Pre-Trib Only My New End Times Chronology

Douggg said:

1260 days + 3 1/2 days is 1263 1/2 days slightly into the second half.

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Except that is not what John shows us. Follow John's Chronology - don't make one up to fit a theory.

The week begins with the first trumpet. Then the first half of the week progresses as each trumpet is sounded. By the time the 6th trumpet has sounded and 1/3 of earth's population has been killed, almost all of the first 1260 days are over, and the two witnesses have not been seen.

Finally, just a few days (probably 3 1/2 days) before the 1260th day, the two witnesses suddenly show up - and they show up then because the man of sin just showed up in Jerusalem with his Gentile armies. So their testimony BEGINS just 3.5 days before the 7th trumpet sounds.

Would any writer write of an event starting days before the end of the first half of the week, and tell the readers that from that moment on, the city would be trampled for the next 42 months, then in the very next verse tell of two witnesses that have already been testifying for almost 1260 days and use FUTURE TENSE verbs to write it - then continue writing of 3 more events showing the moment of their starting - one for another 1260 days, one for time, times and half of time, and one for 42 months without using future tense verbs? I think not. That would be a very sloppy writing and a wrong use of verbs. John used future tense for "shall tread" in verse 2, and future tense for "will give" and "shall prophecy" showing the readers that these events start in the verse of mention and then continue on in the future from that verse.

Compare these two with the next three: "fled" (12:6) is an Aorist showing no tense, and "should feed" is present tense. in 12:14 "were given" is an Aorist showing no tense, "might fly" is present tense, and "Is nourished" is present tense.

In 13:5, the verbs are Aorist, showing no tense.

I submit that all five of these are mentions of countdowns that begin at the first verse of mention and then will continue to count down to the end of the week.

Your theory has future tense verbs for past tense events.

iamlamad said:

Finally, just a few days (probably 3 1/2 days) before the 1260th day, the two witnesses suddenly show up - and they show up then because the man of sin just showed up in Jerusalem with his Gentile armies. So their testimony BEGINS just 3.5 days before the 7th trumpet sounds.

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7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

The two witness are killed at the end of their 1260 day testimony. And after their bodies laying dead in the streets of Jerusalem, and then brought back to life and ascend to heaven - there is the earthquake - then the 7th angel sounds.

That's the order of events, as presented by the text.

Instead, you are placing most of the two witnesses 1260 days testimony "after" the 7th angel sounds - which is not the order the text states.

Douggg said:

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

The two witness are killed at the end of their 1260 day testimony. And after their bodies laying dead in the streets of Jerusalem, and then brought back to life and ascend to heaven - there is the earthquake - then the 7th angel sounds.

That's the order of events, as presented by the text.

Instead, you are placing most of the two witnesses 1260 days testimony "after" the 7th angel sounds - which is not the order the text states.

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Of course if they start and are to testify for a given number of days, they will then FINISH their testimony. No doubt about that. And no doubt that the Beast will kill them. I suspect this is a demonic spirit - probably Satan himself - that will possess the man of sin and turn him into a beast.

The question is, WHEN. Unless people understand verses 4-13 are a parenthesis, they are forced to rearrange things trying to make it fit. Don't make it more difficult: just insert two (...) and it all fits perfectly as written. John is introduced to them in the vision just before the 7th trumpet, is told they must testify for 1260 days, then takes the reader on a side journey down the last half of the week with the two witnesses only, showing their time. John does this with a parenthesis. For chronology, they are introduced, begin their testimony, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint, and the last half of the week begins.

Just so you know, they are killed 3.5 days before the end of the week, lay dead for those 3.5 days and are resurrected on the last day of the week - so the earthquake written in chapter 11 is the SAME earthquake written to end the week in chapter 16. Parentheses are amazing things.

iamlamad said:

The question is, WHEN. Unless people understand verses 4-13 are a parenthesis, they are forced to rearrange things trying to make it fit.

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2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

The two witnesses will be gone, and the beast continues 42 months unhampered by their activity. And his EU army will occupy Jerusalem during that same 42 months.

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iamlamad, you are the one doing the rearranging - (1) by placing the 7th trumpet before the testimony time of the two witnesses. And (2) placing the two witnesses 1260 days in the second half.

There is also a conflict in your interpretation regarding the people of the earth celebrating three and half days before the day that Jesus returns.

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

No celebration being done at the end of the 7 years. Instead, the nations at that time are preparing to make war of Jesus, made fearful by seeing the sign of the Son of Man in heaven.

Douggg said:

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

The two witnesses will be gone, and the beast continues 42 months unhampered by their activity. And his EU army will occupy Jerusalem during that same 42 months.

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iamlamad, you are the one doing the rearranging - (1) by placing the 7th trumpet before the testimony time of the two witnesses. And (2) placing the two witnesses 1260 days in the second half.

There is also a conflict in your interpretation regarding the people of the earth celebrating three and half days before the day that Jesus returns.

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

No celebration being done at the end of the 7 years. Instead, the nations at that time are preparing to make war of Jesus, made fearful by seeing the sign of the Son of Man in heaven.

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verse 2 shows 42 months of trampling, starting RIGHT THEN in John's chronology.
Verse 3 shows 1260 days of witnessing starting RIGHT THEN in John's chronology.
So I have rearranged nothing. I actually believe John as written.

Is the 7th trumpet sounded shortly after the 1260 days in John's order of things? CHECK!
Does all the other mentions of the 3 1/2 year period of time cover the last half of the week? CHECK!

John wrote "will give" and "shall prophecy" as future to that time in John's chronology. Considering a great percentage of John's verbs are Aorist, I pay particular attention when John uses another kind of verb. This makes perfect sense, since they are to start here (at the time of verse 3) and count down to the end of the week, as the other 5 mentions of this time frame do.

It makes every more sense that verses 4 through 13 are a parenthesis, since 12:6 is only seconds after the abomination that will be marked by the 7th trumpet.
11:2 & 11:3 only days before the midpoint.
11:15 AT the midpoint.
12:6 seconds after the midpoint.

The only way this makes sense is if the story of the two witnesses is written as a parenthesis. Otherwise one is forced to believe (in error) that John did not write in good chronology.
As for the celebration, I must believe what is written: God has created total darkness across the land, maybe around the world, but the two witnesses are killed, and people celebrate, thinking all their problems were caused by the two witnesses. Therefore I must believe that while they are preparing for Armageddon, they take a moment to celebrate.

iamlamad said:

The 7th Trumpet is for a week of days. Prove it with scripture, else it is imagination.

The 42 months given to Satan, the 1260 days of the 2 witnesses, this time frame splits the week in half. Are you saying one of these two is in the first half?

The 7th Trumpet then sounds for the whole 3.5 years, plus the first 4 days, and then the 4 days after. Pure imagination - cannot be proven with scripture. The trumpet is sounded by an angel, by blowing into it. Sorry, no angel has that kind of lung power. The truth is, John does not tell us how long a trumpet sounds. It is probable that events that happen when a trumpet sounds, take longer than the trumpet sound itself.

You have too much imagination to continue.

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Because they marched around Jericho for 7 days, starting on a Sunday. Jesus brought an end to the OT economy with a week that began with a Sunday and ended on a Sunday. The 7th Trumpet is the end of all things. It is an 8 day week as well. The stars have been angels shining for 7000 years. The 7th Angel was designed for that single purpose.

iamlamad said:

verse 2 shows 42 months of trampling, starting RIGHT THEN in John's chronology.
Verse 3 shows 1260 days of witnessing starting RIGHT THEN in John's chronology.
So I have rearranged nothing. I actually believe John as written.

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There is no John's chronology of him placing the 42 months, the 1260 days, the time, times, half time, on a timeline in proper relation of the events to each other. It is up for the reader and them who hear what is contained in Revelation - to perform that task.

The temple that John measures is the temple in the end times. The significance of measuring that temple is that the sanctuary building will be smaller than the second temple - because of the end times time window involved.

The 42 months are "right then" within the 7 years, corresponding to the 42 months of the beast in Revelation 13:5, continuing after the two witnesses are gone. Basically, the second half of the 7 years.

And the 1260 days of the two witnesses are "right then" within the 7 years, as well. The first half of the seven 7 years.

iamlamad said:

Is the 7th trumpet sounded shortly after the 1260 days in John's order of things? CHECK!
Does all the other mentions of the 3 1/2 year period of time cover the last half of the week? CHECK!

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The 7th angel introduces the third woe (Revelation 8:13). The third woe is Satan (and his third of the angels) being cast down for earth, in great wrath, because he has only a time, times, half time left. The second half of the seven years. CHECK!

iamlamad said:

It makes every more sense that verses 4 through 13 are a parenthesis, since 12:6 is only seconds after the abomination that will be marked by the 7th trumpet.
11:2 & 11:3 only days before the midpoint.
11:15 AT the midpoint.
12:6 seconds after the midpoint.

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Why did the information about the three woes end in Chapter 9 with only two of the woes revealed?

It is because those are in the second half of the 7 years. With the second woe being very near the end of the 7 years. What those two woes don't indicate is the beginning of the second half.

The third woe in Revelation is not revealed until Revelation 12, which nails down the main significant event at the beginning the second half.

The third woe to the inhabiters of the earth spans the second half - as the time, times, half time. And begins when Satan and his angels are cast down to earth, as God begins making the kingdoms of this world His kingdom and of His Christ (when the 7th angel begins to sound).

Satan cast down to earth is near the very beginning of the second half. He is the fallen star (angel) in Revelation 9, given the keys to the bottomless pit. Being a star falling from heaven indicates that
person to be a rebeller to God.

Timtofly said:

Because they marched around Jericho for 7 days, starting on a Sunday. Jesus brought an end to the OT economy with a week that began with a Sunday and ended on a Sunday. The 7th Trumpet is the end of all things. It is an 8 day week as well. The stars have been angels shining for 7000 years. The 7th Angel was designed for that single purpose.

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Your logic reminds me of what my dad used to tell me about why fire engines are painted red. It went something like this:

“Because there are 12 men on a fire crew, and there are twelve inches in a foot, and one foot is a ruler, and Queen Elizabeth was a ruler, and Queen Elizabeth was also a ship, and the ship sailed the seas, and there were fish in the seas, and fish have fins, and the Finns fought the Russians, and the Russians are red, and fire trucks are always “Russian" around, so that's why fire trucks are red."

There are 22 chapters in Revelation. The 7th trumpet sounding is in chapter 11. That is only half way through the book! The truth is, the 7th trumpet marks the MIDPOINT of the week, not the end.

Douggg said:

Why did the information about the three woes end in Chapter 9 with only two of the woes revealed?

It is because those are in the second half of the 7 years. With the second woe being very near the end of the 7 years. What those two woes don't indicate is the beginning of the second half.

The third woe in Revelation is not revealed until Revelation 12, which nails down the main significant event at the beginning the second half.

The third woe to the inhabiters of the earth spans the second half - as the time, times, half time. And begins when Satan and his angels are cast down to earth, as God begins making the kingdoms of this world His kingdom and of His Christ (when the 7th angel begins to sound).

Satan cast down to earth is near the very beginning of the second half. He is the fallen star (angel) in Revelation 9, given the keys to the bottomless pit. Being a star falling from heaven indicates that
person to be a rebeller to God.

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Why did the information about the three woes end in Chapter 9 with only two of the woes revealed? I think you are probably asking why John went into an intermission after two woes and before the third woe? Or why did John interrupt his narrative of the trumpets after the 6th trumpet (2nd woe) and go into an intermission in chapter 10? Why did He not just finish his narrative of the trumpets? (John did not put in chapter headings.)

My answer: John and the Holy Spirit were a stickler for chronology: it had to be perfect. Events will happen before the 7th trumpet and John records those events. And God chose to preface the 7th trumpet with remarks about the 7th trumpet - probably because it is a very KEY event in the book of Revelation - a mountain peak event.

It is because those are in the second half of the 7 years. Sorry, but this is imagination. You still haven't figured out where John has the exact midpoint. And you don't believe what God told me: that He "marked" the midpoint with the 7th trumpet. It is not that difficult to get close - even if one did not know God "marked" it: according to Daniel, what ever event stops the daily sacrifices - that event will divide the week. Paul told us what that event will be: the man of sin entering the most holy place in the new temple and declaring he, a man, is God. Jesus then told us that when they SEE that abomination - they are to flee - and we see the start of that fleeing in 12:6 - proving that 12:6 is only seconds after the dividing point of the week. Therefore, the exact midpoint would be only a few verses before 12:6. It is not in 12:1-5 because that is a parenthesis about Jesus' birth. It is somewhere in chapter 11. The truth is, God chose to have the 7th trumpet sound the moment of the abomination as a marker.

With the second woe being very near the end of the 7 years. This is worse than imagination: it is myth. All woes are finished before any vials are poured out.

The third woe in Revelation is not revealed until Revelation 12, which nails down the main significant event at the beginning the second half.

The third woe is twofold. First it is initiated by the 7th trumpet because the woes are tied to the last three trumpets. But it really begins at this verse: 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

The 7th trumpet will be Michael's signal to cast Satan down, so the war in heaven will begin soon after the 7th trumpet sounds, exactly as John wrote it: the war follows the 7th trumpet. We then agree that the war in in the first part of the second half of the week.

The third woe to the inhabiters of the earth spans the second half I can agree with this two: it will include the days of GT - Satan venting his anger against people.

iamlamad said:

The third woe to the inhabiters of the earth spans the second half I can agree with this two: it will include the days of GT - Satan venting his anger against people.

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Satan will be cast down to earth in Revelation 12 having only a time, times, half time left.

Who is the falling star in Revelation 9:1, who opens the bottomless pit to initiate the 5th trumpet event (the first woe)?
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There had to be a break from Revelation 9 to set up the reason for that action of the falling star to earth.

That reason is - with the killing of the two witnesses by Satan's agent the beast, that will be the last straw for God regarding putting up with Satan and his kingdom of mystery Babylon the great.

This is the sequence...

The two witnesses testify 1260 days (first half), then 3 1/2 days into the second half, they ascend to heaven. Then the 7th angel sounds his trumpet, immediately followed by Satan being cast down to earth in Revelation 12.

Satan is the falling star to earth in Revelation 9:1. He will have a time, times, half time left.

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iamlamad said:

The week begins with the first trumpet.

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What the bible indicates is that the 70th week begins with the confirming of the covenant for 7 years.

iamlamad said:

Your logic reminds me of what my dad used to tell me about why fire engines are painted red. It went something like this:

“Because there are 12 men on a fire crew, and there are twelve inches in a foot, and one foot is a ruler, and Queen Elizabeth was a ruler, and Queen Elizabeth was also a ship, and the ship sailed the seas, and there were fish in the seas, and fish have fins, and the Finns fought the Russians, and the Russians are red, and fire trucks are always “Russian" around, so that's why fire trucks are red."

There are 22 chapters in Revelation. The 7th trumpet sounding is in chapter 11. That is only half way through the book! The truth is, the 7th trumpet marks the MIDPOINT of the week, not the end.

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The 7th Trumpet is not a short blast. The blast last for days. Revelation 10:5-7

5 Then the angel I saw standing on the sea and on the land lifted his right hand toward heaven
6 and swore by the One who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and what is in it, earth and what is in it, and the sea and what is in it: “There will be no more delay;
7 on the contrary, in the days of the sound from the seventh angel when he sounds his shofar, the hidden plan of God will be brought to completion, the Good News as he proclaimed it to his servants the prophets.”

It does not say the days surrounding the 7th Trumpet. It says the days of the sound coming from the 7th Trumpet.

I compared and interpreted Scriptural events with this final event that brings to completion the hidden plan of God. This plan was revealed by the prophets both OT and NT. This is the completion of Daniel's 6 points. Daniel says a week is split. You can interpret that in your 7 years, or a literal week. Since God placed 2 other literal weeks that brought an end to what John is describing in Revelation they are pertinent. Joshua's triumphant over the nations led to the nation of Jacob. This defeat included trumpets. The week of the Cross brought an end to Jacob and the church began. This was Christ sealing those into the body of Christ. This final week of 8 days will be the sounding that comes out of the 7th Trumpet.

The Seals are the end of the church. The Trumpets are an end to Jacob. Between the 6th and 7th Trumpet are 7 Thunders. They bring an end to the Nations. The Nations being the aftermath of God destroying the sons of God, and the world he created in perfection. Whatever 10 kingdoms bring to the table at Armageddon will be the satanic followers of the 42 months of the FP, the image, and Satan. It will be one last stand of those left behind.

iamlamad said:

Sorry, but this is imagination. You still haven't figured out where John has the exact midpoint. And you don't believe what God told me: that He "marked" the midpoint with the 7th trumpet. It is not that difficult to get close - even if one did not know God "marked" it: according to Daniel, what ever event stops the daily sacrifices - that event will divide the week.

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The 7th Trumpet marks the end of the final harvest. It does not "mark the beginning of anything". It is a completion.

Douggg said:

The two witnesses testify 1260 days (first half), then 3 1/2 days into the second half, they ascend to heaven. Then the 7th angel sounds his trumpet, immediately followed by Satan being cast down to earth in Revelation 12.

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This cannot be, because the 144k and Christ Himself gather the final harvest. The 2 witnesses are in chapter 11 which is also covered by the 7th Trumpet. The 2 witnesses are the only witness on earth during Satan's 42 months. There is no set time schedule for the first "half". The first half is the last 3.5 years of Jesus being on earth. It is not defined because no one knows when the Second Coming can happen. Those who claim it is the end of Satan's 42 months can know. The 42 months define the time of the battle of Armageddon. Nothing can define when the Second Coming happens, literally nothing! The longer God waits, the more souls are added to the church.

Timtofly said:

This cannot be, because the 144k and Christ Himself gather the final harvest. The 2 witnesses are in chapter 11 which is also covered by the 7th Trumpet. The 2 witnesses are the only witness on earth during Satan's 42 months. There is nobset time schedule for the first "half". The first half is the last 3.5 years of Jesus being on earth.

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In the text of Revelation 11, the two witnesses testify 1260 days. Then are killed by Satan's agent the beast. Then they lay dead in the streets of Jerusalem 3 1/2 days before coming back to life and called up to heaven.

Then the earthquake in Jerusalem. Then the 7th angel begin to sound his trumpet.

That is the infallible order of sequence in Revelation 11.

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And no, the first half of the 7 years were not Jesus being here on earth. You are making a misinterpretation of Daniel 9.

The 2300 days of the vision of the little horn, the daily sacrifice, the transgression of desolation are "time of the end" in the text. The 2300 days fit within the time of the end 7 years.

Douggg said:

In the text of Revelation 11, the two witnesses testify 1260 days. Then are killed by Satan's agent the beast. Then they lay dead in the streets of Jerusalem 3 1/2 days before coming back to life and called up to heaven.

Then the earthquake in Jerusalem. Then the 7th angel begin to sound his trumpet.

That is the infallible order of sequence in Revelation 11.

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And no, the first half of the 7 years were not Jesus being here on earth. You are making a misinterpretation of Daniel 9.

The 2300 days of the vision of the little horn, the daily sacrifice, the transgression of desolation are "time of the end" in the text. The 2300 days fit within the time of the end 7 years.

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This thread is also from a pre-trib perspective. The Second Coming has to be pre-trib as well.

Douggg said:

Satan will be cast down to earth in Revelation 12 having only a time, times, half time left.

Who is the falling star in Revelation 9:1, who opens the bottomless pit to initiate the 5th trumpet event (the first woe)?
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There had to be a break from Revelation 9 to set up the reason for that action of the falling star to earth.

That reason is - with the killing of the two witnesses by Satan's agent the beast, that will be the last straw for God regarding putting up with Satan and his kingdom of mystery Babylon the great.

This is the sequence...

The two witnesses testify 1260 days (first half), then 3 1/2 days into the second half, they ascend to heaven. Then the 7th angel sounds his trumpet, immediately followed by Satan being cast down to earth in Revelation 12.

Satan is the falling star to earth in Revelation 9:1. He will have a time, times, half time left.

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There had to be a break from Revelation 9 to set up the reason for that action of the falling star to earth. I don't think so.

That reason is - with the killing of the two witnesses No. The two witnesses will be killed at the very end of the week. Your timing is way off.

The two witnesses testify 1260 days (first half) Impossible. John used future tense verbs at a point near the midpoint of the week, making their testimony future from that point on, as I have pointed out countless times.

It would be silly for a writer to have one verse starting a count-down to the end of the week from that point, and then in the next verse start a countdown using future tense verbs - that really was started 3.49 years before. Then shortly after that, start another countdown like the first, starting in that verse: 12:6. And then another and another. Sorry, but I cannot buy your theory. Why not just take it as John wrote it, and see that they BEGIN their witnessing at the moment of first mention: 11:3? (Perhaps you don't know, but some have solved the chapter 11 chronology dilemma by including all of chapter 10, and all of chapter 11 up to verse 13 as a long parenthesis. I don't buy that theory either.)

In short, I like my theory better! ;-)

Douggg said:

In the text of Revelation 11, the two witnesses testify 1260 days. Then are killed by Satan's agent the beast. Then they lay dead in the streets of Jerusalem 3 1/2 days before coming back to life and called up to heaven.

Then the earthquake in Jerusalem. Then the 7th angel begin to sound his trumpet.

That is the infallible order of sequence in Revelation 11.

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And no, the first half of the 7 years were not Jesus being here on earth. You are making a misinterpretation of Daniel 9.

The 2300 days of the vision of the little horn, the daily sacrifice, the transgression of desolation are "time of the end" in the text. The 2300 days fit within the time of the end 7 years.

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That is the infallible order of sequence in Revelation 11. Except for a parenthesis which puts that which is inside the parenthesis out of the sequence.

iamlamad said:

There had to be a break from Revelation 9 to set up the reason for that action of the falling star to earth. I don't think so.

That reason is - with the killing of the two witnesses No. The two witnesses will be killed at the very end of the week. Your timing is way off.

The two witnesses testify 1260 days (first half) Impossible. John used future tense verbs at a point near the midpoint of the week, making their testimony future from that point on, as I have pointed out countless times.

It would be silly for a writer to have one verse starting a count-down to the end of the week from that point, and then in the next verse start a countdown using future tense verbs - that really was started 3.49 years before. Then shortly after that, start another countdown like the first, starting in that verse: 12:6. And then another and another. Sorry, but I cannot buy your theory. Why not just take it as John wrote it, and see that they BEGIN their witnessing at the moment of first mention: 11:3? (Perhaps you don't know, but some have solved the chapter 11 chronology dilemma by including all of chapter 10, and all of chapter 11 up to verse 13 as a long parenthesis. I don't buy that theory either.)

In short, I like my theory better! ;-)

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Who is the falling star from heaven in Revelation 9:1, who opens the bottomless pit to initiate the 5th trumpet event (the first woe)?

And what causes that person to be a falling star?