Revelation cannot be a future-timeline because the world keeps ending in it!

eclipsenow

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What happens when the seven seals are opened, is all within.
These aren't future events, like everyone thinks they are, but they happen again and again, in the lives of God's elect. It actually tells you what the seals are a few verses before.

Rev 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
Rev 5:2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
Rev 5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
Rev 5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold,
the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

The little book is the scriptures, which is Jesus Christ, and you cannot understand the scriptures, and thus Jesus Christ, unless Jesus Christ reveals them to you. With each new level of understanding comes a new level of suffering. That's just the way it is.
I agree that Revelation is saying Jesus is the one whose gospel work unseals the mystery of the past, especially how God's people would be rescued. I'm not so sure that I would say each new level of understanding causes a new seal to be unleashed in suffering. I think it's more that he is the one that did the gospel work in history that we trust in - that battle is won! But we still live in the here and now, and sometimes in this life before heaven we will face seals, trumpets, bowls, and plagues.

Uncertainty is one of the most unendurable psychological experiences people can endure. I think that's why during Corona virus we see so many different conspiracy theories. This stuff can't 'just happen' - there's got to be someone behind it. They'd rather some global government conspiracy than just be at the whims of nature and plague.

I think attacking Revelation to try and figure out "WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN IN THE NEXT DECADE!" is a similar psychological condition many end-timers get stuck on. The reality according to Amil Doctrine is we just don't know. Futurists should deal with it.
 
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BABerean2

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And anyone thinking anything I said is less than 200 years old might want to take another look. I've watched your videos before and they are a great source of disinformation. I'm sorry you've let them deceive you like this. Seriously, time is short. Super short. Straighten yourself out.


Anyone who claims God did not fulfill His promises to the Jewish people through the sacrifice of His Son at Calvary, would be the one who is deceived.

I was once a deacon in a Dispensational Bible Church which taught the doctrine in Sunday School.

When I started having problems getting the doctrine to agree with my Bible, I started doing some research into the older commentaries.
I was shocked to find out John Darby brought the doctrine to America about the time of the Civil War.

It was later incorporated into the notes of the Scofield Reference Bible, and spread like a virus through the evangelical Church in the United States.

It has now come to dominate much of Christian television in the U.S.


If you do not believe me, take a look at the sermons and commentaries written at the time of the Revolutionary War.


.
 
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SeventyOne

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Anyone who claims God did not fulfill His promises to the Jewish people through the sacrifice of His Son at Calvary, would be the one who is deceived.

I was once a deacon in a Dispensational Bible Church which taught the doctrine in Sunday School.

When I started having problems getting the doctrine to agree with my Bible, I started doing some research into the older commentaries.
I was shocked to find out John Darby brought the doctrine to America about the time of the Civil War.

It was later incorporated into the notes of the Scofield Reference Bible, and spread like a virus through the evangelical Church in the United States.

It has now come to dominate much of Christian television in the U.S.


If you do not believe me, take a look at the sermons and commentaries written at the time of the Revolutionary War.


.

Ok. You have chosen your lie. Still has nothing to do with this age wrapping up or the Revelation 12 sign in the heavens a bit over three years ago.

These next 36 hours are actually a high rapture watch time, but I'm certain you had no idea about that either.
 
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martymonster

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I agree that Revelation is saying Jesus is the one whose gospel work unseals the mystery of the past, especially how God's people would be rescued. I'm not so sure that I would say each new level of understanding causes a new seal to be unleashed in suffering. I think it's more that he is the one that did the gospel work in history that we trust in - that battle is won! But we still live in the here and now, and sometimes in this life before heaven we will face seals, trumpets, bowls, and plagues.

Uncertainty is one of the most unendurable psychological experiences people can endure. I think that's why during Corona virus we see so many different conspiracy theories. This stuff can't 'just happen' - there's got to be someone behind it. They'd rather some global government conspiracy than just be at the whims of nature and plague.

I think attacking Revelation to try and figure out "WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN IN THE NEXT DECADE!" is a similar psychological condition many end-timers get stuck on. The reality according to Amil Doctrine is we just don't know. Futurists should deal with it.

Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

1Pe 1:6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Tribulation and suffering is a necessary process that cannot be sidestepped.
 
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BABerean2

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Ok. You have chosen your lie.


If you can show anything in Post #42 that is a "lie", please do so.

Otherwise you are exposing what is truly the "lie".


The truth about your Two Peoples of God doctrine is found below.


PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418


Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_23.pdf


Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_22.pdf


.
 
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SeventyOne

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If you can show anything in Post #42 that is a "lie", please do so.

Otherwise you are exposing what is truly the "lie".


The truth about your Two Peoples of God doctrine is found below.


PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418


Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_23.pdf


Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_22.pdf


.

You have a great way of avoiding the points made. I don't need to read your PDF's because I've read them before. As I've already mentioned, they are a great source of deception.
 
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Jaxxi

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Hi all,
anyone notice that the world keeps ending? Like at the end of the seven seals?

The 6th seal is the end of the world. See Revelation 6.

12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

The 7th seal just confirms it with more destruction. It's judgement day. It's wrath. It's the end. It's a picture that after the seven seals depicting TYRANNY, we see judgement day.

Then Revelation resets to a different theme and describes this side of heaven from another perspective. Seven trumpets depicting CHAOS in nature. There's horrible stuff this side of heaven, with violent earthquakes (mountains falling into the sea) and all kinds of badness, like Boxing Day tsunamis that wipe out 240,000 people. What are we to do? Wait till the end. Endure like the patient Christians we are meant to be, because at the end of the 7 Trumpets... (Rev 11)


The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord
and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever.”​

16 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:

“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
the One who is and who was,
because you have taken your great power
and have begun to reign.
18 The nations were angry,
and your wrath has come.
The time has come for judging the dead,
and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your people who revere your name,
both great and small—
and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

19 Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a severe hailstorm.​

That's Judgement Day. That's the end of this world. There's more to say about 7 Signs and 7 Plagues, but this is the overall pattern as described by by Dr Paul Barnett, theologian and historian and author of "Apocalypse now and then!"

Revelation describes life now, between Jesus Resurrection and his Return.
It doesn't prescribe some last decade or whatever. It's a metaphorical sermon about conditions now, for all Christians across the last 2000 years and counting. That's how the early church fathers understood it - and it's how the Reformers understood it.

The Last Days began at Pentecost (see Peter's sermon) and are described as the Last Days since Jesus fulfilled all prophecy on the cross (see Hebrews 1).

The sequences of seven are concurrent, not consecutive. They roughly describe the kind of life we can expect now, this side of heaven, then the end of the world. Then they reset to go to another theme and start again.

It goes like this:

Seven seals depicting TYRANNY - God judges the world and saves his people. Then reset to describe...

Seven trumpets depicting CHAOS in nature - God judges the world and saves his people. Then reset to describe...

Seven signs depicting PERSECUTION (then reset etc)
Seven plagues depicting DESTRUCTION (then it moves onto other things.)

That's the argument. The world keeps ending. This is just not a future timetable, but a waltz through theological themes and descriptions of life now.

Want something pertinent? We're literally living in a time of plague! We should be reading the seven plagues to get a description of what we are meant to remember and think about and be like.

Revelation describes life now, not some coded future timeline that's impossible for futurists to crack. How many times are we going to be embarrassed by yet more failed predictions? It's just silly, and makes people avoid the book. Instead, this Amil / historical approach declares the gospel loud and clear into a world that is suffering. People are hurting out there, and hurting bad. Just as they were when John wrote to a church about to feel the full might of an angry Roman Empire. He wrote words of comfort to them. He didn't say, "You think that's bad - just wait till you see what happens in 2000 years!" And we shouldn't likewise be saying silly things like "This Covid thing is nothing - you wait till you see what my wall-chart loosely based on Revelation says about the next 7 years!"
View attachment 287313

None of it has happened yet!
 
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BABerean2

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You have a great way of avoiding the points made. I don't need to read your PDF's because I've read them before. As I've already mentioned, they are a great source of deception.


Are you claiming John Nelson Darby did not bring modern Dispensational Theology to America about the time of the Civil War?


.
 
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eclipsenow

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None of it has happened yet!
Yes and no.

Because Revelation is a symbolic sermon that John wrote to his generation, and because some of the imagery he draws on probably describes certain historical events of Roman persecution, yes, some of it has happened. But it's not a future timetable - it's a sermon about suffering. It's not that John was just laying out a timetable that certain Roman persecution things would happen - but what it means for all Christians in all ages when those sort of government funded persecution events happen.

So no. It hasn't happened yet, because it's not a timetable.
But yes - it has happened, because of Rome, Islamic Jihad, the Crusades, Hitler, Stalin, North Korean, etc etc etc.

See, the New Testament doesn't have to be about 21st Century American or Australian Christians to have something to say to us. Just as we read the epistles in their historic settings to understand what was going on with the Corinthian church, and do our hermeneutics and all that, and only at the end draw up the theological meaning that can be applied to us today, so we've got to come to Revelation asking how they read it then.

John says in Chapter 1 that it was to his generation, about his generation, he shared in their tribulation in his home prison on Patmos, and that he wanted them to keep it and obey it. He also used a bunch of gospel imagery that showed this message would be to them in their suffering and end with a vision of the glorious conquering Christ. It's no wonder that after describing some awful climax of events in his sequences that he will glimpse forward to the end and say "It's OK - remember the Lord is still almighty!"

On the other hand, why on earth would he right to his generation about us?

1. It says "You're about to suffer heaps - but wait till you see what happens in 2000 years?"
2. It's also impossible to keep and obey. You try 'obeying' a prophecy about people 2000 years from now! Here's one to try:

"In 4000AD a mighty battle will spew forth across the surface of Mars,
the Greens will solar flare across the Reds - reducing them to dust!"

Now you - today - go forth, and obey this prophecy!
 
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Original Happy Camper

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Chiastic Structure
Some modern interpretations confuse the 70-week prophecy by applying it to the Antichrist, who (according to this interpretation) would arrive at the end of the Christian dispensation some time in the future.

However, the prophecy in Daniel 9:26-27 has a chiastic structure, and if this is taken into account, the apparent confusion in its literary style is eliminated:


And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The chiastic structure is as follows:
* a. Messiah destroyed
* b. Sanctuary destroyed
* b1. Sacrifice terminated
* a1. Ruler destroyed

Verse 27 has an additional chiasm: “he—week—week—he,” again emphasizing the role of the Messiah. It can thus be said that the destruction of the Messiah caused "the sacrifice and the oblation to cease." The Messiah would also confirm His covenant with God’s people by His sacrificial death “in the midst of the week.”

John Wycliffe, Martin Luther, and Isaac Newton all connect the 70th week with the Messiah. When Christ cried “It is finished,” the priests were officiating in the temple. It was the hour of the evening sacrifice, and as the Passover lamb representing Christ was about to be slain, “the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake and the rocks rent” (Matthew 27:51).

The 70-Week Prophecy | Daniel 70 Weeks Prophecy
 
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eclipsenow

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Chiastic Structure
Some modern interpretations confuse the 70-week prophecy by applying it to the Antichrist, who (according to this interpretation) would arrive at the end of the Christian dispensation some time in the future.

However, the prophecy in Daniel 9:26-27 has a chiastic structure, and if this is taken into account, the apparent confusion in its literary style is eliminated:


And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The chiastic structure is as follows:
* a. Messiah destroyed
* b. Sanctuary destroyed
* b1. Sacrifice terminated
* a1. Ruler destroyed

Verse 27 has an additional chiasm: “he—week—week—he,” again emphasizing the role of the Messiah. It can thus be said that the destruction of the Messiah caused "the sacrifice and the oblation to cease." The Messiah would also confirm His covenant with God’s people by His sacrificial death “in the midst of the week.”

John Wycliffe, Martin Luther, and Isaac Newton all connect the 70th week with the Messiah. When Christ cried “It is finished,” the priests were officiating in the temple. It was the hour of the evening sacrifice, and as the Passover lamb representing Christ was about to be slain, “the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake and the rocks rent” (Matthew 27:51).

The 70-Week Prophecy | Daniel 70 Weeks Prophecy
Yes - but we're talking about how to read Revelation in the light of the fact that it also has its structures - and the world ends again and again in them. So it's not a future timetable. That's the topic. Your copy and paste post might be relevant in other Daniel related threads - but it's not really the topic here and feels a bit spamy.
 
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Original Happy Camper

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Yes - but we're talking about how to read Revelation in the light of the fact that it also has its structures - and the world ends again and again in them. So it's not a future timetable. That's the topic. Your copy and paste post might be relevant in other Daniel related threads - but it's not really the topic here and feels a bit spamy.

Understanding the Chiastic structure changes the understanding that you appear to have. Sorry about your "feelings" it is not spam it is scholarly and historical.
 
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parousia70

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These next 36 hours are actually a high rapture watch time

High?

I wonder why the rapture index website shows we are farther away from the rapture today than we were in 2016?

Rapture Index - Latest activity indicators of when the Rapture might occur.

Rapture Ready Index
Rapture Index: 181
Updated:Oct 26, 2020

2016 High: 189

They list several categories as indicators, with comments as to why of the "nearness" of the rapture is further away today than it was 4 years ago..

I find them fascinating

Beast Government:
The government movement is having trouble with world unity.

Earthquakes:
The lack of major quakes has downgraded this category.

Famine:
There has been a decrease in the reporting of famines around the world.

Climate:
Global weather has been in the normal range.

Food Supply:
Fears of Covid-19 related food shortages have not panned out.

Satanism:
The lack of activity has downgraded this category.

Unemployment:
After months of negative news, unemployment data has turned positive.

Interest Rates:
The Coronavirus virus is putting downward pressure on rates.

Oil Supply/Price:

Oil prices have recovered from their negative price.

Drug Abuse:

The lack of activity has downgraded this category.
 
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eclipsenow

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Understanding the Chiastic structure changes the understanding that you appear to have. Sorry about your "feelings" it is not spam it is scholarly and historical.
Hey - I am completely on board with the classic Chiastic structures in the bible. The old 'story sandwich' which mirrors out from the 'meat' of the story in the middle, EG: Noah safe in his ark on top of the water - with the stages of loading and unloading the ark mirroring out towards the beginning and end of the story, etc. When appropriate to the passage, this is standard Sydney Anglican sermon material.

(OFF TOPIC ASIDE! In fact - there have been times I agree with that reading of Daniel entirely - and then other times I've restudied them and thought they were about Antiochus IV. Different theologians and theological historians I respect hold different opinions on it. It could be Jesus claimed the 'abomination that causes desolation' (AD 70) was going to be as bad as Antiochus. So I'm a little agnostic on that one - but I agree it's not some end times figure. END OF OFF TOPIC ASIDE.)

But - just as with my previous post - you've missed the context of what I'm discussing.

This thread is about Revelation, not Daniel, and you've got to demonstrate applicability.

I'm trying to keep this thread on topic because so many End-Timers here just jump in and assert their on opinions on anything at all - without any relevance to the OP - and then the thread is just plain hijacked and trolled.
 
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Hey - I am completely on board with the classic Chiastic structures in the bible. The old 'story sandwich' which mirrors out from the 'meat' of the story in the middle, EG: Noah safe in his ark on top of the water - with the stages of loading and unloading the ark mirroring out towards the beginning and end of the story, etc. When appropriate to the passage, this is standard Sydney Anglican sermon material.

(OFF TOPIC ASIDE! In fact - there have been times I agree with that reading of Daniel entirely - and then other times I've restudied them and thought they were about Antiochus IV. Different theologians and theological historians I respect hold different opinions on it. It could be Jesus claimed the 'abomination that causes desolation' (AD 70) was going to be as bad as Antiochus. So I'm a little agnostic on that one - but I agree it's not some end times figure. END OF OFF TOPIC ASIDE.)

But - just as with my previous post - you've missed the context of what I'm discussing.

This thread is about Revelation, not Daniel, and you've got to demonstrate applicability.

I'm trying to keep this thread on topic because so many End-Timers here just jump in and assert their on opinions on anything at all - without any relevance to the OP - and then the thread is just plain hijacked and trolled.

Chiastic Structure of the Book of Revelation
The book is written in a chiastic structure that seems to throw events out of sequence, but the structure actually builds in such a way as to highlight the central issues of the great controversy between Christ and Satan.

A chiasm is a double list of related items in which the order of the second list is opposite to the order of the first list. If we divide Revelation at the end of chapter 14 into two halves, and then divide each half into separate divisions we can find related pairs of content. These pairs go in opposite directions. It is organized like a mirror image.

The entire book of Revelation shows this concept at work. The first part is called the prologue; it is the introduction and is found in Revelation 1:1-8. The ending is called the epilogue and is found in Revelation 22:8-17. Note the similarities (hold your mouse over a colored section to see the details):

.......

The chiastic structure divides Revelation into two major groups. The first half deals primarily with the experience of God’s people during the Christian era. This is called the historical half. The second half deals almost exclusively with last day events and is called the eschatological half. The word ” eschatological” comes from the Greek word eschaton, meaning “end.”
Is Revelation a Sealed Book? | Daniel & Revelation Prophecies
 
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eclipsenow

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Chiastic Structure of the Book of Revelation
The book is written in a chiastic structure that seems to throw events out of sequence, but the structure actually builds in such a way as to highlight the central issues of the great controversy between Christ and Satan.

A chiasm is a double list of related items in which the order of the second list is opposite to the order of the first list. If we divide Revelation at the end of chapter 14 into two halves, and then divide each half into separate divisions we can find related pairs of content. These pairs go in opposite directions. It is organized like a mirror image.

The entire book of Revelation shows this concept at work. The first part is called the prologue; it is the introduction and is found in Revelation 1:1-8. The ending is called the epilogue and is found in Revelation 22:8-17. Note the similarities (hold your mouse over a colored section to see the details):

.......

The chiastic structure divides Revelation into two major groups. The first half deals primarily with the experience of God’s people during the Christian era. This is called the historical half. The second half deals almost exclusively with last day events and is called the eschatological half. The word ” eschatological” comes from the Greek word eschaton, meaning “end.”
Is Revelation a Sealed Book? | Daniel & Revelation Prophecies
Except that because the world keeps ending at the end of each sequence of 7, it seems more to be doing waltzes through history and theologically describing life now, not prescribing it according to some future timetable. Are you saying the "End Times" Chiastic bit (I'm undecided on that at the moment) is a future timetable - or a theological description of the end?
 
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chad kincham

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Hi all,
anyone notice that the world keeps ending? Like at the end of the seven seals?

The 6th seal is the end of the world. See Revelation 6.

12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

The 7th seal just confirms it with more destruction. It's judgement day. It's wrath. It's the end. It's a picture that after the seven seals depicting TYRANNY, we see judgement day.

Then Revelation resets to a different theme and describes this side of heaven from another perspective. Seven trumpets depicting CHAOS in nature. There's horrible stuff this side of heaven, with violent earthquakes (mountains falling into the sea) and all kinds of badness, like Boxing Day tsunamis that wipe out 240,000 people. What are we to do? Wait till the end. Endure like the patient Christians we are meant to be, because at the end of the 7 Trumpets... (Rev 11)


The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord
and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever.”​

16 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:

“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
the One who is and who was,
because you have taken your great power
and have begun to reign.
18 The nations were angry,
and your wrath has come.
The time has come for judging the dead,
and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your people who revere your name,
both great and small—
and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

19 Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a severe hailstorm.​

That's Judgement Day. That's the end of this world. There's more to say about 7 Signs and 7 Plagues, but this is the overall pattern as described by by Dr Paul Barnett, theologian and historian and author of "Apocalypse now and then!"

Revelation describes life now, between Jesus Resurrection and his Return.
It doesn't prescribe some last decade or whatever. It's a metaphorical sermon about conditions now, for all Christians across the last 2000 years and counting. That's how the early church fathers understood it - and it's how the Reformers understood it.

The Last Days began at Pentecost (see Peter's sermon) and are described as the Last Days since Jesus fulfilled all prophecy on the cross (see Hebrews 1).

The sequences of seven are concurrent, not consecutive. They roughly describe the kind of life we can expect now, this side of heaven, then the end of the world. Then they reset to go to another theme and start again.

It goes like this:

Seven seals depicting TYRANNY - God judges the world and saves his people. Then reset to describe...

Seven trumpets depicting CHAOS in nature - God judges the world and saves his people. Then reset to describe...

Seven signs depicting PERSECUTION (then reset etc)
Seven plagues depicting DESTRUCTION (then it moves onto other things.)

That's the argument. The world keeps ending. This is just not a future timetable, but a waltz through theological themes and descriptions of life now.

Want something pertinent? We're literally living in a time of plague! We should be reading the seven plagues to get a description of what we are meant to remember and think about and be like.

Revelation describes life now, not some coded future timeline that's impossible for futurists to crack. How many times are we going to be embarrassed by yet more failed predictions? It's just silly, and makes people avoid the book. Instead, this Amil / historical approach declares the gospel loud and clear into a world that is suffering. People are hurting out there, and hurting bad. Just as they were when John wrote to a church about to feel the full might of an angry Roman Empire. He wrote words of comfort to them. He didn't say, "You think that's bad - just wait till you see what happens in 2000 years!" And we shouldn't likewise be saying silly things like "This Covid thing is nothing - you wait till you see what my wall-chart loosely based on Revelation says about the next 7 years!"
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Revelation isn’t in chronological order, but it takes us through Jesus’ second coming (Rev 1:7 - Rev 11:15), the tribulation, the millennium where Satan is bound a thousand years, Satans judgment and judgment of the damned, and ends with the final war, God coming down to earth to dwell with His redeemed forever, in a building 1,500 miles high.

And there should be no failed predictions if people were intelligent enough to heed Jesus’ words that no man knows the time of His return, not even Hiimself.
 
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chad kincham

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Since the beginning of Revelation 12 is a history lesson containing the fall of Satan, and the birth and death of Christ, you are off by at least 1,900 years.

Except revelation is a vision given to John about future events, not about a history lesson.

Rev 12 only uses the birth of Jesus to identify the woman as the Jewish nation that Christ came through, and the sun, moon and stars symbolism from the OT furthers that identification of her as Israel, and not Mary, as the Catholic Church claims.

The rev 12 event will be at mid tribulation, in the future, since it gives a timeline of exactly 3.5 years that the Jews hide from the Antichrist.

Revelation gives that same 42 month timeline of the last half of the trib, aka the great tribulation, when it describes how long the beast is given power to make war on the saints, and institute the infamous mark of the beast.
 
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chad kincham

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The events in Revelation are tied to 42 months, a time/times/half time, 1260 days, 3 1/2 years.

Because that’s the timeline of the last half of the 7 year tribulation period, which is aka the great tribulation.

The first half is general tribulation, the last half is great tribulation - the beast is given power to make war on the saints and wear them out, and institute the mark of the beast, for 42 months, as an example.

Israel hides from the great dragon/Satan/Antichrist for 42 months in Rev 12.
 
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