Poll: Does the Theory of Evolution have practical applications?

Does the Theory of Evolution have practical applications?

  • I'm an evolutionist: NO, the Theory of Evolution does NOT have practical applications.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I'm a creationist: I am unsure if the Theory of Evolution has practical applications.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I'm an evolutionist: I am unsure if the Theory of Evolution has practical applications.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

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Alan Kleinman

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Go ahead and demonstrate.
Are you a biologist or have you studied any biology? So far, all you have done is claimed that the ToE is true but you won't use it to explain the simplest evolutionary experiments. If you want to understand evolutionary processes, you need to use the laws of physics and the correct mathematical principles will become apparent.
 
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Estrid

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Does that mean that you can predict when they will occur on any particular replication?

Of course not.

Tell ya what. If you figure it is entirely random and unpredictable,
put your money on KAT6A syndrome and I will do 11P.

Start spinning the wheel and we will see who walks out
with the money.
 
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Alan Kleinman

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False conclusion. I understand just fine
what he said.
If you have something to say about physics,
as applied to competition and natural selection,
go ahead.
If you understand what Darwin was talking about, tell us what law of physics applies to competition and what law of physics applies to adaptation. Then use these laws to describe the Kishony Mega-Plate experiment and the Lenski long-term evolution experiment. If you can't do this yourself, point us to papers that show how to do this physics and math for these evolutionary experiments.
 
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Estrid

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Are you a biologist or have you studied any biology? So far, all you have done is claimed that the ToE is true but you won't use it to explain the simplest evolutionary experiments. If you want to understand evolutionary processes, you need to use the laws of physics and the correct mathematical principles will become apparent.

Now I will say for the 6th time that I dont see how ToE
has any relevance to that experiment.
I've never said ToE is "true".

If you are going to explain how physics applies,
go ahead.
 
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Alan Kleinman

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Of course not.

Tell ya what. If you figure it is entirely random and unpredictable,
put your money on KAT6A syndrome and I will do 11P.

Start spinning the wheel and we will see who walks out
with the money.
That's why mutations are random, you can't predict if they will occur on any particular replication, you can only measure the frequency at which they occur. And that frequency is a probability.

It is not smart to gamble when the odds are against you. You don't comprehend how bad the odds are for the ToE. If you did, you would understand how to do the mathematics of the Kishony Mega-Plate experiment and the Lenski long-term evolutionary experiment.
 
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Estrid

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That's why mutations are random, you can't predict if they will occur on any particular replication, you can only measure the frequency at which they occur. And that frequency is a probability.

It is not smart to gamble when the odds are against you. You don't comprehend how bad the odds are for the ToE. If you did, you would understand how to do the mathematics of the Kishony Mega-Plate experiment and the Lenski long-term evolutionary experiment.

Now we are kind of learning what you mean by random.
If you think all mutations are equally random,
well, go ahead.

Enough of you finding deficiencies in me.

Tell how you use physics to disprove ToE,
or whatever exactly it is you propose, instead
of asking me about it.

In crude no insinuation terms its called
put up or shut up.
 
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Alan Kleinman

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Now I will say for the 6th time that I dont see how ToE
has any relevance to that experiment.
I've never said ToE is "true".

If you are going to explain how physics applies,
go ahead.
So you don't think that the Kishony Mega-Plate experiment and the Lenski long-term evolutionary experiments are examples of evolutionary processes? The selection pressure in the Kishony experiment is an antibiotic and the selection pressure in the Lenski experiment is starvation. Mutations are occurring in both experiments and you have variants adapting in each of these examples with improved fitness to these selection conditions. Have you ever studied either of these experiments?
 
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Estrid

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So you don't think that the Kishony Mega-Plate experiment and the Lenski long-term evolutionary experiments are examples of evolutionary processes? The selection pressure in the Kishony experiment is an antibiotic and the selection pressure in the Lenski experiment is starvation. Mutations are occurring in both experiments and you have variants adapting in each of these examples with improved fitness to these selection conditions. Have you ever studied either of these experiments?

As before. If you think you can show ToE
is wrong, go ahead.
 
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Alan Kleinman

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Now we are kind of learning what you mean by random.
If you think all mutations are equally random,
well, go ahead.

Enough of you finding deficiencies in me.

Tell how you use physics to disprove ToE,
or whatever exactly it is you propose, instead
of asking me about it.

In crude no insinuation terms its called
put up or shut up.
What do mean by equally random? What I think is that different mutations can occur at different frequencies. For example, transversion mutations can occur at different frequencies as transition mutations. And when HIV replicates, its replicase system does not have error checking proteins so that replicator has a much higher mutation rate than a replicator that does have the error checking proteins. It is not difficult to take these factors into account if you understand the math and the physics of evolutionary adaptation. The mutation rate is a minor factor in evolutionary processes. It's the joint probability of beneficial mutations occurring which dominates evolutionary adaptation.
 
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Estrid

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The reason why the ToE is wrong is the multiplication rule of probabilities.

As a rule, a law or theory is disproved by
demonstrating an exception.
But if you think you've got it nailed, you have
not explained much with said law.

The rule you refer to isn't physics, but it is sound
basic math. Do you have some physics?

What is missing in use of math is the actual
probability of each possible mutation,and, which
mutations are dependant or independent.
 
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Ophiolite

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There are many good definitions available on the internet, here's the definition(s) given by Merriam-Webster:
Merriam-Webster definition of random
But let's use a simple example to demonstrate the concept of a random trial (also called a random experiment). Tossing a coin gives two possible outcomes (three if you want to include the possibility of landing on an edge). When you toss that coin, you can get either a head or a tail but you cannot predict which will occur on any given toss. In a similar manner, the random trial for a mutation is replication. You cannot predict whether a mutation will or will not occur at any particular site for any replication.
Then I stand by what I said earlier. The consensus view appears to be that mutations are random; there are some researchers who argue for non-random aspects in some instances.

Note: to be clear. I am aware of many of the definitions of random. My intent was to learn your definition. Thank you for providing it.
 
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Alan Kleinman

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As a rule, a law or theory is disproved by
demonstrating an exception.
But if you think you've got it nailed-
Terrif. Write it up and get your Nobel.
It is already written, peer-reviewed, and published. Actually, Edward Tatum already explained it in his 1958 Nobel Laureate lecture. If you want to understand how to do the math, you can find it here:
The basic science and mathematics of random mutation and natural selection
That mathematical model uses the "at least one" rule from probability theory. Another way of doing the math can be found here:
The Kishony Mega-Plate Experiment, a Markov Process
That paper is presently under peer-review.

If you want to read what Edward Tatum said about this subject in his Nobel Laureate Lecture, you can find that here:
Edward Tatum, 1958 Nobel Laureate Lecture
If you don't want to read the entire lecture, start where he writes "In microbiology the roles of mutation and selection in evolution..."

The reason why the ToE is not true is the multiplication rule of probabilities. If you take the time and effort to learn about the physics and mathematics of evolution, you will understand why this claim is true.
 
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Estrid

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It is already written, peer-reviewed, and published. Actually, Edward Tatum already explained it in his 1958 Nobel Laureate lecture. If you want to understand how to do the math, you can find it here:
The basic science and mathematics of random mutation and natural selection
That mathematical model uses the "at least one" rule from probability theory. Another way of doing the math can be found here:
The Kishony Mega-Plate Experiment, a Markov Process
That paper is presently under peer-review.

If you want to read what Edward Tatum said about this subject in his Nobel Laureate Lecture, you can find that here:
Edward Tatum, 1958 Nobel Laureate Lecture
If you don't want to read the entire lecture, start where he writes "In microbiology the roles of mutation and selection in evolution..."

The reason why the ToE is not true is the multiplication rule of probabilities. If you take the time and effort to learn about the physics and mathematics of evolution, you will understand why this claim is true.

I did elementary probability and stats in college.

You've demonstrated no particular knowledge, just made
assertions and provided a couple ofvxemi relevant links.

Still no physics.

But perhaps you can at least explain why nobody
got a Nobel for disproving the ToE.
 
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Alan Kleinman

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Then I stand by what I said earlier. The consensus view appears to be that mutations are random; there are some researchers who argue for non-random aspects in some instances.

Note: to be clear. I am aware of many of the definitions of random. My intent was to learn your definition. Thank you for providing it.
Those researchers that argue that mutations are not random are going to have a difficult time explaining evolutionary experiments such as the Kishony and Lenski experiments with their theories. These are real, measurable, and repeatable examples of evolutionary adaptation. I've used Scientific Method to verify my physical and mathematical models and not only do the results correlate with the empirical data, they predict the behavior of these evolutionary experiments.
 
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Alan Kleinman

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I did elementary probability and stats in college.

You've demonstrated no particular knowledge, just made
assertions and provided a couple ofvxemi relevant links.

Still no physics.

But perhaps you can at least explain why nobody
got a Nobel for disproving the ToE.
Clearly, you haven't taken the time to read the links I've provided because if you had, you would understand how the multiplication rule of probabilities applies to biological evolution. If you got anything out of your course in introductory probability theory, the paper The basic science and mathematics of random mutation and natural selection is an example of an elementary probability problem. Perhaps you want to try to prove that math wrong. I did the math and published that paper before Kishony performed his experiment and that math predicted the behavior of his experiment before it was performed.

Since you won't put any effort into trying to understand evolutionary processes, you need to be spoon-fed. The physics which applies to evolutionary processes are the 1st law of thermodynamics to competition and the 2nd law of thermodynamics applies to adaptation. The Lenski experiment demonstrates the principle of competition for the limited energy source (glucose) forcing his bacteria to compete for that limited resource. The most effective user of the limited source of energy becomes fixed in the population until a mutation occurs giving a more fit variant which then drives the previous variant to extinction.

I think there is a multitude of reasons why people won't let go of the ToE. I've already pointed out 3, bias, ignorance, and confusion. Another is money.
 
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Estrid

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Clearly, you haven't taken the time to read the links I've provided because if you had, you would understand how the multiplication rule of probabilities applies to biological evolution. If you got anything out of your course in introductory probability theory, the paper The basic science and mathematics of random mutation and natural selection is an example of an elementary probability problem. Perhaps you want to try to prove that math wrong. I did the math and published that paper before Kishony performed his experiment and that math predicted the behavior of his experiment before it was performed.

Since you won't put any effort into trying to understand evolutionary processes, you need to be spoon-fed. The physics which applies to evolutionary processes are the 1st law of thermodynamics to competition and the 2nd law of thermodynamics applies to adaptation. The Lenski experiment demonstrates the principle of competition for the limited energy source (glucose) forcing his bacteria to compete for that limited resource. The most effective user of the limited source of energy becomes fixed in the population until a mutation occurs giving a more fit variant which then drives the previous variant to extinction.

I think there is a multitude of reasons why people won't let go of the ToE. I've already pointed out 3, bias, ignorance, and confusion. Another is money.
Clearly, you haven't taken the time to read the links I've provided because if you had, you would understand how the multiplication rule of probabilities applies to biological evolution. If you got anything out of your course in introductory probability theory, the paper The basic science and mathematics of random mutation and natural selection is an example of an elementary probability problem. Perhaps you want to try to prove that math wrong. I did the math and published that paper before Kishony performed his experiment and that math predicted the behavior of his experiment before it was performed.

Since you won't put any effort into trying to understand evolutionary processes, you need to be spoon-fed. The physics which applies to evolutionary processes are the 1st law of thermodynamics to competition and the 2nd law of thermodynamics applies to adaptation. The Lenski experiment demonstrates the principle of competition for the limited energy source (glucose) forcing his bacteria to compete for that limited resource. The most effective user of the limited source of energy becomes fixed in the population until a mutation occurs giving a more fit variant which then drives the previous variant to extinction.

I think there is a multitude of reasons why people won't let go of the ToE. I've already pointed out 3, bias, ignorance, and confusion. Another is money.

As I said, if you understood what you are going on about,
you could explain it. You can't.
Blaming me doesn't cut it.

Physics..
That 2LOT thing is what I guessed you would
bring up. Its a moldy old pratt if ever there was.
The earth is not a closed system. Concentrating energy
is as simple as recharging your car battery.

Claiming as you now have clearly done that
the world scientific community is dishonest
and incomprtent as a reason your theory gets no traction
( blame blame blame) is, frankly, ludicrous.
 
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Ophiolite

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Those researchers that argue that mutations are not random are going to have a difficult time explaining evolutionary experiments such as the Kishony and Lenski experiments with their theories.
Clearly I have done, as I suggested I probably would, an incomeptent job of communicating on this topic. The researchers I referenced, and that you are presumably referring to here, did not argue that mutations are not random. They claimed that they identified non-random aspects of mutations in a specific organism. I apologise for inadvertenly trapping you into making an egregious equivocation.
I've used Scientific Method to verify my physical and mathematical models and not only do the results correlate with the empirical data, they predict the behavior of these evolutionary experiments.
An easy assertion to make. When will we have an opportunity of viewing these results?

Side Note: I think probably all members participating in this thread are well aware of the scientific method and do not require links to explain the concept. You run the risk of being thought patronising by that approach.
 
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Speedwell

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I think there is a multitude of reasons why people won't let go of the ToE. I've already pointed out 3, bias, ignorance, and confusion. Another is money.
You forgot the most important reason: lack of a plausible alternative theory.
 
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