Do you believe in the “caught up together” event in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17?

fwGod said:

I'm not familiar with such a statement.
You don't recognize any actual Biblical exegesis because you've been trained to only see eisogesis as right. Therefore your skewed opinion has no basis.

I doubt that anything I say will change your strawman. After this discussion is over you'll still say to the next pretribber what you've already said to me. That all pretribbers are wrong.

At least in that you'd be consistent.

The forum does not allow overly long posts so pick out one of your points and repost it for me to answer.

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Stop avoiding the issues, it does nothing to advance your doctrine. It shows that your rapture beliefs cannot abide biblical scrutiny.

fwGod said:

Sorry Charlie but I'm not taking your bait.
That is so obviously not true. The verse you gave is not the only text that speaks of 7 years.

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He said that is the only text in the NEW TESTAMENT that speaks of 7 years, which is true. I hope you read the Bible more carefully than you read his post.

The third coming- as I've said for now the third time.. I don't see that in scripture so your mentioning it must be because you copy/paste from your pre-pared notes and don't even bother to delete the third coming when you post to me.

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You do believe that the following passages speak of 2 different events, don't you?

Your doctrine's second coming:

1 Thess 4:14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Your doctrine's third coming:

Matthew 24:29 “Immediately after the distress of those days ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.' 30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

robycop3 said:

Please read post # 555.

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2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

So, even though Paul clearly equated paradise with the third heaven in this passage, you're just going to ignore that. I see.

robycop3 said:

Well, no trial came upon the whole earth while that church existed, and those in it who received the letter are long-dead. But the souls of all the Christians in it are now in paradise & their trials are over forever.

But remember, Jesus' words to all those churches apply to their types today, as all those types exist now. So, the true saints will be kept from the trib, except for the 144K Israelis, the 2 special witnesses, & those who come to Jesus during the trib.

And it's obvious that hour of trial will be the trib.

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So, you're saying that even though Jesus was addressing those people in the 1st century church of Philadelphia specifically, His message was not for them at all. I see. And you think that makes sense. Okay. I couldn't disagree more.

I highly recommend that you read post #560 carefully so that you learn something about the history of the Christian church and what it went through in the 1st century.

Do you interpret the following to be speaking of a future time of tribulation just as you do Revelation 3:10?

Revelation 2:8 “To the angel of the church in Smyrna write: These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again. 9 I know your afflictions and your poverty—yet you are rich! I know about the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. 10 Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you life as your victor’s crown. 11 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who is victorious will not be hurt at all by the second death.

Was this message for the first century church of Smyrna or for the church as a whole in the future? I know that we can learn things from what was written in Revelation 2 and 3 still today, but that doesn't mean we can ignore the fact that these messages were addressed to the actual 1st century churches that existed in the province of Asia.

And beyond all of that, why would anyone need to be taken off of the earth to avoid a future tribulation period, anyway? Please explain that in detail. Other than the final wrath that comes down by way of fire upon the entire earth on the day Christ returns (2 Peter 3:3-12), I see no reason that believers would need to be taken off of the earth before then.

Timtofly said:

I agree with the term sleep, but Lazarus went to Heaven in body, and not back to Abraham's bosom in physical death. He could only die once and be resurrected once. That is the first resurrection. It cannot happen twice. It is only appointed to die once.

What you fail to see is the first resurrection is bodily, and the soul goes from a tent to a permanent building instantly, because all in Christ have the first resurrection. Even us, we have just not exercised the point, because it is a one way experience. It cannot be reversed, like one cannot re-enter their mother's womb.

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The Lazarus of Luke 16 (which is not the same one of John 11 & 12), died and it was his spirit/soul that was taken to Paradise, not his flesh body.

Luke 16:22 says the rich man also died, and was buried. That points back to Lazarus' flesh died and was buried also.

So your argument that the Lazarus poor beggar was the same one of John 11 & 12 is a false assumption. There is no Scripture indication that the beggar Lazarus of Luke 16 was raised from the dead.

sovereigngrace said:

Revelation 3:7-13: “And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.”

Firstly, you are butchering the text to support your false teaching.

• There is no mention of the Church (as the collective body of Christ) here. You force that into the text.
• There is no mention of a rapture in Revelation 3:10. You force that into the text.
• There is no mention of a 7-year tribulation in Revelation 3:10. You force that into the text.
• There is no mention of a 3rd coming in Revelation 3:10. You force that into the text.

That is the end of the debate. You have nothing here!

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First, the trib won't last 7 years. Its allotted time is only 3.5 years, & Jesus said that'd be cut short. The AC's reign will last 7 years, but the trib won't begin til at least 3.5 years of his reign are past.

Secondly, you make Christ out to be a liar. According to what you have been taught, He promised the Philadelphians a rapture to heaven to preserve them from undergoing a 7-years trib as a reward for their faithfulness, but, failed to carry through. They all went to the grave, without experiencing this.

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OK, then, please show us where an hour of trial came on the whole world that the Philly church was kept from ! Since Jesus doesn't lie, then Rev. 3:10, which Jesus has preserved to this day, must pertain to another group.

If a rapture was indeed the actual reward for this early church’s faithfulness, then, why did they not experience it? After all, they are commended for being obedience and faithfulness. You cannot divorce the reward from the obedience that earned the reward here. Pretribs say the reward is the rapture. Well: did the Philadelphians receive this reward? Evidently not; neither will they. That particular local church is long gone, and they will not be raptured at the second coming in the future but rather resurrected (as the dead in Christ). But the resurrection is nothing particular to Philadelphians; it is an event that every single church in Revelation would one day experience. It is something that all the dead in Christ will enjoy. But none experienced a rapture 2,000 years ago.

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And there was no trial that came upon the whole earth between then & now.

Thirdly, if one is to read this portion of Scripture in its most straight-forward and literal way it seems clear that this is specifically speaking to the local church in Philadelphia (Asia Minor) in A.D. 96. There is no way you would naturally relate it to some end-time global Church prior to the coming of the Lord.

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Why not? It's clear the event didn't happen while the Philly church existed.

You totally negate the relevance of this passage to the literal Philadelphian Church 2000 years ago, who are long gone. You conveniently divert that promise to the Church generally before the coming of Christ to support your doctrine. This is twisting Scripture. This is wrong and done because you have nothing to support your teaching in the Book.

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Once again, please show us where the "trial" event occurred !

Fourthly, you do not just err in your understanding of God's Word, you also show an ignorance of history. There was heavy persecution of the early Church throughout the known world where the Roman Empire ruled and reigned.

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I'm much-more familiar with that history than you apparently are. The closer the churches were to the city of Rome, the worse the persecution was, depending upon who was Caesar at a given time.

Pretrib seems to ignore the severity of the hour the seven churches in Asia Minor found themselves in. The Church was being assaulted on all sides – both secularly and religiously. On one side the Roman Empire was on a vicious unrelenting campaign of genocide to obliterate the Gospel witness. The severity of the persecution depended on the area each church was located and the attitude of those enforcing the turmoil. Countless believers throughout the world were being destroyed under the jackboot of Rome. In a religious side-show the Jews were resisting the Church at every step.

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ACTUALLY, the Romans weren't all-that-concerned about Christians, & they'd learned that the quickest way to have a Jewish rebellion was to mess with their religion. But they DID allow the Jews to "police" their own religious matters within their communities. Acts 12 is a good example. remember, the early Christians often sequestered themselves FOR FEAR OF THE JEWS. And the farther from Jerusalem the Christians were, the less the persecution from the Jews; persecution of gentile Christian congregations by the Jews was almost-nil. among the gentiles. And the Roman empire was not the whole world !

The same persecution that the Philadelphian church was to be protected from was the very same trial that the church at Smyrna would have to endure. The Lord said to the church at Smyrna in Revelation 2:10, reference the approaching first century trial, “Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.”

Why do Dispensationalists not apply this passage to the entire Church at the end? Remember Smyrna was specifically told that it would go through a period of distinct tribulation. It seems like Pretrib cherry picks a church out of the 7 that suits its theology and then places it in an end-time scenario. The reason is that this message does not fit the carefully constructed Pretrib paradigm. The message to the Philadelphia church (and the Pretrib interpretation of the same) suits their paradigm.

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Actually, the only persecution of the Smyrna church, altho it was poor, was the burning at the stake of Polycarp, Christian bishop of Smyrna, at age 86, at the insistence of the Jews. (There was a large Jewish community in Smyrna.) Today, Smyrna is the large Turkish city of Izmir, & while it's 99% Muslim, most of them have renounced the current activities of Sunni & Shiite Muslims & treat Christians as brethren. There are about 500 people professing to be Christians in Izmir, with 12 small congregations, all of them poor. (Izmir is much-larger than old Smyrna) So, there's plenty of room for persecution by the AC when he comes.

Fifthly, the Philadelphian Christians are promised protection “from the hour of temptation” on the expressed grounds of their ongoing obedience to God.

Preservation in the midst of trial is a common promise for faithful believers throughout all time. Whilst God’s people have experienced awful persecution through time, it has often been God’s heart in scriptural times and Church history to preserve His elect people in the midst of adversity rather than remove them from it. We see that throughout Scripture.

“keep (tēreō) them from (ek) the evil” (John 17:15)
“keep (tēreō) thee from (ek) the hour of temptation” (Revelation 3:10)

In fact, these are the only two places in Scripture that the Greek words tēreō and ek are found together. Not only do these two passages not teach an escape for the Church from this world, but Christ plainly and succinctly proclaims the contrary. Whatever “the hour of temptation” represented to the Philadelphian church they knew that they would be sheltered from its awful throes. There is no indication that they anticipated that blessing to involve being beamed out of the Roman Empire.

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Once again, as Jesus doesn't lie, there'll be an hour of trial that'll come upon the whole world. Obviously, it hasn't yet occurred. So, it MUST be in the future.

Simple fact is, history & reality prove your invented scenario false.

Spiritual Jew said:

So, you're saying that even though Jesus was addressing those people in the 1st century church of Philadelphia specifically, His message was not for them at all. I see. And you think that makes sense. Okay. I couldn't disagree more.

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So go ahead & disagree, but please show us when the hour of trial came upon the whole world.

I highly recommend that you read post #560 carefully so that you learn something about the history of the Christian church and what it went through in the 1st century.

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My answer in in #566 below.

Do you interpret the following to be speaking of a future time of tribulation just as you do Revelation 3:10?

Revelation 2:8 “To the angel of the church in Smyrna write: These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again. 9 I know your afflictions and your poverty—yet you are rich! I know about the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. 10 Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you life as your victor’s crown. 11 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who is victorious will not be hurt at all by the second death.

Was this message for the first century church of Smyrna or for the church as a whole in the future? I know that we can learn things from what was written in Revelation 2 and 3 still today, but that doesn't mean we can ignore the fact that these messages were addressed to the actual 1st century churches that existed in the province of Asia.

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That's also in post #566.

And beyond all of that, why would anyone need to be taken off of the earth to avoid a future tribulation period, anyway? Please explain that in detail. Other than the final wrath that comes down by way of fire upon the entire earth on the day Christ returns (2 Peter 3:3-12), I see no reason that believers would need to be taken off of the earth before then.

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Because Jesus said they would be.

Davy said:

The Lazarus of Luke 16 (which is not the same one of John 11 & 12), died and it was his spirit/soul that was taken to Paradise, not his flesh body.

Luke 16:22 says the rich man also died, and was buried. That points back to Lazarus' flesh died and was buried also.

So your argument that the Lazarus poor beggar was the same one of John 11 & 12 is a false assumption. There is no Scripture indication that the beggar Lazarus of Luke 16 was raised from the dead.

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Lazarus was a quite-common Jewish male surname in that time, almost as common as Judas/Jude.

robycop3 said:

Actually, the only persecution of the Smyrna church, altho it was poor, was the burning at the stake of Polycarp, Christian bishop of Smyrna, at age 86, at the insistence of the Jews. (There was a large Jewish community in Smyrna.) Today, Smyrna is the large Turkish city of Izmir, & while it's 99% Muslim, most of them have renounced the current activities of Sunni & Shiite Muslims & treat Christians as brethren. There are about 500 people professing to be Christians in Izmir, with 12 small congregations, all of them poor. (Izmir is much-larger than old Smyrna) So, there's plenty of room for persecution by the AC when he comes.

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Are you saying that you believe what Jesus told the church of Smyrna would happen to them never actually happened, which would make Jesus a liar?

Revelation 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive; 9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. 10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Verse 8 makes it abundantly clear that this message was written directly to the first century "church in Smyrna". Jesus said "I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty". Do you actually think He wasn't referring to the works, tribulation and poverty of the people of the church in Smyrna there?

He also said "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, the ye may be tried". Do you actually think He was not telling the people of the church in Smyrna to not fear the things they would suffer because of the devil casting some of them into prison where they would be tried (tested)?

robycop3 said:

Because Jesus said they would be.

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Where in Revelation 3:10 did Jesus say anyone would be taken off of the earth? To be kept from tribulation clearly has nothing to do with being taken off of the earth as evidenced by this verse:

John 17:15 15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

Your interpretation of Revelation 3:10 makes a mockery out of what Jesus prayed for in John 17:15.

Which part of Revelation 3:7-10, which was written "to the angel of the church in Philadelphia" do you think actually applies to the first century church in Philadelphia?

robycop3 said:

First, the trib won't last 7 years. Its allotted time is only 3.5 years, & Jesus said that'd be cut short. The AC's reign will last 7 years, but the trib won't begin til at least 3.5 years of his reign are past.

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You are totally missing the point. Whether you think it is 7 years or 3.5 year makes no difference. It is not taught here or anywhere else. You force it into the text. Pretrib does this because they have no proof-text. They force their preconceived doctrine into the sacred text.

So:

• There is no mention of the Church (as the collective body of Christ) here. You force that into the text.
• There is no mention of a rapture in Revelation 3:10. You force that into the text.
• There is no mention of a 3.5 year or 7 years tribulation in Revelation 3:10. You force that into the text.
• There is no mention of a 3rd coming in Revelation 3:10. You force that into the text.

That is the end of the debate. You have nothing here!

OK, then, please show us where an hour of trial came on the whole world that the Philly church was kept from ! Since Jesus doesn't lie, then Rev. 3:10, which Jesus has preserved to this day, must pertain to another group.


And there was no trial that came upon the whole earth between then & now.


Why not? It's clear the event didn't happen while the Philly church existed.


Once again, please show us where the "trial" event occurred !


I'm much-more familiar with that history than you apparently are. The closer the churches were to the city of Rome, the worse the persecution was, depending upon who was Caesar at a given time.


ACTUALLY, the Romans weren't all-that-concerned about Christians, & they'd learned that the quickest way to have a Jewish rebellion was to mess with their religion. But they DID allow the Jews to "police" their own religious matters within their communities. Acts 12 is a good example. remember, the early Christians often sequestered themselves FOR FEAR OF THE JEWS. And the farther from Jerusalem the Christians were, the less the persecution from the Jews; persecution of gentile Christian congregations by the Jews was almost-nil. among the gentiles. And the Roman empire was not the whole world !



Actually, the only persecution of the Smyrna church, altho it was poor, was the burning at the stake of Polycarp, Christian bishop of Smyrna, at age 86, at the insistence of the Jews. (There was a large Jewish community in Smyrna.) Today, Smyrna is the large Turkish city of Izmir, & while it's 99% Muslim, most of them have renounced the current activities of Sunni & Shiite Muslims & treat Christians as brethren. There are about 500 people professing to be Christians in Izmir, with 12 small congregations, all of them poor. (Izmir is much-larger than old Smyrna) So, there's plenty of room for persecution by the AC when he comes.



Once again, as Jesus doesn't lie, there'll be an hour of trial that'll come upon the whole world. Obviously, it hasn't yet occurred. So, it MUST be in the future.

Simple fact is, history & reality prove your invented scenario false.

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Read history. Read Foxes Book of Martyrs. You will quickly discover that the early Church spread throughout the Roman world was under notable and sustained persecution.

What is noticeable is what you avoided. All my salient points. You have obviously no answer to them because they expose the Pretrib false teaching.

Spiritual Jew said:

He said that is the only text in the NEW TESTAMENT that speaks of 7 years, which is true.

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The only way that text in Luke would be relevant is if the OP topic was about marriage, and widowhood.

But the topic of the OP is about being "caught up" from 1 Thes.4:17. Therefore regardless of the marriage lasting 7 years, it's still erroneous to mention it AND claim that it's the only place in the new testament that speaks of a 7 year event.

Both of you are conveniently ignoring the new testament book of Revelation which is an extensive detail of the 70th week of Daniel.. a week being seven days, the original text indicating a week of years which amounts to 7 years. A prophetic topic.

While the marriage, widowhood text is not a prophetic topic. So it's apparent that neither of you can actually read your Bibles in an exegetic manner in order to gain some relevant understanding.

You do believe that the following passages speak of 2 different events, don't you?

Your doctrine's second coming:

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It is mine in that it is not yours of the Amil theology. However it is not mine as if to say that it isn't in the Bible. The pertinent Bible text(s) clearly reveal that aside from the birth of Jesus there are two comings.. that of 1 Thes.2:1, 4:17 (a first coming), and that of Rev.19:11-13, 16 (a second coming). Therefore has developed the theological term "Second Coming" of Christ which the disciples asked Jesus. "When shall be the sign of Your coming, and the end of the age?" (Mat.24:3).

Since you give the scripture text below I am curious if you are like sovereigngrace says he is.. formerly of the pretrib rapture belief because below you post it, but then again since it is not of the second coming, but of the first.. I would have to conclude that you have never been formerly pretrib in your theology.

I do wander then why you post it since you don't include any comments to indicate how you interpret the text.
Could it be that in spite of not believing it you still attempt to teach to a pretrib rapture student what is already known of, and more than you know of it..?

1 Thess 4:14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord,

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The enlarged portion is I take it your misinterpretation because the text doesn't indicate that it refers to the second coming.

will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven,

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Again, to the enlarged portion.. Yes he does because Jesus has been in heaven ever since he ascended as recorded in Acts 1:9-11.

with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

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Really. The same text was already featured in one of sovereigngrace's posts to me. You two are like peas in a pod.

Your doctrine's third coming:

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Nope. As I've indicated to sovereigngrace on three occasions in three different posts.. I don't see any scripture to support the third coming that apparently someone else has at one time shared during a prior discussion with you or s.g.

The scripture text that you provide below is a reference to the second coming.

Matthew 24:29 “Immediately after the distress of those days ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'

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The similar text in Revelation can be found in Rev.6:12-13.

30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

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The event is in Rev.19:11-16.

31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

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That is regarding a means of angelic assisted translation as was done with Philip Acts.8:39.. or by conventional transportation of the elect which at His Coming are located in different nations all over the world. The text can refer to a use of airplanes.. as was historically done to transport the discovered descendants of Israel who had lived in Africa to Israel to live.

For the Jews they have been for some years making the call for Jews living in other nations to return to Israel or at least come to Israel to make an Aliya. It was also done on the day of Pentecost as recorded in Acts 2:5-11.

There are those who mistakenly suppose that verse 31 is referring to a rapture but it clearly isn't for the word rapture with it's correct surrounding text implies a quick removal from the confines of the earth and to heaven. But, such an idea is not possible to conclude when reading it correctly.

sovereigngrace said:

Stop avoiding the issues, it does nothing to advance your doctrine. It shows that your rapture beliefs cannot abide biblical scrutiny.

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That is a strawman fallacy. Not only that but there is no rule or law that obligates me to answering any of your posts. And certainly not when you use that tone.

Another thing. How could you post such a very long post to me and not know that the forum has limitations concerning how long a post can be? Therefore I am well within my rights to require of you to repost a shorter version.

Since that is what I said, then there is no evidence for you to assume that I'm avoiding any issues.

Either you engage respectfully to me in any further posts to me or this discussion is over right now.

Spiritual Jew said:

Are you saying that you believe what Jesus told the church of Smyrna would happen to them never actually happened, which would make Jesus a liar?

Revelation 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive; 9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. 10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Verse 8 makes it abundantly clear that this message was written directly to the first century "church in Smyrna". Jesus said "I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty". Do you actually think He wasn't referring to the works, tribulation and poverty of the people of the church in Smyrna there?

He also said "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, the ye may be tried". Do you actually think He was not telling the people of the church in Smyrna to not fear the things they would suffer because of the devil casting some of them into prison where they would be tried (tested)?

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Please show us from a reliable, unbiased work of history where it happened. Otherwise, it's still a future event.

Spiritual Jew said:

Where in Revelation 3:10 did Jesus say anyone would be taken off of the earth? To be kept from tribulation clearly has nothing to do with being taken off of the earth as evidenced by this verse:

John 17:15 15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

Your interpretation of Revelation 3:10 makes a mockery out of what Jesus prayed for in John 17:15.

Which part of Revelation 3:7-10, which was written "to the angel of the church in Philadelphia" do you think actually applies to the first century church in Philadelphia?

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Again, please show us from a reliable, unbiased work of history when it happened.

To answer your question, Jesus' commendation applied to that church at that time.

sovereigngrace said:

You are totally missing the point. Whether you think it is 7 years or 3.5 year makes no difference. It is not taught here or anywhere else. You force it into the text. Pretrib does this because they have no proof-text. They force their preconceived doctrine into the sacred text.

So:

• There is no mention of the Church (as the collective body of Christ) here. You force that into the text.
• There is no mention of a rapture in Revelation 3:10. You force that into the text.
• There is no mention of a 3.5 year or 7 years tribulation in Revelation 3:10. You force that into the text.
• There is no mention of a 3rd coming in Revelation 3:10. You force that into the text.

That is the end of the debate. You have nothing here!




Read history. Read Foxes Book of Martyrs. You will quickly discover that the early Church spread throughout the Roman world was under notable and sustained persecution.

What is noticeable is what you avoided. All my salient points. You have obviously no answer to them because they expose the Pretrib false teaching.

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You avoid answering the question asking when the hour of trial came upon the whole world. The Roman empire was not nearly the whole world.

And the rapture is not a "coming". Jesus will call us to Him, not Him come down to us. His actual return to the earth comes later.

robycop3 said:

Lazarus was a quite-common Jewish male surname in that time, almost as common as Judas/Jude.

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Yep!

robycop3 said:

You avoid answering the question asking when the hour of trial came upon the whole world. The Roman empire was not nearly the whole world.

And the rapture is not a "coming". Jesus will call us to Him, not Him come down to us. His actual return to the earth comes later.

Click to expand...

Non-Dispy commentators are in wholesale agreement that this refers to the persecution of the Romans against the growing early church, which become a threat to the Roman Empire. Read about the persecution under Nero, Domitian and Trajan and you will see what we are talking about.

The main issue s: you have still not addressed any of my points that challenge the Pretrib understanding of Rev 3:10. The fact is, you have nothing in the text. It is all in your head. You have this Pretrib paradigm in your mind, but zero Scripture to support it. That is why you cannot address any of the points Amils are presenting. That is classic Pretrib. It is extra-biblical. Pretribbers must wing it.

(1) There is no mention of the Church (as the collective body of Christ) here. You force that into the text. There is no mention of a rapture in Revelation 3:10. You force that into the text. There is no mention of a 7-year tribulation in Revelation 3:10. You force that into the text. There is no mention of a 3rd coming in Revelation 3:10. You force that into the text.

(2) Pretrib makes Christ out to be a liar because he never kept His promise to the Philadelphian church.

(3) The Philadelphian church were promised protection in not removal from the Roman persecution.

The Pretribulation interpretation of the word as ‘to remove or take away’ is shown to be totally untenable. It butchers the literal meaning of the word. It gives it a connotation that cannot in any way fit with its usage elsewhere in Scripture. In fact, it forces it to mean the opposite to what it actually means. Applying the Pretrib meaning to other texts that use the same word ends up changing the whole meaning and sense of multiple Scriptures. In fact, many end up saying the opposite to what they are actually saying. Let us look at some examples.

Contrasts

To highlight the irrational and nonsensical nature of Pretrib hermeneutics. We need to apply their mistaken interpretation to other passages that carry the same Greek word.

Matthew 19:17 reads: “Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, (tēreō) keep the commandments.”

Pretrib would have Matthew 19:17 read: “Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, (tēreō) remove or take away the commandments.”

This would be absurd. It expresses the opposite meaning to what is intended.

John 8:51 reads: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man (tēreō) keep my saying, he shall never see death.”

Pretrib would have John 8:51 read: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man (tēreō) remove or take away my saying, he shall never see death.”

John 15:10-20 reads: “If ye (tēreō) keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have (tēreō) kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love … Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have (tēreō) kept my saying, they will (tēreō) keep yours also.”

Pretrib would have John 15:10-20 read: “If ye (tēreō) remove or take away my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have (tēreō) removed or taken away my Father's commandments, and abide in his love … Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have (tēreō) removed or taken away my saying, they will (tēreō) remove or take away yours also.”

Ephesians 4:3 reads: “Endeavouring to (tēreō) keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.”

Pretrib would have Ephesians 4:3 read: “Endeavouring (tēreō) to remove or take away the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.”

Philippians 4:7 reads: “And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall (tēreō) keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.”

Pretrib would have Philippians 4:7 read: “And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall (tēreō) remove or take away your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.”

2 Timothy 1:12 reads: “For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able (teros) to keep that which I have committed unto him
against that day.”

Pretrib would have 2 Timothy 1:12 read: “For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able (tēreō) to remove or take away that which I have committed unto him against that day.

Jude 1:24 reads: “Now unto him that is able (tēreō) to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy.”

Pretrib would have Jude 1:24 read: “Now unto him that is able (tēreō) to remove or take away you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy.”

Conclusion

Pretrib butchers the actual meaning of the Greek word under discussion and attributed the opposite meaning to what it indicates.

sovereigngrace said:

Non-Dispy commentators are in wholesale agreement that this refers to the persecution of the Romans against the growing early church, which become a threat to the Roman Empire. Read about the persecution under Nero, Domitian and Trajan and you will see what we are talking about.

Click to expand...

I've read quite a few, and again, the farther from the city of Rome the Christians were, the less the persecution by the Romans was. The greatest persecutions came from the Orthodox Jews, against Jewish Christians. (They didn't dare persecute gentiles who may be Roman citizens.)

The main issue: you have still not addressed any of my points that challenge the Pretrib understanding of Rev 3:10. The fact is, you have nothing in the text. It is all in your head. You have this Pretrib paradigm in your mind, but zero Scripture to support it. That is why you cannot address any of the points Amils are presenting. That is classic Pretrib. It is extra-biblical. Pretribbers must wing it.

Click to expand...

You evidently must think God's gonna allow millions of His saints who were saved before the trib to undergo the worst disasters in history & die in any number of miserable ways. You evidently don't believe Jesus will keep them from this "trial" as He said. Only time will tell if you're right or Jesus is right.

(1) There is no mention of the Church (as the collective body of Christ) here. You force that into the text. There is no mention of a rapture in Revelation 3:10. You force that into the text. There is no mention of a 7-year tribulation in Revelation 3:10. You force that into the text. There is no mention of a 3rd coming in Revelation 3:10. You force that into the text.

Click to expand...

Any saint is a member of Jesus' Church. The rapture is the obvious way He will keep them outta the "trial". The hour of trial will certainly be the trib as it'll come upon the whole world. It'll be a temptation as well for one to take the marka the beast & come under his "protection". And there'll be only one more coming, when Jesus returns to rule the world. The rapture won't be a coming, but a CALLING. Jesus will call us to Him, not Him coming down to us.

(2) Pretrib makes Christ out to be a liar because he never kept His promise to the Philadelphian church.

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That's cuz it's still future. Can you show us in a reliable, unbiased work of history WHEN Jesus carried out His promise? if not, YOU'RE the liar here.

(3) The Philadelphian church were promised protection in not removal from the Roman persecution.

Click to expand...

The Romans weren't persecuting them at the time, nor did they. And who's to truthfully say Jesus won't carry out His promise to the church at Alashehir, which is the ancient Philadelphia? Or for His entire Church ?

The Pretribulation interpretation of the word as ‘to remove or take away’ is shown to be totally untenable. It butchers the literal meaning of the word. It gives it a connotation that cannot in any way fit with its usage elsewhere in Scripture. In fact, it forces it to mean the opposite to what it actually means. Applying the Pretrib meaning to other texts that use the same word ends up changing the whole meaning and sense of multiple Scriptures. In fact, many end up saying the opposite to what they are actually saying. Let us look at some examples.

Contrasts

To highlight the irrational and nonsensical nature of Pretrib hermeneutics. We need to apply their mistaken interpretation to other passages that carry the same Greek word.

Matthew 19:17 reads: “Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, (tēreō) keep the commandments.”

Pretrib would have Matthew 19:17 read: “Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, (tēreō) remove or take away the commandments.”

This would be absurd. It expresses the opposite meaning to what is intended.

John 8:51 reads: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man (tēreō) keep my saying, he shall never see death.”

Pretrib would have John 8:51 read: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man (tēreō) remove or take away my saying, he shall never see death.”

John 15:10-20 reads: “If ye (tēreō) keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have (tēreō) kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love … Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have (tēreō) kept my saying, they will (tēreō) keep yours also.”

Pretrib would have John 15:10-20 read: “If ye (tēreō) remove or take away my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have (tēreō) removed or taken away my Father's commandments, and abide in his love … Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have (tēreō) removed or taken away my saying, they will (tēreō) remove or take away yours also.”

Ephesians 4:3 reads: “Endeavouring to (tēreō) keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.”

Pretrib would have Ephesians 4:3 read: “Endeavouring (tēreō) to remove or take away the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.”

Philippians 4:7 reads: “And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall (tēreō) keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.”

Pretrib would have Philippians 4:7 read: “And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall (tēreō) remove or take away your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.”

2 Timothy 1:12 reads: “For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able (teros) to keep that which I have committed unto him
against that day.”

Pretrib would have 2 Timothy 1:12 read: “For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able (tēreō) to remove or take away that which I have committed unto him against that day.

Jude 1:24 reads: “Now unto him that is able (tēreō) to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy.”

Pretrib would have Jude 1:24 read: “Now unto him that is able (tēreō) to remove or take away you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy.”

Conclusion

Pretrib butchers the actual meaning of the Greek word under discussion and attributed the opposite meaning to what it indicates.

Click to expand...

Holler til yer lips turn blue, but you're afraid to address the fact that the "trial/temptation" hasn't yet come. And NONE of us can be sure HOW Jesus will keep the Philadelphia church or His whole Church from it. You simply CANNOT rule out the translation. (rapture). It's DEFINITELY gonna happen; OUR job is to prepare as many as possible for it by steering them to Jesus, that they might be saved in case they're alive when it occurs.

And remember, for eacha us, the return of Jesus is no farther than THE NEXT HEARTBEAT !

robycop3 said:

I've read quite a few, and again, the farther from the city of Rome the Christians were, the less the persecution by the Romans was. The greatest persecutions came from the Orthodox Jews, against Jewish Christians. (They didn't dare persecute gentiles who may be Roman citizens.)


You evidently must think God's gonna allow millions of His saints who were saved before the trib to undergo the worst disasters in history & die in any number of miserable ways. You evidently don't believe Jesus will keep them from this "trial" as He said. Only time will tell if you're right or Jesus is right.


Any saint is a member of Jesus' Church. The rapture is the obvious way He will keep them outta the "trial". The hour of trial will certainly be the trib as it'll come upon the whole world. It'll be a temptation as well for one to take the marka the beast & come under his "protection". And there'll be only one more coming, when Jesus returns to rule the world. The rapture won't be a coming, but a CALLING. Jesus will call us to Him, not Him coming down to us.


That's cuz it's still future. Can you show us in a reliable, unbiased work of history WHEN Jesus carried out His promise? if not, YOU'RE the liar here.


The Romans weren't persecuting them at the time, nor did they. And who's to truthfully say Jesus won't carry out His promise to the church at Alashehir, which is the ancient Philadelphia? Or for His entire Church ?



Holler til yer lips turn blue, but you're afraid to address the fact that the "trial/temptation" hasn't yet come. And NONE of us can be sure HOW Jesus will keep the Philadelphia church or His whole Church from it. You simply CANNOT rule out the translation. (rapture). It's DEFINITELY gonna happen; OUR job is to prepare as many as possible for it by steering them to Jesus, that they might be saved in case they're alive when it occurs.

And remember, for eacha us, the return of Jesus is no farther than THE NEXT HEARTBEAT !

Click to expand...

Avoidance is the Pretrib MO in discussion forums over this past 20 years. That is why it is crumbling. They have no response to the Book. That is why many of us have abandoned it. Your repeated avoidance of numerous Scriptures, arguments and points reinforces why Pretrib should be rejected by all Bible believing Christians.

It is the Book that forbids your doctrine. You do not have one single proof text. Your butchering of Rev 3:10 highlights this.

I refer you back to multiple posts to you that you have skipped around. Address the sacred text please!