Do you believe in the “caught up together” event in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17?

Spiritual Jew said:

It's not called the second coming in any verse.

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Hebrew 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Spiritual Jew said:

I mentioned 1 Thess 5 specifically. That wasn't enough? Did you not read it? It's only 9 verses. Okay, fine, I'll do your work for you.

1 Thess 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

You wouldn't try to deny that the sudden destruction from which they shall not escape is not referring to unbelievers being killed, would you?

The day of the Lord is the day Christ returns. 1 Thess 4:13-5:9 is one narrative about one event, the second coming of Christ, and not two separate events at two completely different times. On that day believers will be caught up and gathered to Him and unbelievers will all be killed.

Notice that Paul said the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night. That's the same thing Jesus Himself said about His second coming.

Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

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I would because the symbolism is giving birth. When a woman brings a baby into the world what is destroyed?

The destruction at the Second Coming is Satan's deception being destroyed. The sky is rolled back like a theater curtain opening for the next scene. The continents and mountains are going to be arranged differently, and the current map is going to be destroyed. Humanity will desire to be killed in this event, obviously, but will not. This is not a day of human death. It is the birth of the church for one thing. It will be whole, glorified, and complete. It will leave earth for Paradise. Although the majority will already be there. The church that has been growing and groaning for 6000 years will finally be birthed. There were almost 2 billion people killed in the trouble with Death and sheol walking around starting wars, famine, more covid, and wild animals killing humanity. Unless you think the seals happen within seconds of each other and it is the same event, one is forced to spread these events out over time. The Trumpets are different because this time a 3rd of humanity dies. It goes from a fourth to a third, and if the Thunders stay in mathematical steps, a half of humanity will die. It goes from 8 billion to 6 billion, to 4 billion to 2 billion left. If God is consistent with 1/4, 1/3, 1/2. That is 2 billion in each event. How the church leaves figures into that, although, there is sheep leaving in the Trumpets, and wheat leaving in the Thunders. What percentage is what would be hard to estimate. If revivals broke out before the 6th seal, it would not change the math, there would just be less humanity for Satan's 42 months. That is why the church, not leaving first does not make sense. You claim all will be dead in seconds. How is that different than the church leaving first? All humans left will be killed, just not all at once.

jeffweedaman said:

No
What gave you that idea?

Can somebody answer my question

jeffweedaman said: ↑
What did Jesus say about the Pretrib gathering to himself? Chapter and verse please.

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You are going to have to define this trib, because any return will be after all the tribulation of those days, because tribulation is nonstop. The 6th seal is after the 4th seal tribulation. It is still before the next set of judgments from God. So what is your trib and why are God's judgments your trib, it has to come after? God has come to earth. Is that not enough of a major Second Coming event to you? Revelation 6 happens before Revelation 8 can start. That is chapters with many verses to prove the point. Those who claim recap see it happening from different views. How is 1/4 people dying the same event as 1/3 people dying in totally different ways. There are 3 events, Seals, Trumpets, and Thunders. That is it for the Second Coming with God and the Lamb on the earth. Any other "view" is that of the battle of Armageddon. The battle of Armageddon is not the 6th Seal, and is not the 7th Thunder. It is the 7th vial and that happens while the 7th Trumpet is still sounding. Paul says the rapture happens at all the above, because it is tied to the Second Coming. The Second Coming starts at the 6th Seal and is celebrated as completed with the 7th Trumpet. All the other Trumpets and Thunders are the Second Coming. God and the Lamb are on the earth.

People claim John did not understand his own chronology, and fix John. John does not need to be fixed, period. Theology needs to be trashed, and Scripture has to agree with Scripture without twisting it to fit some human concocted theology, that has to deny or spiritualize other Scripture into private interpretation. Private interpretation is still wrong, even if 1000 literal people accepted it. Or if 2 billion people accepted private interpretation, it is still wrong. They will be sent to the lake of fire.

Spiritual Jew said:

You are mistaken. You are completely missing the context of that verse. That verse is saying that David did not ascend BODILY to heaven like Jesus did because "he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day" (Acts 2:29). Where is your discernment? Our souls go to be with the Lord in heaven when we die.

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David's soul did not go to heaven when he died. How does David get into Paradise from Abraham's bosom? Jesus says His voice calls them bodily out of the grave. He proved that by resurrecting Lazarus even prior to the Cross. The Cross itself was the call for all to bodily leave Abraham's bosom. Paradise could once again be entered into and enjoyed bodily. That is the only reason Paradise was opened after being banned to Adam and his descendants. Otherwise souls would still be left in Abraham's bosom. The sting of death in bodily form is the first resurrection type. That of a permanent, incorruptible body. There is not a second resurrection of the spirit found any where in Scripture, because the spirit is not dead. Our spirit is waiting for us with God. When God comes to earth in the 6th Seal, we are rejoined with our spirit. That is John's symbolism of the 5th Seal. All those in Paradise put on their robe of white.

Paul says we put on a new body, and then put on our spirit around the new body. Some are either too literal on certain symbolism, or make symbolism say something it does not. The whole 1st century was viewed and written to, as martyred souls. They did not have the freedom and liberty of modern government with the separation of church and state. Many many in the church were not martyred, but they will still be glorified, just like any alive and remain who were not martyred. They are just changed, which even those martyred were instantly changed at death the same as those dying peacefully in their sleep.

Douggg said:

Hebrew 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

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We were talking about the reference to "the coming of the Lord" in 1 Thess 4:15 and you said it didn't refer to the second coming in that verse. My point was that it doesn't say "second coming" in any of the verses that refer to His coming (that ones that use the word "coming" as in "the coming of the Lord" or "the coming of the Son of man" is what I meant). Such as "the coming of the Son of man" in Matthew 24:31. That doesn't say "second coming" and yet we both would agree it's referring to the second coming.

So, if the coming of the Son of man in Matthew 24:31 is the second coming then why is "the coming of the Lord" in 1 Thess 4:15 not also a reference to His second coming? See my point now?

By the way, which of your 2 future comings of Christ do you believe Hebrews 9:28 is referring to? The one mentioned in 1 Thess 4:15 or the one mentioned in Matt 24:30? If 1 Thess 4:15 then I guess you believe the coming of the Son of man in Matt 24:30 is when you believe He will appear the third time.

Timtofly said:

David's soul did not go to heaven when he died. How does David get into Paradise from Abraham's bosom? Jesus says His voice calls them bodily out of the grave. He proved that by resurrecting Lazarus even prior to the Cross. The Cross itself was the call for all to bodily leave Abraham's bosom. Paradise could once again be entered into and enjoyed bodily. That is the only reason Paradise was opened after being banned to Adam and his descendants. Otherwise souls would still be left in Abraham's bosom. The sting of death in bodily form is the first resurrection type. That of a permanent, incorruptible body. There is not a second resurrection of the spirit found any where in Scripture, because the spirit is not dead. Our spirit is waiting for us with God. When God comes to earth in the 6th Seal, we are rejoined with our spirit. That is John's symbolism of the 5th Seal. All those in Paradise put on their robe of white.

Paul says we put on a new body, and then put on our spirit around the new body. Some are either too literal on certain symbolism, or make symbolism say something it does not. The whole 1st century was viewed and written to, as martyred souls. They did not have the freedom and liberty of modern government with the separation of church and state. Many many in the church were not martyred, but they will still be glorified, just like any alive and remain who were not martyred. They are just changed, which even those martyred were instantly changed at death the same as those dying peacefully in their sleep.

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David's soul is in paradise (the third heaven) now along with the souls of all other believers who are physically dead. His body is still in the grave. No one has their immortal bodies yet except for Christ. The bodies of dead believers will be resurrected and changed and those who are still alive will also have their bodies changed to be immortal at the last trumpet when Christ returns (1 Cor 15:22-23,51-54).

Spiritual Jew said:

So, if the coming of the Son of man in Matthew 24:31 is the second coming then why is "the coming of the Lord" in 1 Thess 4:15 not also a reference to His second coming? See my point now?

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Matthew 24:30a is the sixth seal event.

Matthew 24:30b is Jesus's second coming to planet earth to end the great tribulation, and bring the Kingdom of God to rule over all the nations of the earth which he will reign and rule here on earth for a thousand years.

Matthew 24:31 is the completion of the gathering of the Jews out of the nations back to the land of Israel, at the beginning of the millennium.

Revelation 20:4-6 is the resurrection of the martyred great tribulation saints, also at the beginning of the millennium.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 is Jesus coming for believers, the rapture, to take them from the earth, so that they don't have to go through the wrath to be poured out during the great tribulation and Satan's wrath as his kingdom overshadowing the earth is being dismantled, and all of the hardships thereof. And is not Jesus's second coming at the end of the seven year, 70th week, of Matthew 24:30b.

The season which all those things are going to happen is this generation, the parable of the fig tree generation.

Spiritual Jew said:

By the way, which of your 2 future comings of Christ do you believe Hebrews 9:28 is referring to? The one mentioned in 1 Thess 4:15 or the one mentioned in Matt 24:30? If 1 Thess 4:15 then I guess you believe the coming of the Son of man in Matt 24:30 is when you believe He will appear the third time.

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Hebrews 9:28 is to the Jews who will be rescued, saved, from the persecution of Satan, the beast, the false prophet, and them doing their work. Jesus appeared to the Jews at his first coming, and will appear to the Jews again at his second coming, in power and glory. This time they will be eagerly awaiting Him saying blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord. Matthew 23:39.



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Douggg said:

Hebrews 9:28 is to the Jews who will be rescued, saved, from the persecution of Satan, the beast, the false prophet, and them doing their work. Jesus appeared to the Jews at his first coming, and will appear to the Jews again at his second coming, in power and glory. This time they will be eagerly awaiting Him saying blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord. Matthew 23:39.

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In the passage below the Apostle Paul kills the idea that a large number of Orthodox Jews will be saved at the Second Coming of Christ.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.


Jesus says something similar in the parable of the virgins from Matthew 25.
They must be ready before the bridegroom arrives.

The modern Church has done a pitiful job of sharing the Gospel with Orthodox Jews at least partially due to this error.
Dual Covenant Theology based on race, is a direct result of the Two Peoples of God doctrine.
It ignores what Paul said about genealogies in Titus 3:9, and also ignores what he said in Galatians 1:6-9.

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BABerean2 said:

he modern Church has done a pitiful job of sharing the Gospel with Orthodox Jews at least partially due to this error.
Dual Covenant Theology based on race, is a direct result of the Two Peoples of God doctrine.
It ignores what Paul said about genealogies in Titus 3:9, and also ignores what he said in Galatians 1:6-9.

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Replacement theology came out of the covenant and new covenant movements. Because the Reformers saw the Pope/Papacy as the Antichrist - but because there was no Israel in their day, which so many of the prophecies about the Antichrist and Israel being at the same time - they had to justify their view by making the church Israel, and Christians - the Jews.

BABerean2 said:

In the passage below the Apostle Paul kills the idea that a large number of Orthodox Jews will be saved at the Second Coming of Christ.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and

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The Jews will be believers in Jesus at the second coming. 2 Thessalonians 1:7 does not indicate the Jews will not be saved at the second coming. The Jews aren't even mentioned in that chapter.

Douggg said:

But not to stand on the Mt of Olives.

And it is not called the second coming in that verse.

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There is only one coming, which sees the rescue of all the elect and the destruction of all the wicked.

Douggg said:

The Jews will be believers in Jesus at the second coming. 2 Thessalonians 1:7 does not indicate the Jews will not be saved at the second coming. The Jews aren't even mentioned in that chapter.

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Not so. The elect are taken out in the twinkling of an eye (1/20 of a second). No time to repent.

sovereigngrace said:

There is only one coming, which sees the rescue of all the elect and the destruction of all the wicked.

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It says coming a second time in Hebrews 9:28.

sovereigngrace said:

Not so. The elect are taken out in the twinkling of an eye (1/20 of a second). No time to repent.

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The elect in Matthew 24:31 is talking about the Jews.

BABerean2 said:

Based on Revelation 1:20, and the passage I quoted, stars are not angels.

However, stars are a symbol of angels in the Book of Revelation.

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I don't recall anywhere that I referred to angels as stars.

sovereigngrace said:

You are playing with words. Both occur. Stop fighting with Scripture.

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Christ is "the Lord" it's interchangeable and not "playing with words".

Have you not heard "Lord Jesus Christ".. there you have three titles that He holds.

BABerean2 said:

Based on Revelation 1:20, and the passage I quoted, stars are not angels.

However, stars are a symbol of angels in the Book of Revelation.

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Stars are not reality. Angels are. Star is the symbolic name of an angel. But the angel is real, not the symbolic name of star. There are no stars, just angels that shine like stars.

Yes there are huge chunks of ice and dirt in the sky. They fall to earth on occasion.

Douggg said:

Matthew 24:30a is the sixth seal event.

Matthew 24:30b is Jesus's second coming to planet earth to end the great tribulation, and bring the Kingdom of God to rule over all the nations of the earth which he will reign and rule here on earth for a thousand years.

Matthew 24:31 is the completion of the gathering of the Jews out of the nations back to the land of Israel, at the beginning of the millennium.

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The elect only refer to believers, both Jew and Gentile, and not to all Jews. You are not letting scripture interpret scripture for you.

Colossians 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. 12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

Scripture teaches that the elect are all of those who are in Christ, whether Jew or Gentile.

There is no basis whatsoever for thinking that Matthew 24:29-31 is not referring to the same event as 1 Thess 4:13-5:9.

Revelation 20:4-6 is the resurrection of the martyred great tribulation saints, also at the beginning of the millennium.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 is Jesus coming for believers, the rapture, to take them from the earth, so that they don't have to go through the wrath to be poured out during the great tribulation and Satan's wrath as his kingdom overshadowing the earth is being dismantled, and all of the hardships thereof.

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If you see "the resurrection of the martyred great tribulation saints, also at the beginning of the millennium" as being the first resurrection then what about the resurrection that you think occurs before that when the rapture occurs? This is a major hole in your doctrine. You have "the first resurrection" occurring after a previous resurrection. How can that be?

Also, look what it says about those who have part in the first resurrection.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

So, you believe this only applies to "martyred great tribulation saints"? So, does that mean you believe that the dead in Christ raised at the coming of the Lord and those who are alive and remain at the time (1 Thess 4:14-17) don't get to reign with Christ and will not be "priests of God and of Christ"?

If so, what do you make of this passage:

Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

How can it be that only martyred trib saints would reign with Christ as priests of God and of Christ when in this passage John said that Jesus, "the prince of the kings of the earth", had already made him and his fellow believers "kings and priests unto God and his Father"? Doesn't this make it clear that all believers reign with Christ and are "priests of God and of Christ"?

Shouldn't we allow scripture to interpret scripture here and see that Jesus has been reigning a long time already and that His followers have been "priests of God and of Christ" this whole time? I believe so.

Hebrews 9:28 is to the Jews who will be rescued, saved, from the persecution of Satan, the beast, the false prophet, and them doing their work. Jesus appeared to the Jews at his first coming, and will appear to the Jews again at his second coming, in power and glory. This time they will be eagerly awaiting Him saying blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord. Matthew 23:39.

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There are many problems with this interpretation, but one of those would be the fact that, in your doctrine, Jesus appearing at His second coming after the tribulation is Him appearing a third time rather than a second time. So, your doctrine contradicts Hebrews 9:28 in that way and a number of other ways as well.

One of the other ways that your interpretation of Hebrews 9:28 contradicts scripture is the fact that God is not a respecter of persons and salvation is not based on one's ethnicity or nationality. Your interpretation of Hebrews 9:28 makes salvation about one's ethnicity and nationality and that contradicts God's character of not being a respecter of persons.

Timtofly said:

Stars are not reality. Angels are. Star is the symbolic name of an angel. But the angel is real, not the symbolic name of star. There are no stars, just angels that shine like stars.

Yes there are huge chunks of ice and dirt in the sky. They fall to earth on occasion.

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How did you come to believe the ridiculous things that you believe such as what you said here that "stars are not reality", and your belief that the earth is flat, and your belief that angels are physical beings? Do you come up with these things all on your own or were you taught these things?

Douggg said:

The Jews will be believers in Jesus at the second coming. 2 Thessalonians 1:7 does not indicate the Jews will not be saved at the second coming. The Jews aren't even mentioned in that chapter.

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Why would a reference to "those who do not know God, and obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" not include unbelieving Jews?

Do you think Jesus will delay His wrath when He comes and will just kind of hang out for awhile inviting Jews "who do not know God, and obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" to be saved instead of taking vengeance on them as Paul says He will? If so, why would He not do the same for unbelieving Gentiles? Do you believe that God is a respecter of persons despite the fact that scripture repeatedly says that He is not?