The Partial Preterist Believers Safe House

Daniel Martinovich said:

???? The Bible proves Elijah was still on earth writing letters after his catching away????

Where would that be? In some fakery like the apocryphal books?

Phillip the evangelist.

Click to expand...

Yes, scripture declares Elijah was writing letters after his taking up to heaven. 2 chronicles ch 21 takes place future to 2 kings ch 2.

2 kings 2:11 And as they still went on and talked, behold, chariots of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

2 chronicles 21:12 And a letter came to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, “Thus says the LORD, the God of David your father, ‘Because you have not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat your father, or in the ways of Asa king of Judah,

Jesus further confirmed that Elijah did not literally ascend to heaven (God's throne) in 2 kings 2:11

john 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.

Daniel Martinovich said:

YeI showed you multiple verses where they are not “sleeping.”
“By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭3:19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Either the Bible is contradicting itself and therefore not the Word of God. Or. You are grossly misreading it.

Click to expand...

I'm sorry, but in light of the hundreds of verses that literally refer to death as sleep, your one single nebulous verse is not going to prove anything. Your example can be easily explained a different way, but neither "the dead know nothing" nor "dust you are and to dust you shall return" can be denied.

Daniel Martinovich said:

???? The Bible proves Elijah was still on earth writing letters after his catching away????

Where would that be? In some fakery like the apocryphal books?

Click to expand...

Your arrogance is clouding your vision.

When Elijah was taken up in the whirlwind (aka "tornado") he was taken up into the first heaven, which is our atmosphere where the birds fly. And we know that he was still alive several years after the whirlwind event because he wrote a letter. How do we know this?

First of all, we know that Elisha had already taken the mantle of prophet from Elijah during the reign of Joram son of Ahab. 2 Kings 3.

Joram son of Ahab became king over Israel in Samaria during the eighteenth year of Judah’s King Jehoshaphat and reigned 12 years.

Immediately after king Joram began to reign (2 Kings 1), Elijah was taken up in the whirlwind (2 Kings 2). We know this not only because of the order of the book of 2nd Kings (chapter 2 comes after chapter 1) but also because it's confirmed in chapter 3 that Elisha is the new prophet.

11 But Jehoshaphat said, “Isn’t there a prophet of the Lord here? Let’s inquire of Yahweh through him.” One of the servants of the king of Israel answered, “Elisha son of Shaphat, who used to pour water on Elijah’s hands, is here.”

Elisha had picked up the mantle (literally) when Elijah was taken by the whirlwind.

2 Kings 2:13
Elisha picked up the mantle that had fallen off Elijah and went back and stood on the bank of the Jordan.

Five years into the reign of King Joram of Israel (and five years after the whirlwind), a new king began his reign in Judah (in place of Jehosophat). This King's name was Jeroham.

2 Kings 8:16
In the fifth year of Joram son of Ahab king of Israel, when Jehoshaphat was king of Judah, Jehoram son of Jehoshaphat began his reign as king of Judah.

Now this next verse is the key. One of the things he did as King was to kill his brothers so that they couldn't claim the throne.

2 Chronicles 21:4
When Jehoram had established himself over his father’s kingdom, he strengthened his position by killing with the sword all his brothers as well as some of the princes of Israel.

2 Chronicles 21:12-15
Jehoram received a letter from Elijah the prophet, which said:

“This is what the Lord, the God of your father David, says: ‘You have not followed the ways of your father Jehoshaphat or of Asa king of Judah. 13 But you have followed the ways of the kings of Israel, and you have led Judah and the people of Jerusalem to prostitute themselves, just as the house of Ahab did. You have also murdered your own brothers, members of your own family, men who were better than you. 14 So now the Lord is about to strike your people, your sons, your wives and everything that is yours, with a heavy blow. 15 You yourself will be very ill with a lingering disease of the bowels, until the disease causes your bowels to come out.’”

The letter proves that Elijah was alive after king Jehoram of Israel killed his own brothers, and that happened five years after king Joram of Judah began to reign, which is exactly when Elijah was taken up in the whirlwind.

Bottom line, Elijah survived the whirlwind.

Freedm said:

I'm sorry, but in light of the hundreds of verses that literally refer to death as sleep, your one single nebulous verse is not going to prove anything. Your example can be easily explained a different way, but neither "the dead know nothing" nor "dust you are and to dust you shall return" can be denied.

Click to expand...

I provided a half dozen verses+ during our conversation here. Not one.

Freedm said:

Your arrogance is clouding your vision.

When Elijah was taken up in the whirlwind (aka "tornado") he was taken up into the first heaven, which is our atmosphere where the birds fly. And we know that he was still alive several years after the whirlwind event because he wrote a letter. How do we know this?

First of all, we know that Elisha had already taken the mantle of prophet from Elijah during the reign of Joram son of Ahab. 2 Kings 3.

Joram son of Ahab became king over Israel in Samaria during the eighteenth year of Judah’s King Jehoshaphat and reigned 12 years.

Immediately after king Joram began to reign (2 Kings 1), Elijah was taken up in the whirlwind (2 Kings 2). We know this not only because of the order of the book of 2nd Kings (chapter 2 comes after chapter 1) but also because it's confirmed in chapter 3 that Elisha is the new prophet.

11 But Jehoshaphat said, “Isn’t there a prophet of the Lord here? Let’s inquire of Yahweh through him.” One of the servants of the king of Israel answered, “Elisha son of Shaphat, who used to pour water on Elijah’s hands, is here.”

Elisha had picked up the mantle (literally) when Elijah was taken by the whirlwind.

2 Kings 2:13
Elisha picked up the mantle that had fallen off Elijah and went back and stood on the bank of the Jordan.

Five years into the reign of King Joram of Israel (and five years after the whirlwind), a new king began his reign in Judah (in place of Jehosophat). This King's name was Jeroham.

2 Kings 8:16
In the fifth year of Joram son of Ahab king of Israel, when Jehoshaphat was king of Judah, Jehoram son of Jehoshaphat began his reign as king of Judah.

Now this next verse is the key. One of the things he did as King was to kill his brothers so that they couldn't claim the throne.

2 Chronicles 21:4
When Jehoram had established himself over his father’s kingdom, he strengthened his position by killing with the sword all his brothers as well as some of the princes of Israel.

2 Chronicles 21:12-15
Jehoram received a letter from Elijah the prophet, which said:

“This is what the Lord, the God of your father David, says: ‘You have not followed the ways of your father Jehoshaphat or of Asa king of Judah. 13 But you have followed the ways of the kings of Israel, and you have led Judah and the people of Jerusalem to prostitute themselves, just as the house of Ahab did. You have also murdered your own brothers, members of your own family, men who were better than you. 14 So now the Lord is about to strike your people, your sons, your wives and everything that is yours, with a heavy blow. 15 You yourself will be very ill with a lingering disease of the bowels, until the disease causes your bowels to come out.’”

The letter proves that Elijah was alive after king Jehoram of Israel killed his own brothers, and that happened five years after king Joram of Judah began to reign, which is exactly when Elijah was taken up in the whirlwind.

Bottom line, Elijah survived the whirlwind.

Click to expand...

Interesting. One could also assume as you are. Being a prophet of his stature. He could have written that letter 5 years before any of it occurred. But even if what your saying is correct. He still appears with Moses and has a conversation with Jesus on the mount of transfiguration. Making them alive. Not dead as you are describing dead

Daniel Martinovich said:

Interesting. One could also assume as you are. Being a prophet of his stature. He could have written that letter 5 years before any of it occurred. But even if what your saying is correct. He still appears with Moses and has a conversation with Jesus on the mount of transfiguration. Making them alive. Not dead as you are describing dead

Click to expand...

Yes, that appearance on the mount is a bit of a baffle to me. Not sure what to make of it. I've heard it said that it was a vision, not an actual event, but I'm not sure that's a strong position to take. I suppose it would be much more clear if we knew the timing of the first resurrection.

I believe 70 AD makes a lot of sense for the first resurrection, but Daniel 12 seems to indicate that "at that time" (the time of Antiochus Epiphanes) there would be a resurrection, which doesn't really make sense to me at all considering Jesus hadn't even appeared yet. And yes, I realize you're not at all on the same wave length as I in regards to this resurrection, so my thoughts here are not necessarily directed at you. I'm just thinking out loud.

I have a bit of a puzzle that I'm struggling with and I'd love to have some input from fellow preterists.

It's regarding Daniel chapter 2, specifically verses 44 to 45.

“In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever. 45 This is the meaning of the vision of the rock cut out of a mountain, but not by human hands—a rock that broke the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold to pieces.

So the text tells us that "in the time of those kings" the kingdom of Christ will be set up, but what's puzzling is that "those kings" appear to be referring to the kings of each of the four kingdoms described prior. That is Babylon, Persia, Greece and the fourth mystery kingdom. The kingdom of Babylon ended when Darius the Mede killed Belshazzar in 539 AD and Christ did not come to earth until obviously much later, so that gives us a time frame of well over 500 years, during which the kingdom of Christ was established.

It also says that this kingdom of Christ will crush all those kingdoms, so it can't be said that the kingdom of Christ was setup only during the fourth kingdom, or at the end of it, but the setting up of this kingdom indeed spanned the existence of all four on the timeline or it could not have crushed all those kingdoms nor bring them to an end. What then constitutes the setting up of the kingdom?

Similarly, the following passages are referring to the same event, though these are less clear on the timeline, only implying that the kingdom of Christ is set up after the other four kingdoms are destroyed.

Daniel 7:13-14
“In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

Daniel 7:26-27
‘But the court will sit, and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the holy people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.’

Freedm said:

I have a bit of a puzzle that I'm struggling with and I'd love to have some input from fellow preterists.

It's regarding Daniel chapter 2, specifically verses 44 to 45.

“In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever. 45 This is the meaning of the vision of the rock cut out of a mountain, but not by human hands—a rock that broke the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold to pieces.

So the text tells us that "in the time of those kings" the kingdom of Christ will be set up, but what's puzzling is that "those kings" appear to be referring to the kings of each of the four kingdoms described prior. That is Babylon, Persia, Greece and the fourth mystery kingdom. The kingdom of Babylon ended when Darius the Mede killed Belshazzar in 539 AD and Christ did not come to earth until obviously much later, so that gives us a time frame of well over 500 years, during which the kingdom of Christ was established.

It also says that this kingdom of Christ will crush all those kingdoms, so it can't be said that the kingdom of Christ was setup only during the fourth kingdom, or at the end of it, but the setting up of this kingdom indeed spanned the existence of all four on the timeline or it could not have crushed all those kingdoms nor bring them to an end. What then constitutes the setting up of the kingdom?

Click to expand...

I’ve always looked at that verses to be referring to the 4th empire. But either way it’s fine because the qualifying verse is the next one. He won’t leave it to other people. Meaning, as we look at all the prophecy on the matter and with hindsight. The kingdom he was setting up to eventually be the most dominate influence in the world would no longer be confined to ancient Israel which consisted of a minority of true believers and a majority of unbelievers; ie “other people.”
The kingdom spoken of here would consist of believers of all races and nations. And indeed. Theses empires, the whole modus operandi’ of the ancient world is slowly but surely being crushed by the influence of believers. The citizens of the kingdom of heaven.

Freedm said:

Similarly, the following passages are referring to the same event, though these are less clear on the timeline, only implying that the kingdom of Christ is set up after the other four kingdoms are destroyed.

Daniel 7:13-14
“In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

Daniel 7:26-27
‘But the court will sit, and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the holy people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.’

Click to expand...

Before I answer this. You need to understand I am not a preterist. I believe the prophecy regarding the end of the old covenant age and the destruction of Jerusalem 70 ad is talking about that. But the prophecy talking about the age of the four gentile empires did not end until the Roman Empire ended in 1453 ad. When what had been the capitol of he Roman Empire since 333ad, Constantinople was conquered and the last Roman Emperor killed. you want to see who that 11th horn is? Simply subtract 1260 years from 1453ad and you’ll see the perfect fulfillment. Note* 1260 days of years is mentioned 6 times in reference to the Roman Empire. Starting there in Daniel 7.

But what happened happened in 1453 ad that changed things? The very year the empire ended was the very year the first European printing press went online. Within decades, for the first time in human history. The Bible (illegally) began to get into the hands of the general public. (Northern Europe first)

It was that, that provided the light for people to be able to begin to through off the chains of darkness of the ancient world. In a complete reversal of world events. Now the nations most influenced by the Bible have been dominate in the world. For its betterment.

Isaiah 29:
18And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

19The meek also shall increase their joy in the LORD, and the poor among men shall rejoice in the Holy One of Israel.

20For the terrible one is brought to nought, and the scorner is consumed, and all that watch for iniquity are cut off:

The terrible ones are the kings, emperors, dictators that ruled the ancient world. This process continues.

Daniel Martinovich said:

I’ve always looked at that verses to be referring to the 4th empire. But either way it’s fine because the qualifying verse is the next one. He won’t leave it to other people. Meaning, as we look at all the prophecy on the matter and with hindsight. The kingdom he was setting up to eventually be the most dominate influence in the world would no longer be confined to ancient Israel which consisted of a minority of true believers and a majority of unbelievers; ie “other people.”
The kingdom spoken of here would consist of believers of all races and nations. And indeed. Theses empires, the whole modus operandi’ of the ancient world is slowly but surely being crushed by the influence of believers. The citizens of the kingdom of heaven.

Click to expand...

So, keeping in mind that the book says the rock would crush all of those kingdoms, that including all four whether the fourth is Rome or not, would you agree that the setting up of the kingdom of Christ began in the days of Babylon, regardless of when that setup was complete?

And further to that, when do you believe the kingdom of Christ was truly established, in the sense that the "setup" was complete?

.

Freedm said:

So, keeping in mind that the book says the rock would crush all of those kingdoms, that including all four whether the fourth is Rome or not, would you agree that the setting up of the kingdom of Christ began in the days of Babylon, regardless of when that setup was complete?

And further to that, when do you believe the kingdom of Christ was truly established, in the sense that the "setup" was complete?

Click to expand...

Well the invisible kingdom of God has always existed and Jesus has always been the king. He has always exercised his authority to set up or crush kingdoms. So that is one aspect.

Another aspect is that Ancient Israel ceased to be a kingdom once Babylon conquered it. So any connection to the kingdom prophesied to come ceased at that point. So in that sense the kingdom that was prophesied began to be set up once Ancient Israel ceased to be a kingdom. Which really brings it to the major point.

Although Jesus has always been king. He has not always been the seed of Abraham, the descendent of David. A human being that was to reign as king forever in the prophesied kingdom of God. And like I shared with you before about 1st Co 15. When he came he reigned as absolute king over every aspect of planet earth. Then after he reigned. He laid his life down, submitted the kingdom to his father and was raised up thereby conquering the last enemy. So I’d say at that point it was set up.

However completion, as in fulfillment of the 100 chapters of good news prophecy that concerns this present age of promise? The age that was to begin once the fourth empire fell? Well in the light of history. This age has just barely begun. But ever since it began 500 some years ago. The free world, founded upon Biblical principle has been been growing no matter what the Gogs and Magogs of the world throw at it to stop that from happening. A foolish world thinks this free world exists because of mankind’s own wisdom and evolutionary progress. That’s a crock. It exists because of the influence of the invisible kingdom of God. Not that we as his people don’t have to win the promises. But he is the author, the finisher and his zeal is the driving force.

1disciple said:

Members who chose to participate in this safe house should be partial preterists.

Click to expand...

If you aint partial pret - you aint supposed to be here - period.

I'm interested in learning more about partial preterism could someone recommend a podcast or audio lectures please?

Yours in the Lord,

JM said:

I'm interested in learning more about partial preterism could someone recommend a podcast or audio lectures please?

Yours in the Lord,

Click to expand...

I don't know of any good audio sources, but here's a good free pdf book to read on the subject: Raptureless: First Edition (Free Download) – Better Covenant Academy (weltonacademy.com)

JM said:

I'm interested in learning more about partial preterism could someone recommend a podcast or audio lectures please?

Yours in the Lord,

Click to expand...

Try the preteristarchive.com. Be careful though, because the site includes all preterist views...meaning full preterim.
Partial preterism and amillenialism are very close.

JM said:

I'm interested in learning more about partial preterism could someone recommend a podcast or audio lectures please?

Yours in the Lord,

Click to expand...

Try my website. No podcast though. Just old fashioned writing.
Wordservice.org Christian Ministries and Publishing

ps. Don’t anyone go reporting me for trying to get donations. I’ve got a thousand plus pages of information on that site. It has articles that have been number one or on the first page of a Google search for decades. It’s getting 30,000 hits a month and I’ve had exactly $100 donated to it. It’s there to help people understand the Bible. Not for my enrichment.

ebedmelech said:

Try the preteristarchive.com.

Click to expand...

Make that .org instead. preteristarchive DOT com leads to an Indonesian sports betting site...

actionsub said:

Make that .org instead. preteristarchive DOT com leads to an Indonesian sports betting site...

Click to expand...

They offer betting on all PAST sporting events... its a sure thing!

I found this site and sermons helpful.

The Revelation Project