Why do Christians never pray for impossible things?

cvanwey

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You need to be specific, I am not reading everyone's comments.

I am very specific, and brief. Let me recap:

(you) Pray helps the person who is correctly praying. If the person does not pray correctly for some “good” to happen, it might not happen since that opportunity was there to help the person who should have been praying. In the future that same person may pray of the same situation and it does happen.

(Me) Regardless of how one prays, it looks as though God perpetually ignores or declines the request to restore/regenerate any/all individuals with missing limbs, remove cerebral palsy, and/or remove Downs syndrome.

I find it hard to swallow the notion that no one is 'correctly' praying for these three requests?
 
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bling

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I am very specific, and brief. Let me recap:

(you) Pray helps the person who is correctly praying. If the person does not pray correctly for some “good” to happen, it might not happen since that opportunity was there to help the person who should have been praying. In the future that same person may pray of the same situation and it does happen.

(Me) Regardless of how one prays, it looks as though God perpetually ignores or declines the request to restore/regenerate any/all individuals with missing limbs, remove cerebral palsy, and/or remove Downs syndrome.

I find it hard to swallow the notion that no one is 'correctly' praying for these three requests?
We are instructed to pray: “Not my will but Yours be done”. All Christians want what is best for the Kingdom (other Christians and those who will become Christians), which would include not be to give unquestionable “knowledge” to the unbeliever that the Christian God does exist.

We are given Biblical examples like Paul praying often for his thorn in the flesh to be removed and finally given the reason, “It is there to help you”. So, when a Christian prays for someone to be healed and is not healed it is best it was not healed. That is also what I see happening to devout Christians.

I would not expect you to see the perfect logic behind how prays are answered, but I have no problem.
 
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We are instructed to pray: “Not my will but Yours be done”. All Christians want what is best for the Kingdom (other Christians and those who will become Christians), which would include not be to give unquestionable “knowledge” to the unbeliever that the Christian God does exist.

We are given Biblical examples like Paul praying often for his thorn in the flesh to be removed and finally given the reason, “It is there to help you”. So, when a Christian prays for someone to be healed and is not healed it is best it was not healed. That is also what I see happening to devout Christians.

I would not expect you to see the perfect logic behind how prays are answered, but I have no problem.
If I may: that still doesn't explain why Christian prayers almost never ask for the impossible, and why those that do ask are never, ever answered.
It looks very much like the results from praying to God are identical to the results you'd get from talking to yourself. Off you pray for something that might happen anyway, maybe it will; and if you pray for something that could only happen with divine intervention, it never does.

it's almost like there is no God to answer...
 
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cvanwey

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So, when a Christian prays for someone to be healed and is not healed it is best it was not healed.

I want to focus here, as your response above looks to expose volumes...

Christians claim God intervenes in the healing process all the time. Seems bizarre that God would exclude specific conditions? Don't you find it quite odd that God is, however, never intervening, when it comes to humans with missing limbs, cerebral palsy, or downs syndrome? And yet, seems to aid or help when it comes to diseases, conditions, or other, for which may also be resolved without any form or sort of prayer(s) at all?
 
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Tinker Grey

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A bazaar is a market place, typically middle eastern. (Though when I was a child in the Philly area, my dad would take us to the bazaar.)

'Bizarre' is strange. Normally, I'd leave it alone, but since it seems a favorite word of yours ...
 
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cvanwey

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A bazaar is a market place, typically middle eastern. (Though when I was a child in the Philly area, my dad would take us to the bazaar.)

'Bizarre' is strange. Normally, I'd leave it alone, but since it seems a favorite word of yours ...

Doh! I'll correct :) Thnx
 
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bling

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If I may: that still doesn't explain why Christian prayers almost never ask for the impossible, and why those that do ask are never, ever answered.
It looks very much like the results from praying to God are identical to the results you'd get from talking to yourself. Off you pray for something that might happen anyway, maybe it will; and if you pray for something that could only happen with divine intervention, it never does.

it's almost like there is no God to answer...
You cannot say: “Since some prays are not answered the way I think they should be answered, the Christian God does not answer any prays and follow up with the assumption “there is no God”.

No devout Christian wants his personal will to be done over what God sees as being the most benefit to the Kingdom.

There is no benefit and there is even harm, for most societies today, to have outward obvious scientifically verifiable miracles that show the Christian God exists to the unbeliever.

Would your personal knowledge of the Christian God’s existence make you Christ like?
 
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bling

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I want to focus here, as your response above looks to expose volumes...

Christians claim God intervenes in the healing process all the time. Seems bizarre that God would exclude specific conditions? Don't you find it quite odd that God is, however, never intervening, when it comes to humans with missing limbs, cerebral palsy, or downs syndrome? And yet, seems to aid or help when it comes to diseases, conditions, or other, for which may also be resolved without any form or sort of prayer(s) at all?
I will address the same answer I have been giving:

No devout Christian wants his personal “will” to be done over what God sees as being the most benefit to the Kingdom.

There is no benefit and there is even harm, in most societies today, to have outward obvious scientifically verifiable miracles that show the Christian God exists to the unbeliever.

Would your personal knowledge of the Christian God’s existence make you Christ like?
 
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cvanwey

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I will address the same answer I have been giving:

No devout Christian wants his personal “will” to be done over what God sees as being the most benefit to the Kingdom.

If prayers are only answered, according to God's will, then the act of prayer, in asking God for something, is worthless. God is only going to do or perform what God was already going to do or perform.

There is no benefit and there is even harm, in most societies today, to have outward obvious scientifically verifiable miracles that show the Christian God exists to the unbeliever.

I disagree. If the final destination is either Heaven or hell alone, and many do not believe directly because of perceived unanswered prayer, like myself, then I see a vast benefit. Unless God instead wants me to continue doubting His existence, because all claims of answered prayer could also be addressed without a claimed intervening God.

Science currently concludes they cannot cure or restore missing limbs, cerebral palsy, or Downs syndrome. If prayer imposed a result on any of these three conditions, I would seriously rethink my current conclusion. But, as it stands, it looks as though prayer may be nothing more than talking to yourself. And when something actually goes your way, you give the credit to God anyways.


Would your personal knowledge of the Christian God’s existence make you Christ like?[/QUOTE]

If I knew a postmortem Christ existed, I would likely seek Him, and do what He asks, yes.
 
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bling

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If prayers are only answered, according to God's will, then the act of prayer, in asking God for something, is worthless. God is only going to do or perform what God was already going to do or perform.

I have been over this in previous posts. There are tons of stuff we are told to pray for and if we pray believing lots are promised to be fulfilled. Forgiveness, wisdom, patience, words to best say, guidance, direction, remembrance, strength to accomplish something, greater faith, and so on. We can also pray for lots of stuff if it be God’s will to help us understand God’s will. Not praying can actually keep stuff from happening and we thus learn we need to pray for it.



I disagree. If the final destination is either Heaven or hell alone, and many do not believe directly because of perceived unanswered prayer, like myself, then I see a vast benefit. Unless God instead wants me to continue doubting His existence, because all claims of answered prayer could also be addressed without a claimed intervening God.

Suppose God took away any doubt you had about His existence. would that cause you to be like Paul going around risking your life, telling everyone that God Loves them and wants them to Love like He Loves?

Would the knowledge of the Christian God’s existence automatically provide you with an unbelievable unconditional, totally unselfish, sacrificial Love for Him and other?

Heaven is not something we achieve, but it is a free gift to those who really want that gift. Heaven is like one huge Love feast, but it is only Godly type Love (unselfish, unconditional, sacrificial). Those that want to be loved for the way they want others to perceive them to be, would be very unhappy in heaven, since that is a carnal type love, which is not in heaven.

Humility to humbly accept pure charity (gifts) from God is what’s needed and faith in a benevolent Creator is a humbling activity (would it be humbling for you to believe in God after all you have said?).

Knowledge, even knowledge of God’s existence, tends to puff up our egos and cause us to pursue and self-generate more knowledge. This is the opposite of giving up on self and humbly accepting in faith God’s help.

If I knew a postmortem Christ existed, I would likely seek Him, and do what He asks, yes.
The Jews of old who saw huge miracles, said they would seek God and do what He asked, so why would you do better then they did?
 
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cvanwey

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I have been over this in previous posts. There are tons of stuff we are told to pray for and if we pray believing lots are promised to be fulfilled. Forgiveness, wisdom, patience, words to best say, guidance, direction, remembrance, strength to accomplish something, greater faith, and so on. We can also pray for lots of stuff if it be God’s will to help us understand God’s will. Not praying can actually keep stuff from happening and we thus learn we need to pray for it.

This, in no way, addresses my response. Let me try a different approach... I would assume that God sometimes answers the call to heal as well, right???? (i.e.) missing limbs, cerebral palsy, and Downs syndrome?.?.?.?. Heck, look at all the cancer survivors alone, just for starters... Many claim God aided in their cures, even including earlier in this thread.

As God is apparently omniscient, God apparently also already has a preset plan for your every moment. Right? Nothing which happens to you, does God not already know about ahead of time. If you pray for anything, for which God actually fulfills, which also was not already predetermined to happen in God's direct plan for you, then you are essentially asking God to change His will. So...

If God never changes His predetermined will, to instead cater to an earnest alternative prayer request, then any/all petitionary and intercessory prayers to heal are worthless. ---> They only happen if God is already going to will such predetermined outcomes.


Suppose God took away any doubt you had about His existence. would that cause you to be like Paul going around risking your life, telling everyone that God Loves them and wants them to Love like He Loves?


Seems pretty clear that all fall short of perfection. The [only] way to salvation is belief, repent of sin, maybe baptism, maybe works, maybe other stuff? God seems to deem all humans sinners. However, it also seems abundantly clear, in places mentioned in the Bible, that without BELIEF you are doomed to eternal punishment --- away from God. So the real question here becomes, why is God playing "Hide and Seek'', and continuing to be the perpetual winner with me?

Would the knowledge of the Christian God’s existence automatically provide you with an unbelievable unconditional, totally unselfish, sacrificial Love for Him and other?


No, nor does He Himself expect that... He Himself states we are all unworthy of salvation. This is apparently why He had to clone Himself, and sacrifice Himself to Himself. And now, as long as we believe, accept, and repent, we too can be saved. Are you without 'sin', even as a devout believer? I think not ;)

However, doesn't God understand that we cannot control what we believe? Maybe if God presented Himself to me in a way, for which I could no longer doubt His mere existence? But instead, He chooses to remain hidden. Peculiar?


Heaven is like one huge Love feast, but it is only Godly type Love (unselfish, unconditional, sacrificial). Those that want to be loved for the way they want others to perceive them to be, would be very unhappy in heaven, since that is a carnal type love, which is not in heaven.

Now you are just pulling wishful thoughts out of your 'hoohaa'. :)


God created a black and white false dichotomy - a). eternal bliss <or> b). eternal torture. Seems odd that if belief is the pinnacle point between two such planes of existence, that God chooses for many not to receive sufficient evidence for belief?

Humility to humbly accept pure charity (gifts) from God is what’s needed and faith in a benevolent Creator is a humbling activity (would it be humbling for you to believe in God after all you have said?).
Knowledge, even knowledge of God’s existence, tends to puff up our egos and cause us to pursue and self-generate more knowledge. This is the opposite of giving up on self and humbly accepting in faith God’s help.

I disagree. I myself would have to reconcile that there IS a cosmic all knowing agent, which is evaluating, judging, and critiquing my every move. This would be quite humbling...


The Jews of old who saw huge miracles, said they would seek God and do what He asked, so why would you do better then they did?

Answered above... Nothing I do or did would matter. All that would matter is that I believe He exists, and worship Him. You cannot worship something for which you do not think even exists, can you?.?.?.?.?..?.?.?....................??????

*************************

I ask again.... Seems odd that God seems to intervene or answer the call to healing in some prayers.... But when it comes to conditions for which 'science' does not have any answer, neither does God (i.e.) missing limbs, cerebral palsy, and Downs syndrome.
 
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bling

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This, in no way, addresses my response. Let me try a different approach... I would assume that God sometimes answers the call to heal as well, right???? (i.e.) missing limbs, cerebral palsy, and Downs syndrome?.?.?.?. Heck, look at all the cancer survivors alone, just for starters... Many claim God aided in their cures, even including earlier in this thread.


As God is apparently omniscient, God apparently also already has a preset plan for your every moment. Right? Nothing which happens to you, does God not already know about ahead of time. If you pray for anything, for which God actually fulfills, which also was not already predetermined to happen in God's direct plan for you, then you are essentially asking God to change His will. So...

If God never changes His predetermined will, to instead cater to an earnest alternative prayer request, then any/all petitionary and intercessory prayers to heal are worthless. ---> They only happen if God is already going to will such predetermined outcomes.
I did not want to get into the huge topic of omniscient, predestined, foreknowledge, relativity of time and man’s free will, but will:

Lots of things are predestined by God, since that is what He will to do and sometimes when He will do it.


If God’s omnipresence includes not only man’s present time, but also man’s past and man’s future time, then God is outside of time.

God expressing himself in anthropomorphically to humans is to show why God would use our understanding of time in communicating with us. We know the results of God’s miracles but not how the miracle was done. God would not have to talk about the relativity of time or his existence outside of our time and would keep it simple and with excellent communication, talk about time from a human perspective. Time in heaven might also have their own time separate from man’s time.

God exists throughout human time at the same time, so there really is no past or future for God, so when we talk about the future, it is only future for us and not God.

It is not that God knows what you will chose in the future (suggesting the future, is also God’s future), but God knows the free will choices you did make in the future (it is history for God).

The reason God knows a free will choice you will make tomorrow is because you already made that choice for the God which exists at the end of time, so with God being outside of time the God at the end of time is communicating (within Himself) to the God of today the choices you made tomorrow.

Yes, tomorrow’s choice has not been made as far as you are concerned, but has been made as far as God is concerned.

Time is totally “relative” for God and for the last 100 years now, time has been shown to be relative and nothing has even gone against the Theory of Relativity.

If you know today historically a free will choice, I made yesterday, that choice cannot be changed, since history cannot be changed even by God (it happened). The fact you historically know a free will choice does not mean it was not a free will choice.

If God is outside of human time then God at the end of time knows perfectly historically (history cannot be changed) every autonomous free will choice man made at any and all times. God at the end of time would be able to send that information to Himself at the beginning of time before there was a known universe.

If God at the end of time knows what Adam and Eve did in the Garden, He can provide that to Himself before Adam and Eve were created, so God knows exactly what Adam and Eve are “going to do”, since they have “already done” it (God is in both places at the same “human” time).

It is difficult to think about what it is like to be outside of time and existing throughout time.

My theory would have this:

1. God perfectly knows all human future from some beginning point or before time began.

2. God knows all possible scenarios for the future that would result from His actions and man’s autonomous free will choices.

3. God has predestined in detail most of what man will experience, but this predestined set up scenario by God is to assure every mature adult has a truly independent autonomous free will choice to accept or reject His pure charity as charity, which is the individual’s choice.

4. God predestining the scenarios of man to make this free will choice would be limited to the point an individual could still chose to accept and not harden his/her heart to the point there is nothing more God could do to help that individual.

5. God knows perfectly from the beginning of time what choice every mature adult made throughout man’s history from God’s presence throughout time, but God did not make the choice for the person.

6. God predestined “before” anything was decided to be made that those humans who accepted His charity He would save.

Now the application with pray: If I pray for something today to happen tomorrow and God answers that pray as I asked the God at the end of time will know and can provide that information back to the God at the beginning of time, but if I do not pray for something and God does not provide it, then the God at the end of time would send that information back to Himself at the beginning of time, so God from the beginning of time, knows perfectly what will happen in the human tomorrow.



Seems pretty clear that all fall short of perfection. The [only] way to salvation is belief, repent of sin, maybe baptism, maybe works, maybe other stuff? God seems to deem all humans sinners. However, it also seems abundantly clear, in places mentioned in the Bible, that without BELIEF you are doomed to eternal punishment --- away from God. So the real question here becomes, why is God playing "Hide and Seek'', and continuing to be the perpetual winner with me?

God is only visibly hidden, for He is literally at your elbow. A tree is evidence for the existence of God if you allow that evidence.

It is truly unfortunate, but humans, who are made as good as they can be made, have to sin in order to help them fulfill their earthly objective. Sin is really not the problem, but unforgiven sins are a huge problem.

Humans have the ability to trust (have faith in people and stuff) it just has to be directed at a benevolent creator. Faith is needed for humility and humility is needed to accept pure charity. What God is offering to you is huge beyond imagination, but it has to be accepted as it is given as pure charity.




No, nor does He Himself expect that... He Himself states we are all unworthy of salvation. This is apparently why He had to clone Himself, and sacrifice Himself to Himself. And now, as long as we believe, accept, and repent, we too can be saved. Are you without 'sin', even as a devout believer? I think not ;)

However, doesn't God understand that we cannot control what we believe? Maybe if God presented Himself to me in a way, for which I could no longer doubt His mere existence? But instead, He chooses to remain hidden. Peculiar?

You are right about some things here, this “Love” is obtain by accepting it as a pure undeserved gift and there is really only one way which we at taught by Jesus: “…he that is forgiven much Loves much…”, so if you knowingly humbly accept God’s forgiveness of your unbelievable huge debt of sin, you will automatically receive an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love).


God created a black and white false dichotomy - a). eternal bliss <or> b). eternal torture. Seems odd that if belief is the pinnacle point between two such planes of existence, that God chooses for many not to receive sufficient evidence for belief?

If you have evidence, then you have knowledge of God’s existence which means there is no need for faith (believing) in God’s existence.
I disagree. I myself would have to reconcile that there IS a cosmic all knowing agent, which is evaluating, judging, and critiquing my every move. This would be quite humbling...
What you describe: evaluating, judging, and critiquing my every move, is someone that would be impossible for human to love. You might be looking for the some no existent “god”.

God is not looking for you to intellectually “reconcile” His existence. God is not trying to get something from you (God does not need anything you could supply), but God is trying to get you to humbly accept His help as pure charity, because it is charity and thus can only be accepted as charity.

God will lift you up and not put you down, since you need to recognize you are already down.

If there is no intelligence and only time, space, energy and matter out there then you are extremely lucky, since you are the first to be made without intelligence, since if intelligence had come earlier and evolved into super intelligence, that would be the most like source for your existence. Are you that lucky?



Answered above... Nothing I do or did would matter. All that would matter is that I believe He exists, and worship Him. You cannot worship something for which you do not think even exists, can you?.?.?.?.?..?.?.?....................??????

*************************

I ask again.... Seems odd that God seems to intervene or answer the call to healing in some prayers.... But when it comes to conditions for which 'science' does not have any answer, neither does God (i.e.) missing limbs, cerebral palsy, and Downs syndrome.
Explained above.
 
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cvanwey

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Pardon me, but I too feel we are going off the rails a bit.... I'm going to wind it back in, and stay on topic.... I will address the stuff about 'prayer.'

If you have evidence, then you have knowledge of God’s existence which means there is no need for faith (believing) in God’s existence.

Seems as though this is perfectly fine, as God 'reveals' Himself, undeniably, to millions apparently.

You now have a conundrum to address, based upon your direct response above.. Either:

a). All are mistaken, and God is not revealing to these proclaimed millions. Or...
b). You are flat out wrong, when you state "there is no need for faith (believing) in God’s existence"


Which giant pill do you wish to now swallow, a). or b).???

Furthermore, I have prayed countless times for revelation, to no perceived avail...?


What you describe: evaluating, judging, and critiquing my every move, is someone that would be impossible for human to love. You might be looking for the some no existent “god”.

God is not looking for you to intellectually “reconcile” His existence. God is not trying to get something from you (God does not need anything you could supply), but God is trying to get you to humbly accept His help as pure charity, because it is charity and thus can only be accepted as charity.

God will lift you up and not put you down, since you need to recognize you are already down.

If there is no intelligence and only time, space, energy and matter out there then you are extremely lucky, since you are the first to be made without intelligence, since if intelligence had come earlier and evolved into super intelligence, that would be the most like source for your existence. Are you that lucky?

My basis for God being real, is direct revelation. Just like many others, including here, whom also profess as receiving... I prayed for it, for decades, and nothing. If I do not believe He exists, then the Bible states, in many places, I am doomed for eternity. This is God's instructions apparently. --- Belief is a requirement supposedly... Hence, why does He continue to hide from me, when He apparently reveals to many, whether they ask or not?


Explained above.

No you certainly did not!

Seems odd that God intervenes or answers the call to healing, in some prayers.... But when it comes to conditions for which 'science' does not have any answer, neither does God (i.e.) missing limbs, cerebral palsy, and Downs syndrome.

Can you explain?

If God helps to heal some cancer patients, seems as though you would see some amputees, some cerebral palsy patients, and some Downs syndrome patients also receive cures, at about the same rate as the cancer patients, right? Because if not, then maybe the cancer patients are mistaken about God's intervention? Maybe the prayer, and God's intervention was not an actual factor? Maybe it was 'science' and/or the bodies own defenses alone?
 
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bling

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Pardon me, but I too feel we are going off the rails a bit.... I'm going to wind it back in, and stay on topic.... I will address the stuff about 'prayer.'



Seems as though this is perfectly fine, as God 'reveals' Himself, undeniably, to millions apparently.

You now have a conundrum to address, based upon your direct response above.. Either:

a). All are mistaken, and God is not revealing to these proclaimed millions. Or...
b). You are flat out wrong, when you state "there is no need for faith (believing) in God’s existence"


Which giant pill do you wish to now swallow, a). or b).???

Furthermore, I have prayed countless times for revelation, to no perceived avail...?

I am not explaining will enough for you or you are not reading my posts, which is it?

God revels Himself to all Christians including myself, through the indwelling Holy Spirit, but that only came after humbly trusting (faith) in a benevolent Creator to help me with undeserving gifts, especially forgiveness which produces Love.

A nonbeliever unwilling to humbly accept pure charity as charity is better off not knowing there is the Christian God, who allows the refuser to go to hell.

God is not needing you to acknowledge His existence, but would Love for you to be willing to humbly accept pure charity as charity from Him.

When Deity walked the earth (Jesus) the very educated religious leaders, who knew all the Old Testament prophecies about the Messiah, knew He was the Messiah or at least a prophet from God, but they did not accept Jesus, because He was not the Messiah they wanted. They did not like an unconditional, selfless, all Loving God, they wanted the praises of men, money, power and glory. So what type of God are you wanting and would you want to be changed to be like Him?

Expressing faith in a benevolent Creator is humiliating for the nonbeliever, but humility is needed to accept pure charity. As long as you’re self-reliant you are not going to humbly accept God’s charity. Your having personal “knowledge” of God just continues your reliance on self, but once you break from self, give up on self and turn to rely on God, He will help you, shower you with unbelievable gifts.



My basis for God being real, is direct revelation. Just like many others, including here, whom also profess as receiving... I prayed for it, for decades, and nothing. If I do not believe He exists, then the Bible states, in many places, I am doomed for eternity. This is God's instructions apparently. --- Belief is a requirement supposedly... Hence, why does He continue to hide from me, when He apparently reveals to many, whether they ask or not?
God can revel Himself to some prior to them becoming Christians, individually. But what is your humble motive for knowing? Do you want to become like God/Jesus?

Nicodemus (John 3) came to Jesus wanting to gain knowledge, but Jesus really puts him down, because Nicodemus already had sure knowledge of John the Baptist being a prophet of God, yet he did not accept John’s baptism because He did not want to be thrown out of the Sanhedrin. I say that because, you have knowledge concerning Christ and if you are not taking the next step with the knowledge you have, God/Christ would be wasting their time providing you with greater knowledge, like Jesus did not waste His time with Nicodemus and provide him with more knowledge, since he was not acting on the knowledge he already had.

What need do you have to trust in the existence of God?



Seems odd that God intervenes or answers the call to healing, in some prayers.... But when it comes to conditions for which 'science' does not have any answer, neither does God (i.e.) missing limbs, cerebral palsy, and Downs syndrome.

Can you explain?

If God helps to heal some cancer patients, seems as though you would see some amputees, some cerebral palsy patients, and some Downs syndrome patients also receive cures, at about the same rate as the cancer patients, right? Because if not, then maybe the cancer patients are mistaken about God's intervention? Maybe the prayer, and God's intervention was not an actual factor? Maybe it was 'science' and/or the bodies own defenses alone?
I explained this before: The hurting person, like everyone else, needs to humbly accept God’s charity, with all other needs being virtually insignificant. That hurting person (God given opportunity) is there to help me, them and others around them.

To have anything happen that could result in scientific “proof” of the Christian God, would take away the opportunity for nonbelievers to believe in the existence of God, since they would have knowledge of God’s existence. Knowledge does not result in them moving away from self-reliance, since they themselves obtained this knowledge through reasoning from the evidence given that there must be this Christian God, how smart they are. Uneducated people in some distant tribe would not understand science will enough to know from evidence the Christian God must exist and might just say a god healed the person. The educated would be on a higher plain then these back-country tribes, but if faith is what’s needed then these back-country tribes are on the same level as you (is this fair?).
 
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Amittai

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Christians claim God intervenes in the healing process all the time. Seems bizarre that God would exclude specific conditions? ...

Some do. I agree with your point. "Bling" comes across as a Job's comforter.
 
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Amittai

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... as a bit of a historian, I don't know that most Jewish leaders were hypocrites because I read so in the Bible. What I know is that the Bible says they were. A historian should consider his sources ... 1

I have read C.S. Lewis, and while I am happy to accept that he was sincere, and I do believe he was a fine speaker and writer, I have not seen anything in his work that was not essentially present in other apologetics, or did not contain the same logical fallacies 2

... many Christians don't seem to understand this. 3

Now, of course, it's ridiculous for me to say "I know that you are wrong," because I don't know any such thing. 4
But consider this. There are other people who know that God exists, and their experiences directly contradict with yours. And then, there's the story of Dan Barker, and many others like him, some of them on this forum, who believed just as much as you did - until they didn't.

... The thing is, the explanation doesn't strike me as plausible. There must be many different circumstances in which an "impossible" miracle would not rob people of their chance to have faith, or cause terrible consequences in the world ... they know, in their hearts, that God never answers impossible prayers.
And that goes against everything Christians believe about God. 5 Which is why I believe the atheist's explanation makes sense. 6 God never answers impossible prayers because He isn't there ... 7

1 - agreed. This takes us into betwixt-and-between territory (rather than a complete whitewash)

2 - personally I've never been convinced by C S Lewis even while already a believer

3 - you appear to be acknowledging unobtrusively, some diversity among christians

4 - correct

5 - some of what some christians believe about God. See further at foot.

6 - I also believe his explanation (that I have seen so far) makes sense

7 - not only does the entity with that job description made in that image not do so, but the kind of people we are discussing have a strange fixation with miracles - see below

Points 5, 7: the nuances I'm giving don't actually much weaken what might be your point (I think)
 
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cvanwey

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I am not explaining will enough for you or you are not reading my posts, which is it?

God revels Himself to all Christians including myself, through the indwelling Holy Spirit, 1) but that only came after humbly trusting (faith) in a benevolent Creator to help me with undeserving gifts, especially forgiveness which produces Love.

A nonbeliever unwilling to humbly accept pure charity as charity is better off not knowing there is the Christian God, who allows the refuser to go to hell.

2) God is not needing you to acknowledge His existence, but would Love for you to be willing to humbly accept pure charity as charity from Him.

When Deity walked the earth (Jesus) the very educated religious leaders, who knew all the Old Testament prophecies about the Messiah, knew He was the Messiah or at least a prophet from God, but they did not accept Jesus, because He was not the Messiah they wanted. They did not like an unconditional, selfless, all Loving God, they wanted the praises of men, money, power and glory. 3) So what type of God are you wanting and would you want to be changed to be like Him?

4) Expressing faith in a benevolent Creator is humiliating for the nonbeliever, but humility is needed to accept pure charity. As long as you’re self-reliant you are not going to humbly accept God’s charity. Your having personal “knowledge” of God just continues your reliance on self, but once you break from self, give up on self and turn to rely on God, He will help you, shower you with unbelievable gifts.

Pay careful attention to the parts of your response in bold.

1) I was a devout seeking Christian for 3 decades. I prayed and prayed and prayed, only never to feel I received any contact. Which looks to mean one of the following...


a) God either does not exist, and all others are mistaken.
b) God does exist, but has chosen to pass over me, even though the Bible seems to suggest otherwise, in many Verses about prayer.
c) God did contact me, but I'm too blinded by sin, as expressed in the Bible.

Thus far, a) seems most logical, since we have countless of people, whom claim to speak to differing god(s), opposed to yours. They cannot ALL be right, but you all can certainly all be mistaken.


2) As I stated prior, my belief in His existence, is the beginning, or catalyst. I cannot possibly worship a deity for which I do not even believe exists, can I? That would be illogical. God states that all unbelievers are to spend eternity away from God, right?


3) I find this question irrelevant. It does not matter what type of God I would want. All that matters, is what God, if any, is actually real. I sincerely doubt such a god(s) would cater to my every view, choices, and/or wishes. But since I sought after this particular claimed flavor, in earnest, for decades, only to receive the big goose egg, it is no wonder I gave up the earnest search?


4) If I received revelation that such a creator existed, then I would have NO choice but to believe He really existed. I would either then


a) Choose to follow, as He commanded me, if He should happen to also exchange dialogue with me, or...
b) I would have to guess on my own what I think He wants, if He chose not to exchange any usable dialogue with me. Or...
c) I could simply rebel, like satan. But that would seem rather foolish --- knowing what the Bible says about all whom rebel - they burn forever...


God can revel Himself to some prior to them becoming Christians, individually. But what is your humble motive for knowing? Do you want to become like God/Jesus?

Nicodemus (John 3) came to Jesus wanting to gain knowledge, but Jesus really puts him down, because Nicodemus already had sure knowledge of John the Baptist being a prophet of God, yet he did not accept John’s baptism because He did not want to be thrown out of the Sanhedrin. I say that because, you have knowledge concerning Christ and if you are not taking the next step with the knowledge you have, God/Christ would be wasting their time providing you with greater knowledge, like Jesus did not waste His time with Nicodemus and provide him with more knowledge, since he was not acting on the knowledge he already had.

What need do you have to trust in the existence of God?

Is this really your answer? Please....

God is stated to have both the ability to reveal to all, and also will reveal to all. And further still, all will drop to their knees (i.e.).


"every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God."

In the mean time, He chooses to play hide and go seek with many apparently.

And to answer your question in bold...


I sought after Him for decades in earnest. I gave up after 3 decades of honest inquiry. I would like to know if my search was in vain, or if God simply has chosen to pass over me for some reason? The doubt I harbor now, seems rational, after having 3 decades of a seemingly one-way dialogue. God seems to interact with some all the time, while completely ignoring others.

However, your rationale for why God is not contacting me conflicts with the Bible. The Bible states:

"since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."


The above essentially indicates that I'm either in denial, or blocked by sin.

But I also state I logically have concluded option a) from above.... (i.e.) -- "a) seems most logical, since we have countless of people, whom claim to speak to differing god(s), opposed to yours. They cannot ALL be right, but you all can certainly all be mistaken."


I explained this before: The hurting person, like everyone else, needs to humbly accept God’s charity, with all other needs being virtually insignificant. That hurting person (God given opportunity) is there to help me, them and others around them.

To have anything happen that could result in scientific “proof” of the Christian God, would take away the opportunity for nonbelievers to believe in the existence of God, since they would have knowledge of God’s existence. Knowledge does not result in them moving away from self-reliance, since they themselves obtained this knowledge through reasoning from the evidence given that there must be this Christian God, how smart they are. Uneducated people in some distant tribe would not understand science will enough to know from evidence the Christian God must exist and might just say a god healed the person. The educated would be on a higher plain then these back-country tribes, but if faith is what’s needed then these back-country tribes are on the same level as you (is this fair?).

Here we are again, at the crux of the topic, and I see you continuing to dance all around the black and white observation :(

- Does God ever aid in healing, via prayer requests? [yes] or [no]?

Assuming the answer is [yes], I see a direct problem here. God seems to only aid in a cure, where 'science' or the bodies own defenses also come to aid, like cancer for instance. We have many whom claim God aided in their cure. If these cancer patients are actually correct, looks as though any/all people with missing limbs, people with cerebral palsy, and ones with Down's syndrome, are perpetually passed over by God.

Can you explain?????
 
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Amittai

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1) I was a devout seeking Christian for 3 decades. I prayed and prayed and prayed, only never to feel I received any contact. Which looks to mean one of the following...


a) God either does not exist, and all others are mistaken.
b) God does exist, but has chosen to pass over me, even though the Bible seems to suggest otherwise, in many Verses about prayer.
c) God did contact me, but I'm too blinded by sin, as expressed in the Bible. D


Thus far, a) seems most logical, since we have countless of people, whom claim to speak to differing god(s), opposed to yours. They cannot ALL be right, but you all can certainly all be mistaken.


2) ... God states that all unbelievers are to spend eternity away from God, right? E ...


4) If I received revelation that such a creator existed, then I would have NO choice but to believe He really existed. I would either then


a) Choose to follow, as He commanded me, if He should happen to also exchange dialogue with me, or...
b) I would have to guess on my own what I think He wants, if He chose not to exchange any usable dialogue with me. Or...
c) I could simply rebel, like satan. But that would seem rather foolish --- knowing what the Bible says about all whom rebel - they burn forever... E


"since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse." F

The above essentially indicates that I'm either in denial, or blocked by sin.

But I also state I logically have concluded option a) from above.... (i.e.) -- "a) seems most logical, since we have countless of people, whom claim to speak to differing god(s), opposed to yours. They cannot ALL be right, but you all can certainly all be mistaken."


- Does God ever aid in healing, via prayer requests? [yes] or [no]? G


Assuming the answer is [yes], I see a direct problem here. God seems to only aid in a cure, where 'science' or the bodies own defenses also come to aid, like cancer for instance. We have many whom claim God aided in their cure. If these cancer patients are actually correct, looks as though any/all people with missing limbs, people with cerebral palsy, and ones with Down's syndrome, are perpetually passed over by God. H


Can you explain?????

It's for Bling to answer. I'm just butting in (but if you'd rather I don't, please say directly) My expression of similar experience to yours is only overtly slightly different.

D - without precluding "a-c" I hypothesise a "d" in there - another (unidentified) possibility instead / in addition

E - I think those it will be most terrible for are those with power in churches who threw weight around at others' expense

F - my hunch is Paul wasn't meaning this in a facile way. he was plotting common ground between Christians of both gentile and Jewish background. Ex-pagans would have known a "generically theistic" sort of atmosphere. But non-theistic young children know fair and unfair from logic (if their parents haven't destroyed it) and likewise they are methodical realists / projectivists because they haven't had it drummed out of them. The kind of atheists that would worry Paul - and the kind of theists - would be the ones who would use cosmology as an excuse to ride roughshod over others.

G - probably

H - my hunch is the entire area of issues has been skewed by an obsession or fixation of show-offs with what they call "miracles".

It's good to be hard headed when we are given a chance by the "clever clogs" quietening down.
 
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cvanwey

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H - my hunch is the entire area of issues has been skewed by an obsession or fixation of show-offs with what they call "miracles".

It's good to be hard headed when we are given a chance by the "clever clogs" quietening down.

This is really the only part I truly care about, as it relates to the thread directly....

And I have to say, you too look to have dodged the direct question' while ironically butting in at the same time?.? :)

Many Christians claim God helped cure them of their unwanted inflictions, diseases, conditions, other.

Are they ALL mistaken?

Does God EVER intervene, via petitionary or intercessory prayer requests to heal?

If He does, then why does He only cure such processes, for which may also logically be cured without God's direct help: (i.e.) which perpetually excludes missing limbs, cerebral palsy, and Downs?
 
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