Revelation cannot be a future-timeline because the world keeps ending in it!

eclipsenow · Oct 31, 2020

BABerean2 said:
In Galatians 4:24-31 Paul reveals a city "above", which is our "mother."

Wow - that's amazing in the context of wondering what happened to the Land promises in the OT!
Oh, and it appears the Apostle Paul himself had no problem interpreting - with the guidance of the Holy Spirit no less - the OT 'spiritually' or figuratively! :oldthumbsup:

"Galations 4:
24 These things are being taken figuratively: The women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. 27 For it is written:

“Be glad, barren woman,
you who never bore a child;
shout for joy and cry aloud,
you who were never in labor;
because more are the children of the desolate woman
than of her who has a husband.”

28 Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 At that time the son born according to the flesh persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. 30 But what does Scripture say? “Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.” 31 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman."

So while Millennials go on about how we must expect promises about the literal Jerusalem today Paul himself just calls that city 'slavery' - and only the Jerusalem above is free.

We find the same in Hebrews 11:15-16, and Hebrews 12:22-24, and Revelation 3:12.

Hebrews is great isn't it? So clear! To be a Christian is to already in the city that matters. (Already a citizen of heaven, now citizens, but not yet revealed.)

Hebrews 12
22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

Heavenly Jerusalem is a real place, in the same way that Christ now resides in a real place. He went somewhere after His ascension.
He has built us a new house out of two pieces of wood and a handful of nails.

Yes - but indescribable. Also, in his resurrection Jesus kept his body as a first-fruits of the new reality that is coming where heaven and earth are fused together. How that works 'in heaven' now - with a physical body - kind of weirds me out. Real physicality taken up into the meta-spiritual reality - but it's the promise.

I do not pretend to understand how the New Heavens and the New Earth will replace this rotten, sin-cursed world, but that is what I understand the Bible to say in 2 Peter 3:10-13.

2 PETER 3
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

So good! Make every effort to enter that rest / land / city. Amen.

keras · Oct 31, 2020

eclipsenow said:
Amen and amen.

One sermon a day, is enough!
I could post plenty of Bible verses that specifically refer to the holy Land.
God gave it all to Abraham, for his descendants. His actual descendants never did take full control of all the area from the Nile to the Euphrates. Genesis 15:18
Now; some of Abrahams descendants occupy a small part of it, but are not now the people of God. Matthew 21:43

Galatians 3:26-29 and other scriptures plainly tell us that all Christians are the spiritual descendants of Abraham. WE are, therefore; the inheritors of the holy Land, Ephesians 3-6, Romans 9:24-26
We will be the people that God always wanted there, but has never yet had. His witness's and His Light to the nations. John 15:27, Matthew 5:14-16

Andrewn · Nov 1, 2020

chad kincham said:
You claim the early church was amil, yet the early church, particularly Barnabus, taught the sabbath-millennium doctrine, which is that God took six days to create the world, and rested on the 7th day, as a prophetical timeline of having six thousand years from the first Adam, to the return of the last Adam (Jesus), with the millennium being the sabbath rest for God’s people, or 7th day, using the fact that to God a day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years is as a day.

That is not teaching amillennialism, that’s teaching a millennium after 6 thousand years.

Early Chiliasts were Amillennialists who believed in an earthly, rather than a heavenly, Kingdom after the resurrection. OTOH, modern Premills believe in a period of 1000 years in which both resurrected and unglorified people inhabit the earth and end up rebelling against Christ, again!!! You can't show me these beliefs in the early Church.

chad kincham said:
That’s why after the last trump is blown in revelation, the ark of the covenant appears in the heavenly temple, indicating the time of the gentiles is over, and the time of Jacob’s trouble has begun.

BABerean2 said:
In Galatians 4:24-31 Paul reveals a city "above", which is our "mother." It is a real place. We find the same in Hebrews 11:15-16, and Hebrews 12:22-24, and Revelation 3:12.

Heavenly Jerusalem is the Victorious Church, our mother, and add that the ark was seen by theologians such as the Church Fathers and Thomas Aquinas as personified by Jesus Christ.

Gal 4:26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free. She is our mother.

Rev 3:12 The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will never leave it again. I will also write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God—the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God—and my new name.

Timtofly · Nov 1, 2020

eclipsenow said:
Except that Judgement Day / Jesus Returning / the Day of God's Wrath all keeps happening throughout the whole book! So why isn't this 3.5 years mentioned after the seals, trumpets, etc? Because those chapters of Revelation are focussing on another theme at that moment - it's not a timetable, it's a symbolic sermon encouraging us to be steadfast whatever comes our way.

In the most symbolic book in the bible, numbers are also symbolic.
7 = perfection, the fullness of time, God's control over history. Jesus having 7 eyes and 7 horns = perfect knowledge and perfect power.

3.5 means a limited time or short period. These bad things will break out now and then but in God's mercy he limits the time in which this judgement is handed out. It's the difference between knowing there will be wars and rumours of wars, and having a full scale major powers war like WW2 drag on forever. In ratio (half of 7) and use in the text (short patches of calamity) - it is as symbolic as all the rest of the numbers. There's just nothing literal about it.

12 being the tribes of Israel, and 12 * 12 = 144 being the tribes multiplied by the Apostles multiplied by "a gazillion" (1000) - see below.

1000 being 'a very large number, a gazillion' - Psalm 50 - "for every animal of the forest is mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills." (If the thousand here is literal, what about the other 999,000 of the 'million' hills on earth? See what I did with a million there? 1000 can be literal when it's counting something specific like the number of soldiers going into battle or treasure or something else specific - but is never like that with descriptions of God's view of time. EG: 2 Peter 3 discusses how God can both see the whole gazillion years of history, or zoom in on one moment as if he had a gazillion years to study that moment - like an individual praying to him. In the context of the passage it makes NO sense to demand that it is some sort of end times Enigma Code or Rosetta Stone!)

6 being the number of man (the day we were created on, the days of the week we work.)

Chicken little kept claiming the world was ending over and over again. It was hard for him to prove any thing. Was he a futurist?

eclipsenow said:
The reality according to Amil Doctrine is we just don't know. Futurists should deal with it.

Futurist knowing is the wrong approach. You do not know, because it has not happened yet. You are a Futurist in theory, if not in practice. At least a Futurist knows one thing. Most of prophecy is future, except for what Christ already fulfilled. Claiming it is all fulfilled is the preterist view. Not the futurist view. We do not know when it is going to happen. Realist have to point out this creation can not last more than 8000 years. No one remembers the first 1000, and Amil deny and reject the age to come, which is the last 1000 years.

Timtofly · Nov 1, 2020

eclipsenow said:
No you don't - you believe metaphors literally. Bad reading is not going to help you understand reality.
There's a difference between the spiritual realities described to us in metaphor, and using poor hermeneutics like using the OT to interpret the NT (when it's the other way around) or using the unclear to interpret the clear (when it's the other way around).

THE CITY IN REVELATION
The NT shows us God expands his kingdom out into all the world. The irony is because the various Millennial futurists read Revelation literally, they think the dimensions of the Heavenly Jerusalem are literal - and therefore arbitrary. They're just those dimensions.... because! To them it i literal writing - therefore it's just a fact that the New Jerusalem is that big. It's just arbitrary. It's just data. But this is not good enough. It's the most metaphorical book in the bible, and includes Jesus portrayed as a lamb with 7 eyes and 7 horns! It's not literal, it's metaphor. In other words - the city size means something!
Basically, 12,000 stadia is the number of God's people - 12, times a thousand which is like us modern people saying 'a gazillion'. It's the complete number. It's saying the city will be big enough to house all of God's people. It's also about the same dimensions as the whole known world back then. Take a map of the world from any Roman emperor and it's the same size. God's city for God's people will cover the whole land. The whole world is God's!

And there you go again. There's a difference between the spiritual realities described to us in metaphor, and using poor hermeneutics like using the OT to interpret the NT (when it's the other way around) or using the unclear to interpret the clear (when it's the other way around).

WHAT ABOUT THE LAND and CITY and TEMPLE PROMISES IN THE OLD TESTAMENT?
We cannot ignore the essentially spiritual nature of the OT prophets themselves. Amongst the sometimes strange imagery and apocalyptic language, it is clear that they saw that God's new super-temple will not be possible without his people being given a new child, a new sacrifice, a new saviour, a new heart, a new covenant, a new nation, and a new city that operates like a giant new temple. That is, the 'land' promises are often sketched out in terms of a larger, more idealised Holy Land than was ever owned by Israel even under king David. But in the context of all these other more apocalyptic and spiritual promises we can see that something else is going on - even for the land. How does the New Testament view the promises of the land? Are they unfulfilled? In Genesis we see the promises to Abraham that God's people will live God's way in God's land. People, God's way, God's land. That's all isn't it? No! Let's not forget that God ALSO promised Abraham that this special nation would also one day bless the whole world!
So in the New Testament - where is the temple, city of God, and all that situated - for surely those structures need a land to be in?
This is where ripping the OT land promises out of the spiritual promises actually starts to destroy the gospel. The land is all part of the one package. It's us - the Christian church.

1 Peter 2:9
"9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy."

In other words - you cannot rip the OT promises about 'the land' out of context and accuse God of not keeping his promises literally when he never kept the other promises 'literally'. As an Australian, I'm not a member of the nation of Israel - but I am in God's chosen people, his ROYAL priesthood, I'm his special possession, and I am in the people of God. Why? Jesus saved me. But how can I be in his people, priesthood, nation, special possession if I'm not also in his land? Where's my temple, my sacrifice, my security? Joshua gave the Israelites security in the land. Where is my security? Where is my rest from the worry and insecurity of this world?

Hebrews 4 explains:
"8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works, just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience."

Joshua did not give them rest in the land. We're still on our way there! It's all quite clear - the land is in the new Heavens and new Earth where we will finally be secure. Even the OT patriarchs understood something of this.

Hebrews 11
"8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9 By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God. 11 And by faith even Sarah, who was past childbearing age, was enabled to bear children because she considered him faithful who had made the promise. 12 And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.

13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth. 14 People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15 If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them."

God's promises about 'the land' are already fulfilled in that we are already seated in heaven. Indeed, to be a Christian is to have 'the land' guaranteed to us. You just cannot split the land promises out from all the other nationhood, temple, sacrifice, people, prophet, priesthood promises - it doesn't make sense of the flow of the whole bible! It destroys the gospel. There's only a problem when people try to read OT spiritual metaphors literally. They're not literal, and there are many more NT verses that show they are spiritual - verses OT 'literalists' probably miss because they're perceived to be 'boring', non-eschatological gospel verses. But there's eschatology all the way through!

EG: Where are the temple and land and people of God in Ephesians 2?
I'll make them bold.

EPHESIANS 2

"And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit."

Where's the land? Where's the temple? Where are the people of God to live? In Jesus, by his spirit, we are being knit together to be the temple of God. 1 Corinthians 3:16 "Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in your midst?"

Just as those OT prophets saw a heavenly city where daily life was like temple life, we are currently being built into that right now - with the promise of it being fully realised in the future. Now, but not yet. Eschatological tension. I cannot take one tiny paragraph from Revelation 20 and smack it across the overall thrust of the whole Bible to throw the vast forces of eschatological fulfilment in the very identity of the gospel people of God out of shape. Otherwise, I might start to doubt if an Australian slob like myself can really be in 'the land' if I'm downunder, and if I'm really part of the people of God, the priesthood, and all that. But according to the overwhelming thrust of the NT, I can only see that I AM in the people of God. The two have become one, and an Australian slob like myself can be included. Where I am now is being blessed and Satan being bound as I declare the gospel. The millennium is happening, right now, and has been for 2000 years. And I am both in God's land now as I declare the gospel to the ends of the earth, and longing for the real land, the real rest, of eternity. Amen and amen.

You are correct in the point this world is not our home. You cannot claim the few years on earth now can relate one iota to the age to come, and those who "bodily/physically" live on earth in the next age. That is the error. Claiming the age to come is already here in this present age. This age is not even symbolic of the next age, and the next age is not symbolic of this age. They are totally different both physically and spiritually. If you segregate the physical and spiritual that is your choice, even if very very wrong. Why point out the two age teaching if you totally reject it?

Timtofly · Nov 1, 2020

Andrewn said:
Early Chiliasts were Amillennialists who believed in an earthly, rather than a heavenly, Kingdom after the resurrection. OTOH, modern Premills believe in a period of 1000 years in which both resurrected and unglorified people inhabit the earth and end up rebelling against Christ, again!!! You can't show me these beliefs in the early Church.

They were not amil. That is a conflict of interest. Either there is or there is not an age to come. They would be post if not pre. Amil can only state we live in the age after looking back at history. No one could look back at a 1000 year range until after at least 1070AD. Seeing as how no one lives past 150, how can one personally experience a millennium? Truly this world is not our home. Paul has been in Paradise over 1800 years now. That is his permanent home.

chad kincham · Nov 1, 2020

Andrewn said:
modern Premills believe in a period of 1000 years in which both resurrected and unglorified people inhabit the earth and end up rebelling against Christ, again!!! You can't show me these beliefs in the early Church.

But that is clearly scriptural, that Jesus rules the nations with a rod of iron, for a millennium, then Satan is released to tempt those born during that time who’ve never had to decide between Jesus and the devil, and he deceives them, and Satan and those armies surround the city Jesus dwells in, to attack it, and fire from heaven destroys them proving 1) Jesus is ruling from a city on earth, 2) people other than the redeemed by Jesus are alive during the millennium.

In fact in Zechariah 14, Jesus comes back to earth, and returns to Mount Olive, when Jerusalem is being attacked by a coalition of armies.

Jesus destroys those armies.

Zechariah 14 goes on to say that those left alive from the nations that attacked Jerusalem, live on, and come up yearly into the city to Worship God.

This cross references to Revelation 21 where God and the lamb live on earth with mankind, for eternity, in the city New Jerusalem, which descended down from heaven.

Thus after Jesus returns, and rules the nations along with believers who rule and reign with Him (who do they reign over? The natural people living on earth.)

BTW, Galatians 4 has nothing to do with the end times, it’s about two covenants, the old one being bondage, and the new covenant gives freedom.

And per Revelation 22, the new Jerusalem comes down to earth when the millennial reign of Jesus begins.

chad kincham · Nov 1, 2020

eclipsenow said:
So while Millennials go on about how we must expect promises about the literal Jerusalem today Paul himself just calls that city 'slavery' - and only the Jerusalem above is free.

And that city New Jerusalem above, descends down to land in the old Jerusalem, and God and the lamb dwell in it, forever. Revelation 21.

We do expect that promise to be fulfilled at the start of the millennium.

Timtofly · Nov 1, 2020

chad kincham said:
And that city New Jerusalem above, descends down to land in the old Jerusalem, and God and the lamb dwell in it, forever. Revelation 21.

We do expect that promise to be fulfilled at the start of the millennium.

It cannot be at the start. The New Jerusalem does not come until the NHNE. The millennium is the 1000 years before the GWT. The GWT is before the New Jerusalem and NHNE. That is the chronologically order of Revelation 20-22.

fwGod · Nov 1, 2020

The revelation is about future things.. that will end. The world can and will end in future. But what is meant by the word "world"?

The Greek word translated "world" doesn't mean the planet, it means the age. As in the disciples asking Jesus "what will be the end of the age?"

This time we live in now is called "the church age". Then there's the Tribulation age. Then there's the millennial age. Whether those are the "ages to come" that the apostle Paul talked about, or he speaks of ages beyond those I mentioned.

The Bible says that the earth will remain forever. It will because it was created by God who is eternal and His word (spoken in Genesis 1) abides forever. He intends that what He creates will last.

So the words in the Bible of the end of the world is not speaking of this planet exploding like Leia's home planet was by the Death Star.

The end of the world is referring to the present world of the time of the gentiles. The apostle Paul uses in his epistles the phrase "this world", "this present world". It will in future give way to the Millennium age when Christ rules on this planet from his throne in Jerusalem.

Timtofly · Nov 1, 2020

fwGod said:
The Bible says that the earth will remain forever. It will because it was created by God who is eternal and His word (spoken in Genesis 1) abides forever. He intends that what He creates will last.

I am sure there is a verse, but curious why you did not mention one.

Your error is in the fact, the heavens and earth is one single creation. The earth is not a planet, and never was. This creation will cease to exist. That is the definition of NHNE. God created this existence to last 8000 years. It is a finite creation with a beginning and end. The next version may be finite or it may be eternal. But we know that creation can begin and end, but God exists outside of creation and does not change nor is there any time at all. Time is built into this creation.

chad kincham · Nov 1, 2020

Timtofly said:
I am sure there is a verse, but curious why you did not mention one.

Your error is in the fact, the heavens and earth is one single creation. The earth is not a planet, and never was. This creation will cease to exist. That is the definition of NHNE. God created this existence to last 8000 years. It is a finite creation with a beginning and end. The next version may be finite or it may be eternal. But we know that creation can begin and end, but God exists outside of creation and does not change nor is there any time at all. Time is built into this creation.

The Bible says twice, world without end, amen.

Just like the earth was destroyed in a flood, but it’s the same planet, it will be destroyed by fire, and restored to Edenic condition.

Actually only one third of the earth is burned, and one fourth of mankind is killed.

Shalom.

fwGod · Nov 1, 2020

Timtofly said:
I am sure there is a verse, but curious why you did not mention one.

There are a number of verses that I could look up and post them here. But then if I could, then so could you.

Your error is in the fact, the heavens and earth is one single creation. The earth is not a planet, and never was.

The earth is a biblical word. The planet is a secular word that is synonymous to the word earth.

You are on your own concerning your own philosophy.

This creation will cease to exist. That is the definition of NHNE.

New heavens and New earth, is a makeover using the same (this) earth. Like giving an old desk a newer look instead of totally destoying it and starting with a completely nuther desk.

That the earth would cease to exist is contrary to scripture of the earth remaining forever, world without end.. that you allow to be a verse in the Bible.

But I suggest that you are confusing the word earth with the word world. There is a difference.

This world will pass away and behold a new world comes. But it's the same earth/planet.

God created this existence to last 8000 years.

There's no scripture that says it will last 8 thousand years.

God gave this world 6,000 years for man to rule it plus 1,000 years for Jesus to rule the millennium.

Just as there are seven days to a week, there are seven thousand years to the earth, then will come the consuming of this present world and renovation of it to be a new heavens and a new earth.

It is a finite creation with a beginning and end.

The time of man's rule of this world is finite. This earth is forever.

The next version may be finite or it may be eternal.

This is a rhetorical question used to point out what you said.. Why is it that you allow for either at some other time but not allow for an eternal earth in this time? That is a contradiction of your own case.

The creation of the heavens and the earth existed previously as being covered with water. And darkness being upon the face of the deep. As a result of God's pre-Adamic judgement. The scripture speaks of a world that then was.

But we know that creation can begin and end,

There is no scripture that says that what God spoke into existence shall have an end.

but God exists outside of creation and does not change nor is there any time at all.

Eternity is a form of time. Even in eternity time passes by. As noted in the scripture that to God the passage of a thousand years is like a watch of the night to a guard in a castle.

But, again you contradict yourself. You said above that the next version may be finite or it may be eternal. Yet you believe that God doesn't change.

Time is built into this creation.

Time is a portion of eternity.

And eternity would be involved to see if the next earth will be finite as you think this earth is.. or if God will next create an eternal earth, which implies that God changes the duration of any earth. But you said that God doesn't change.

It seems that you are confused about the subject of which you speak.

Rachel20 · Nov 1, 2020

eclipsenow said:
Hi all,
anyone notice that the world keeps ending?

Yes! That's why I came to see the 7s in the series as container classes. The 7th seal contains the 7 trumpets, and the 7th trumpet contains the 7 bowls. So all the bowls and trumpets are contained in the 7th seal.

Timtofly · Nov 1, 2020

fwGod said:
There are a number of verses that I could look up and post them here. But then if I could, then so could you.
The earth is a biblical word. The planet is a secular word that is synonymous to the word earth.

You are on your own concerning your own philosophy.
New heavens and New earth, is a makeover using the same (this) earth. Like giving an old desk a newer look instead of totally destoying it and starting with a completely nuther desk.

That the earth would cease to exist is contrary to scripture of the earth remaining forever, world without end.. that you allow to be a verse in the Bible.

But I suggest that you are confusing the word earth with the word world. There is a difference.

This world will pass away and behold a new world comes. But it's the same earth/planet.
There's no scripture that says it will last 8 thousand years.

God gave this world 6,000 years for man to rule it plus 1,000 years for Jesus to rule the millennium.

Just as there are seven days to a week, there are seven thousand years to the earth, then will come the consuming of this present world and renovation of it to be a new heavens and a new earth.
The time of man's rule of this world is finite. This earth is forever.
This is a rhetorical question used to point out what you said.. Why is it that you allow for either at some other time but not allow for an eternal earth in this time? That is a contradiction of your own case.

Genesis 1:1 states there was a beginning instant creation of physical heaven and earth. Revelation 21-22 claims there is another instant change of heaven and earth.

If God left out Revelation 21-22, then there would be an eternal existence until God changed existence.

If you think the earth is a planet in a vast universe, the sun would eventually encompass the earth, and it would dissolve. You would have to totally change your view of the universe if the earth is forever.

fwGod said:
The creation of the heavens and the earth existed previously as being covered with water. And darkness being upon the face of the deep. As a result of God's pre-Adamic judgement. The scripture speaks of a world that then was.
There is no scripture that says that what God spoke into existence shall have an end.
Eternity is a form of time. Even in eternity time passes by. As noted in the scripture that to God the passage of a thousand years is like a watch of the night to a guard in a castle.

Without form was a state after creation. To say God used pre-existence to work with could put reality on par with God Himself. God would not transcend creation.

Sorry but God does not change. No change is no time. Eternity is not infinite time. It is the total absence of time. We will never enter eternity. We cannot transcend created reality. Not even "in God".

The Lord's Day, 1000 years/24 hr day, is only a part of this created reality. In Heaven time changes faster than on the earth's surface. In fact the 7th Day was a 1000 year period for the sons of God on earth, but only a day in heaven. That was the first 1000 years. Then God created/planted the Garden of Eden, brought it into reality. Then placed a "1000 year old" Adam into the Garden. Adam disobeyed and then man had to work 6000 years. Adam had no age when placed in the Garden. He lived his first 30 years until he disobeyed. Then his body started to age, decay, and 100 years later, Seth was born.

fwGod said:
But, again you contradict yourself. You said above that the next version may be finite or it may be eternal. Yet you believe that God doesn't change. Time is a portion of eternity.

And eternity would be involved to see if the next earth will be finite as you think this earth is.. or if God will next create an eternal earth, which implies that God changes the duration of any earth. But you said that God doesn't change.

It seems that you are confused about the subject of which you speak.

God presents Himself as 3 beings in this creation. GOD singular does not change. What changes is the time in heaven as related to the time on earth.

It is my opinion, since no other human I have met agrees with me. Eternity is the place of many mansions. Many created realities. Post cross Jesus as God existed before the creation of this reality of heaven and earth and we live in the place he left to prepare. Jesus said they already knew about this earth, even though He had yet to prepare it.

The place we are going is Paradise, and that was created when Adam was placed in it. It was not known to his disciples, because Adam was banned and Paradise was moved to heaven.

In the 6th seal, this earth will be put back to the way it was before the Flood of Noah's day. Noah and the second coming in seal 6 are the only great changes without making a totally different existence.

Forever just means endless to the normal observation of humanity. Melchizedek was known as having "eternal life". The reason was he was Shem a son of Noah. The oldest human on the planet. Many generations had come and gone, thus by Abraham's day, it was like he had never been born. In fact he was born 98 years before the Flood. He had known both "worlds". He witnessed all the separation of the continents, post Flood. Shem lived 502 years after the Flood, a total of 600 years.

fwGod · Nov 2, 2020

Timtofly said:
Genesis 1:1 states there was a beginning instant creation of physical heaven and earth.

There is no use of the word instant. It is assumed or implied by the phrases "He said .. and it was so."

Revelation 21-22 claims there is another instant change of heaven and earth.

Where is it written in Revelation 21-22 that the change was instantaneous?

~

Would that I could respond to all of your points in your post instantly.. but alas that's impossible. Most of it is your own opinions anyway and there's no point in responding to those.

Andrewn · Nov 2, 2020

Timtofly said:
They were not amil. That is a conflict of interest. Either there is or there is not an age to come. They would be post if not pre.

Your point is valid bec the term Amil is really a misnomer. "Amillennial" was actually coined in a pejorative way by those who hold premillennial views. Amillennialists do not deny the Millennium but rather believe it is already in progress. One can say Amils are actually Postmils in the sense that they believe in Christ's 2nd coming after the current Millennium.

Andrewn · Nov 2, 2020

chad kincham said:
But that is clearly scriptural, that Jesus rules the nations with a rod of iron, for a millennium, then Satan is released to tempt those born during that time who’ve never had to decide between Jesus and the devil, and he deceives them, and Satan and those armies surround the city Jesus dwells in, to attack it, and fire from heaven destroys them proving 1) Jesus is ruling from a city on earth, 2) people other than the redeemed by Jesus are alive during the millennium.

This is all true about the Millennium except that:

1) The Millennium is already in progress. It has started in 30 AD; and

2) There is no indication in the Bible that Jesus physically dwells in a city on earth.

chad kincham said:
In fact in Zechariah 14, Jesus comes back to earth, and returns to Mount Olive, when Jerusalem is being attacked by a coalition of armies. Jesus destroys those armies.

You just contradicted yourself. I thought you said Jesus was already physically dwelling in a city on earth.

chad kincham said:
And that city New Jerusalem above, descends down to land in the old Jerusalem, and God and the lamb dwell in it, forever. Revelation 21.

Is that a physical city in which the saints are physical pillars and the Apostles are physical doors?

Christian Gedge · Nov 2, 2020

eclipsenow said:
You live in the holiest of holies - New Zealand! I'd LOVE to visit NZ!

A slight exaggeration, yes? But when this horrible plague is beaten we would love to see our Aussiebros again. :groupray:

Christian Gedge · Nov 2, 2020

Rachel20 said:
Yes! That's why I came to see the 7s in the series as container classes. The 7th seal contains the 7 trumpets, and the 7th trumpet contains the 7 bowls. So all the bowls and trumpets are contained in the 7th seal.

Yes, I observed the same pattern.

Revelation cannot be a future-timeline because the world keeps ending in it!

Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works

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