardless of the choices they may make. Being truly free, God would *not* know what choices people will make. However, He has reserve plans for any choices that may be made.

On the other hand, I think certain things are pre-ordained, whether they depend on people proving to be faithful or not. God may promise a faithful saint certain things. Once God has promised him something they are sealed in cement--they cannot be altered by human choices to the contrary.

Again, with respect to Esau and Jacob, I think Esau was not born by the will and word of God. And so Esau, by nature, rejected God's word as undesirable. God's word certainly had a role in shaping the creation of Esau, but it was only a matter of following through with His promise to enable people to choose to go their own way, and have children that please them.

I do not think you understand my position or understanding and blame myself for my brief explanation.
Lots of things are predestined by God since that is what He will do and sometimes when He will do it.

If God’s omnipresence includes not only man’s present time, but also man’s past and man’s future time, then God is outside of time.

God expressing himself anthropomorphically to humans, since God would use our understanding of time in communicating with us. We know the results of God’s miracles but not how the miracle was done. God would not have to talk about the relativity of time or his existence outside of our time and would keep it simple and with excellent communication, talk about time from a human perspective. Time in heaven might also have their own time separate from man’s time.

If you know today historically a free will choice, I made yesterday, that choice cannot be changed, since history cannot be changed even by God (it happened). The fact you historically know a free will choice does not mean it was not a free will choice.

If God is outside of human time then God at the end of time knows perfectly historically (history cannot be changed) every autonomous free will choice man and/or satan made at any and all times. God at the end of time would be able to send that information to Himself at the beginning of time before there was a known universe.

If God at the end of time knows what Adam and Eve did in the Garden, He can provide that to Himself before Adam and Eve were created, so God knows exactly what Adam and Eve are “going to do”, since they have “already done it” (God is in both places at the same “human” time).

It is difficult to think about what it is like to be outside of time and existing throughout time.

My theory would have this:

• God perfectly knows all human future from some beginning point or before time began.
• God knows all possible scenarios for the future that would result from His actions and man’s autonomous free will choices.
• God has predestined in detail most of what man will experience, but this predestined set up scenario by God is to assure every mature adult has a truly independent autonomous free will choice to accept or reject His pure charity as charity, which is the individual’s choice.
• God predestining the scenarios of man to make this free will choice would be limited to the point an individual could still chose to accept and not harden his/her heart to the point there is nothing more God could do to help that individual.
• God knows perfectly from the beginning of time what choice every mature adult or spiritual being made throughout history from God’s presence throughout time, but God did not make the choice for the person or spiritual being.
• God predestined “before” anything was decided to be made that those humans who accepted His charity He would save.

Issues:

• There is no scripture suggesting: God choice of a person’s life scenarios is the determining factor in who is saved and lost.
• There is nothing that proves God exists today in the future, past and present (that God is not limited by time).
• The idea of God setting up very specific scenarios so each mature adult will only choose one predetermined choice to accept or reject God’s charity, means the choice is not a free will choice made by the individual, but only gives the appearance of being a free will choice since due to the scenario God setup the person cannot chose to do something other than what God has set him up to choose. The deciding factor on the choice is God’s chosen scenario and not man’s free will choice, so that is not a free will choice .
• God setting up scenarios for each mature adult to accept or reject His charity in the form of forgiveness, allows the person to truly have a Godly type Love since we are taught by Christ: “… he that is forgiven much Loves much…” So being forgiven (which includes accepting that forgiveness) of an unbelievable huge debt will automatically result in an unbelievable huge Love. The person has to make a truly free will choice to humbly accept God’s forgiveness and that will allow the Love to be truly his Love which will result in him Loving God.
• With other theories, God chose not to set it up for all humans to choose to accept His charity and be saved, so those lost would be God’s fault. This is not like God and Christ at all.
• While under my theory; God is doing (setting it up) to provide the very best opportunity for each lost mature adult to be saved if they are willing. The person who rejects God’s charity is not wanting Godly type love and does not like Godly type Love, so they would be unhappy in heaven where there is only Godly type Love. God wants them to go to heaven, but not if it will make them unhappy, so He allows them to choose, but it is not in the form of choosing between heaven and hell, but between His Love (charity) or not His Love (Not charity).