Why do Christians never pray for impossible things?

cvanwey said:

I am using 'context.' If it is TRUE that God answers the call to prayer in healing, then you would virtually see the same ratio of healing for the common cold, as you do with cancer, amputees, Downs, acne, diabetes, cerebral palsy, and so on.... My logic is this...

IF God intervenes in the petitionary and intercessory requests to heal, then you would see the same amount of intervening, where it comes to amputees, cerebral palsy, and Downs, as you ALSO see with the claims to God's direct intervention for illnesses and conditions which are claimed to have had God's hand in the matter.

It's a simple observation, which exposes the conclusion that either:

a. God excludes any/all requests to cure the conditions in which humans cannot also 'fix' themselves, without prayer.
b. God does not answer the call to ANY healing, but answers prayer in other ways. Which means millions of claims to God's healing are simply mistaken, because God does not actually answer prayers to heal anything.
c. God exists, but does not intervene/interact at all, which then still renders prayer worthless; as we are essentially talking to a wall.
d. God is imaginary.

I see no other options... Please tell me which one appears most reasonable, while also applying the logic of Occam's razor...

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Again, you are making the assumption everything is “equal” and it is not. You say: “…you would see the same amount of intervening…” this is assuming everything else remains the same.

Remember: Jesus said: John 6:63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.

Christians are not here to make heaven on earth, so this messed up earth is to provide the very best situation for those who are willing to humbly accept God’s charity in the form of forgiveness.

At this time scientific verifiably miracles are not going to happen, for it takes away from the nonbeliever to best and easiest way to express faith, extend humility and accept charity. Again, this does not mean prays for healing do not work, just they cannot be scientifically verified.

If like you seem to think: “God is imaginary” which could explanation why miracles are not being scientifically verifiable today, but then all the miracles of life existing and this universe coming about have to be without God also.

cvanwey said:

Is prayer useful in requests for healing, or not? If no, then game over.

If yes, then the game is still over - for the ones whom pray for the cure of diseases and conditions for which we cannot cure ourselves.

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I keep saying: “Pray is very beneficial” mainly for the person doing the praying.

The “pray” is always for what is best for everyone involved.

There is no support for the “health and wealth” gospel.

You really cannot become a Christian if you motive is just a desire for a healthier and happier life in this world.

cvanwey said:

You mean like promising to come back some day? How much more does God need to be a witness to before He does so? And more logically, if everyone is going to drop to their knees and bow to Him anyways, why wait at all? In the end, we all look to Him anyways apparently.

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In a “Day of the Lord” like with: the destruction of Egypt, destruction of Babylon, destruction of Greece, destruction of Jerusalem and others, there is a judgement (punishment) given upon the people. They cannot depend on their wealth, their gods, their walls, their armies, and anything else, so they will be humbled and bow to God but it is to late, they had their chance. God does not accept “worship” by force and the same is true with the second coming.

cvanwey said:

I thought God can do anything, and will do anything when He wishes. I doubt 'science' is 'squelching' anything, where God's concerned. Many people did not believe, even before the scientific revolution. A matter of fact, 'science' would be a great method or way to demonstrate the power of prayer.

And again, why must we have 'faith' in God's existence? Why is belief, without sufficient evidence, or credulity, deemed as noble or more warranted by God?

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Knowledge of God is not faith in God.

It is not honorable, glorious, noble, worthy or even righteous for a nonbeliever to extend faith (without solid evidence) in the Creator of the Universe, it is humbling. As a nonbeliever if God provides you with “knowledge” of His existence, you can take pride in that. Do you have to feed pride?

So much here to unpack

bling said:

Again, you are making the assumption everything is “equal” and it is not. You say: “…you would see the same amount of intervening…” this is assuming everything else remains the same.

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You are trying to side step my direct and simple observation, by attempting to avoid the question, and/or distract away from the observation, by way of a false analogy. Again...

Does God answer the call to prayer in healing? Yes or no?

Many claim He does. Are they wrong? Yes or no?

If He does, then why does He skip the amputees, the ones with cerebral palsy, and with Downs, 100% of the time; but has no problem aiding in the cure or correction of conditions and illnesses for which we can somehow cure ourselves - time and time again?

Please actually answer this time...

bling said:

Remember: Jesus said: John 6:63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.

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This passage is irrelevant until you answer the repeatedly asked yes or no question(s).

bling said:

Christians are not here to make heaven on earth, so this messed up earth is to provide the very best situation for those who are willing to humbly accept God’s charity in the form of forgiveness.

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Does this mean Jesus does or does not ever answer the call to petitionary and intercessory requests in healing?

bling said:

At this time scientific verifiably miracles are not going to happen, for it takes away from the nonbeliever to best and easiest way to express faith, extend humility and accept charity. Again, this does not mean prays for healing do not work, just they cannot be scientifically verified.

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Problems detected here...

1. Where God's existence is concerned, does God actually favor credulity <over> belief backed by evidence? If so, then why does He provide direct revelation to many? Many whom were prior non-believers?

2. 'Science' has verified that amputees, cerebral palsy, and Downs syndrome have no medical reversal processes. If someone prayed, and any of these conditions were reversed, 'science' could NOT take any of the credit

3. If 'science' were ever to find a cure for any of these conditions, the very best rationalization a Christian might employ would be to assert that God did not want it cured, until now. Which would also mean God ignored each and every prior case, only to come to the rescue when 'science' solves the matter.

bling said:

If like you seem to think: “God is imaginary” which could explanation why miracles are not being scientifically verifiable today, but then all the miracles of life existing and this universe coming about have to be without God also.

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Why do you assume what I think? Maybe God is not interactive? Or, maybe God exists, but just not [your] God? Maybe this is why we do not appear to see [answered] prayers? Maybe He knows you are not praying to Him, because you do not think He exists; (you know.... Xenu, Apollo, etc..).

But yes, in identification with Occam's razor, the most plausible answers usually end up being the ones with the least amount of required additional assumptions

Thus, is it logical to conclude people are just talking to themselves, in prayer? Yes or no?

bling said:

I keep saying: “Pray is very beneficial” mainly for the person doing the praying.

The “pray” is always for what is best for everyone involved.

There is no support for the “health and wealth” gospel.

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Does this mean God does or does not answer the call to petitionary and intercessory prayers for healing? If He does, then why does He skip, with 100% certainty, the ones with missing limbs, cerebral palsy, and Downs syndrome? But He has no problem assisting in cures for conditions in which humans can also cure themselves?

bling said:

You really cannot become a Christian if you motive is just a desire for a healthier and happier life in this world.

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I would agree. Magic tricks is not why I would become a Christian. I would suppose that many become a Christian because they know the alternative is being thrown into a pit of fire forever. Ever hear of the term 'I'm a god fearing Christian.' ? Yea, this term exists. It exists in quite healthy doses from many

But I still cannot help but plainly observe that Jesus never answers the call to prayers, unless humans can solve the issue themselves in some way.

bling said:

In a “Day of the Lord” like with: the destruction of Egypt, destruction of Babylon, destruction of Greece, destruction of Jerusalem and others, there is a judgement (punishment) given upon the people. They cannot depend on their wealth, their gods, their walls, their armies, and anything else, so they will be humbled and bow to God but it is to late, they had their chance. God does not accept “worship” by force and the same is true with the second coming.

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This did not address my observation. I'll try again...

How much more does God need to watch before returning? If everyone is going to bow to Him anyways, why wait? There is no logical point.

And to address what you stated above...

God does seem to suggest worship by presenting a grave warning:

"15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."

Now tell me if this is similar to presenting a compulsory proposition, or maybe even a threat, ultimatum, or even coercion? Focus on what I underlined in the direct quote. God has the power to determine everyone's fate, no one else. The only alternative realm, away from Him, is complete misery? Talk about a false dichotomy... He has the power to create any environment, and chooses eternal bliss, or eternal torture. Odd....

bling said:

Knowledge of God is not faith in God.
It is not honorable, glorious, noble, worthy or even righteous for a nonbeliever to extend faith (without solid evidence) in the Creator of the Universe, it is humbling. As a nonbeliever if God provides you with “knowledge” of His existence, you can take pride in that. Do you have to feed pride?

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I disagree. It is credulity, and nothing more:

"a tendency to be too ready to believe that something is real or true".

What exactly do you mean by 'humbling'? If God provided revelation to me, of His existence, this might humble me. Why? I doubt He exists, and can find ample reason(s) why. If it was demonstrated to the contrary, I would likely eat 'humble pie.'

I tell you what... I'll ask you what I have asked many others here....

If God answers the call to prayer, please pray for God to demonstrate His existence to me, so I may humbly acknowledge He is for real, and not imaginary.

InterestedAtheist said:

Are you actually saying that God deliberately pays attention to who is praying, and deliberately choose to not answer prayers if doing so would then lead to His existence being proven?
May I suggest that you do not seem to be very familiar with the ways in which your fellow Christians think. I have been assured, many times, that there is evidence for God that demands a verdict; that there is a case for Christ; and that they don't have enough faith to be an atheist.

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It is not the person praying but mainly those nonbelievers around him, that need to extend faith.

The person praying from our contexts is assumed to be a Christian with the indwelling Holy Spirit as his/her guarantee. The Christian knows the Christian God not only exists, but Loves him/her, and will fulfill all God’s promises, because he/she has the Spirit.

OK, we are talking about pray, not what others think.

InterestedAtheist said:

Exactly. Yes, or no? Does prayer have any effect in healing?

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Yes
If I pray for a person to be healed if it is in the best interest of the Kingdom, God will listen to that pray and act accordingly. If I do not pray for a person’s healing, then I change the scenario and even though God would have healed him/her if I had prayed, so He will not heal the person because I need to see the need to pray. God is helping me at the cost of someone being physically hurt.


I keep saying: “Pray is very beneficial” mainly for the person doing the praying.

The “pray” is always for what is best for everyone involved, so the sick person may or may not get well, like Paul did not get well for his benefit.

There is no support for the “health and wealth” gospel.

You really cannot become a Christian if you motive is just a desire for a healthier and happier life in this world.

cvanwey said:

So much here to unpack



You are trying to side step my direct and simple observation, by attempting to avoid the question, and/or distract away from the observation, by way of a false analogy. Again...

Does God answer the call to prayer in healing? Yes or no?

Click to expand...

Yes

If I pray for a person to be healed if it is in the best interest of the Kingdom, God will listen to that pray and act accordingly. If I do not pray for a person’s healing, then I change the scenario and even though God would have healed him/her if I had prayed, He will not heal the person because I need to see the need to pray. God is helping me at the cost of someone being physically hurt.

cvanwey said:

Many claim He does. Are they wrong? Yes or no?

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Yes

“Many” pray for the wrong reason, the wrong God, and lack the commitment.

cvanwey said:

If He does, then why does He skip the amputees, the ones with cerebral palsy, and with Downs, 100% of the time; but has no problem aiding in the cure or correction of conditions and illnesses for which we can somehow cure ourselves - time and time again?

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Again, all prays should be for the best of the Kingdom. It is not in the best interest of the kingdom at this time to have scientific verifiable miracles (they passed away 1 Cor. 13:10).

cvanwey said:

Does this mean Jesus does or does not ever answer the call to petitionary and intercessory requests in healing?

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Jesus/God answers all prays, but a Christian puts the Kingdom’s interest first in all prays. God does heal and may not heal as a result of our praying or not praying.

cvanwey said:

1. Where God's existence is concerned, does God actually favor credulity <over> belief backed by evidence? If so, then why does He provide direct revelation to many? Many whom were prior non-believers?

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God does provide guaranteed evidence for His existence to all devout Christians in the form of the indwelling Holy Spirit. Nonbelieving Jews prior to the destruction of Jerusalem did have some miraculous miracles, but they are not like us today.

cvanwey said:

2. 'Science' has verified that amputees, cerebral palsy, and Downs syndrome have no medical reversal processes. If someone prayed, and any of these conditions were reversed, 'science' could NOT take any of the credit

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Right, but the problem is not with science “taking the credit”, but the credit having to be given by nonbelievers to the Christian God without them having faith in the Christian God.

cvanwey said:

3. If 'science' were ever to find a cure for any of these conditions, the very best rationalization a Christian might employ would be to assert that God did not want it cured, until now. Which would also mean God ignored each and every prior case, only to come to the rescue when 'science' solves the matter.

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What is the question?

cvanwey said:

Why do you assume what I think? Maybe God is not interactive? Or, maybe God exists, but just not [your] God? Maybe this is why we do not appear to see [answered] prayers? Maybe He knows you are not praying to Him, because you do not think He exists; (you know.... Xenu, Apollo, etc..).

But yes, in identification with Occam's razor, the most plausible answers usually end up being the ones with the least amount of required additional assumptions

Thus, is it logical to conclude people are just talking to themselves, in prayer? Yes or no?

Click to expand...

There is only one good motive and lots of wrong motives for pray.

As far as applying “Occam’s razor” analysis to God’s existence, you cannot just use seemingly unanswered pray, since God’s existence best explains lots of other stuff, and when you add the logical reasons for God not answering pray the way you think it should be, God does become the most likely alternative.

cvanwey said:

Does this mean God does or does not answer the call to petitionary and intercessory prayers for healing? If He does, then why does He skip, with 100% certainty, the ones with missing limbs, cerebral palsy, and Downs syndrome? But He has no problem assisting in cures for conditions in which humans can also cure themselves?

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I already addressed this, but I will also add humans do not always cure all conditions they seemingly might be able to, so can pray help when doctors might loss their patient?

cvanwey said:

I would agree. Magic tricks is not why I would become a Christian. I would suppose that many become a Christian because they know the alternative is being thrown into a pit of fire forever. Ever hear of the term 'I'm a god fearing Christian.' ? Yea, this term exists. It exists in quite healthy doses from many

But I still cannot help but plainly observe that Jesus never answers the call to prayers, unless humans can solve the issue themselves in some way.

Click to expand...

There are plenty of times; doctors have said, “we have done all we can, it is now up to powers beyond our abilities”.

Jesus is answering all calls that will help the Kingdom.

cvanwey said:

God does seem to suggest worship by presenting a grave warning:

"15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."

Click to expand...

cvanwey said:

Now tell me if this is similar to presenting a compulsory proposition, or maybe even a threat, ultimatum, or even coercion? Focus on what I underlined in the direct quote. God has the power to determine everyone's fate, no one else. The only alternative realm, away from Him, is complete misery? Talk about a false dichotomy... He has the power to create any environment, and chooses eternal bliss, or eternal torture. Odd....

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It is wonderful to humbly accept (bow your knees) before God now and receive charity from him, but what I was show from my references is there is a time coming in everyone’s life when it is to late to bow your knees humbly before God accepting His charity, since you are just bowing to His all powerful authority.

Actually, you are determining your own fate, God has just made the choice very easy, but the result is heaven or hell while the choice you make is accepting or rejecting His Love in the form of forgiveness.

This is off topic.

cvanwey said:

I disagree. It is credulity, and nothing more:

"a tendency to be too ready to believe that something is real or true".

What exactly do you mean by 'humbling'? If God provided revelation to me, of His existence, this might humble me. Why? I doubt He exists, and can find ample reason(s) why. If it was demonstrated to the contrary, I would likely eat 'humble pie.'

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A tree does that. What you are asking for is a miracle that scientifically requires the existence of the Christian God.

Would it be more humbling for you now, to come to a believe/trust in the existence of a benevolent Creator?

You say: “If God provided revelation to me…”, so what have you done and what would you do to deserve God providing you this request?

cvanwey said:

I tell you what... I'll ask you what I have asked many others here....

If God answers the call to prayer, please pray for God to demonstrate His existence to me, so I may humbly acknowledge He is for real, and not imaginary.

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God sure does not want you to “acknowledge” His existence and not make a huge change in your life, virtually just go on like you have been doing. It would be better for you go on believing He is imaginary and never to know He exist in this life, then to just acknowledge His existence.

What is “humble” about accepting the fact without faith, while not accepting a fact is stupid?

bling said:

Yes

If I pray for a person to be healed if it is in the best interest of the Kingdom, God will listen to that pray and act accordingly. If I do not pray for a person’s healing, then I change the scenario and even though God would have healed him/her if I had prayed, He will not heal the person because I need to see the need to pray. God is helping me at the cost of someone being physically hurt.

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Okay. Your answer is 'yes.' God does apparently answer the call to prayers in healing.

In the 'interest of the Kingdom', seems rather odd that many earnest prayer attempts are successful only when a cure or reversal can happen without God's direct intervention, doesn't it?

I find this observation a rather LARGE coincidence. How about you?

bling said:

Yes

“Many” pray for the wrong reason, the wrong God, and lack the commitment.

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Let's try this again, without more sidestepping. I will fine-tune the question, even further, so you do not find a way to wiggle out of it this time.

A person, whom has the correct understanding of the correct God, such as yourself for instance, prays to God to intervene/address/reverse/cure an amputee, cerebral palsy, and Downs syndrome. You also claim God answers the call to prayer in healing, as expressed above, when done correctly. Why is He skipping any/all CORRECT requests to aid in amputees, cerebral palsy, and Downs syndrome, but only aids in conditions for which we can address ourselves????

bling said:

God does provide guaranteed evidence for His existence to all devout Christians in the form of the indwelling Holy Spirit. Nonbelieving Jews prior to the destruction of Jerusalem did have some miraculous miracles, but they are not like us today.

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Oh, okay I'm not going to address this, and other topics below, as this is going off topic again But I'm sure you understand I could say plenty here and below

bling said:

Right, but the problem is not with science “taking the credit”, but the credit having to be given by nonbelievers to the Christian God without them having faith in the Christian God.

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If a Christian prayed for one of these three afflictions, and saw a reversal there-after, this would lead many to believe prayer actually works. As of now, we do not seem to have that....?

bling said:

There is only one good motive and lots of wrong motives for pray.

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Are you telling me not ONE correct motive has ever been implemented, while asking God to address amputees, cerebral palsy, and Downs?

bling said:

As far as applying “Occam’s razor” analysis to God’s existence, you cannot just use seemingly unanswered pray, since God’s existence best explains lots of other stuff, and when you add the logical reasons for God not answering pray the way you think it should be, God does become the most likely alternative.

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Even if I was to agree with you here, then we must apply additional assumptions.

- God states He answers all prayers, if performed correctly, including healing.
- God avoids any/all requests to answer prayers in which humans cannot solve or resolve themselves, but does not disclose as such
- God does not give any reasons, even though He tells all He answers prayer

Vs

- God exists but it's not the God you are worshiping

Vs

- God is imaginary, and people make up their own flavor of god(s)

Vs

- God exists, but does not intervene in our wishes

Which answer looks most fitting, in light of the fact of what you/yourself have just said prior: (i.e.) " “Many” pray for the wrong reason, the wrong God, and lack the commitment."

bling said:

humans do not always cure all conditions they seemingly might be able to, so can pray help when doctors might loss their patient?

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Sure, but amputees, cerebral palsy, and Downs have never been cured in any way. Does this mean not one 'correct' prayer request has been applied? But alternatively, many have been 'correctly performed' in regards to the many conditions and illnesses for which have been cured?

bling said:

There are plenty of times; doctors have said, “we have done all we can, it is now up to powers beyond our abilities”.

Jesus is answering all calls that will help the Kingdom.

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Medicine is called a practice for a reason. Wrong diagnoses and human error is inevitable. Medicine does not claim perfection, but often times gives odds for success. As expressed prior:

Jesus never answers the call to prayers, unless humans can solve the issue themselves in some way.

bling said:

God sure does not want you to “acknowledge” His existence and not make a huge change in your life, virtually just go on like you have been doing. It would be better for you go on believing He is imaginary and never to know He exist in this life, then to just acknowledge His existence.

What is “humble” about accepting the fact without faith, while not accepting a fact is stupid?

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How do you know any of this? Sounds to me like you are trying poison the well, about this entire topic, so you do not have to place your money where your mouth is?.?.?.?

Does this mean you are not going to pray for God to provide me with revelation, in accordance with your correct processes?

InterestedAtheist said:

Great. So you do believe that prayers for healing can actually result in healing, as a result of the prayer.
Very good.

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No that is not what I said at all. I said my prays have an effect on God who will heal or will not do the healing, my prays do not heal people, since God does the healing. My not praying could result in the person not being healed, so my praying for healing, if it be best for the Kingdom, will not keep God from healing the person because of me. The person may not be healed, because that is not best for the kingdom.

InterestedAtheist said:

So now the question becomes - as @cvanwey put it - why are there never any reports of amputees being healed? Or, as I put it, why do Christians never pray for, and never receive, any healings that could not have come about by chance?

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Again, it is not in your best interest and/or in the best interest of other nonbelievers to have scientific proof for the Christian God’s existence. There can be healings that do take place that could not have happened by “chance”, but cannot be scientifically proven.

InterestedAtheist said:

Yes, I get it - God is not a subject in a lab. We can't test Him. You have to pray in pure faith. Fine. but what about those people who do pray in pure faith? Why do we not have evidence of their prayers being answered?

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“Those people” have the indwelling Holy Spirit as solid proof of God’s existence, while answered prays were not given as our guarantee.

InterestedAtheist said:

We get lots - and I mean LOTS - of stories from Christians about prayers for healing being answered. We know that Christians pray to God for these things, and we are told that their prayers are answered. But since all the examples we have are either unconfirmed (meaning we can't say for sure if they ever actually happened) or could have happened naturally (meaning, there's no way we can say that they didn't) we are left with no confirmed cases of God healing. And that is strange, because there should be confirmed cases of God healing people in answer to prayer; you would expect these things to pop up now and again.

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The gift of miraculous healing ability, passed away (1Cor. 13:10), but praying for healing that can better the Kingdom does continue.

I join you in being very skeptical of these healing stories, especially when I do not see good coming to the Kingdom because of these supposed healings.

Again, I work with Christians in Communist China, who are needing lots of help I cannot provide, imprisoned, having poor health care, persecuted, taken advantaged of, and under great threats from the government, yet they grow stronger each week, happy for the fellowship and their numbers continue to increase. Do you think it would help the Kingdom, if I should pray for the persecution to stop?

I know handicapped Christians that see their handicaps as blessings, in their Kingdom work.

cvanwey said:

Okay. Your answer is 'yes.' God does apparently answer the call to prayers in healing.

In the 'interest of the Kingdom', seems rather odd that many earnest prayer attempts are successful only when a cure or reversal can happen without God's direct intervention, doesn't it?

I find this observation a rather LARGE coincidence. How about you?

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Again, there is a very logical reason, why someone today is not miraculously healed in a way it can scientifically be shown it had to be from God.

cvanwey said:

Let's try this again, without more sidestepping. I will fine-tune the question, even further, so you do not find a way to wiggle out of it this time.

Click to expand...

cvanwey said:

A person, whom has the correct understanding of the correct God, such as yourself for instance, prays to God to intervene/address/reverse/cure an amputee, cerebral palsy, and Downs syndrome. You also claim God answers the call to prayer in healing, as expressed above, when done correctly. Why is He skipping any/all CORRECT requests to aid in amputees, cerebral palsy, and Downs syndrome, but only aids in conditions for which we can address ourselves????

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I know I do not have the gift of miraculous heal, since it has passed away (1 Cor. 13:10), I do pray for the best that can come from this tragedy will come and ask for what I can do to help it come about. I do not pray for a child with Down Syndrome to be healed after it has been scientifically shown the person has Down Syndrome.

I know from scripture and my own experiences that scientific proof does not automatically result in the person humbly accepting God’s charity as charity.

Again, it is not in your best interest and/or in the best interest of other nonbelievers to have scientific proof for the Christian God’s existence. There can be healings that do take place that could not have happened by “chance”, but cannot be scientifically proven.

cvanwey said:

If a Christian prayed for one of these three afflictions, and saw a reversal there-after, this would lead many to believe prayer actually works. As of now, we do not seem to have that....?

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Wow, you get fleshly benefits when you ask for them and this will result in people praying for “what”?

cvanwey said:

Are you telling me not ONE correct motive has ever been implemented, while asking God to address amputees, cerebral palsy, and Downs?

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Right, if that is all they are asking for. When a Christian sees a need (opportunity) they need to cease the opportunity, which might not result in the opportunity going away, but actually expanding.

The person with cerebral palsy or Down Syndrome is an opportunity which I am familiar with, but it is more in helping the care takers or becoming a care taker where the help is needed. You can learn a lot about Love from those care takers.

Let me take this a step further; the reason there are so many hurting people including the three groups you mention, is not due to bad luck, God’s hardness, evil in the world, bad genes, or lots of other stuff, but it is because of me. I personally need lots of opportunities close around me to get me off my easy chair and out helping others. I need the true joy of helping others, I learn so much, I see God working through all of it and the results are there. Can you see how a simple pray for healing and the person being healed, takes away from the joy of personally actively serving?

Again, it is not in your best interest and/or in the best interest of other nonbelievers to have scientific proof for the Christian God’s existence. There can be healings that do take place that could not have happened by “chance”, but cannot be scientifically proven.

cvanwey said:

Even if I was to agree with you here, then we must apply additional assumptions.

- God states He answers all prayers, if performed correctly, including healing.
- God avoids any/all requests to answer prayers in which humans cannot solve or resolve themselves, but does not disclose as such
- God does not give any reasons, even though He tells all He answers prayer

Vs

- God exists but it's not the God you are worshiping

Vs

- God is imaginary, and people make up their own flavor of god(s)

Vs

- God exists, but does not intervene in our wishes

Which answer looks most fitting, in light of the fact of what you/yourself have just said prior: (i.e.) " “Many” pray for the wrong reason, the wrong God, and lack the commitment."

Click to expand...

Look at previous answer,

cvanwey said:

Sure, but amputees, cerebral palsy, and Downs have never been cured in any way. Does this mean not one 'correct' prayer request has been applied? But alternatively, many have been 'correctly performed' in regards to the many conditions and illnesses for which have been cured?

Click to expand...

If anyone is praying for a scientifically provable healing, they are not praying correctly.

cvanwey said:

Medicine is called a practice for a reason. Wrong diagnoses and human error is inevitable. Medicine does not claim perfection, but often times gives odds for success. As expressed prior:

Jesus never answers the call to prayers, unless humans can solve the issue themselves in some way.

Click to expand...

That is not true and there is plenty of scripture that shows even people raised from the dead before 70 AD.

cvanwey said:

How do you know any of this? Sounds to me like you are trying poison the well, about this entire topic, so you do not have to place your money where your mouth is?.?.?.?

Does this mean you are not going to pray for God to provide me with revelation, in accordance with your correct processes?

Click to expand...

I would not ask God to take away your free will choice, which will allow you to become like God Himself.

I'm going to start streamlining here....

bling said:

I know I do not have the gift of miraculous heal, since it has passed away (1 Cor. 13:10), I do pray for the best that can come from this tragedy will come and ask for what I can do to help it come about. I do not pray for a child with Down Syndrome to be healed after it has been scientifically shown the person has Down Syndrome.

I know from scripture and my own experiences that scientific proof does not automatically result in the person humbly accepting God’s charity as charity.

Again, it is not in your best interest and/or in the best interest of other nonbelievers to have scientific proof for the Christian God’s existence. There can be healings that do take place that could not have happened by “chance”, but cannot be scientifically proven.

Click to expand...

Sounds like, in a round-about way, you are stating that if 'science' determines a disease or condition cannot be cured, God is not going to bother to cure any such requests to do so either?

And again, not quite sure why you keep speaking about 'humility'?

I already acknowledged that verified and answered prayer would not get me to worship God. It would only make me no longer ask Christians, like you, why God never seems to answer the call to prayers for which we cannot already address/rectify ourselves.

bling said:

Right, if that is all they are asking for.

Click to expand...

You seem to be tripping over yourself here. I asked: "Are you telling me not ONE correct motive has ever been implemented, while asking God to address amputees, cerebral palsy, and Downs?"

Who says this is ALL they are ever asking for? I already acknowledged they must be 'correct' requests. You stated God sometimes answers the call to prayers in healing. If this is the case, you would, once in a while, see cures for conditions for which we humans cannot cure or reverse ourselves. But we do not. Coincidence?

bling said:

If anyone is praying for a scientifically provable healing, they are not praying correctly.

Click to expand...

Bingo! Thank you for this answer. Let's explore...

Sounds to me like you are saying.... If anyone ever prays for a cure for conditions or illnesses which 'science' cannot currently resolve, then that Christian is not praying right. Sounds like Christians can only pray for the healing in diseases and conditions which we can also resolve, address, or cure ourselves.

bling said:

That is not true and there is plenty of scripture that shows even people raised from the dead before 70 AD.

Click to expand...

Oh, you mean when there exists absolutely no tangible way of demonstration to such claims? I again reiterate:

Jesus never answers the call to prayers, unless humans can solve the issue themselves in some way.

And apparently, what I'm gathering from you, is that before and during Jesus's time, He did all the time. But now, only answers prayers in healing for the circumstances we can also address ourselves, in one form or another. Got it.

bling said:

I would not ask God to take away your free will choice, which will allow you to become like God Himself.

Click to expand...

You will not pray for God to reveal Himself to me, because you do not want to take away my freewill?

Like I stated to you many posts ago, knowing He exists does nothing to remove my freewill. Heck, look at satan, a third of the angles, Sal of Tarsus, doubting Thomas, just for starters.

How do you know I would not take a liking to Him, if only someone whom prays correctly, like you, would introduce us?

cvanwey said:

Sounds like, in a round-about way, you are stating that if 'science' determines a disease or condition cannot be cured, God is not going to bother to cure any such requests to do so either?

Click to expand...

No Christian should be making a request to have a scientifically verifiable miracle that could be used to proof the existence of God. God is very concerned about severe disabilities, so Christians should do all they can to help care for these individuals and their care takers.

cvanwey said:

And again, not quite sure why you keep speaking about 'humility'?

Click to expand...

The Bible talks a lot about humility and pride.

cvanwey said:

I already acknowledged that verified and answered prayer would not get me to worship God. It would only make me no longer ask Christians, like you, why God never seems to answer the call to prayers for which we cannot already address/rectify ourselves.

Click to expand...

OK, but I do not mind you asking.

cvanwey said:

Who says this is ALL they are ever asking for? I already acknowledged they must be 'correct' requests. You stated God sometimes answers the call to prayers in healing. If this is the case, you would, once in a while, see cures for conditions for which we humans cannot cure or reverse ourselves. But we do not. Coincidence?

Click to expand...

The correct way to ask includes “Not my will but You’re will be done” and really what is best for the “Kingdom”. Those prays are answered.

cvanwey said:

Bingo! Thank you for this answer. Let's explore...

Sounds to me like you are saying.... If anyone ever prays for a cure for conditions or illnesses which 'science' cannot currently resolve, then that Christian is not praying right. Sounds like Christians can only pray for the healing in diseases and conditions which we can also resolve, address, or cure ourselves.

Click to expand...

The correct way a request pray is asked includes “Not my will but You’re will be done” and really what is best for the “Kingdom”. Those prays are answered.

Unfortunately, we need Christians who are physically poor, disabled, handicapped, in prison, facing death, serving as frontline care takers, under severe persecution and poorly educated, to provide examples of how Christ (a Christ like person) reacts to the situation/witnessing to others. I have learned a great deal from Christians in these situations, but also want to help them out of the situation. They have had a much greater attitude toward our short time here on earth then I have.

cvanwey said:

Oh, you mean when there exists absolutely no tangible way of demonstration to such claims? I again reiterate:

Jesus never answers the call to prayers, unless humans can solve the issue themselves in some way.

And apparently, what I'm gathering from you, is that before and during Jesus's time, He did all the time. But now, only answers prayers in healing for the circumstances we can also address ourselves, in one form or another. Got it.

Click to expand...

You cannot say God was not involved when a person is healed by medicine and Doctors, so that is just your assumption.

cvanwey said:

You will not pray for God to reveal Himself to me, because you do not want to take away my freewill?

Like I stated to you many posts ago, knowing He exists does nothing to remove my freewill. Heck, look at satan, a third of the angles, Sal of Tarsus, doubting Thomas, just for starters.

How do you know I would not take a liking to Him, if only someone whom prays correctly, like you, would introduce us?

Click to expand...

We have lots of examples in scriptures of people experiencing unquestionable miracles and not becoming obedient children. (Like those Jews, who left Egypt and only two entered the Promised Land).

Why would you be happy to be proven, wrong?

Satan and a third of the angels new God existed, so how did that help them? Two thirds of the angels stayed on God’s side, but it was not because they knew He existed, so why did they stay?

There is only one autonomous free will choice you need to make and it has to have a real likely alternative to be truly a choice. Not being absolutely sure of God’s existence, allows you the likely choice of pursuing the perceived pleasures of sin for a season without the burden of knowing your going to hell. Not being absolutely certain of God’s existence allows you to humble yourself (not by being forced into humility by knowledge of God) to the point of trusting (faith) in a benevolent Creator to help you resolve the burden created by sin.

InterestedAtheist said:

Yes. That's exactly what I said. You believe that people can pray to God for healing, and that their prayers will sometimes be answered. So the question from @cvanwey and I stands: why do we not see evidence of these miraculous healings?

Click to expand...

The correct way a request pray is asked includes “Not my will but You’re will be done” and really what is best for the “Kingdom”. Those prays are answered.

We have lots of examples in scriptures of people experiencing unquestionable miracles and not becoming obedient children. (Like those Jews, who left Egypt and only two entered the Promised Land).

There is only one autonomous free will choice you need to make and it has to have a real likely alternative to be truly a choice. Not being absolutely sure of God’s existence, allows you the likely choice of pursuing the perceived pleasures of sin for a season without the burden of knowing your going to hell. Not being absolutely certain of God’s existence allows you to humble yourself (not by being forced into humility by knowledge of God) to the point of trusting (faith) in a benevolent Creator to help you resolve the burden created by sin.

InterestedAtheist said:

Good. Let's see some evidence of them, then. You say they exist? Well, some of them should be being reported somewhere.

Click to expand...

Again, it is not in your best interest and/or in the best interest of other nonbelievers to have scientific proof for the Christian God’s existence. There can be healings that do take place that could not have happened by “chance”, but cannot be scientifically proven.

InterestedAtheist said:

We're not asking for them. All we're doing is saying that if Christians such as yourself do say that healings occur, we are surprised that we never see them.

Click to expand...

Again, it is not in your best interest and/or in the best interest of other nonbelievers to have scientific proof for the Christian God’s existence. There can be healings that do take place that could not have happened by “chance”, but cannot be scientifically proven.

InterestedAtheist said:

Good. That's fine. So where is this healing that takes place?
If we were to do some kind of thorough survey of hospitals, would we find, for example, that Christians tend to recover quicker than non-Christians? That they have some kind of statistical advantage? You did tell us that you believe prayers for healing can be effective.
Look at it like this: two people are rolling dice, you and me. My dice is a "fair" one. Yours is weighted to come up 6. This is analagous to a Christian praying, and sometimes having his prayers answered, whereas my prayers are never answered because I never make any!
When I roll my dice, I have a 1/6 chance of getting a 6 and winning the game. When you roll the dice, however, you have a larger than 1/6 chance, because your dice are weighted. This is analagous to how the Christian lives - or should live, if you are correct in saying that Christian prayers are sometimes answered.
Christians may not always receive divine assistance in healing. But they sometimes do - you claim - whereas non-Christians never do. Therefore, statistically, we should see a difference in results.

Click to expand...

Unfortunately, we need Christians who are physically poor, disabled, handicapped, in prison, facing death, serving as frontline care takers, under severe persecution and poorly educated, to provide examples of how Christ (a Christ like person) reacts to the situation/witnessing to others. I have learned a great deal from Christians in these situations, but also want to help them out of the situation. They have had a much greater attitude toward our short time here on earth then I have.

Christians do not just pray for Christians to be healed and Christians can become sick to provide an opportunity to show Christ living through them in tough times.

Let’s just say: “an overwhelming percentage of Christians were much healthier and wealthier than non-Christians”, how would you keep people from wanting to be a Christian for the wealth and health?

InterestedAtheist said:

So what's the good of praying to God for things at all? Are all the Christians on the Prayer Wall and all over the world who are praying for things doing it all wrong? You yourself said that your prayers have an effect on God.
Your story of Christians in China is just one example. Yes, you believe that oppression is good for them (ugh, by the way - poor people!)
But isn't it possible there might be a better way for them? Wouldn't it be great if the Chinese government would change its stance and allow Christians to worship freely? Do you ever pray for that?

Click to expand...

I pray for the best for the Kingdom, but do see how it might not be best, for persecution to go away in China. I will go on and say, I do not think it is best for you to see many hypocritical Christians in the West, saying: “I am a Christians”. Severe persecution does tend to weed out the hypocrites and leave only the truly committed (strong examples of Christ).

InterestedAtheist said:

And I know Christians who pray to God and ask for healing because they get toothache.

Click to expand...

OK, does the pain go away?

bling said:

No Christian should be making a request to have a scientifically verifiable miracle that could be used to proof the existence of God. God is very concerned about severe disabilities, so Christians should do all they can to help care for these individuals and their care takers.

Click to expand...

I don't think you have read virtually anything I have been writing?.?.?

Christians pray for healing all the time. You state God answers prayer in healing. Many are not doing it to say, 'see, I told you so, God exists.'

Many claim God cured them of their cancer, just for example. We have many many many cases of these anecdotal testimonials. Many say so, not to prove to 'atheists' that God exists, but merely to give the glory to God for sparing them.

So I state, yet again....

Seems quite coincidental, that God is aiding in the cure for cancer, quite often, but not aiding in the conditions for which humans cannot resolve themselves, like amputees, cerebral palsy, and Downs.

I'm merely making an observation. Do you find this quite coincidental as well?

bling said:

The Bible talks a lot about humility and pride.

Click to expand...

I'm sure it does. But it is not relevant to this conversation. So please stop bringing 'humility' into this discussion

bling said:

OK, but I do not mind you asking.

Click to expand...

Great, then I'll ask again, and maybe you will address appropriately this time.?.?.?

Why does God never seem to answer the call to prayers, for which we cannot already address/rectify ourselves, all-the-while, God does seem to do so for conditions and illnesses we humans can address ourselves?

bling said:

The correct way to ask includes “Not my will but You’re will be done” and really what is best for the “Kingdom”. Those prays are answered.

Click to expand...

Yet again, you state God answers the call to prayers in healing. He seems to heal many, but only of the illnesses and conditions we can address ourselves --- but not amputees, cerebral palsy, and Downs. Why does He always exclude these three?

bling said:

The correct way a request pray is asked includes “Not my will but You’re will be done” and really what is best for the “Kingdom”. Those prays are answered.

Click to expand...

Looks as though if you have a condition for which we humans cannot resolve ourselves, it is not correct to ask God either. Am I following you here?

bling said:

Unfortunately, we need Christians who are physically poor, disabled, handicapped, in prison, facing death, serving as frontline care takers, under severe persecution and poorly educated, to provide examples of how Christ (a Christ like person) reacts to the situation/witnessing to others. I have learned a great deal from Christians in these situations, but also want to help them out of the situation. They have had a much greater attitude toward our short time here on earth then I have.

Click to expand...

But again, we do not need every single one of them to stay in that situation. Many pray for healing. God looks to ignore or skip every single request to reverse amputees, cerebral palsy, and Downs, but looks to quite often aid in conditions for which we humans can address ourselves. Coincidence?

bling said:

You cannot say God was not involved when a person is healed by medicine and Doctors, so that is just your assumption.

Click to expand...

Yes I can. Prayers looks to never help the ones praying for restoration in a missing limb, reversal of cerebral palsy, or of Downs. We could rule out that the human can help themselves in such cases. If such a person stated they prayed to God for healing, and they later grow back their limb, no longer have cerebral palsy, or no longer have Downs, then this might demonstrate powers from beyond.

But telling skeptics this only happened thousands of years ago, with no way to verify, will get us nowhere fast.

bling said:

We have lots of examples in scriptures of people experiencing unquestionable miracles and not becoming obedient children. (Like those Jews, who left Egypt and only two entered the Promised Land).

Why would you be happy to be proven, wrong?

Click to expand...

Because then I would know I was not merely talking to myself for decades. But I would still have the freewill or free choice to either accept Him or reject Him, if I knew He was for real.

Now are you going to pray for God to provide me with revelation? If not, why not?

bling said:

Satan and a third of the angels new God existed, so how did that help them? Two thirds of the angels stayed on God’s side, but it was not because they knew He existed, so why did they stay?

There is only one autonomous free will choice you need to make and it has to have a real likely alternative to be truly a choice. Not being absolutely sure of God’s existence, allows you the likely choice of pursuing the perceived pleasures of sin for a season without the burden of knowing your going to hell. Not being absolutely certain of God’s existence allows you to humble yourself (not by being forced into humility by knowledge of God) to the point of trusting (faith) in a benevolent Creator to help you resolve the burden created by sin.

Click to expand...

Answer me a simple question please.... Do you find it logical or illogical to interact with an agent for which you doubt even exists?

cvanwey said:

I don't think you have read virtually anything I have been writing?.?.?

Click to expand...

Yes I do.

cvanwey said:

Christians pray for healing all the time. You state God answers prayer in healing. Many are not doing it to say, 'see, I told you so, God exists.'

Many claim God cured them of their cancer, just for example. We have many many many cases of these anecdotal testimonials. Many say so, not to prove to 'atheists' that God exists, but merely to give the glory to God for sparing them.

So I state, yet again....

Seems quite coincidental, that God is aiding in the cure for cancer, quite often, but not aiding in the conditions for which humans cannot resolve themselves, like amputees, cerebral palsy, and Downs.

I'm merely making an observation.

Click to expand...

cvanwey said:

Do you find this quite coincidental as well?

Click to expand...

No, it is totally logical given the difference between scientifically provable obvious outward miracles and miracles that cannot be scientifically verified.

cvanwey said:

I'm sure it does. But it is not relevant to this conversation. So please stop bringing 'humility' into this discussion

Click to expand...

cvanwey said:

Great, then I'll ask again, and maybe you will address appropriately this time.?.?.?

Why does God never seem to answer the call to prayers, for which we cannot already address/rectify ourselves, all-the-while, God does seem to do so for conditions and illnesses we humans can address ourselves?



Yet again, you state God answers the call to prayers in healing. He seems to heal many, but only of the illnesses and conditions we can address ourselves --- but not amputees, cerebral palsy, and Downs. Why does He always exclude these three?



But again, we do not need every single one of them to stay in that situation. Many pray for healing. God looks to ignore or skip every single request to reverse amputees, cerebral palsy, and Downs, but looks to quite often aid in conditions for which we humans can address ourselves. Coincidence?



Yes I can. Prayers looks to never help the ones praying for restoration in a missing limb, reversal of cerebral palsy, or of Downs. We could rule out that the human can help themselves in such cases. If such a person stated they prayed to God for healing, and they later grow back their limb, no longer have cerebral palsy, or no longer have Downs, then this might demonstrate powers from beyond.

Click to expand...

God does not, because of the huge problem such miracles would cause for nonbelievers.


Let’s try another approach to the question:


Suppose God communicated to all devout Christians who spread the word: that the Christian God of the Bible was going to cure all: Down Syndrome, cerebral palsy and instantly grow back any missing limbs of people at 2PM on Friday. And it all happened just as He promised:

1. Would this result in there being over 6 billion Christians on earth, assuming 6 billion people acknowledge the existence of the Christian God? (realizing some people are too young and other just want to remain stupid).

2. “Christian” is a descriptive term and not a title, so would God consider this 6 Billion+ people Christian, just because they acknowledged His existence?

3. If these 6 billion+ people started: reading their bible, going to church every week, and were baptized, would that make them all Christians in God’s eyes?

4. We know; God judges the hearts of people (their attitude and motive) and not their “knowledge” or even their actions, to determine followers and their hearts determine their being saved Christians. Knowing the Christian God of the Bible is real, also means judgement is real, hell is real, and we are to Love God and others with an unbelievable beyond human ability Love. How can these people, who just acknowledged God’s existence, “trust” their motives to be pure?

5. Knowledge of God, hell and judgement is frighting in many ways, so would most of these 6 billion+ people do stuff out of fear of Judgement, hell and realizing God knows their hearts?

6. Is worship out of fear, a righteous motivation? And if it is not, how do you go from just knowledge of God’s existence to a loving “trust” (have faith) in God’s Love, without starting with trust and acceptance of God’s Love?

7. Knowing your own life history and if you saw this miracle, why would you not fear this God?

cvanwey said:

Because then I would know I was not merely talking to myself for decades. But I would still have the freewill or free choice to either accept Him or reject Him, if I knew He was for real.

Now are you going to pray for God to provide me with revelation? If not, why not?

Click to expand...

If I have any seemingly “bad” condition it is there for a reason to help me and/or others to do something good in the future.
You are saying: “I would still have the freewill or free choice to either accept Him or reject Him, if I knew He was for real.”, but would you not have to be truly unwise to reject God’s existence, if you knew he was real? (How do you do that?)

If you knew for certain the Christian God of the Bible is real, what would keep you from believing He will judge the hearts of men for heaven or hell?

Would you have a fear about rejecting this God?

cvanwey said:

Answer me a simple question please.... Do you find it logical or illogical to interact with an agent for which you doubt even exists?

Click to expand...

I found it very humbling to trust in the existence of a benevolent Creator, but given the situation I was in, it was the most logical thing to do, since there was no other way around my spiraling down to the pigsty of life.

bling said:

No, it is totally logical given the difference between scientifically provable obvious outward miracles and miracles that cannot be scientifically verified.

Click to expand...

Your assertion carries no merit. If God answers the call to healing prayers, He would once in a while cure an amputee, person with cerebral palsy, or Downs. The Bible places no forward 'qualifiers' for excluding answers to prayers which cannot be resolved on our own.

bling said:

God does not, because of the huge problem such miracles would cause for nonbelievers.

Click to expand...

As I stated well before, it would be irrelevant. God performing <provable> magic tricks would not cause a problem. All it would verify, is that the Bible is correct in it's assertions that a God is actually answering prayers. Nothing more...

bling said:

Let’s try another approach to the question:

Click to expand...

You will find this approach irrelevant, but okay

bling said:

Suppose God communicated to all devout Christians who spread the word: that the Christian God of the Bible was going to cure all: Down Syndrome, cerebral palsy and instantly grow back any missing limbs of people at 2PM on Friday. And it all happened just as He promised:

1. Would this result in there being over 6 billion Christians on earth, assuming 6 billion people acknowledge the existence of the Christian God? (realizing some people are too young and other just want to remain stupid).

2. “Christian” is a descriptive term and not a title, so would God consider this 6 Billion+ people Christian, just because they acknowledged His existence?

3. If these 6 billion+ people started: reading their bible, going to church every week, and were baptized, would that make them all Christians in God’s eyes?

4. We know; God judges the hearts of people (their attitude and motive) and not their “knowledge” or even their actions, to determine followers and their hearts determine their being saved Christians. Knowing the Christian God of the Bible is real, also means judgement is real, hell is real, and we are to Love God and others with an unbelievable beyond human ability Love. How can these people, who just acknowledged God’s existence, “trust” their motives to be pure?

5. Knowledge of God, hell and judgement is frighting in many ways, so would most of these 6 billion+ people do stuff out of fear of Judgement, hell and realizing God knows their hearts?

6. Is worship out of fear, a righteous motivation? And if it is not, how do you go from just knowledge of God’s existence to a loving “trust” (have faith) in God’s Love, without starting with trust and acceptance of God’s Love?

7. Knowing your own life history and if you saw this miracle, why would you not fear this God?

Click to expand...

The answer is no to most of them. But it is irrelevant questioning because this is not why I asked. Devout Christians ask God for cures. They claim God sometimes answers. Many of whom are not asking to prove to a skeptic that He is answering. They are instead seeking a personal communicative dialogue with God, and asking for His direct intervention. But it seems the intervention only comes, when we can 'resolve' the issues ourselves in some way or sort.

I'm simply making the observation that God never seems to answer the call to prayers, unless we can also solve such requests on our own. Hence, it's likely we humans are merely speaking to ourselves, and self-fulfilling our own destinies - by way of connecting the dots. Or, accepting the hits, and ignoring the misses.... And that such a stated God, asserted from the Bible directly, is likely only imaginary. Again, basic observation here....

Are we on the same page now.?.?.?.?

bling said:

If I have any seemingly “bad” condition it is there for a reason to help me and/or others to do something good in the future.
You are saying: “I would still have the freewill or free choice to either accept Him or reject Him, if I knew He was for real.”, but would you not have to be truly unwise to reject God’s existence, if you knew he was real? (How do you do that?)

If you knew for certain the Christian God of the Bible is real, what would keep you from believing He will judge the hearts of men for heaven or hell?

Would you have a fear about rejecting this God?

Click to expand...

This response leads me to believe you are simply providing ad hoc/post hoc excuses for reasons you will not pray to God for me. It doubt you are more-so concerned with the questions you have now presented, but instead know that your prayer will go unanswered. Which, again, aligns with the OP.

Why not just pray to God to contact me, and let Him and I sort things out?

cvanwey said:

Your assertion carries no merit. If God answers the call to healing prayers, He would once in a while cure an amputee, person with cerebral palsy, or Downs. The Bible places no forward 'qualifiers' for excluding answers to prayers which cannot be resolved on our own.

Click to expand...

Where do you get the idea: Christians control God by them praying?

The “qualifier” is God will never do, that which is not best for the individual and the Kingdom.

cvanwey said:

As I stated well before, it would be irrelevant. God performing <provable> magic tricks would not cause a problem. All it would verify, is that the Bible is correct in it's assertions that a God is actually answering prayers. Nothing more...



You will find this approach irrelevant, but okay



The answer is no to most of them. But it is irrelevant questioning because this is not why I asked. Devout Christians ask God for cures. They claim God sometimes answers. Many of whom are not asking to prove to a skeptic that He is answering. They are instead seeking a personal communicative dialogue with God, and asking for His direct intervention. But it seems the intervention only comes, when we can 'resolve' the issues ourselves in some way or sort.

I'm simply making the observation that God never seems to answer the call to prayers, unless we can also solve such requests on our own. Hence, it's likely we humans are merely speaking to ourselves, and self-fulfilling our own destinies - by way of connecting the dots. Or, accepting the hits, and ignoring the misses.... And that such a stated God, asserted from the Bible directly, is likely only imaginary. Again, basic observation here....

Are we on the same page now.?.?.?.?

Click to expand...

You have accused me of not reading your posts, yet you are not addressing my questions which cannot all be answered with a “no”.

If you addressed my questions you would realize they provide one reason for: “Why God does not provide obvious outward miracles that can scientifically proof His existence.” Which is what you keep asking for.

cvanwey said:

This response leads me to believe you are simply providing ad hoc/post hoc excuses for reasons you will not pray to God for me. It doubt you are more-so concerned with the questions you have now presented, but instead know that your prayer will go unanswered. Which, again, aligns with the OP.

Click to expand...

cvanwey said:

Why not just pray to God to contact me, and let Him and I sort things out?

Click to expand...

I am not going to pray for God to do something that is not in your best interest and you’re not addressing my questions just proves the request you are making is not in your best interest. Answer the questions and allow me to see how it would be in your best interest.

InterestedAtheist said:

I think, with compliments to cvanwey, that I'll just quote him in response. I think he puts it much better than me, and says everything I would wish to say.
I think doing this addresses the point of our discussion, but let me know if there's any specific issue you'd like me to address.

Click to expand...

Address the questions please:

Suppose God communicated to all devout Christians who spread the word: that the Christian God of the Bible was going to cure all: Down Syndrome, cerebral palsy and instantly grow back any missing limbs of people at 2PM on Friday. And it all happened just as He promised:

1. Would this result in there being over 6 billion Christians on earth, assuming 6 billion people acknowledge the existence of the Christian God? (realizing some people are too young and other just want to remain stupid).

2. “Christian” is a descriptive term and not a title, so would God consider this 6 Billion+ people Christian, just because they acknowledged His existence?

3. If these 6 billion+ people started: reading their bible, going to church every week, and were baptized, would that make them all Christians in God’s eyes?

4. We know; God judges the hearts of people (their attitude and motive) and not their “knowledge” or even their actions, to determine followers and their hearts determine their being saved Christians. Knowing the Christian God of the Bible is real, also means judgement is real, hell is real, and we are to Love God and others with an unbelievable beyond human ability Love. How can these people, who just acknowledged God’s existence, “trust” their motives to be pure?

5. Knowledge of God, hell and judgement is frighting in many ways, so would most of these 6 billion+ people do stuff out of fear of Judgement, hell and realizing God knows their hearts?

6. Is worship out of fear, a righteous motivation? And if it is not, how do you go from just knowledge of God’s existence to a loving “trust” (have faith) in God’s Love, without starting with trust and acceptance of God’s Love?

7. Knowing your own life history and if you saw this miracle, why would you not fear this God?

InterestedAtheist said:

Exactly. This is what we would expect to see, if the Christians claims (such as your own) about a miracle-working, prayer-answering God were true.

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The “qualifier” is God will never do, that which is not best for the individual and the Kingdom.

InterestedAtheist said:

Quite so. You say that there would be undesirable consequences to God proving His existence; but you refute your own argument. First, as you yourself pointed out, people have seen "undeniable" miracles (at least, in stories) and were not persuaded. Second, God has been happy to work such miracles before, many times.

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The only “stories” I know to be true are those in scripture before the destruction of Jerusalem. People back even before Christ came to earth, saw lots of “undeniable” to them miracles with just; the sun rising, stars, the moon, rain, earth quacks and mountains.

They needed faith, to believe these miracles were not just caused by some Spiritual being, but the Christian God.

InterestedAtheist said:

I agree. If the only answers to prayers are ones that might happen by chance, then it seems reasonable to assume that they are, in fact, happening just by chance.

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You need at this time to be able to believe: “they just happened by chance”, so God is doing His job perfectly.

InterestedAtheist said:

Exactly. If you and other Christians are correct in what you say, God could answer prayers with miracles. He has done so before, often. There's no reason why He wouldn't again. But Christians never ask Him to.
Christians say they believe this. But I think they don't. Because if they did, we would see prayers to God asking for miracles. Not, to forestall your reply, out of selfishness or greed or a desire to test God. To God, there should be no difference between a Christian asking for a child's sickness to be cured (something you see often) and asking for a dead child to be returned to life (something you almost never see).
But you know, and we know, that if you do pray for something like that - something that God certainly could do, if He exists - you would get no answer.
We've seen a lot of rationalisations in this thread, but none of them make sense, because they don't fit the facts as presented by Christians.
The only explanation is that there is no God to answer the prayers.
Christians probably don't know this, although I wouldn't be surprised to learn that some of them sense it subconsciously. But what they do know is, God never answers impossible prayers. That's why they never pray them.

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You say: “…there should be no difference between a Christian asking for a child's sickness to be cured (something you see often) and asking for a dead child to be returned to life (something you almost never see).”

If you address my questions above you can reason the huge difference. It has nothing to do with God’s power and everything to do with your benefit.

bling said:

Where do you get the idea: Christians control God by them praying?

The “qualifier” is God will never do, that which is not best for the individual and the Kingdom.

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Curing cancer, time and time again, (which may or may not prove God's hand in a cure), is best for the Kingdom, but NEVER addressing missing limbs, cerebral palsy, and/or Downs is best for the Kingdom? HOW?

And more importantly still, why do [you] think this is what God thinks?

bling said:

You have accused me of not reading your posts,

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No. I think you are reading them, I just do not think you are addressing what I am actually saying.

bling said:

yet you are not addressing my questions which cannot all be answered with a “no”.

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Your entire line of questioning is irrelevant. Let me prove this. My responses are in red:

Let’s try another approach to the question:

Suppose God communicated to all devout Christians who spread the word: that the Christian God of the Bible was going to cure all: Down Syndrome, cerebral palsy and instantly grow back any missing limbs of people at 2PM on Friday. And it all happened just as He promised:

1. Would this result in there being over 6 billion Christians on earth, assuming 6 billion people acknowledge the existence of the Christian God? (realizing some people are too young and other just want to remain stupid). No. Not necessarily. As I stated long again, satan and a third of the angels rebelled. But this does not remove the fact that God would still answer the call to prayers of the ones whom ask, whom are believers, in earnest. But where condition and illnesses exist, for which we humans do not have an answer, neither does God. This question misses the point... God is NOT answering the call of prayer from the earnest either. You know, the ones which are not praying to prove to non-believers. If a request is made to resolve an issue for which we humans cannot already resolve ourselves, neither does He apparently. It's a simple observation....

2. “Christian” is a descriptive term and not a title, so would God consider this 6 Billion+ people Christian, just because they acknowledged His existence? No. Likely not. But this is not relevant. MY observation is that the ones He DOES consider a true-blue Christian, are not getting their prayers answered any better than the ones whom do not pray at all.

3. If these 6 billion+ people started: reading their bible, going to church every week, and were baptized, would that make them all Christians in God’s eyes? No. Likely not. But for the ones God does consider true-blue, God is not answering the call to their prayers either. Otherwise, you would once in a while see a prayer answered, for which humans cannot resolve themselves.

Are you starting to see why I did not address all 7 yet???? NO? Okay Moving forward...

4. We know; God judges the hearts of people (their attitude and motive) and not their “knowledge” or even their actions, to determine followers and their hearts determine their being saved Christians. Knowing the Christian God of the Bible is real, also means judgement is real, hell is real, and we are to Love God and others with an unbelievable beyond human ability Love. How can these people, who just acknowledged God’s existence, “trust” their motives to be pure? True-blue Christians, whom think the Christian God is real, make excuses, just like you are doing now. They genuinely think God answers prayer, and when a prayer is not answered, they feel they have a great excuse as to why. But the question still remains the same... If god answers the call to all earnest prayers, from devout believers, seems quite odd He always avoids an answer, if the humans cannot somehow resolve the matter themselves in some form or another. Coincidence?

5. Knowledge of God, hell and judgement is frighting in many ways, so would most of these 6 billion+ people do stuff out of fear of Judgement, hell and realizing God knows their hearts? Many do. This is why I mentioned the term prior, 'I'm a God fearing Christian.' And others rationalize away the concept of a 'torturous hell'. Others still say there is no hell. We get all sorts of rationalizations from the true-blue believers.

6. Is worship out of fear, a righteous motivation? And if it is not, how do you go from just knowledge of God’s existence to a loving “trust” (have faith) in God’s Love, without starting with trust and acceptance of God’s Love? Good question, one for which I already addressed. Why don't you ask the authors of the Bible whom write such Verses?

"15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."

7. Knowing your own life history and if you saw this miracle, why would you not fear this God? If the God of the Bible does exist, I would likely fear Him, due to the threats issued. But He seems to require belief.

bling said:

I am not going to pray for God to do something that is not in your best interest and you’re not addressing my questions just proves the request you are making is not in your best interest. Answer the questions and allow me to see how it would be in your best interest.

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You are making an excuse, because you know what the OP says is true. (Paraphrased) - Christians do not pray for things for which they know humans cannot somehow accomplish on their own.