Why do Christians never pray for impossible things?

[cvanwey]

First off: all these verses are in the context of Jesus talking to His disciples (and really the apostles).

I have seen “mountains moved”, but not literal hunks of dirt.

Mark 16: 20 Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it.

Luke 21: 10 Then he said to them: “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11 There will be great earthquakes, famines and pestilences in various places, and fearful events and great signs from heaven. 12 “But before all this, they will seize you and persecute you. They will hand you over to synagogues and put you in prison, and you will be brought before kings and governors, and all on account of my name. 13 And so you will bear testimony to me. 14 But make up your mind not to worry beforehand how you will defend yourselves. 15 For I will give you words and wisdom that none of your adversaries will be able to resist or contradict.

John 2:11 What Jesus did here in Cana of Galilee was the first of the signs through which he revealed his glory; and his disciples believed in him. …many people saw the signs he was performing and believed in his name.

Jesus said discouragingly: John 4: 48 “Unless you people see signs and wonders,” Jesus told him, “you will never believe.”

Ro. 8: 28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

Nothing you have presented above demonstrates your blank assertion "the benefit the healing will have for all people and the Kingdom".

God looks to, 100% of the time, skip any/all prayer requests to heal, if the human cannot also somehow achieve such a request on their own. This continues to be a very large coincidence. Nothing you have provided above, explains why. God merely tells His readers and followers that He answers prayers, and gives no such caveat(s) for your give direct exclusions.

If God continues to heal, then you would also see Him intervening in requests for which humans deem incurable 100% of the time; like missing limbs, cerebral palsy, and Downs.

.

Everything that happens or does not happen is for the Christian’s good.

According to your rationale, cancer is sometimes 'bad'. But missing limbs, cerebral palsy, and Downs is always 'good'. God intervenes in much healing, including cancer. But He 100% excuses or excludes any/all requests to intervene in amputees, cerebral palsy, and Downs.

Christians, who actively have the indwelling Holy Spirit, know why it will not happen and know why it would not be good to ask for it to happen, since it hurts the nonbeliever at this time.

Nonsense. You continue to fail in presenting where the Bible states this...

I think it is more logical to conclude that any sensible person knows NOT to pray for things they KNOW would never happen. Like praying for a limb to return, or to rid a family member of Downs or cerebral Palsy. They know these things are 'impossible', and hence, know better

It instead makes sense for many, maybe even you, to continue to rationalize the misses, while accepting the hits. When someone recovers, give the glory to God. When they don't recover, rationalize by stating it is God's will, or it is not their time.

It is not irrational to know God does that which is absolutely the best for all involved.

You completely avoided the request. Which conclusion requires more assumption???? a or b?

a. God does not exist, and The people which assert He does, are merely 'connecting the dots' or 'accepting the hits and ignoring the misses'.

b. God does exist. He apparently answers prayer requests to heal. He also tells His readers He will address your prayers when asked. However, He chooses to perpetually exclude requests which humans cannot address without prayer. Further, He additionally apparently relies upon humans to rationalize, on their own, why this is the case.

Knowledge and believe are not the same thing

You have again completely avoided the observation.

You will never love something for which you do not even believe exists.

I realize the difference before and after I allowed the Spirit to be unquenched in me. Even now when I quench the Spirit and do go out on my own, I get in trouble. If I allow the Spirit freedom within me good stuff happens for me and others.

Again, 'good stuff' can happen while believing in any religion. This brings no merit to it's truth claims.

These are all excellent opportunities for Christians to show, experience, give, receive, and grow Godly type Love (which is the Christian objective). Showing this Love is showing God Himself for God is Love.

You avoided the question:

If God "loves" everyone, what be the point in allowing the suffering, torture, and death of young children, prior to the age of theodicy?

I agree but knowledge of the Christian God is not believing in the Christian God, you need to believe.

If you don't believe, then you will never take it seriously. God states you must believe. Non-believers cannot love something for which they do not believe exists

You said: judgement and hell are scary and frightening. Knowledge of the Christian God of the Bible includes knowledge of the Judgement, hell and heaven. Believe in the Christian God of the Bible protects you from going to hell, so you first need to believe. Believe is a choice, since you can go on not believing, with or without knowledge, but going on not believing with knowledge is extremely frightening, like knowing there is a gun to your head.

I will say I comment you getting back with me quickly and it reminds me of my Chinese students, but they have a real hunger for the truth, so is that your reason?

As I've already told you.... I am not a believer. According to the Bible, I'm already 100% doomed. I'm asking you for help. And you will not do it. It would take you like 10 seconds..... And yet, you refuse. YOU have nothing to loose. Please pray for God to contact me. If I then believe, as I stated prior, me and God can sort out the details. It is not for you to 'worry'

***************

My reason here is that I'm fascinated by the apparent cognitive dissonance displayed.

 

[cvanwey]

Most people have some kind of health condition, at some point in their life, and certainly more likely as we get older. Many cannot be cured. Some of them are more challenging than others. A life free of all physical ailments doesn't mean you have a happy life. Conversely, a life with a physical ailment doesn't mean you don't have a happy life. My aunt is elderly and has had cerebral palsy all of her life. She's the sweetest, most upbeat, child-like, bubbly person I know.

This response completely circumnavigates my observation.

My point here is very simple. The assumption is that God sometimes answers prayers to heal/intervene/fix/undo/etc. If He does, WHY does He 100% of the time, exclude requests to do so for amputees, cerebral palsy, or Downs; but readily does so for other conditions, like cancer?

Please also acknowledge what I said, in addition... If humans cannot resolve a matter on their own, in some way, shape, or form, then it looks as though God does not answer the call either. Strange, isn't it?

No, that's not how I see this world. The world is still full of beauty, love, hope, joy, and possibility. We just don't stake all our claims here, because the world is tainted, and temporary.

How can the world be full of 'hope' and 'possibility', if it is both 'tainted' and 'temporary'?

That's like saying, "My father sometimes gives me really awesome gifts that I don't expect. But since I never know when he might surprise me with something unexpected, why bother talking to him or having a relationship with him at all?"

I'm afraid you have provided a false analogy. According to Christians, which likely includes [you], God has a direct and specific plan for you. He already knows what you are going to do, along with how He is going to intervene, at every turn. In such a case, your prayer is likely useless. And at best, your 'seemingly' answered prayer may parallel His already set plan for you. For which you would then assume He answered your prayer.

I doubt ANY father has such omniscience or omnipotence A father wishes to have a relationship with their kids, and vise verse, most of the time, yes. But please, do not provide a false premise.

Prayer isn't just asking for things.

I haven't claimed that's ALL prayer is for... I've specified, on several occasions, that we are to assume that God sometimes does answer prayers in healing, right?

Prayer is a powerful tool

Powerful enough for an earnest Christian to ask that their amputee brother, sister with cerebral palsy, or cousin with Downs be 'cured' by God??? If not, then you might want to rephrase what you are asserting about prayer.

Sometimes, yes. Look for the lessons to be learned. Look for the opportunities to trust and rely on God more deeply than before. Suffering also is a seriously potent "reset" button for gratitude. I've had many serious health problems over the years. And I notice that I am never more grateful and aware of the tiny blessings; being able to breathe, being able to eat, being able to go to work or shop or simply take a walk outside... as when I'm ill. So when I'm healthy and I find myself slipping into feeling whiny about things, I stop and think. Like today. It's raining and dreary and nasty outside. I hate this weather. It's been raining for five days straight. I could walk around scowling and going, "I HATE this weather!" or I could stop and think how grateful I am to be able to see the rain, to hear the rain, to walk in the rain, to fuss over getting wet on my way to work and on my way home.

None of this addresses what I said. In a nutshell, you are telling yourself... Even if this life sux, under virtually anyone's standard, at least the next one will be 'perfect'. It's a comforting plausible fiction, to keep you going.

And in your response, there exists no need for a person to surmise such conclusions... You could be a POW in a concentration camp for 15 years, finally escape, and appreciate the smallest of freedoms. So? All this means is that your freedom is sometimes restricted, either against your will or other.

He had been undergoing treatment, but they had stopped it because his condition was progressing so rapidly, and there was nothing more they could do for him. They had given him only a few more months to live.

That's horrible. Glad to hear they recovered. Like I stated already, over-coming cancer is not miraculous. Over-coming a missing limb, cerebral palsy, and Downs, however, looks to be...

But your story only raises more questions, than provides any resolution; in which you might automatically conclude YHWH:

a. Medicine is called a practice for a reason - (you can fill in the blanks here)
b. Many beat cancer, even late stage. No one beats amputation, cerebral palsy, or Downs.
c. Would it had mattered if (s)he had prayed to Vishnu, Apollo, or Xenu instead?
d. (S)he still received treatment, and did not just pray exclusively.
e. If prayer is so powerful, why not just pray exclusively?
f. What explanation is to be given for the late stage cancer survivors, who never prayed, because they are atheists?
g. How about the late stage survivors whom prayed exclusively to a differing god(s)?

Curious, maybe. Not odd. Things like being an amputee or having Downs Syndrome aren't at all similar to having a terminal illness like cancer. Amputees and people with Downs can live long, happy, relatively normal lives (depending on their individual situations, of course).

Please do not side-step the observation. You can be happy, while having cancer too. But God seems not to have a problem intervening anyways, time and time again apparently. But it remains curious still that God seems to intervene, frequently, with conditions for which humans can resolve on their own. But remains perpetually absent, for conditions in which humans cannot resolve on their own.

I'm sure we can agree that many have prayed for their child's cerebral palsy to vanish, like maybe even the family of this fella below, for instance?:

http://silentangels4me0.tripod.com/JophiesDiagnosis1.html

Want to make a wager, that no matter how much he is prayed for, God will never cure this guy? Assuming we are coming to the same page now, I must ask:

Is it more likely that:

a. No such god exists, and people merely accept the hits and rationalize the misses?

OR

b. God does exist, Christians claim He heals all the time, He also tells His readers that He answers prayer. Yet, always declines any/all requested for amputees, cerebral palsy, and Downs. And now, God leaves the believers and apologists to rationalize why?

I can't speak for whoever you're referring to. I know that my friend was healed during prayer.

Again:

a. Medicine is called a practice for a reason - (you can fill in the blanks here)
b. Many beat cancer, even late stage. No one beats amputation, cerebral palsy, or Downs.
c. Would it had mattered if (s)he had prayed to Vishnu, Apollo, or Xenu instead?
d. (S)he still received treatment, and did not just pray exclusively.
e. If prayer is so powerful, why not just pray exclusively?
f. What explanation is to be given for the late stage cancer survivors, who never prayed, because they are atheists?
g. How about the late stage survivors whom prayed exclusively to a differing god(s)?

 

[InterestedAtheist]

The Christian God might be “ridiculously unlikely” to you, but not for me. The likelihood of the other things you mentioned are highly unlikely for both of us and insignificant, so why pursue evidence either way for them?

Because you asked me if I had proof that "impossible" prayers are never answered. I do not, but since both of us - as you yourself agree - disbelieve in a lot of things without having a definite disproof of them, I feel quite comfortable in saying that "impossible" prayers are never answered.

You do not, and I am not saying or suggesting anyone Love God without knowing in their heart, He exists.

Yes you are. That's exactly what you're saying. when you say it takes a leap of faith, it means you must believe that God exists before you have reason to do so.
Faith, in the religious sense, is nothing admirable. It's simply choosing to believe without good reason to. It's no more romantic or heartwarming to have faith in God without good reason than it is to have faith that you can step out of a tenth floor window and stroll to the ground.

This goes back to those questions you did not answer, yourself.

I did answer them. I said that you could just look at cvanwey's answers, because they are what I would have said.

Unquestionable knowledge of the Christian God of the Bible existing (reveals Himself to you) means you know heaven, hell, and judgement exists. Judgement and hell are like putting a gun to your head, so how do you make a free will choice with likely alternatives?

So, let me see if I can get this right.
God creates heaven and hell. If you don't believe in Him, you go to hell.
God wants to save people from hell.
God wants people to become Christian. This will, at least, greatly increase their chances of going to heaven.
But God doesn't want people to choose to believe in and follow Him out of fear. Therefore, He goes to quite extreme lengths to make sure that His existence can never be proved, because if we knew for certain that Hell existed, we would become Christians out of fear, which is not what God wants.
Perhaps God should just not have created hell in the first place.

Anyway, to answer your question, I have a free will choice because I have free will. Even if someone were to put a gun to my head and order me to be a Christian, I would still have the free will to say no if I really wanted to.

Bling, I get that this is an unfair and irrational system. I just find it strange that you are telling me that it's therefore my fault for not doing something I am unable to do: believe in a God when there is no reason to do so.

God being hidden and uncertain to the nonbelieving sinner, allows that sinner to choose between: continuing to pursue the perceived pleasures of sin or believe in a benevolent Creator’s Love to forgive them.

No, it doesn't. Do you have this power, to make yourself believe in something without good reason? Let's test it. Put a pencil on the table in front of you. Can you choose to believe that it is now floating in the air, or glowing with light, or reciting the two times table?
I do not have a choice to believe in God. Lacking any evidence that He exists, I am unable to make myself believe that He does.

Yes, God in the past did reveal Himself publicly, but again that did not save those people, they had to trust Him over other “spiritual beings”, these “other” gods seemingly revealed themselves in the Sun, moon, stars, fire, water, mountains, crops and objects. Today, we have scientific explanations for this early thought to be miracles, so we do not naturally spiritualize all these before unknowns. God did many miracles for the Jews prior to the destruction of Jerusalem, which they would expect from the true God follower. The Jews did not have an issue with believing in God, but in accepting Christianity over Judaism. They felt just being a Jew protected them from judgement and meant they were heaven bound.

If God were to reveal Himself in some indisputable way, we would then be in a position to make the choice He, and you, want us to make. We would be able to choose to love God, or not.

Nothing is by “chance” or “natural”, since God or humans either allows or causes these things.
You are assuming randomness or things just “naturally” happening and leaving God out of it. God does not make our choices for us, but everything else is controlled.

I think you know exactly what I mean. And I think all Christians do, which is why they pray for people to recover from sickness (something that may happen, if we're lucky, whether we're Christians or not) but never for people to come back from the dead (something that never happens, which is why Christians never bother praying for it - even though their own religion says that their prayers could be answered).

Again, trying to use the science of statistics to proof the Christian God must exist, will not work, since the nonbeliever must believe.

Not at all. Read what I said again:
Imagine we could collate the data of people recovering from sicknesses. Assume a population of one million atheists, one million Christians and one million believers of a different, false religion.
The atheists will not be praying. Therefore, their recovery rates will be strictly natural.
The believers of a false religion will be praying, but their prayers will be ineffective since they are praying to the wrong God. Therefore, their recovery rates will be strictly natural.
The Christians will be praying. Some of their prayers will not be answered by God but, as you your self have claimed, some of them will be. Therefore, their recovery rates will be unexpectedly higher, due to the fraction of prayers that God chooses to answer.
If your claim is true, this is the kind of thing we should be seeing. But we don't. Therefore, your claim that God answers some prayers for healing is demonstrably false.
Please explain to me what is wrong with this idea, given that you have said that God sometimes answers prayers for healing.

Healing itself does not convert people.

Sure it does. I'd become a Christian tomorrow if I saw a person pray for an amputee to be healed, and for the healing to take place.

Just as much and most likely more people can see God (Love) through true Christians serving those who are ill. That unselfish, unconditional, sacrificial Love is God Himself, being revealed through true Christians serving others. The Christian’s pray is to know how best to serve others, to have what is needed to cease the opportunities, to strengthen their own faith, to allow the Spirit to work through them and to Love others even more.

Yes, you said. But Christians also pray for God asking Him for things, as you've also admitted. and it's very strange indeed that they only ever pray for things which may happen anyway.
You see, I don't buy all this apologetic you have about God not wanting to reveal Himself. In the first place, it doesn't make sense (see above) and in the second place, people just don't think like that. You're telling me that a believing Christian mother with a sick child, for example, will pray night and day to God to heal her child but then, if the child dies, you're telling me the Christian mother will be thinking: Well, God could bring my daughter back to life, of course, but if He did, he'd be tipping His hand and the atheists of the world would therefore be deprived of their chance to come to Him through faith. so I'd better not pray for my dearest, beloved child to come back to life.
Nonsense.

You are asking me to defend someone I do not agree with, which I cannot do. We are communicating and if I was communicating with them, I would have lots of questions of them.

You told me that other Christians disagree with you, but that you're the one who has it right. This is the no True Scotsman fallacy.

Sin is not the punishment?

Ahem. I mean to say "hell." Sorry.

The nonbeliever can be told about hell to realize his/her sins are a huge deal to God, but it is not going to impact them until they believe God and everything else might exist. They might swiftly want to have a believe in God to avoid the possibility of hell, but it is all still about faith/believe/trust and not knowledge.

First of all, of course anyone would be afraid of hell if they actually believed in it. Second, what's wrong with that? Fear, as Sherlock Holmes almost said, is wisdom in the face of danger.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Some Christians absolutely do pray for things similar to what you mention.

Yes, I know - but they are very few and far between. Like the case I referenced, I think earlier in this thread. A church prayed for a dead girl to come back to life, but she didn't. Well, most Christians know better. They know that a kind of doublethink is important, and it's also important not to think about it. Ask God for things, yes, but only for the things that might happen anyway.
Because you do know, don't you, that if you ask God for something actually impossible, your prayer will never be answered. God could answer the prayer, if He were real. But He never will, not for anyone. If you're a Christian, that should be very puzzling, no matter what rationalisations you think of. But if you're an atheist, there's a simple answer that fits all the facts: God is not there to answer the impossible prayer.

However, part of being a Christian is placing ourselves in submission to God and His will. The world is a fallen, sinful place. Sin and its consequences (death, illness, struggles) will not disappear entirely until Christ returns and the earth is made new again. What you're talking about here - the absence of suffering - is coming. It's just not here yet.

But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the fact that Christians do ask God for things, just making very sure their prayers might happen anyway through pure chance. And, of course, sometimes they do.

In meantime, God uses difficult situations - both of our own making, and those that befall us through no fault of our own - to teach us lessons and to draw us closer to Him. As Oswald Chambers said, "God is more interested in your character than your comfort. God is more interested in making your life holy than He is in making your life happy.”

As I think @cvanwey said, surely there can be a lesson in cancer? Surely a person with toothache, or with a lost wallet, or not having a job, can find meaning and lessons in these unhappy situations? But that doesn't prevent them from praying to God for help with them.
So why don't they pray to God for help with impossible situations? Because they know God never answers those prayers. Strange, isn't it? I mean, He could answer them. To God, the difference between healing a sick child and bringing one back to life is nothing at all. Why not ask Him? Because we know God only answers prayers for things that might happen on their own anyway.

 

[bling]

Nothing you have presented above demonstrates your blank assertion "the benefit the healing will have for all people and the Kingdom".

Everything God does is for the benefit of Kingdom People, those who Love Him: Ro. 8: 28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

God looks to, 100% of the time, skip any/all prayer requests to heal, if the human cannot also somehow achieve such a request on their own. This continues to be a very large coincidence. Nothing you have provided above, explains why. God merely tells His readers and followers that He answers prayers, and gives no such caveat(s) for your give direct exclusions.

I have explained many times now: The reason God does not do anything that could be used as scientific proof of His existence is because, it eliminates the need for faith in God’s existence. Those in the kingdom should know the need for this faith, and would not want anything to keep nonbelievers from placing faith in the existence of God.

You assume, since God does not reveal Himself through outwardly obvious scientifically verifiable healings, He does not heal those in which healthcare workers are involved, which is not a logical conclusion, since there is a difference.

If God continues to heal, then you would also see Him intervening in requests for which humans deem incurable 100% of the time; like missing limbs, cerebral palsy, and Downs.

God does continue to heal, but will not do anything to take away from you that which would help you to believe in Him. (Knowledge is not believe).



.

According to your rationale, cancer is sometimes 'bad'. But missing limbs, cerebral palsy, and Downs is always 'good'. God intervenes in much healing, including cancer. But He 100% excuses or excludes any/all requests to intervene in amputees, cerebral palsy, and Downs.

All these tragedies no matter how severe are, unfortunately, needed opportunities for true Christians to display Godly type Love (God Himself) to others.

John 9: 3 “Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him.

Nonsense. You continue to fail in presenting where the Bible states this...

We have lots of scriptural examples:

1. The million plus Jews who left Egypt saw firsthand lots of unquestionable miracles, yet only two entered the Promised Land.

2. The Bible talks about the prophets of old doing lots of miracles and yet the people stoned, persecuted, drove them away and killed them.

3. The people during Christ’s time on earth saw His miracles and crucified Him.

We are repeatedly told to have faith/believe (which again is not knowledge).

We both agreed that knowledge/certainty of the Christian God of the Bible’s existence, today would produce knowledge of judgment and hell, which for the nonbelieving sinner is extremely frightening fearful. The Bible does tell us (1 Cor. 13: 1-4) that you have to have Love to do anything of value and fear does not produce Love.

I think it is more logical to conclude that any sensible person knows NOT to pray for things they KNOW would never happen. Like praying for a limb to return, or to rid a family member of Downs or cerebral Palsy. They know these things are 'impossible', and hence, know better

I am only talking about sincere Christians praying and not all sensible people. These heals are impossible today, since God is not going to provide scientific proof of His existence for the reasons I gave.

You completely avoided the request. Which conclusion requires more assumption???? a or b?

a. God does not exist, and The people which assert He does, are merely 'connecting the dots' or 'accepting the hits and ignoring the misses'.

b. God does exist. He apparently answers prayer requests to heal. He also tells His readers He will address your prayers when asked. However, He chooses to perpetually exclude requests which humans cannot address without prayer. Further, He additionally apparently relies upon humans to rationalize, on their own, why this is the case.

All prays of a sincere Christian include “if it be Your will”, and sincere Christians know it is not in keeping with the Kingdom (we seek the Kingdom first) to eliminate the need for the nonbeliever to have faith. What is irrational about that?

You provide two choices: “God exist” or “God does not exist” which is fine, but then you add what you consider the deciding factor for these two choices. We do not know what God would do about some healings if people did not pray for them to be healed, if it is God’s desire to heal them with our prays, since part of the desire of God to heal the person can be contingent on our prays. God answers all prays from a sincere believer.

You have again completely avoided the observation.

You will never love something for which you do not even believe exists.

I agree totally and you sure will not Love someone you have a frightening fear of, what He might do to you.

You avoided the question:

If God "loves" everyone, what be the point in allowing the suffering, torture, and death of young children, prior to the age of theodicy?

These are needed opportunities for Christians.

If you don't believe, then you will never take it seriously. God states you must believe. Non-believers cannot love something for which they do not believe exists

I agree totally and you sure will not Love someone you have a frightening fear of, what he might do to you.

As I've already told you.... I am not a believer. According to the Bible, I'm already 100% doomed. I'm asking you for help. And you will not do it. It would take you like 10 seconds..... And yet, you refuse. YOU have nothing to loose. Please pray for God to contact me. If I then believe, as I stated prior, me and God can sort out the details. It is not for you to 'worry'

***************

My reason here is that I'm fascinated by the apparent cognitive dissonance displayed.

I can take days if needed, but it would hurt you in that you would be trying to replace knowledge with believe. You, I and God keep saying: “you must believe”.

 

[cvanwey]

Everything God does is for the benefit of Kingdom People, those who Love Him: Ro. 8: 28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

I have explained many times now: The reason God does not do anything that could be used as scientific proof of His existence is because, it eliminates the need for faith in God’s existence. Those in the kingdom should know the need for this faith, and would not want anything to keep nonbelievers from placing faith in the existence of God.

You assume, since God does not reveal Himself through outwardly obvious scientifically verifiable healings, He does not heal those in which healthcare workers are involved, which is not a logical conclusion, since there is a difference.

God does continue to heal, but will not do anything to take away from you that which would help you to believe in Him. (Knowledge is not believe).

As the OP suggests, Christians know not to pray for amputees, cerebral palsy, diabetes 1, etc, because [you/they] know 'God' does not address 'impossible' requests This observation has nothing to do with your claims that He fears too much 'knowledge' by humans will spoil the process. You have only proven to illustrate further contradiction. Stay tuned...

All these tragedies no matter how severe are, unfortunately, needed opportunities for true Christians to display Godly type Love (God Himself) to others.

John 9: 3 “Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him.

By your logic, this means any family, whom has someone with missing limbs, cerebral palsy, or Downs, whom are all also Christian, do not ever possess enough 'Godly type love'. But, on the contrary, many families, whom have someone with cancer and pray, often times do have enough 'Godly type love.'

How about this....? Have the ones whom do possess enough 'Godly type love', like the ones whom experience fulfilled God requests in cures for cancer, simply also pray for the the amputees, cerebral palsy, and Downs?

We have lots of scriptural examples:

1. The million plus Jews who left Egypt saw firsthand lots of unquestionable miracles, yet only two entered the Promised Land.

Here is your first contradiction. If modern atheists saw, what they perceived as true 'miracles', most would still not believe it came from the request of a deity. Many/most would chalk up the observed event(s) as simply unexplainable, but not assign the attributed miracle(s) directly to YHWH. Hence, 'knowledge' would certainly still not be achieved.

2. The Bible talks about the prophets of old doing lots of miracles and yet the people stoned, persecuted, drove them away and killed them.

A second contradiction has now been provided; to your assertion that God does not heal the 'impossible', for fear of lack in the 'freewill/choice/belief' of all skeptics.

Back during this time, may/most were very superstitious. Many stoned, persecuted, or even murdered, because they attributed such observation(s) to witch craft, evil spirits, false prophets, and/or etc. Back during this time, if something happened, which was unexplainable, many would attribute such observation as 'evil', in need of direct retaliation.

Nowadays, we just scratch our heads. If God was intervening in amputees, cerebral palsy, and Downs, all any of us could logically conclude, is that 'science' itself does not seem to have the answer. As stated time and time again, simple observation.

3. The people during Christ’s time on earth saw His miracles and crucified Him.

Christ is no longer walking around 'performing miracles'. This response is irrelevant.

We are repeatedly told to have faith/believe (which again is not knowledge).

We both agreed that knowledge/certainty of the Christian God of the Bible’s existence, today would produce knowledge of judgment and hell, which for the nonbelieving sinner is extremely frightening fearful. The Bible does tell us (1 Cor. 13: 1-4) that you have to have Love to do anything of value and fear does not produce Love.

In the Bible, we are repeatedly told that God answers prayers. And nowhere does it state that God limits His prayer responses --- to avoid the complete knowledge in Him. Heck, according to Romans 1:18-22, He claims we already do anyways. And the ones whom claim they don't have direct knowledge are simply in denial or clouded by sin.

Sure, the Bible does seem to revere 'faith', quite often.... However, the Bible does not look to exclude allowed knowledge of His existence, as well. Need I not again mention Sal of Tarsus, 'doubting Thomas", all whom claimed to see Jesus post resurrection, or the many whom claim to now KNOW God exists because God performed a 'medical miracle'?

Again, your reason(s) demonstrate contradiction.

If skeptics today see a perceived 'miracle', all many unbelievers might conclude, is that it is currently unexplainable. Hence, God could still answer prayers in healing for the amputees, cerebral palsy, and Downs, all-the-same.

I am only talking about sincere Christians praying and not all sensible people. These heals are impossible today, since God is not going to provide scientific proof of His existence for the reasons I gave.

As demonstrated, your 'reasons' contradict/conflict.

Most atheists would merely view such event(s) as unexplainable by 'science. But many would still scoff, or even continue rejecting the idea or assertion that the 'cure' came directly from YHWH. The phenomenon would merely produce many new unanswered questions.

Your BEST argument now then becomes, "God rejects any/all requests in prayer, which dispute 'scientific proof', merely to protect [me] specifically from complete knowledge. Talk about God playing favorites....

You provide two choices: “God exist” or “God does not exist” which is fine, but then you add what you consider the deciding factor for these two choices. We do not know what God would do about some healings if people did not pray for them to be healed, if it is God’s desire to heal them with our prays, since part of the desire of God to heal the person can be contingent on our prays. God answers all prays from a sincere believer.

You did not answer my simple question, again. Which of the two choices requires more assumption(s), a) or b)?

Since you do not seem eager to answer, I'll answer for you; preemptively. The answer looks to be b). I trust you also understand Occam's razor?

I agree totally and you sure will not Love someone you have a frightening fear of, what He might do to you.

According to the Bible, unbelief merits a 100% failure rate. I will burn in hell forever. You have nothing to loose, in praying for God to reveal Himself to me. Who knows? This entire dialogue could be over, lickity split....

These are needed opportunities for Christians.

This does nothing to address my question. Apparently, God loves all humans equally. But we look to have a contradiction, unless you now wish to provide additional assumption(s) about 'love'. Again, please observe Occam's razor.

Many small child are beaten, raped, and then murdered, before potential theodicy. Where does God's 'love' come into this for those individuals whom are directly responsible for their own salvation?

I agree totally and you sure will not Love someone you have a frightening fear of, what he might do to you.

According to the Bible, unbelief merits a 100% failure rate. I will burn in hell forever. You have nothing to loose, in praying for God to reveal Himself to me. Who knows? This entire dialogue could be over, lickity split....

I can take days if needed, but it would hurt you in that you would be trying to replace knowledge with believe. You, I and God keep saying: “you must believe”.

As I stated above, knowledge is also acceptable to God. Unless you wish to contradict yourself some more now?

 

[bling]

Because you asked me if I had proof that "impossible" prayers are never answered. I do not, but since both of us - as you yourself agree - disbelieve in a lot of things without having a definite disproof of them, I feel quite comfortable in saying that "impossible" prayers are never answered.

I might only add: “impossible prays that provide scientific proof for the nonbeliever of God’s existence will not be answered”.

Yes you are. That's exactly what you're saying. when you say it takes a leap of faith, it means you must believe that God exists before you have reason to do so.
Faith, in the religious sense, is nothing admirable. It's simply choosing to believe without good reason to. It's no more romantic or heartwarming to have faith in God without good reason than it is to have faith that you can step out of a tenth floor window and stroll to the ground.

When you wimp out, give up, and surrender to your hated enemy (God), you are still hating your enemy like any soldier at the point of surrendering hates the enemy. You are just trusting (faith/believe) that your hated enemy might just provide you with totally undeserved charity that you are now willing to accept. This selfish desire for just some type of livable life and a willingness to accept pure undeserved charity is all that is needed. Loving God comes after you believe/trust/have faith and God has showered you with unbelievable wonderful gifts, it is out of a gratefulness type of Love. The hell bound unbeliever has no reason to be grateful to God. Part of the wonderful gifts given by God after surrendering includes: the indwelling Holy Spirit, so you will know God exists and can Love Him, but you do not Love just hoping He might exist.

I did answer them. I said that you could just look at cvanwey's answers, because they are what I would have said.

Bling, I get that this is an unfair and irrational system. I just find it strange that you are telling me that it's therefore my fault for not doing something I am unable to do: believe in a God when there is no reason to do so.

Is eternal life in heaven and not going to hell a good reason to really check out the possibility of the Christian God’s existence? Refusing to believe/trust/ have faith does mean you are hell bound.

You seemed to go through it pretty rationally.

The choice of taking the gun shot is a willingness to go to hell, what I have said: “to be a real ‘choice’ there has to be likely alternatives (hell is not a like alternative anyone would choose).

No, it doesn't. Do you have this power, to make yourself believe in something without good reason? Let's test it. Put a pencil on the table in front of you. Can you choose to believe that it is now floating in the air, or glowing with light, or reciting the two times table?
I do not have a choice to believe in God. Lacking any evidence that He exists, I am unable to make myself believe that He does.

The lowliest mature adult on earth can choose to believe in a benevolent Creator, so what does he have that you are lacking?

You are excellent evidence that at least a god exists. How did an intelligent being like yourself come about? Is it more likely: space, time, energy and matter made you or space, time, energy, matter and intelligence made you? Depending on how you define intelligence, space, time, energy, matter and intelligence has made intelligence, but to believe intelligence was “made” from just space, time, energy and matter is virtually unbelievable, but if it did happen is life on earth the first lucky one?

If God were to reveal Himself in some indisputable way, we would then be in a position to make the choice He, and you, want us to make. We would be able to choose to love God, or not.

No you would not, because you would first be in fear of judgement and hell, with no pathway to Love.

I think you know exactly what I mean. And I think all Christians do, which is why they pray for people to recover from sickness (something that may happen, if we're lucky, whether we're Christians or not) but never for people to come back from the dead (something that never happens, which is why Christians never bother praying for it - even though their own religion says that their prayers could be answered).

A true Christian is in tune with the indwelling Holy Spirit’s desires, so they would not be praying for anything God would not desire.

Not at all. Read what I said again:
Imagine we could collate the data of people recovering from sicknesses. Assume a population of one million atheists, one million Christians and one million believers of a different, false religion.
The atheists will not be praying. Therefore, their recovery rates will be strictly natural.
The believers of a false religion will be praying, but their prayers will be ineffective since they are praying to the wrong God. Therefore, their recovery rates will be strictly natural.
The Christians will be praying. Some of their prayers will not be answered by God but, as you your self have claimed, some of them will be. Therefore, their recovery rates will be unexpectedly higher, due to the fraction of prayers that God chooses to answer.
If your claim is true, this is the kind of thing we should be seeing. But we don't. Therefore, your claim that God answers some prayers for healing is demonstrably false.
Please explain to me what is wrong with this idea, given that you have said that God sometimes answers prayers for healing.

If God takes a Christian home, who I have prayed, for the best thing to happen to them, should I be sad for them or feel God did not answer my pray?

God can allow or create more opportunities around a Christian, then other people so more Love can be seen, experienced, extended, received and greater growth can take place.

Sure it does. I'd become a Christian tomorrow if I saw a person pray for an amputee to be healed, and for the healing to take place.

A Christian is a believer and not just someone with knowledge of God. Why would you “trust” the Christian God to save you?

Yes, you said. But Christians also pray for God asking Him for things, as you've also admitted. and it's very strange indeed that they only ever pray for things which may happen anyway.
You see, I don't buy all this apologetic you have about God not wanting to reveal Himself. In the first place, it doesn't make sense (see above) and in the second place, people just don't think like that. You're telling me that a believing Christian mother with a sick child, for example, will pray night and day to God to heal her child but then, if the child dies, you're telling me the Christian mother will be thinking: Well, God could bring my daughter back to life, of course, but if He did, he'd be tipping His hand and the atheists of the world would therefore be deprived of their chance to come to Him through faith. so I'd better not pray for my dearest, beloved child to come back to life.
Nonsense.

That is about the way it works. The mother would also realize God wanted her with him sooner then later and they can spend eternity together, yet terribly missed for this time on earth. Friends and family have gone on and I look forward to seeing them again. She can be a great witness to others who loss a child, but do not tell her that to begin with.

First of all, of course anyone would be afraid of hell if they actually believed in it. Second, what's wrong with that? Fear, as Sherlock Holmes almost said, is wisdom in the face of danger.

There is no path from frightening fear to faith/trust/believing. You cannot correctly worship a being you are frightened of.

 

[bling]

As the OP suggests, Christians know not to pray for amputees, cerebral palsy, diabetes 1, etc, because [you/they] know 'God' does not address 'impossible' requests This observation has nothing to do with your claims that He fears too much 'knowledge' by humans will spoil the process. You have only proven to illustrate further contradiction. Stay tuned...



By your logic, this means any family, whom has someone with missing limbs, cerebral palsy, or Downs, whom are all also Christian, do not ever possess enough 'Godly type love'. But, on the contrary, many families, whom have someone with cancer and pray, often times do have enough 'Godly type love.'

That is not what I am saying at all!

How about this....? Have the ones whom do possess enough 'Godly type love', like the ones whom experience fulfilled God requests in cures for cancer, simply also pray for the the amputees, cerebral palsy, and Downs?

You seem to suggest the person with a strong Godly type Love has been granted three wishes by God the Genie. It is not the person, but God who decides keep the person and everyone else actions and mind set in His mind.

Here is your first contradiction. If modern atheists saw, what they perceived as true 'miracles', most would still not believe it came from the request of a deity. Many/most would chalk up the observed event(s) as simply unexplainable, but not assign the attributed miracle(s) directly to YHWH. Hence, 'knowledge' would certainly still not be achieved.

We are talking about lots of really amazing Miracle seen by lots of people at the same time. Yes, science would say: “If something does happen it naturally occurred”, because God’s actions are outside of science.

If the person does not have, like you suggest, knowledge of the Christian God’s existence then they still could use faith, but if any in the group would go from being a skeptic to having knowledge of the Christian God’s existence, the miracle will not happen to provide such proof.

A second contradiction has now been provided; to your assertion that God does not heal the 'impossible', for fear of lack in the 'freewill/choice/belief' of all skeptics.

Back during this time, many/most were very superstitious. Many stoned, persecuted, or even murdered, because they attributed such observation(s) to witch craft, evil spirits, false prophets, and/or etc. Back during this time, if something happened, which was unexplainable, many would attribute such observation as 'evil', in need of direct retaliation.

Back during this time, may/most were very superstitious. Many stoned, persecuted, or even murdered, because they attributed such observation(s) to witch craft, evil spirits, false prophets, and/or etc. Back during this time, if something happened, which was unexplainable, many would attribute such observation as 'evil', in need of direct retaliation.
Nowadays, we just scratch our heads. If God was intervening in amputees, cerebral palsy, and Downs, all any of us could logically conclude, is that 'science' itself does not seem to have the answer. As stated time and time again, simple observation.

Not sure what you are asking?

In the Bible, we are repeatedly told that God answers prayers. And nowhere does it state that God limits His prayer responses --- to avoid the complete knowledge in Him. Heck, according to Romans 1:18-22, He claims we already do anyways. And the ones whom claim they don't have direct knowledge are simply in denial or clouded by sin
Sure, the Bible does seem to revere 'faith', quite often.... However, the Bible does not look to exclude allowed knowledge of His existence, as well. Need I not again mention Sal of Tarsus, 'doubting Thomas", all whom claimed to see Jesus post resurrection, or the many whom claim to now KNOW God exists because God performed a 'medical miracle'?

If skeptics today see a perceived 'miracle', all many unbelievers might conclude, is that it is currently unexplainable. Hence, God could still answer prayers in healing for the amputees, cerebral palsy, and Downs, all-the-same.

Paul back when he was Saul was a religious fanatic of the “true religion”, up until Christianity (no one can match that condition today). Saul had to make a huge transition, giving up his prestigious position, his fame, his glory before men, his heroes, his friends, and swallow his huge pride of doing what he thought was righteously right to admitting He is the chief of sinners. Right after the Damascus Road experience, Saul would have had a great temptation to believe he had a heat stroke, fell off his horse, stared at the sun to long blinding him and had a weird nightmare. You are not a modern day “Saul”.

Even if “most” unbelievers might still need faith and thus for them the miracle would not proof anything, like everyone could do in the first century: giving cause to even satan, there would be some who would see this as scientific proof and thus not allowed by God.

Most atheists would merely view such event(s) as unexplainable by 'science. But many would still scoff, or even continue rejecting the idea or assertion that the 'cure' came directly from YHWH. The phenomenon would merely produce many new unanswered questions.

Your BEST argument now then becomes, "God rejects any/all requests in prayer, which dispute 'scientific proof', merely to protect [me] specifically from complete knowledge. Talk about God playing favorites....

You did not answer my simple question, again. Which of the two choices requires more assumption(s), a) or b)?

Since you do not seem eager to answer, I'll answer for you; preemptively. The answer looks to be b). I trust you also understand Occam's razor?

It is always much less assuming to believe there is a God, then to believe there is no God.

According to the Bible, unbelief merits a 100% failure rate. I will burn in hell forever. You have nothing to loose, in praying for God to reveal Himself to me. Who knows? This entire dialogue could be over, lickity split....

Again, if I pray for you to have unquestionable knowledge of God, that eliminates your ability to just believe in the possible existence of a benevolent Creator, while it is faith that saves you (knowledge is not said to save you).

This does nothing to address my question. Apparently, God loves all humans equally. But we look to have a contradiction, unless you now wish to provide additional assumption(s) about 'love'. Again, please observe Occam's razor.

Many small child are beaten, raped, and then murdered, before potential theodicy. Where does God's 'love' come into this for those individuals whom are directly responsible for their own salvation?

Please read the story of the Rich man and Lazarus Luke 16:

19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ 25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’ 27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ 29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ 30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ 31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

The fact that dogs licked the sores of Lazarus suggests he was mentally handy capped, never reaching to age of accountability, but if not, it would apply to such individuals. Someone for whatever reason never reaches maturity to the point of being responsible for their sins doe not need to be “saved”, but are in a safe condition. If they die, they would go to heaven, but would not have had the opportunity to fulfill their earthly objective.

God Loved both the rich man and Lazarus, so out of God’s Love for the Rich man, Lazarus each day provided the very best opportunity for the rich man to experience true Godly type Love by just stopping to help Lazarus instead of just tripping over him. Yes, Lazarus had a very hard life, but he did what he was suppose to do and thus was rewarded extensively in heaven. It would have been wonderful if the rich man and Lazarus has lived together and gone to heaven together. Eternity in Heaven can sure make up for the hard times Lazarus had on earth and Christians here now should not need any better life then Lazarus had.

According to the Bible, unbelief merits a 100% failure rate. I will burn in hell forever. You have nothing to loose, in praying for God to reveal Himself to me. Who knows? This entire dialogue could be over, lickity split....

As I stated above, knowledge is also acceptable to God. Unless you wish to contradict yourself some more now?

Believe, trust and faith are said to save you, but knowledge is not said to save you? Saved individuals are believers and Christians, so they will be granted lots of knowledge. Saul of Tarsus still had to believe and he had a very strong motivation to not believe, you are not like him as I explained above.

 

[cvanwey]

That is not what I am saying at all!

Yes.... It is what you said.

"All these tragedies no matter how severe are, unfortunately, needed opportunities for true Christians to display Godly type Love (God Himself) to others."

Many are apparently having prayers answered. But never the amputees, or the ones with cerebral palsy, or the ones with Downs. By process of elimination, this means none of these folks possess 'Godly type Love'; where-as the ones praying for cancer often do possess 'Godly type Love'

Quite the coincidence....

You seem to suggest the person with a strong Godly type Love has been granted three wishes by God the Genie. It is not the person, but God who decides keep the person and everyone else actions and mind set in His mind.

Nope.

Many are apparently having prayers answered. But never the amputees, or the ones with cerebral palsy, or the ones with Downs. By process of elimination, this means none of these folks possess 'Godly type Love'; where-as the ones praying for cancer often do possess 'Godly type Love'

Quite the coincidence....

We are talking about lots of really amazing Miracle seen by lots of people at the same time. Yes, science would say: “If something does happen it naturally occurred”, because God’s actions are outside of science.

If the person does not have, like you suggest, knowledge of the Christian God’s existence then they still could use faith, but if any in the group would go from being a skeptic to having knowledge of the Christian God’s existence, the miracle will not happen to provide such proof.

Patently false. My brother in law claims He has knowledge of God. When he was young, he had a hole in his heart. The cardiologist stated it could not be fixed without surgical intervention. However, after prayer, the hole eventually closed on it's own. This is the reason He claims knowledge of God, and he claims God does answer prayers. He has no doubt. Unless you are saying he is now going to hell, for having secured knowledge????

Hence, God could surely cure amputees, cerebral palsy, and Downs all-the-same... But He doesn't. Curious....

Not sure what you are asking?

I did not ask a question here. I stated that long ago, people attributed all sorts of unknowns as miracles. Now, many just chalk them up to "I don't know." Hence, God could certainly cure amputees, cerebral palsy, and Downs, and it's likely many/most skeptics/doubters would not chalk up the event as from the Christian God. Therefore, God would not be providing direct knowledge to these skeptics/doubters, whom somehow require faith instead of direct knowledge

Paul back when he was Saul was a religious fanatic of the “true religion”, up until Christianity (no one can match that condition today). Saul had to make a huge transition, giving up his prestigious position, his fame, his glory before men, his heroes, his friends, and swallow his huge pride of doing what he thought was righteously right to admitting He is the chief of sinners. Right after the Damascus Road experience, Saul would have had a great temptation to believe he had a heat stroke, fell off his horse, stared at the sun to long blinding him and had a weird nightmare. You are not a modern day “Saul”.

Even if “most” unbelievers might still need faith and thus for them the miracle would not proof anything, like everyone could do in the first century: giving cause to even satan, there would be some who would see this as scientific proof and thus not allowed by God.

You have no more clue, than I, what Paul thought internally.

And like I keep saying, God could cure amputees, cerebral palsy, and Downs, and most unbelievers would still not claim knowledge to God.

And like I also said, knowledge does not prevent heaven. Many claim to have direct knowledge, with no doubt. I'm sure they are all not automatically hell-bound. And furthermore, God claims He will give everyone direct knowledge anyhow. And further still, many claim direct knowledge now. Knowledge is not a direct disqualifier, is it?

It is always much less assuming to believe there is a God, then to believe there is no God.

I'm going to repeat my points, since you glossed over them:

1. God would have to be playing favorites, to spite all requests to heal amputees, cerebral palsy, and Downs, just to assure that I do not connect the dots, and claim knowledge to God's answer in prayer.

2. In accordance with Occam's razor, is it more logical to continue placing many extra assumptions, to support your belief that God answers prayer? Verses to conclude that God either does not exist, or does not answer prayer?

Again, if I pray for you to have unquestionable knowledge of God, that eliminates your ability to just believe in the possible existence of a benevolent Creator, while it is faith that saves you (knowledge is not said to save you).

I call 'bull' here. You are actually likely afraid that your prayer would not be fulfilled. --- Pure and simple... You have no clue what I would do if God answered your prayer request. If you were confident that God answers prayer, I doubt you would have much problem performing accordingly. Just like you have no problem in this endless exchange to support your beliefs... And yet, when I ask you to place your money where your mouth is, with a 10 second request, you run. Curious indeed...

It's funny how when Christians are pressed for direct and actual demonstration of their beliefs, they often back pedal, or give flimsy and/or unfounded excuses...

Please read the story of the Rich man and Lazarus Luke 16:

19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ 25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’ 27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ 29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ 30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ 31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

The fact that dogs licked the sores of Lazarus suggests he was mentally handy capped, never reaching to age of accountability, but if not, it would apply to such individuals. Someone for whatever reason never reaches maturity to the point of being responsible for their sins doe not need to be “saved”, but are in a safe condition. If they die, they would go to heaven, but would not have had the opportunity to fulfill their earthly objective.

God Loved both the rich man and Lazarus, so out of God’s Love for the Rich man, Lazarus each day provided the very best opportunity for the rich man to experience true Godly type Love by just stopping to help Lazarus instead of just tripping over him. Yes, Lazarus had a very hard life, but he did what he was suppose to do and thus was rewarded extensively in heaven. It would have been wonderful if the rich man and Lazarus has lived together and gone to heaven together. Eternity in Heaven can sure make up for the hard times Lazarus had on earth and Christians here now should not need any better life then Lazarus had.

Then why not abort the offspring of the ones you will love. They can have a guaranteed and direct path to heaven, without any prior suffering. Or, having the fear that your offspring may later make the wrong choice, and be sent to hell by God for not believing?

Believe, trust and faith are said to save you, but knowledge is not said to save you? Saved individuals are believers and Christians, so they will be granted lots of knowledge. Saul of Tarsus still had to believe and he had a very strong motivation to not believe, you are not like him as I explained above.

And as I explained, knowledge does not exclude a would-be person from heaven. Disbelief, however, apparently does...

Can you pray for God to contact me now? If not, please also re-read what I stated above; about calling 'bull'....

 

[bling]

Yes.... It is what you said.

"All these tragedies no matter how severe are, unfortunately, needed opportunities for true Christians to display Godly type Love (God Himself) to others."

Many are apparently having prayers answered. But never the amputees, or the ones with cerebral palsy, or the ones with Downs. By process of elimination, this means none of these folks possess 'Godly type Love'; where-as the ones praying for cancer often do possess 'Godly type Love'

Quite the coincidence....



Nope.

Many are apparently having prayers answered. But never the amputees, or the ones with cerebral palsy, or the ones with Downs. By process of elimination, this means none of these folks possess 'Godly type Love'; where-as the ones praying for cancer often do possess 'Godly type Love'

Quite the coincidence.....

All tragedies are needed to provide opportunities for true Christians to show, experience, extend, receive and grow Godly type Love. It has nothing to do with the people praying, for those lacking Love and those full of Love have the same opportunities. The rich man in the rich man and Lazarus story was provide daily by God with the very best opportunity to experience Godly type love first hand, by helping Lazarus, but did not. A true Christian today confronted with the same situation, needs to stop, help Lazarus, invite Lazarus into his house for a meal and even provide a place for him to stay. The true Christian today is not going to miraculously heal Lazarus, but that is not what is needed to show Godly type Love to Lazarus.

Patently false. My brother in law claims He has knowledge of God. When he was young, he had a hole in his heart. The cardiologist stated it could not be fixed without surgical intervention. However, after prayer, the hole eventually closed on it's own. This is the reason He claims knowledge of God, and he claims God does answer prayers. He has no doubt. Unless you are saying he is now going to hell, for having secured knowledge????.

I am not saying miracles do not happen today. Did your brother-in-law see the hole in his heart or just believe he had a hole in his heart?

You might have as much evidence as your brother-in-law concerning this healing, but you do not see it as proof for God’s existence, so does your brother-in-law have a greater “faith” than you have?

Your brother-in-law should have knowledge as a Christian; of God’s existence and assurance of God fulfilling all His promises from him having the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Holes in the heart have closed on their own, for non-Christians.

I did not ask a question here. I stated that long ago, people attributed all sorts of unknowns as miracles. Now, many just chalk them up to "I don't know." Hence, God could certainly cure amputees, cerebral palsy, and Downs, and it's likely many/most skeptics/doubters would not chalk up the event as from the Christian God. Therefore, God would not be providing direct knowledge to these skeptics/doubters, whom somehow require faith instead of direct knowledge .

Should all the Trump followers “chalk up” him being elected to a second term with “I don’t know” and believe him, or are there facts we would expect them to find out about?

If all the amputees on earth, had on Dec 1,2020 what they lacked, suddenly grow back, people would not just say: “I don’t know” and walk away like nothing happened.

You have no more clue, than I, what Paul thought internally.

And like I keep saying, God could cure amputees, cerebral palsy, and Downs, and most unbelievers would still not claim knowledge to God.

And like I also said, knowledge does not prevent heaven. Many claim to have direct knowledge, with no doubt. I'm sure they are all not automatically hell-bound. And furthermore, God claims He will give everyone direct knowledge anyhow. And further still, many claim direct knowledge now. Knowledge is not a direct disqualifier, is it?.

I never said: “Knowledge disqualifies anyone”. True Christians with the full knowledge of God’s existence through the indwelling Holy Spirit are not “disqualified”. Every Christian made a truly autonomous free will choice with faith to accept or reject God’s charity. After that act of faith, they were all granted knowledge through the indwelling Holy Spirit, but first had to use faith to accept God’s charity.

Certain knowledge eliminates the need for this initial “faith” of acceptance, by making it no real autonomous free will choice with likely alternatives, since hell is not a likely alternative.

I'm going to repeat my points, since you glossed over them:

1. God would have to be playing favorites, to spite all requests to heal amputees, cerebral palsy, and Downs, just to assure that I do not connect the dots, and claim knowledge to God's answer in prayer.

2. In accordance with Occam's razor, is it more logical to continue placing many extra assumptions, to support your belief that God answers prayer? Verses to conclude that God either does not exist, or does not answer prayer?.

Would it be logical for God to provide you with unquestionable evidence of His existence and not everyone else?

There is no real “assumption”, to logically understand why the Christian God would not provide scientifically verifiable proof to all humans of His unquestionable existence.

I know Paul pretty well from his writings and like experiences.

I call 'bull' here. You are actually likely afraid that your prayer would not be fulfilled. --- Pure and simple... You have no clue what I would do if God answered your prayer request. If you were confident that God answers prayer, I doubt you would have much problem performing accordingly. Just like you have no problem in this endless exchange to support your beliefs... And yet, when I ask you to place your money where your mouth is, with a 10 second request, you run. Curious indeed...

It's funny how when Christians are pressed for direct and actual demonstration of their beliefs, they often back pedal, or give flimsy and/or unfounded excuses....

No, I am not “afraid” that this pray might not be answered, since I would not pray for them to be answered against your best interest.

Then why not abort the offspring of the ones you will love. They can have a guaranteed and direct path to heaven, without any prior suffering. Or, having the fear that your offspring may later make the wrong choice, and be sent to hell by God for not believing?.

This is another huge topic, but briefly: The person or child who never reaches the age of accountability does not need to be saved, but is in a safe condition. The problem with them dying before reaching the age of accountability, means they will not have fulfilled their earthly objective and would go to heaven without Godly type Love.

And as I explained, knowledge does not exclude a would-be person from heaven. Disbelief, however, apparently does...

Can you pray for God to contact me now? If not, please also re-read what I stated above; about calling 'bull'....

I explained to you why I can’t.

You have to be able to believe before you can disbelieve, but you are saying you can’t believe, so can you disbelieve?

 

[cvanwey]

All tragedies are needed to provide opportunities for true Christians to show, experience, extend, receive and grow Godly type Love. It has nothing to do with the people praying, for those lacking Love and those full of Love have the same opportunities. The rich man in the rich man and Lazarus story was provide daily by God with the very best opportunity to experience Godly type love first hand, by helping Lazarus, but did not. A true Christian today confronted with the same situation, needs to stop, help Lazarus, invite Lazarus into his house for a meal and even provide a place for him to stay. The true Christian today is not going to miraculously heal Lazarus, but that is not what is needed to show Godly type Love to Lazarus.

The discussion of philanthropy is a completely different topic, verses prayer. If the OP brought up observation about Matthew 7:12, Luke 12:33, or many others, then your response here would be somewhat relevant for discussion.

We seem to be at a stalemate. You do not appear to provide any reason to counter my direct observation.

Again...

Many are apparently having prayers answered. But never the amputees, or the ones with cerebral palsy, or the ones with Downs.

Many heartfelt requests go out to God for prayers in healing. Seems quite odd He ignores any/all requests to heal, in which cannot be healed on our own somehow. But He heals, at an exponential rate, the conditions for which humans can tackle directly upon their own somehow.

Coincidence?

I am not saying miracles do not happen today. Did your brother-in-law see the hole in his heart or just believe he had a hole in his heart?

You might have as much evidence as your brother-in-law concerning this healing, but you do not see it as proof for God’s existence, so does your brother-in-law have a greater “faith” than you have?

Your brother-in-law should have knowledge as a Christian; of God’s existence and assurance of God fulfilling all His promises from him having the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Holes in the heart have closed on their own, for non-Christians.

I'm sensing some back-pedaling here...

My brother-in-law is a true believer because he feels he experienced a miracle, via answered prayer. When I asked him why he believes, he spot-lighted this story.

You seemed to mention, many posts ago, that God does not answer prayers, for which 'science' cannot address, because it would remove your free will choice to believe or have faith.

According to my brother's testimony, this is what lead him to 'know.' Prior to this, he had much doubt.

Thus, (a) did God intervene? or, (b) is my brother-in-law mistaken, and the hole did just closed on it's own? (...and before you answer, you also claim below, that God does perform miracles.)

Should all the Trump followers “chalk up” him being elected to a second term with “I don’t know” and believe him, or are there facts we would expect them to find out about?

If all the amputees on earth, had on Dec 1,2020 what they lacked, suddenly grow back, people would not just say: “I don’t know” and walk away like nothing happened.

All skeptics would know, is that limbs never used to grow back, and now do. We would then enter the exciting and vast topic of external world skepticism. But I"m still pretty sure many/most/all skeptics/atheists/agnostics would not immediately attribute such a phenomenon to YHWH. Why?

a. Many pray to differing god(s) for healing as well.

b. Why would this God deny all prior requests, but then suddenly start now? (i.e.) Polio, measles, STD's, etc etc etc....

c. However, you would NOW at least have a 'leg to stand upon', no pun intended. Reversals of conditions would now be observed, for which humans cannot address/resolve on their own. The topic of external world skepticism would now have to include prayer as one of many viable options; verses the current possibility than humans are merely only talking to themselves.

I never said: “Knowledge disqualifies anyone”. True Christians with the full knowledge of God’s existence through the indwelling Holy Spirit are not “disqualified”. Every Christian made a truly autonomous free will choice with faith to accept or reject God’s charity. After that act of faith, they were all granted knowledge through the indwelling Holy Spirit, but first had to use faith to accept God’s charity.

Certain knowledge eliminates the need for this initial “faith” of acceptance, by making it no real autonomous free will choice with likely alternatives, since hell is not a likely alternative.

This is why I asked... If knowledge does not disqualify, then nothing you state above is relevant. God claims He already has provided everyone with direct knowledge (believers/non-believers/doubters alike). God also states He will make His presence known again, at a later date. He seems to mention that all the ones whom receive this knowledge presentation, will still have a choice of whether or not to follow, moving forward. In such a case, I would imagine some would then freely choose to follow, and some won't.

God's provision to direct knowledge of His existence looks to be a foregone asserted conclusion by God Himself. So what is He waiting for? Especially when some request such knowledge, over and over and over again; in the seeking of His actual existence?

And again, if 'knowledge does not disqualify', then please pray for God to give me direct knowledge of His existence It will take you seconds, and this entire thread between you and I can end. I can then begin to form my relationship with the one true God.

Would it be logical for God to provide you with unquestionable evidence of His existence and not everyone else?

There is no real “assumption”, to logically understand why the Christian God would not provide scientifically verifiable proof to all humans of His unquestionable existence.

I know Paul pretty well from his writings and like experiences.

I see more circumnavigation here Please address the actual inquiries.

1. God would have to be playing favorites, to never address any amputees, cerebral palsy, and Downs, to assure that I alone do not connect the dots.

2. What requires MORE assumption(s)?
a). God does not answer prayer.
b). What [you] are doing...

No, I am not “afraid” that this pray might not be answered, since I would not pray for them to be answered against your best interest.

If 'knowledge does not disqualify', then please pray for God to give me direct knowledge of His existence It will take you seconds, and this entire thread between you and I can end. I can then begin to form my relationship with the one true God. If you continue to refuse, I will continue to assert you are not so sure that not only does God not really intervene, but maybe there is no God there to interact at all.

If you do not, then I can only keep restating below...

Again, please remember:

- According to the Bible, disbelief guarantees hell.
- According to you, knowledge does not guarantee hell.

This is another huge topic, but briefly: The person or child who never reaches the age of accountability does not need to be saved, but is in a safe condition. The problem with them dying before reaching the age of accountability, means they will not have fulfilled their earthly objective and would go to heaven without Godly type Love.

I see problems here.. But we agree, this is off topic, so I will abort further inquiry on this topic

You have to be able to believe before you can disbelieve, but you are saying you can’t believe, so can you disbelieve?

Deepity detected....

 

[bling]

The discussion of philanthropy is a completely different topic, verses prayer. If the OP brought up observation about Matthew 7:12, Luke 12:33, or many others, then your response here would be somewhat relevant for discussion.

We seem to be at a stalemate. You do not appear to provide any reason to counter my direct observation.

Again...

Many are apparently having prayers answered. But never the amputees, or the ones with cerebral palsy, or the ones with Downs.

Many heartfelt requests go out to God for prayers in healing. Seems quite odd He ignores any/all requests to heal, in which cannot be healed on our own somehow. But He heals, at an exponential rate, the conditions for which humans can tackle directly upon their own somehow.

Coincidence?



I'm sensing some back-pedaling here...

My brother-in-law is a true believer because he feels he experienced a miracle, via answered prayer. When I asked him why he believes, he spot-lighted this story.

You seemed to mention, many posts ago, that God does not answer prayers, for which 'science' cannot address, because it would remove your free will choice to believe or have faith.

According to my brother's testimony, this is what lead him to 'know.' Prior to this, he had much doubt.

Thus, (a) did God intervene? or, (b) is my brother-in-law mistaken, and the hole did just closed on it's own? (...and before you answer, you also claim below, that God does perform miracles.)



All skeptics would know, is that limbs never used to grow back, and now do. We would then enter the exciting and vast topic of external world skepticism. But I"m still pretty sure many/most/all skeptics/atheists/agnostics would not immediately attribute such a phenomenon to YHWH. Why?

a. Many pray to differing god(s) for healing as well.

b. Why would this God deny all prior requests, but then suddenly start now? (i.e.) Polio, measles, STD's, etc etc etc....

c. However, you would NOW at least have a 'leg to stand upon', no pun intended. Reversals of conditions would now be observed, for which humans cannot address/resolve on their own. The topic of external world skepticism would now have to include prayer as one of many viable options; verses the current possibility than humans are merely only talking to themselves.



This is why I asked... If knowledge does not disqualify, then nothing you state above is relevant. God claims He already has provided everyone with direct knowledge (believers/non-believers/doubters alike). God also states He will make His presence known again, at a later date. He seems to mention that all the ones whom receive this knowledge presentation, will still have a choice of whether or not to follow, moving forward. In such a case, I would imagine some would then freely choose to follow, and some won't.

God's provision to direct knowledge of His existence looks to be a foregone asserted conclusion by God Himself. So what is He waiting for? Especially when some request such knowledge, over and over and over again; in the seeking of His actual existence?

And again, if 'knowledge does not disqualify', then please pray for God to give me direct knowledge of His existence It will take you seconds, and this entire thread between you and I can end. I can then begin to form my relationship with the one true God.



I see more circumnavigation here Please address the actual inquiries.

1. God would have to be playing favorites, to never address any amputees, cerebral palsy, and Downs, to assure that I alone do not connect the dots.

2. What requires MORE assumption(s)?
a). God does not answer prayer.
b). What [you] are doing...



If 'knowledge does not disqualify', then please pray for God to give me direct knowledge of His existence It will take you seconds, and this entire thread between you and I can end. I can then begin to form my relationship with the one true God. If you continue to refuse, I will continue to assert you are not so sure that not only does God not really intervene, but maybe there is no God there to interact at all.

If you do not, then I can only keep restating below...

Again, please remember:

- According to the Bible, disbelief guarantees hell.
- According to you, knowledge does not guarantee hell.



I see problems here.. But we agree, this is off topic, so I will abort further inquiry on this topic



Deepity detected....

We keep going round and round with little change in the responses.

As you point out God has not in the past provided scientific unquestionable proof to the unbelieving skeptic at any time and has not favored you to be an exception. I have provided a logical God Loving reason why nonbelievers need faith and how unquestionable knowledge of God’s existence for the nonbeliever would work against having faith in God’s existence. This does not mean knowledge of God’s existence is bad for the believer, but just the nonbeliever. As a reminder Paul back when he was Saul, had an extremely strong faith in God’s existence, but was not a believer in Christ as the Messiah.

God Love you enough to still allow you to become a believer, by not providing you with unquestionable knowledge of His existence at this time.

 

[cvanwey]

As you point out God has not in the past provided scientific unquestionable proof to the unbelieving skeptic at any time and has not favored you to be an exception.

You keep tripping all over yourself here. A few posts ago, you claimed God is not going to address amputees, cerebral palsy, or Downs, because He does not want the unbelievers to have complete knowledge of His existence.

I have pointed out that if we saw unexplainable cures to conditions for which humans cannot resolve by some other means, we would then logically have to place [answers to prayer] on the table, as a legitimate possibility. --- One of many....

What does this mean exactly? God could certainly address the amputees, cerebral palsy, and Downs, and God would still not be providing "scientific unquestionable proof" Why? Because us doubters would merely be observing many phenomenon for which humans cannot solve on their own. -- Such observation would then open up Pandora's box -- in exploring external world skepticism.

I have provided a logical God Loving reason why nonbelievers need faith and how unquestionable knowledge of God’s existence for the nonbeliever would work against having faith in God’s existence.

As you have pointed out, unbelievers do not require faith. You can still be accepted, by having direct knowledge. God seems to provide direct knowledge to some, and not others. However, as I've also stated many times now, disbelief mandates 100% rejection.

God knows many will not believe without perceived direct knowledge. If direct knowledge does not prohibit admission to heaven, and I am also pleading with you now to pray for Him to provide me with direct knowledge, then what seems to be the problem?

Like I keep stating... I only see one fundamental reason.... You likely know that either God will not comply, or, maybe you are not so sure there is a God there, in the first place, to address your request... (which brings us right back to the OP)

And yes, I know 'God is not a slot machine.' But I find it QUITE difficult to believe that someone whom cares to exchange with a believer, time and time again, whom repeatedly asks for knowledge of God, would be rejected. Doesn't God want a relationship with all whom seek after Him???????

This does not mean knowledge of God’s existence is bad for the believer, but just the nonbeliever.

Nonsense. See above...

As a reminder Paul back when he was Saul, had an extremely strong faith in God’s existence, but was not a believer in Christ as the Messiah.

God Love you enough to still allow you to become a believer, by not providing you with unquestionable knowledge of His existence at this time.

Nonsense. See above...

 

[bling]

You keep tripping all over yourself here. A few posts ago, you claimed God is not going to address amputees, cerebral palsy, or Downs, because He does not want the unbelievers to have complete knowledge of His existence.

I have pointed out that if we saw unexplainable cures to conditions for which humans cannot resolve by some other means, we would then logically have to place [answers to prayer] on the table, as a legitimate possibility. --- One of many....

What does this mean exactly? God could certainly address the amputees, cerebral palsy, and Downs, and God would still not be providing "scientific unquestionable proof" Why? Because us doubters would merely be observing many phenomenon for which humans cannot solve on their own. -- Such observation would then open up Pandora's box -- in exploring external world skepticism.

We already have: “Pray being one alternative” to lots of possible miracles, like with your brother-in-law, but you are asking for Scientifically verifiable miracles which proof the existence of the Christian God and not just another likely alternative.

As you have pointed out, unbelievers do not require faith. You can still be accepted, by having direct knowledge. God seems to provide direct knowledge to some, and not others. However, as I've also stated many times now, disbelief mandates 100% rejection.

God knows many will not believe without perceived direct knowledge. If direct knowledge does not prohibit admission to heaven, and I am also pleading with you now to pray for Him to provide me with direct knowledge, then what seems to be the problem?

When have I said: “unbelievers do not require faith”?

If a person has “direct knowledge” they are not believing what they have knowledge of, since faith is not knowledge.

Like I keep stating... I only see one fundamental reason.... You likely know that either God will not comply, or, maybe you are not so sure there is a God there, in the first place, to address your request... (which brings us right back to the OP)

And yes, I know 'God is not a slot machine.' But I find it QUITE difficult to believe that someone whom cares to exchange with a believer, time and time again, whom repeatedly asks for knowledge of God, would be rejected. Doesn't God want a relationship with all whom seek after Him???????

God is not way off somewhere only saving those who jump through hops to find Him. God is at your elbow, so all you have to do is trust/believe and accept Him, which anyone can do.

I (as a chemist) find it quite difficult to believe people have enough “evidence” to believe: “God does not exist”.

I do understand the nonbeliever’s need for faith.

 

[Tinker Grey]

I (as a chemist) find it quite difficult to believe people have enough “evidence” to believe: “God does not exist”.

You've been on this forum for 12 years, since 2008.

How is it you don't understand that atheism only entails the idea that there is a lack of evidence for gods? Granted some atheists go further, but it isn't necessary.

It takes no evidence to doubt the existence of a purple people eater. So, too, with gods.

 

[cvanwey]

We already have: “Pray being one alternative” to lots of possible miracles, like with your brother-in-law, but you are asking for Scientifically verifiable miracles which proof the existence of the Christian God and not just another likely alternative.

I've been asking why God does not bother to address earnest prayer requests for anyone with missing limbs, cerebral palsy, or Downs. But yet, often bothers to cure conditions and illnesses humans can likely resolve without having to explore the field of external world skepticism.

Thus far, your reason(s) have been quite lacking, unsubstantiated, and/or unfounded. Are you now ready to concede that it is quite curious as to why God would skip right over these inflictions, while having no problem addressing the ones for which humans may not be in any need of some external and/or unknown force or help at all?

When have I said: “unbelievers do not require faith”?

If a person has “direct knowledge” they are not believing what they have knowledge of, since faith is not knowledge.

Perhaps I was not quite clear enough? If I was provided with direct knowledge of THE God, I would then have a choice. I would either choose to follow, or choose to reject and not follow. Right?

You, yourself, have agreed, that direct knowledge does not prohibit the possibility of heaven. However, disbelief DOES. I have disbelief. It's fair to say, I have enough disbelief to warrant damnation by God, if He should happen to exist. But as I mentioned, LONG ago, you cannot control what you believe. I lack belief in your asserted God. Again...

- disbelief always equals hell
- knowledge, which sometimes leads to worship, sometimes leads to heaven

Please pray for God to give me knowledge. It will take you all of ten seconds. If you continue to refuse, then as I keep stating, maybe you are not so confident there exists this agent in which you profess - (which leads us back to the OP). Otherwise, why would God deny a direct request to get to know Him, if He also wishes to formulate relationships with His creation?

God is not way off somewhere only saving those who jump through hops to find Him. God is at your elbow, so all you have to do is trust/believe and accept Him, which anyone can do.

Again, you cannot control what you believe. We've already been over this, long ago...

Otherwise, make yourself believe when you drop a penny above the ground, with no obstruction, it will not drop to the ground. You do not even need to test it. Just make yourself believe it You can't. Hence, you cannot make yourself believe.

I (as a chemist) find it quite difficult to believe people have enough “evidence” to believe: “God does not exist”.

I do understand the nonbeliever’s need for faith.

This response is quite baffling... I do not assert that 'God does not exist'. I doubt He exists. There's a difference. I big difference. Just like you doubt Thor, Odin, Apollo, Xenu, and Poseidon; but cannot assert that they 'do not exist'.

Please do not forget about "Russel's teapot"

 

[bling]

You've been on this forum for 12 years, since 2008.

How is it you don't understand that atheism only entails the idea that there is a lack of evidence for gods? Granted some atheists go further, but it isn't necessary.

It takes no evidence to doubt the existence of a purple people eater. So, too, with gods.

Does there actions not say they believe there is no God?

 

[cvanwey]

Does there actions not say they believe there is no God?

If I may chime in here... I'm not sure who/whom you are specifically referring to, if anyone? But, speaking for myself, here's my take-away, thus far...

I'm not sure if humans were created by some purposeful agency??? However, I'm fairly confident the source of all of this is not from a character named YHWH. And once you can demonstrate how prayer is effectively to be used, in accordance with the Bible, then maybe you can then steer me onto a differing path. But until then, the Bible does not present consistency on the topic of prayer alone; without even examining anything further beyond this category.

 

[bling]

I've been asking why God does not bother to address earnest prayer requests for anyone with missing limbs, cerebral palsy, or Downs. But yet, often bothers to cure conditions and illnesses humans can likely resolve without having to explore the field of external world skepticism.

Thus far, your reason(s) have been quite lacking, unsubstantiated, and/or unfounded. Are you now ready to concede that it is quite curious as to why God would skip right over these inflictions, while having no problem addressing the ones for which humans may not be in any need of some external and/or unknown force or help at all?

Miraculously healing: a missing limbs, cerebral palsy and Downs at this time, would provide irrefutable scientific proof of the Christian God’s existent to at least some people without their need for faith in God’s existence. Faith is needed and required for salvation, so for the sack of these skeptics<God will not miraculously heal these individuals.

Perhaps I was not quite clear enough? If I was provided with direct knowledge of THE God, I would then have a choice. I would either choose to follow, or choose to reject and not follow. Right?

With the “Hell gun” at your head, you are not making a really choice with likely alternatives. The hell gun goes away with believing in God and not knowledge of God.

You, yourself, have agreed, that direct knowledge does not prohibit the possibility of heaven. However, disbelief DOES. I have disbelief. It's fair to say, I have enough disbelief to warrant damnation by God, if He should happen to exist. But as I mentioned, LONG ago, you cannot control what you believe. I lack belief in your asserted God. Again...

- disbelief always equals hell
- knowledge, which sometimes leads to worship, sometimes leads to heaven

If you start with faith then knowledge is great.

Knowledge without faith is disbelief and will not produce righteous worship.

You look at a tree and say: “I do not know how life could come about from nonliving chemicals, so God could be the answer.” What controls what you believe about “How life came about”?

Please pray for God to give me knowledge. It will take you all of ten seconds. If you continue to refuse, then as I keep stating, maybe you are not so confident there exists this agent in which you profess - (which leads us back to the OP). Otherwise, why would God deny a direct request to get to know Him, if He also wishes to formulate relationships with His creation?

You need faith and not knowledge. Faith/trust is a humbling activity and humility is need to accept pure charity as charity and you must be willing to humbly accept pure charity as charity for God to shower you with wonderful undeserving gifts. God is not going to force His charity (Love) you like at some shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun.

Otherwise, make yourself believe when you drop a penny above the ground, with no obstruction, it will not drop to the ground. You do not even need to test it. Just make yourself believe it You can't. Hence, you cannot make yourself believe.

You are being asked to place your faith in the most likely logical alternative and not something totally illogical.

This response is quite baffling... I do not assert that 'God does not exist'. I doubt He exists. There's a difference. I big difference. Just like you doubt Thor, Odin, Apollo, Xenu, and Poseidon; but cannot assert that they 'do not exist'.

Please do not forget about "Russel's teapot"

We are talking about the choice between alternatives (God exists or God does not exist) and which is the more likely.

This thread has been trying to show one supporting evidence for “God not existing”, being the fact, He does not seem to answer a pray that would give scientific verifiable proof for at least some people for His existence.

I have just pointed out the logical reason, why God has not and will not do such a thing.

 

[Tinker Grey]

Does there actions not say they believe there is no God?

If actions tell if one believes in God or not, then Christians don't believe in God anymore than atheists do.

2) There is a difference between "not believing in gods" and "believing there are no gods".