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The Partial Preterist Believers Safe House

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by 1disciple, Apr 15, 2013.

  1. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

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    Absolutely saying that this immediate resurrection has been the norm since Adam. How could it be different? We are talking about the basic building blocks of all living things. That doesn’t change nor will it ever.
    1st Peter 3 19in which also having gone, He preached to the spirits in prison 20at one time having disobeyed, when the longsuffering of God was waiting in thedays of Noah,
    These people are alive. Jesus called the fact they are alive. The resurrection in the scriptures I shared already. Spirits don’t die. Else there would be no place called hell to have to house them. They are separated from the life of God but they are alive and have the form of human beings. That is the story of the rich man and Lazarus. Jesus said: There was a poor man named Lazurus. Past tense. That is the doctrine of the resurrection.
    Daniel 12:2 is using the word resurrection illustratively. We already have spiritual bodies. We are in. Shell of flesh and blood bodies. There is nothing to “resurrect” in that sense.
     
  2. Freedm

    Freedm Well-Known Member

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    I will have to disagree with you on that, as the old testament is full of descriptions regarding what happens to us when we die. Granted, this may have changed in the kingdom age, but in the old covenant age it seems indisputable.

    Genesis 3:19
    By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”

    Job 7:21
    Why then do you not pardon my transgression and take away my iniquity? For now I will lie down in the dust; And You will seek me, but I will not be."

    Job 14:10:12
    But man dies and lies prostrate man expires, and where is he? "As water evaporates from the sea, and a river becomes parched and dried up, so man lies down and does not rise. Until the heavens are no longer, he will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep.

    Psalm 115:17
    The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence.

    Psalm 146:4
    When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.

    Ecclesiastes 3:19-20
    For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return.

    Ecclesiastes 9:5
    For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing

    Over and over again the Bible tells us that the dead know nothing but only lie prostrate in the dust. That is literally the opposite of what you're claiming. If we go straight to heaven upon death, then we certainly don't lie prostrate in the dust, nor can it be said that we know nothing or praise not the Lord.

    Perhaps your understanding is missing something, as mine is.
     
  3. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

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    Old Testament is just partial light. That was its dispensation. Partial light. God didn’t speak to them in full light. Jesus is the light and came to bring us full light on issues such as these. That is why the people were astonished when Jesus said the patriarchs are alive, already resurrected. Who do you think all those people were Peter said were being held in prison? He said who they were you know. Your trying to fit the Bible’s doctrines into a false narrative of Bible Prophecy. A tradition of Bible prophecy. It cannot be done and you will forever remain confused on the issue until you junk what you think Bible prophecy teaches.
     
  4. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

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    Old Testament is just partial light. That was its dispensation. Partial light. God didn’t speak to them in full light. Jesus is the light and came to bring us full light on issues such as these. That is why the people were astonished when Jesus said the patriarchs are alive, already resurrected. Who do you think all those people were Peter said were being held in prison? He said who they were you know. Your trying to fit the Bible’s doctrines into a false narrative of Bible Prophecy. A tradition of Bible prophecy. It cannot be done and you will forever remain confused on the issue until you junk what you think Bible prophecy teaches.
     
  5. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    The Law foreshadowed Christ


    colossians 2:16-17 Therefore let no one judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a feast, a New Moon, or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the body that casts it belongs to Christ.

    Hebrews 10:1 For the law is only a shadow of the good things to come, not the realities themselves

    God spoke to the prophets of Israel in dreams, visions, and riddles.

    numbers 12:6-8 He said, “Hear now My words: If there is a prophet among you, I, the LORD, will reveal Myself to him in a vision; I will speak to him in a dream. But this is not so with My servant Moses;
    he is faithful in all My house.a I speak with him face to face, clearly and not in riddles; he sees the form of the LORD.

    Hosea 12:10 spoke through the prophets and multiplied their visions; I gave parables through the prophets.

    Jesus is the fulfillment of the Law AND the parables/visions/dreams/riddles of the prophets

    matthew 5:17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them

    Luke 24:44-45 Jesus said to them, “These are the words I spoke to you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about Me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms.” Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures

    Jesus never stated the patriarchs were already resurrected.

    The context is the belief of the saducees. The Saducees rejected the resurrection, while the Pharisees believed in it. The saducees only studied from the law, while the Pharisees studied the law and prophets. The Pharisees believed the prophets taught of the future resurrection, however, since the saducees did not study the prophets, they rejected the idea of the resurrection.

    When the saducees attempted to trick Jesus he quotes from the law, the only part of scriptures they studied, in order to prove the resurrection of the dead. This is what astonished the people.


    Matthew 22:29-33 But Jesus answered them, “You are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God: ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.” And when the crowd heard it, they were astonished at his teaching.
     
  6. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

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    I don’t think so. He used the word resurrection to describe the fact that they were alive. Already passed into the next life. Had he wanted to convey the idea that there is life after death to a bunch of materialists. He would not have used the words the resurrection of the dead to do so.
    And then your ignoring the fact that he says we will be like the angels. The angels are spirits. Plain and simple. And angels have spiritual bodies. Plain and simple. People ideas about this subject are not coming from a proper apprehension of scripture or reality. Their ideas are about it are coming from ignorant and carnal readings of Bible prophecy.
     
  7. Freedm

    Freedm Well-Known Member

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    If you're now arguing that the writers of the old testament didn't know what they were talking about, then you and I are only getting further and further apart.
     
  8. Freedm

    Freedm Well-Known Member

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    That makes a lot of sense.
     
  9. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

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    Strange then how in the Old Testament. All sickness and disease was “sent by God.”

    But in the New. It is attributed to Satan. Acts10:38 Jesus from Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all those being oppressed by the devil, because God was with Him.

    And yes. To be more blunt. All those scriptures you shared said everyone that is dead ceases to exist. Basically soul sleep which is heresy. Yet in the New Testament . As per the scriptures I shared. Moses and Elijah are talking to Jesus on the mount of configuration. Jesus said the patriarchs are not dead. Lazarus is with Abraham who is alive and speaks to the rich man who is alive in hell. Peter says Jesus, before his body was resurrected was at a prison preaching to the spirits who perished in the flood. ( Means Jesus wasn’t dead in some kind of soul sleep before his body was resurrected.)
    Pail says to be absent from our bodies is to be present with the Lord. James says without the human spirit the body is dead.
    So again. If Some Old Testament writers thought when your body died you died. Then they did not have the faintest idea what they were talking about.

    Besides not all OT writers said that. Only some. Y’all think when Paul says in the twinkling of the eye. We shall all be changed. That he is talking about a rapture. No silly. He’s talking about. In the twinkling of an eye. You’ll step out of this mortal flesh and blood body in your immortal spiritual body.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2020
  10. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    Do you understand why the saduccees didn't believe in the resurrection, while the Pharisees did?

    I disagree with your interpretation that believes Jesus meant the patriarchs were already resurrected. According to the NT, the resurrection was to occur at the parousia of Christ.

    1 Corinthians 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.

    1 thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

    To teach that the dead were already resurrected prior to the parousia of Christ, is to be in agreement with Hymenaeus and Philetus.

    2 timothy 2:17-18 and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have swerved from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already happened. They are upsetting the faith of some.
     
  11. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

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    I’m sorry. The scriptures I keep sharing defy your understanding of the subject. Moses and Elijah, one buried one raptured, but both standing there talking to Jesus on the mount of configuration. Lazurus with Abraham and the rich man in hell. Jesus declaring that the patriarchs were alive. Peter telling us that Jesus preached to the people (spirits) who perished in the flood before the resurrection of his body. Jesus telling us that we will be a like the angels that Hebrews declares are spirits. John was talking to one of those people and thought he was an angel.
    “And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.”
    ‭‭Revelation‬ ‭22:8-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬
    Revelation 22:8-9 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: | King James Version (KJV) | Download The Bible App Now


    Of course I know what the Sadducees were, materialists.

    And of course what Hymenaeus and Philitus taught would over throw the faith of anyone who believes like you do. That the resurrection is a one or two time event. If it’s past you missed the boat. But that is not what the doctrine of the resurrection is. A doctrine of an event were the molecules left of dead bodies become bodies again in a mass event. It is not an event. The resurrection of life and damnation is past to those who died. Present for those who died right now and future to those who will die. The fact that we continue on and step right out of this shell of flesh and blood in a spiritual body once this flesh body does IS THE DOCTRINE OF THE RESURRECTION.
     
  12. Freedm

    Freedm Well-Known Member

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    Slightly off topic, but just as a point of interest, Elijah was not raptured and scripture proves it.
     
  13. Freedm

    Freedm Well-Known Member

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    If you see new testament verses that appear to contradict the verses of the old testament, then the typical and prudent response is to try to reconcile the two so that you can come to greater understanding, but you seem willing and even eager to simply throw away the old testament teachings as "heresy" without even an attempt to reconcile. Is that really the best approach? Is it not possible, and in fact likely, but both the old and new testament are accurate in their descriptions of death?
     
  14. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

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    I’m not calling OT statements heresy. I’m calling the doctrine of soul sleep heresy. As far as the OT statements. They had partial light. So just like when they say God have somebody some sickness or disease in the OT. I understand that God was not fully revealing reality to them and that reality would come when Jesus came. It’s why we have the whole Bible. The Bible is inspired by God. That does not mean every statement in it taken on its own is truth. Truth is ascertained by the whole Bible and that Bible says certain things. Actually quite a few things were not fully revealed in the OT. Like this. Different subject but same issue of things not being fully revealed.
    “Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;”
    ‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭3:4-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬
    Ephesians 3:4-5 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets b | King James Version (KJV) | Download The Bible App Now
     
  15. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

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    Does it now. What about Phillip. And before you answer. Break out that Greek dictionary.
     
  16. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    That was a vision

    Matthew 17:9 As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus commanded them, “Do not tell anyone about this vision until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead.”

    That was parable.

    Jesus did not declare the patriarchs had been resurrected. He used a passage from the torah as a proof text that the dead do rise contrary to the beliefs of the Saducees.

    Right, the spirits in prison who perished in the flood are not the resurrection.

    agreed. The NT is the reality, while the OT was a shadow, ultimately pointing to the reality.

    That is an assumption on your part. The scriptures do not declare that.

    Sure.


    Correct, those who teach that the resurrection of the dead is prior to the parousia of Christ, have deviated from the truth.

    2 timothy 2:17-18 and the talk of such men will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have deviated from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already occurred, and they undermine the faith of some.

    The NT is clear, Christ is the first of the resurrection of the dead, the rest at His coming.

    Colossians 1:18 And He is the head of the body, the church; He is the beginning and firstborn from among the dead, so that in all things He may have preeminence

    1 Corinthians 15:23 But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him.

    just a little tidbit about me. I'm a preterist that believes the parousia of Christ upon Israel occurred in 66-70ad with the destruction of Jerusalem. I believe it is from that point on that the dead in Christ "rise" to heaven to forever be with the Lord.


     
  17. Freedm

    Freedm Well-Known Member

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    Yes, the Bible proves that Elijah was still alive and on earth writing letters five years after the whirlwind. Now who is this Phillip you speak of, and why do you bring him up?
     
  18. Freedm

    Freedm Well-Known Member

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    So then how do you define what you call "soul sleep"?

    The Bible says that the dead know nothing and that we are dust and to dust we shall return. It also describes death as "sleeping with their fathers". So if you this is what you call "soul sleep" then you're claiming the actual words of the OT to be a heresy.
     
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  19. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

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    ???? The Bible proves Elijah was still on earth writing letters after his catching away????

    Where would that be? In some fakery like the apocryphal books?

    Phillip the evangelist.
     
  20. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

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    YeI showed you multiple verses where they are not “sleeping.”
    “By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.”
    ‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭3:19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

    Either the Bible is contradicting itself and therefore not the Word of God. Or. You are grossly misreading it.
     
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