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The Partial Preterist Believers Safe House

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by 1disciple, Apr 15, 2013.

  1. ralliann

    ralliann christian

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    The heavenly body, is an eternal body.
    Yes it would?
    What of enoch?
     
  2. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

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    Sure he did. If they are not dead but alive. What do you think they are? What about Moses and Elijah? Both alive. One dead and buried, one raptured. But talking to Jesus. What are they? What do you think it means: To be like the angels which Hebrews says are spirits? See I know none of this can be made to fit what you believe. That the resurrection is a one or two time event were dead bodies come out of the grave. But maybe what you believe is the problem.
     
  3. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Again, I think you may be confusing "resurrection" with "resuscitation"

    I don’t find anywhere that scripture teaches that these "raisings' were of any different nature than a resuscitation like Lazarus' rising, the rising of Jarius' daughter, or the boy raised by Elijah. According to Hebrews 11:35, such resuscitations are not the "better resurrection." In the "better resurrection," there is no way to die again.

    We have no scriptural basis to claim these people, like Lazarus, et al, did NOT go on to die again after being raised.
     
  4. ralliann

    ralliann christian

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    I did not say whether they died again or not. I have said they were resurrected from the dead and they were. So, you seem to believe unless someone is given a heavenly body they aren't considered resurrected? I am not so sure about that. I do think that we will receive heavenly bodies as an inheritance into the eternal kingdom of heaven. And that body will not die again.
     
  5. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Well, Resurrection is a tricky topic to nail down.
    The bible uses the term "resurrection" of national restorations, personal salvation/baptism, the transfer of departed souls in the O.T. Hades into God's heaven, and the final state of all things.
    I do not believe the term is used to describe these particular resuscitations except in Hebrews to specifically notate they are separate, distinct and “lesser” raisings than the raisings contained in the doctrine of the “resurrection of the dead”

    I fully agree.
     
  6. ralliann

    ralliann christian

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    Well here is the strongs on resurrection. And it does have some of the context you mention above. What interested me was the note concerning Hebrews 11:35

    386 ἀνάστασις anastasis an-as’-tas-is

    from 450; n f; TDNT-1:371,60; {See TDNT 74}

    AV-resurrection 39, rising again 1, that should rise 1, raised to life again + 1537 1; 42

    1) a raising up, rising (e.g. from a seat)
    2) a rising from the dead
    2a) that of Christ
    2b) that of all men at the end of this present age
    2c) the resurrection of certain ones history who were restored to life (#Heb 11:35)

    Heb 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

    I think they just received life again in their mortal body.
     
  7. Freedm

    Freedm Well-Known Member

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    I'm open to the possibility that what I believe is the problem, but I'm hoping to come to greater understanding. I'm not looking to prove anybody wrong or right.

    Can you explain to me what you believe to be "the first resurrection".
     
  8. Freedm

    Freedm Well-Known Member

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    Agreed.

    I'm not sure about Enoch although Jesus did say "No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven" so that alone would tell me that the story of Enoch has been misunderstood, (or perhaps even fabricated altogether).

    The Elijah story for sure has been misunderstood and we can use scripture to prove it. The reason we know Elijah was alive after the whirlwind is because he wrote a letter to king Jehoran who reigned after the whirlwind, and the letter references an event that took place five years after the whirlwind.

    More detailed explanation

    When he was taken up in the whirlwind (aka "tornado") he was taken up into the first heaven, which is our atmosphere where the birds fly.

    And we know that he was still alive several years after the whirlwind event because he wrote a letter. How do we know this?

    First of all, we know that Elisha had already taken the mantle of prophet from Elijah during the reign of Joram son of Ahab. 2 Kings 3.

    Joram son of Ahab became king over Israel in Samaria during the eighteenth year of Judah’s King Jehoshaphat and reigned 12 years.

    Immediately after king Joram began to reign (2 Kings 1), Elijah was taken up in the whirlwind (2 Kings 2). We know this not only because of the order of the book of 2nd Kings (chapter 2 comes after chapter 1) but also because it's confirmed in chapter 3 that Elisha is the new prophet.

    11 But Jehoshaphat said, “Isn’t there a prophet of the Lord here? Let’s inquire of Yahweh through him.” One of the servants of the king of Israel answered, “Elisha son of Shaphat, who used to pour water on Elijah’s hands, is here.”

    Elisha had picked up the mantle (literally) when Elijah was taken by the whirlwind.

    2 Kings 2:13
    Elisha picked up the mantle that had fallen off Elijah and went back and stood on the bank of the Jordan.

    Five years into the reign of King Joram of Israel (and five years after the whirlwind), a new king began his reign in Judah (in place of Jehosophat). This King's name was Jeroham.

    2 Kings 8:16
    In the fifth year of Joram son of Ahab king of Israel, when Jehoshaphat was king of Judah, Jehoram son of Jehoshaphat began his reign as king of Judah.

    Now this next verse is the key. One of the things he did as King was to kill his brothers so that they couldn't claim the throne.

    2 Chronicles 21:4
    When Jehoram had established himself over his father’s kingdom, he strengthened his position by killing with the sword all his brothers as well as some of the princes of Israel.

    2 Chronicles 21:12-15
    Jehoram received a letter from Elijah the prophet, which said:

    “This is what the Lord, the God of your father David, says: ‘You have not followed the ways of your father Jehoshaphat or of Asa king of Judah. 13 But you have followed the ways of the kings of Israel, and you have led Judah and the people of Jerusalem to prostitute themselves, just as the house of Ahab did. You have also murdered your own brothers, members of your own family, men who were better than you. 14 So now the Lord is about to strike your people, your sons, your wives and everything that is yours, with a heavy blow. 15 You yourself will be very ill with a lingering disease of the bowels, until the disease causes your bowels to come out.’”

    The letter proves that Elijah was alive after king Jehoram of Israel killed his own brothers, and that happened five years after king Joram of Judah began to reign, which is exactly when Elijah was taken up in the whirlwind.

    Bottom line, Elijah survived the whirlwind.
     
  9. Freedm

    Freedm Well-Known Member

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    DELETE
     
  10. Freedm

    Freedm Well-Known Member

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    I have a question for you. What you say here makes perfect sense, except in one way. 1 Corinthians 15 also tells us that Jesus reigns until death is put under his feet, which implies that death still exists all throughout his thousand year reign.

    So if death has now been put under his feet, does that mean the thousand years has ended? And if the thousand years has not ended, how do we reconcile that with 1 Corinthians 15:56?
     
  11. ralliann

    ralliann christian

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    Now that is interesting. Thank you
     
  12. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

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    Sure. Like I said in the article I posted. The Greek language is like the English language where the same words mean different things depending on the context of the sentences. In the context of that verse resurrection is being used illustratively to describe those who are redeemed\ saved in the promised age that was to come.

    just like Paul uses it illustratively when he says in Colossians 2:12
    having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.
     
  13. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

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    As much as I hate to say this. That is a gross misinterpretation of those passages. Even the translators did violence to this verses.

    23 But each in the own order: Christ the firstfruit, then those of Christ at His coming, 24 then the end, when He shall hand over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He shall have annulled all dominion, and all authority and power. 25 For it behooves Him to reign until He shall have put all the enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy to be abolished is death. 27 For “He has put in subjection all things under His feet.” But when it may be said that all things have been put in subjection, it is evident that the One having put in subjection all things to Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things shall have been put in subjection to Him, then also the Son Himself will be put in subjection to the One having put in subjection all things to Him, so that God may be all in all. These verses are not to be disconnected from one another. Paul is using a literary device common in scripture. Saying the same thing different ways in hope of getting the reader to think and understand what is being said. The end in verse 24 is the cross. The cross and his resurrection is the end of verse 23's advent of the messiah. That is where he handed the kingdom over to God and the father. After he annulled and rendered powerless all earthly dominion and authority! Now verses 23-24 are repeated and enlarged on in verses 25-28. Jesus came as king. The enemies he reigned over, that were put in subjection to him under his feet were thus: Mobs of angry people. The elements, he had power to change them or create them. He reigned over the animal kingdom. He had complete power over sickness , disease, disabilities. He ruled over demons and their effects on the humans. He reigned over death. He had authority over the earth, the wind, the sea. He had power over human government and their soldiers. John 16: 33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. The Greek definition for the word overcome here is to conquer and prevail over. It implies a battle and subduing ones opponents. Here is a small list of examples of his rule over everything in the Gospels. Looking at that list and realizing that is but a small example of the things that occurred in the Gospels. It becomes quite clear that Jesus ruled over every aspect of the natural world. There was nothing left outside of his authority. Everything was put in subjection under his feet. The last enemy to be abolished, verse 26, was death. That is a direct reference to his resurrection. Verse 27 explains that everything that exists was put in subjection to him by God the Father, with the exception of God the Father. So verse 28 is a repeat of verse 24. Jesus handed the kingdom over to God the Father and put himself in subjection to him in the Garden of Gethsemane. Hebrews 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; 8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Why did he do all this? The end of verse 28 says. That God may be all in all. Or like Hebrews 5: says. That he would be the author of eternal salvation to all that obey him.
     
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  14. Freedm

    Freedm Well-Known Member

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    So I just want to make sure I'm understanding you correctly. Are you saying that simply having faith in Christ raises you from the dead, figuratively speaking? Or are you saying that having faith in Christ guarantees us an instant resurrection to heaven when our bodies die? Or both?
     
  15. Freedm

    Freedm Well-Known Member

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    So this makes sense in a way, but Revelation tells us that Jesus is to reign for a "a thousand years", and 1 Corinthians 15 tells us that his reign ends when he conquers death. Are you saying that the thousand years ended at the cross? Or am I completely misunderstanding you?
     
  16. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

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    I’m saying this. The rules in the reading and writing of literature are not suspended in the reading and understanding of scripture. Even more so. In the western world. Our rules for the reading and writing of literature came from the Bible as it is the basis of our civilization. Paul is using the words risen with Christ figuratively to explain the reality of the Christian experience. That is also the way it is being used in Revelation 19. You can see in scripture 5 different ways the words resurrection, rise and risen are used to describe different things.

    Now the last part of your question addresses the doctrine of resurrection. Which is a doctrine Jesus and Paul taught that is a doctrine in opposition to all the things the world believes about dying. Like reincarnation, soul sleep, materialism ( which is what the Sadducees believed.) And many such other pagan beliefs. The doctrine of ressurection is a doctrine of simple life after death in a physical body. Not physical as we know physical. But physical none the less. When we die we step out of these bodies on two feet. We see with two eyes and hear with two ears snd speak with a mouth and tongue. Our spirit is a person. It’s the true man in the inside of a shell of flesh and blood. It has form. When this shell dies we go to our eternal destination. Heaven or hell as a person, a spirit just like the angels who have form. That immediate life after the death of this flesh body is the resurrection of life or the resurrection of damnation.

    now when the Bible uses the term resurrection to talk about a dead body being brought back to life like Lazuris or Jesus. That’s not what I’m calling the doctrine of resurrection. That’s the word resurrection being used to describe something different. In this case the restoration of dead flesh snd blood bodies.
     
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  17. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

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    I’m what I call a scriptualist. What I mean by that is that there is no such thing as understanding the Bible’s prophecy unless the Bible interprets that prophecy for us.
    The only way around that rule is if that prophecy is contained within the scope of a prophecy already interpreted. Then at least one has a clue as to where to look for a proper interpretation.
    The reason most Christians focus so much on Revelation 20 and the thousand years is because there is no interpretation of it given. They can speculate in perpetuity on the meaning of the thousand years.

    I have this book sized article on end time prophecy that I spend doing little else than showing where the interpretations of the Bible’s prophecy are in the Bible. It’s supernaturally precise and there is no arguing over the meaning or literal or figurative once you locate the Bible’s interpretation. Once you find those interpretations. You soon learn that the thousand years is not a time period. Because that would completely disagree with prophecy clearly interpreted.

    So in that article I skip Revelation 20 and go straight to chapter 21-22. Then go back to chapter 20. Why? Because 21-22 are among the most interpreted prophecy in the Bible. Dozens of chapters of interpretation. Once people see that and trust me it is the easiest thing in the world to see once it is pointed out. Then Revelation 20 can be discussed in a whole different light. Because it cannot be what people think of it.

    I said all that to say. You can’t base anything about the doctrine of resurrection on revelation 20.
    If you have time tomorrow. Check this article out. It’s completely different in nature than the one I wrote on resurrection. It’s about 3 chapters in Isaiah. It will blow your mind guaranteed. It will forever change the way you see the Bible’s prophecy. It’s a small article and easy to read. The Bride of Christ
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2020
  18. Freedm

    Freedm Well-Known Member

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    o.k. so you're basically describing life after death and calling it a resurrection, which makes sense to me. Now considering all the people who lived before Christ and slept in the earth, they would've all had to have been resurrected together (I'm presuming in 70 AD) and I believe this was described in Daniel chapter 12. Would you agree?

    If so, then would you consider our current reality of immediate life after death an extension of that same resurrection, and would you consider this the first resurrection mentioned in Revelation 20?
     
  19. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

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    No, there is no such thing all the dead bodies in the world being resurrected. Dead bodies being resurrected here and there. People being raptured here and there are special miracles with a purpose that have nothing to do with the fact that everyone that has died is alive and in heaven or hell. And the fact that they are alive now is the doctrine of the resurrection.
     
  20. Freedm

    Freedm Well-Known Member

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    Are you saying that this immediate resurrection after death has been the norm since Adam? Because I don't believe that's what scripture teaches, and if that's what you're saying when you say "there's no such thing as all the dead bodies in the world being resurrected" then there would be a discussion to have, but perhaps we're misunderstanding each other. I was not asking if all the dead in 70 AD were physically resurrected in our current realm with their old bodies. I meant that they were resurrected to eternal life or eternal damnation in spiritual bodies. After all, Daniel 12 tells us that "at that time" there would be such a resurrection.
     
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