Why is this ok when God does it but bad when we(humans) do this?

Olivet said:

I feel like I'm at a cross-roads in my faith. I'll always believe in God but I have zero faith that He cares except for those he favors. Anyway, my question(rhetorical one) is this, why is it wrong to bash parents that have kids but fail to care for them?

Immediately people say," They didn't ask to come here, when you have kids you need to provide the best life possible for them." All of this I agree with. I know the answer to this question but with God there's so many of us that didn't ask to be here but people reply with the opposite saying, " God owes you nothing, be grateful and what not"

If I said that to my kid I would be considered toxic. I just think like Why is it ok for God to create millions of people, some that have horrendous lives, Lonely lives, struggle with mental illness and He just watches them struggle?

This along with the verse He has mercy on whomever he wills makes me want to give up on God honestly.

The only way I can make this okay in my head and heart is to cancel out his power. I'd understand if He just couldn't help and was doing the best He could BUT the fact He can and choose not to disturbs me alot.

Idk I need some answers because I just don't see God the same.

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Just off the title, my first thought was, "If God does it, it isn't just ok --it's GOOD for God to do it!" Lots of other related thoughts then crowded in, all having to do with the huge difference between Creator and created moral agents. Now to read the post.

This paragraph of yours demonstrates the heart of the common debate, I think: "The only way I can make this okay in my head and heart is to cancel out his power. I'd understand if He just couldn't help and was doing the best He could BUT the fact He can and choose not to disturbs me alot." 'Canceling' out his power is exactly what Christians do when they try to excuse God for what he obviously does, by calling on 'Freewill' to rule the day. Good for you for seeing past this. Even if God was determined to bow to our free will, the fact remains that he then saw it would be that way, but created this world to be as we see it anyway!

You want an answer that puts you in a safe place? Be assured that the "judge of all the earth" will do what is right. It is not even a question of whether you are one of those to whom he chose to show mercy! It is a matter of him accomplishing all he set out to do, FOR HIS OWN SAKE. (Even for believers, those whose hearts fail them, and are driven mad with despair, what he does, he does to accomplish what he set out to do. Their temporal agony is said to be like when a woman is in labor, and after the child is born forgets the pain for the joy that they now have. When we see the God that made us, and orchestrated ALL things, we will be full of joy, more than we could manage were we not at that time finally one with him, or we will be full of regret for our foolish thinking.)

God would have no reason to create if he was unjust. You want an answer that puts you in a safe place? Take pleasure in the fact that HE is fully satisfied with his plan and indeed will bring it to fruition. This life is about HIM. Pour all your fear, agony, frustration and confusion into getting to know him. Read his Word, like you had nothing better to do.

He created for the purpose of showing his justice, power, wisdom and love to those who pursue him. to those who love him, for the sake of his own glory. At this point, my fear (which at one time was immense) of not making the grade, has been replaced with, not the promise of a better life in Heaven, but the joy of the thought of finally seeing him as he is, and KNOWING his satisfaction with what he has done.

Olivet said:

True but he gives everyone a different measure of grace and that can be seen in people's lives. One person may have a good upbringing, friends, married and still have God. The other abused, lonely, struggling. Why the difference? why would God give one person more blessings and favor than the other. Yes God died for all but the first person I mention has that and a bit more. (Both people are real life examples)

Also, that scripture I mentioned wasn't explained (He has mercy on whom ever he wills) Is that why some people have bad lives and others good lives?

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The mercy he gives to whom he wills has more to do with whom he chooses for the end result of his plan. That aside, though,

--you ask, "Why the difference"? Because each member of the Bride of Christ (think of cells in a body, perhaps), is different from all the others, and is built to perform the function for which it is designed. Try to believe it when you hear, concerning the fact that he is just, that those who have it bad here, that belong to him, will not simply be rewarded, but will BE that particular member for which he did that to them.

To me, I find that fact, drawn from Scripture, immensely satisfying. And that, not because I am on the right side of the question, but because God is worthy of all praise. I once read a sci-fi novel about someone who attains a certain status separate from his body, where he is able to discern God, and is as a result overwhelmed with awe at God's power and grandeur. (The book was otherwise ridiculous about the kind of being God is --a mere child, though eons old, in the process of learning, etc etc --but that part of it, the praise of God for who he is, stuck with me. I think it would do anybody good to consider the huge difference between ourselves and our Creator.

Olivet said:

If He's leaving us to our own devices why does God talk about being a comforter and promises? Also back to my question, to my knowledge none of us asked to be here so why Is God elusive for some during their time of need ?

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Anything truly good we do is done by the Spirit of God in us. When you obey, thank God for that.

As for your other question, take pleasure in the fact that this life is not for this life. That may not feel satisfying in the moment of despair, but set him always before you (Psalm 16:8). REMEMBER who he is.

Spend your time with him --I look forward to seeing you there.

Olivet said:

I just think like Why is it ok for God to create millions of people, some that have horrendous lives, Lonely lives, struggle with mental illness and He just watches them struggle?

Idk I need some answers because I just don't see God the same.

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If you're mad at God, then be mad at God. Let him know it. That's the best way to work this out rather than trying to bury it or explain it away. IMHO some of the best sections of the Bible are when people struggled with God: Abraham at Sodom, Jacob wrestling with the angel ... Jesus in Gethsemane. Seeing people in the Bible be real people is the best way for we real people to learn how to relate to God.

J_B_ said:

If you're mad at God, then be mad at God. Let him know it. That's the best way to work this out rather than trying to bury it or explain it away. IMHO some of the best sections of the Bible are when people struggled with God: Abraham at Sodom, Jacob wrestling with the angel ... Jesus in Gethsemane. Seeing people in the Bible be real people is the best way for we real people to learn how to relate to God.

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God loves honesty. Anything else is trying to get around who he is. We are unable to make ourselves presentable to God, apart from Christ in us.

This story, etc, and why this all is, etc, is also about God His Holy Spirit, or God the Spirit, or the Spirit form of God, and His Christ as well, etc, (God in the form of any kind of manifested physical flesh, etc), but unfortunately I'm not allowed to get into that too much on here though...

But it's bigger than just us, and just us only, it involves God the Spirit, and God the Son, and also all the angels, holy or unholy, or those destined to be or become holy, under their commands, etc...

God Bless!

Olivet said:

I feel like I'm at a cross-roads in my faith. I'll always believe in God but I have zero faith that He cares except for those he favors. Anyway, my question(rhetorical one) is this, why is it wrong to bash parents that have kids but fail to care for them?

Immediately people say," They didn't ask to come here, when you have kids you need to provide the best life possible for them." All of this I agree with. I know the answer to this question but with God there's so many of us that didn't ask to be here but people reply with the opposite saying, " God owes you nothing, be grateful and what not"

If I said that to my kid I would be considered toxic. I just think like Why is it ok for God to create millions of people, some that have horrendous lives, Lonely lives, struggle with mental illness and He just watches them struggle?

This along with the verse He has mercy on whomever he wills makes me want to give up on God honestly.

The only way I can make this okay in my head and heart is to cancel out his power. I'd understand if He just couldn't help and was doing the best He could BUT the fact He can and choose not to disturbs me alot.

Idk I need some answers because I just don't see God the same.

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This is the problem when you give someone free will. People get to choose how they behave. Also, man gave control of his future to Satan. God is far from helpless, but not so many would like His remedy for man's ills.

God does not "just watch people struggle". He has provided the perfect solution to all the problems of the human race. People have the choice to accept or reject. The solution is to accept God's loving sacrifice of His only Son, so that He might gain many sons. God did not reject us, we rejected Him. Be glad I'm not God. I'd have left humanity to sort it out on their own. I for one am glad that He did not.

In case you think I'm being theoretical, right now things are very difficult for me. My closest friend in in hospital, seriously ill. She's pulling out of it a little, no longer on a respirator. It's been a week and they still don't know the cause. To add to the mix, I am not able to visit her because some clown messed up and the COVID virus has escaped again. Yet I have learned to trust God even when nothing make sense and nothing is going the way that I want it to.

I have to be positive. She is in ICU but her life is no longer under threat. She had me worried for a few days as her kidneys were failing. God is merciful and gracious and has spared her life.

Olivet said:

I feel like I'm at a cross-roads in my faith. I'll always believe in God but I have zero faith that He cares except for those he favors.

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Do you imagine then that those God favors.. they never have any problems in their lives?

Wow. What different Bible are you reading?.. Or what different world are you living on?

Favor from God doesn't happen on it's own. The favor from God always came because a person trusted and believed in God's favor to be working in their life.
To everyone who trusted in God.. they met with trials and tribulations. But it's those who persevere in trusting God whom God gives strength to overcome the trials. Even Jesus was tempted of the devil. No one is exempt from testings and the like.

An example is when the disciples didn't trust when they were in a boat going across the water. A storm arose and they woke Jesus from his sleep to ask "Don't you care that we perish?"
After the wind and waves had calmed down Jesus asked them "Where is your faith?" Why didn't you trust God?

No one gets favor when they don't trust God for it. No one overcomes trials when they don't trust God to get them through it.

Anyway, my question(rhetorical one) is this, why is it wrong to bash parents that have kids but fail to care for them?
Immediately people say," They didn't ask to come here, when you have kids you need to provide the best life possible for them." All of this I agree with. I know the answer to this question but with God there's so many of us that didn't ask to be here.

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And yet God has the plan of redemption for every person born into the world. Because he so loves everyone that he sent his own beloved Son to take our place and bear the punishment for our sins. So that we could be free from sins and be his much loved child. Whom he has blessed with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in his Son Christ Jesus.

Since he did that, why would he not also through his Son freely give us all things that we need?

I just think like Why is it ok for God to create millions of people,

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God didn't have anything to do with them personally. All are born in sin. They live their lives without knowing God, without trusting God. Many don't want to know or trust in God. And to those Jesus says "Depart from me I never knew you."

But to those who come to him and believe in him, he will in no wise cast out.. but to them are given the power to become the children of God. It's only those who are born again that are God's children.

some that have horrendous lives, Lonely lives, struggle with mental illness

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Everybody has problems in their lives. Jesus said "In this world you will have tribulation- tests, trials, temptations, adversities, opposition, troubles, problems. Just read all of the curses listed in Deuteronomy.

and He just watches them struggle?

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And Jesus said "These things I speak to you that you may have peace. And be of good cheer for I have overcome the world and deprived it of power to harm you." There's the thing to rejoice about, that Jesus has already overcome whatever form of trouble that confronts you. The thing to do is believe it. And that's why the apostle John says that our faith is the victory.

So nothing favorable will happen if you don't have faith in God. Because he does not barge into the situation without an invite.
That is the difference between he and the devil. In the garden of Eden the devil just walked right in uninvited and began to weave his lies. Jesus said of him that he is a thief who comes for nothing else but to steal, kill and destroy. And contrasted to that Jesus said that he came that those who believe in him may have life and that more abundantly.

The idea that there are some people who get favor and some who don't. Is misleading. For the Bible also says that God is good to all who call upon him. They wouldn't call upon him unless they hear of him who will help those who trust in him.

God had long ago given to mankind the freewill to choose. He stated "I call heaven and earth to record against you that I have set before you to choose death or choose life, choose cursing or choose blessing. Therefore choose life that you and your offspring may live."

This along with the verse He has mercy on whomever he wills makes me want to give up on God honestly.

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You need to read the context to realize that those who receive God's mercy are those who are his children through Jesus Christ.. versus those who harden their hearts against his love for them.

Look at Esau and Jacob. Nowhere in that incident does it say that God was the one who chose one brother to give his mercy to over the other.

Esau was oldest so he had the first born privileges or favors. But Esau didn't appreciate the blessing. But his fraternal twin younger brother desired the blessing. So Jacob got the blessing. In that case it can be explained that God gave his mercy to Jacob who wanted it while Esau didn't. I'm convinced that God didn't care which had it.. just that one of them wanted it.

The only way I can make this okay in my head and heart is to cancel out his power.

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Well to hear you talk God already doesn't use his power to favor you. So why do you bother to make it official? When you could instead be like Jacob and let God know that you officially want his favor? Or.. I should say.. why not receive the favor that God has already given you?

Jesus is the first born so he got all that the Father has. And all who believe and trust in Jesus.. get all of what he has too.

I'd understand if He just couldn't help and was doing the best He could BUT the fact He can and choose not to disturbs me alot.

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God already did the best He could by making everything good available to us through his Son. But if you don't think that you're included then you won't get it because how can God give it to you if you don't receive it?

Just like the devil poisoned Adam and Eve's thinking about God.. telling them the lie that God doesn't want them to have something.. you have believed basically the same lie that God doesn't want you to have his favor.

Are you going to be like Esau or like Jacob? Whoever got the blessing was up to each of them.

Idk I need some answers because I just don't see God the same.

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You need to see that whom God gives mercy to is to those who believe and trust in him. As it is written "Come boldly to the throne of grace that you may find mercy and grace to help in time of need." And "those who come to God must believe.. that he is the rewarder of those who diligently seek him."

Olivet said:

True but he gives everyone a different measure of grace and that can be seen in people's lives. One person may have a good upbringing, friends, married and still have God. The other abused, lonely, struggling. Why the difference? why would God give one person more blessings and favor than the other. Yes God died for all but the first person I mention has that and a bit more. (Both people are real life examples)

Also, that scripture I mentioned wasn't explained (He has mercy on whom ever he wills) Is that why some people have bad lives and others good lives?

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When Romans 9 quotes God the potter, having mercy on whom He wills, that’s talking about God’s mercy in not punishing sin - and when you read Jeremiah 18, the potter and clay chapter, you find Gods criteria for mercy is repentance - when there is repentance God grants mercy from punishing them for sin.

Thus His mercy is not arbitrary and is for anyone and everyone who repents.

It’s not talking about giving some blessings but not others.

Everyone wants to know where to point the fingers if we don't have free will...?

God the Father created Satan the Devil specifically to do specifically all of what He did to God the Holy Spirit (YHWH) in the OT, and even in and with beginning from the very beginning, from as early on as creation, and right almost immediately afterward in the Garden, etc, and then, in and throughout the OT, etc, and He also created or had Jesus in mind to come along at some point and "fix it all" also, and/or restore it all also, cause that one, was from the beginning also, etc...

Now, you decide for yourselves just where to place the blame, who's sin it truly was, etc, who truly took care of it, etc, cause personally I don't care even if it does actually go all the back to and/or with God the Father, the supposed "blame", etc, cause all He is ever guilty of is only giving everyone existence, and/or making and/or creating life, etc...

Jesus paid for any and all of it anyway, etc, regardless of who is the true source, or whomever is truly to blame, etc... Because I fully believe that whomever it was, or is, or ever will be, or will become, or will turn out to be, I 100% fully believe Jesus Christ, the Messiah and only begotten One of God, really did 100% truly and fully "fix it", etc, and much of my faith in Him, or that One, is based on that, etc...

Would you rather not exist, etc...? Completely miss out on what He has in store for you in the afterlife, etc...? It will make all of this pale in comparison, etc...

So much so, that the very exquisite awe and extreme glory and beauty of all of it, will, in the very instant, make you 100% completely forget about all of anything that ever was, or even ever happened ever before it, etc, cause that's just how extremely beautiful it will be, etc... It will be that way so much so, that even these just only mere words, that I am just now using here just now, etc, cannot ever even begin to truly compare, or even ever come even remotely close to doing any of it any kind of real ever at all, "true justice", etc... And it will be "eternal" and everlasting from that point on also, etc... And that's a very, very long time, etc...

Free will or not/no free will is just a technicality, a perspective or point of view only, etc...

The only people (or beings) who "truly have the truest free will", etc, is only that or those that "don't know", etc, because it is just that, that makes them have it, etc, otherwise, you or me or we, really don't, etc...

God Bless!

Neogaia777 said:

Everyone wants to know where to point the fingers if we don't have free will...?

God the Father created Satan the Devil specifically to do specifically all of what He did to God the Holy Spirit (YHWH) in the OT, and even in and with beginning from the very beginning, from as early on as creation, and right almost immediately afterward in the Garden, etc, and then, in and throughout the OT, etc, and He also created or had Jesus in mind to come along at some point and "fix it all" also, and/or restore it all also, cause that one, was from the beginning also, etc...

Now, you decide for yourselves just where to place the blame, who's sin it truly was, etc, who truly took care of it, etc, cause personally I don't care even if it does actually go all the back to and/or with God the Father, the supposed "blame", etc, cause all He is ever guilty of is only giving everyone existence, and/or making and/or creating life, etc...

Jesus paid for any and all of it anyway, etc, regardless of who is the true source, or whomever is truly to blame, etc... Because I fully believe that whomever it was, or is, or ever will be, or will become, or will turn out to be, I 100% fully believe Jesus Christ, the Messiah and only begotten One of God, really did 100% truly and fully "fix it", etc, and much of my faith in Him, or that One, is based on that, etc...

Would you rather not exist, etc...? Completely miss out on what He has in store for you in the afterlife, etc...? It will make all of this pale in comparison, etc...

So much so, that the very exquisite awe and extreme glory and beauty of all of it, will, in the very instant, make you 100% completely forget about all of anything that ever was, or even ever happened ever before it, etc, cause that's just how extremely beautiful it will be, etc... It will be that way so much so, that even these just only mere words, that I am just now using here just now, etc, cannot ever even begin to truly compare, or even ever come even remotely close to doing any of it any kind of real ever at all, "true justice", etc... And it will be "eternal" and everlasting from that point on also, etc... And that's a very, very long time, etc...

Free will or not/no free will is just a technicality, a perspective or point of view only, etc...

The only people (or beings) who "truly have the truest free will", etc, is only that or those that "don't know", etc, because it is just that, that makes them have it, etc, otherwise, you or me or we, really don't, etc...

God Bless!

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God the Spirit got locked into a cause and effect cycle that would seem to be the beginning of a downward spiral that would never end, etc, that is, not until Jesus came along and "fixed it" anyway, etc...

In a way He did not just save us, but also Him, etc, which I think was all part of the Father's everlasting and eternal plan from the very beginning of any and all beginnings, etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!

I better just say it, cause I've probably already said too much already, and I may not get the chance to say much more for awhile after this maybe... (and expect these post to probably disappear soon BTW)...

God in the OT, God the Spirit, YHWH, etc, might have even Him Himself been a little bit deceived, at least at the beginning anyway, cause He thought we had free will, He thought we all had free will, etc... So was it what Satan put Him through in the OT, or was it God the Father actually put Him through, etc...? He blamed man a lot at first, and as He progressed all the way up until the time of Jesus, I'm sure He went through all kinds of hell, The OT seems to indicate that He did, but not by the time Jesus shows up, Jesus "ministered" to Him, and I believe He was changed, changed by a totally new perspective, and a whole altogether totally different and new point of view, etc...

Some might say, well, but yeah, free will is in the NT too, and it may still seem to be in some places, etc, but where it talks about man choosing, it also highly alludes to the fact that no one can choose apart from God the Father's already preset or already predetermined predestined knowledge, or perspective, or point of view, etc, that it is because of what we do not know, that we seem to have a choice or free will only, etc...

But it's a technicality, like I said...

You all don't know the whole story, etc...

And story provides context, and context is everything, etc...

Anyway, hope to see you all again soon, but if I don't for awhile, I'll try to get back to you soon...

God Bless!

And when Satan's created purpose is done and has run it's whole and complete course, then he is done, regardless of whose to "quote/unquote" "blame", etc...

May not even be a matter of right or wrong, or whatever, he might be just be vessel only meant for only one single thing, and after that has run it's complete course, it's done, and he's done, and it's just all over for him, for he may no further part anymore in the story after that, etc, and that's just "is what is is" and just "the way it is", etc, and has maybe always been, and/or "has to be", etc...

God Bless!

Olivet said:

I feel like I'm at a cross-roads in my faith. I'll always believe in God but I have zero faith that He cares except for those he favors. Anyway, my question(rhetorical one) is this, why is it wrong to bash parents that have kids but fail to care for them?

Immediately people say," They didn't ask to come here, when you have kids you need to provide the best life possible for them." All of this I agree with. I know the answer to this question but with God there's so many of us that didn't ask to be here but people reply with the opposite saying, " God owes you nothing, be grateful and what not"

If I said that to my kid I would be considered toxic. I just think like Why is it ok for God to create millions of people, some that have horrendous lives, Lonely lives, struggle with mental illness and He just watches them struggle?

This along with the verse He has mercy on whomever he wills makes me want to give up on God honestly.

The only way I can make this okay in my head and heart is to cancel out his power. I'd understand if He just couldn't help and was doing the best He could BUT the fact He can and choose not to disturbs me alot.

Idk I need some answers because I just don't see God the same.

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Your knowledge and understanding is limited. Many people believe in GOD but very few believe GOD. If GOD didn't care for all people HE would not of sent forth HIS only begotten Son For the Salvation of all. GOD states in the passage below

“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord.
9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts.

All the suffering in this world is down to sin, people have free will to do good or not. GOD have given the commandments so to make us aware of our sin and bring us to Christ in repentance to have everlasting life through Christ's sacrifice and blood.

If we followed GOD's word the world would be a much better place for everyone but people love darkness and sin. Everyone falls short of the glory of GOD, no exceptions, this includes parents. We are told to Honour our parents and I think who are we too question our creator and HIS reasons especially when we know so little.

We are in a fallen world that is going to get worst especially for those who are in Christ. I hope this helps somewhat. I struggle too in this world but not with GOD, how could I, every good thing I have ever had comes from HIM the bad does not.

Peace be too all those in the Body of Christ.

Olivet said:

Why is it ok for God to create millions of people, some that have horrendous lives, Lonely lives, struggle with mental illness and He just watches them struggle?

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This is a great question without an apparent great answer.

Olivet said:

The only way I can make this okay in my head and heart is to cancel out his power. I'd understand if He just couldn't help and was doing the best He could BUT the fact He can and choose not to disturbs me alot.

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That is one way to approach the question.

Another possibility is that God has reasons that are not available to us, but warranted from God's total perspective. Along similar lines, skeptical theism...

"Skeptical theism provides a defense against the evidential argument from evil, but does not take a position on God’s actual reason for allowing a particular instance of evil. The defense seeks to show that there are good reasons to believe that God could have justified reasons for allowing a particular evil that we cannot discern. Consequently, we are in no position to endorse the minor premise (2) of the argument from evil because we cannot be more than agnostic about the accuracy of the premise. This conclusion would be an undercutting defeater for the premise because there would be no justification for the conclusion that evils in our world are gratuitous. To justify this conclusion, the skeptical theist argues that the limits of human cognitive faculties are grounds for skepticism about our ability to draw conclusions about God's motives or lack of motives; it is therefore reasonable to doubt the second premise."

Skeptical theism - Wikipedia

Olivet said:

If He's leaving us to our own devices why does God talk about being a comforter and promises? Also back to my question, to my knowledge none of us asked to be here so why Is God elusive for some during their time of need ?

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How do you think God should manifest himself to you?

Olivet said:

I feel like I'm at a cross-roads in my faith. I'll always believe in God but I have zero faith that He cares except for those he favors. Anyway, my question(rhetorical one) is this, why is it wrong to bash parents that have kids but fail to care for them?
...
Idk I need some answers because I just don't see God the same.

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I agree. People who start asking questions like this typically end up as liberal Christians or atheists. You'll find discussions on related topics in Controversial Christian Theology.

Without moving to atheism, there are a couple of possible responses that I know of:

1) you need to think of this life as relatively brief preparation for eternal life. Development requires real challenges with real consequences.

2) various approaches that understand God's power more as persuasive than dictating everything that happens

I'm looking here just at the question you raised in the OP, which seemed like it was about the problem of evil and suffering. There's another moral question involving God, which is about the morality of him punishing people with eternal torment. To me the only acceptable answer is that he doesn't. But that's the most common topic for Controversial Christian Theology, so you should look at and maybe participate in discussions there.

If you haven't looked at the videos in post 35, you should, particularly the second one.

Because God is God and we are tiny insignificant ants compared to the all mighty power of the almighty God.

Its impossible for God to make a "wrong" decision. He is 100% Holy and always 100% right. But, its extremely likely that we will make a wrong decision within the next 15 seconds. That's the difference.

hedrick said:

There's another moral question involving God, which is about the morality of him punishing people with eternal torment. To me the only acceptable answer is that he doesn't.

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The wages of sin is death, not eternal life in torment.