Why do Christians never pray for impossible things?

[Amittai]

... you too look to have dodged the direct question' while ironically butting in at the same time?.?

Many Christians claim God helped cure them of their unwanted inflictions, diseases, conditions, other.

Are they ALL mistaken?

Does God EVER intervene, via petitionary or intercessory prayer requests to heal?
... which perpetually excludes missing limbs, cerebral palsy, and Downs?

I don't know why Christians make disproportionate and probably irrelevant claims. Who was it just said "shower you with amazing gifts"? (I'm losing track of these threads) I don't know why Christians dodge the real point of the Christian life. I really don't. I never state any religion when corresponding with authority. When I infiltrate churches there are those who string me along, and those who tell me flat out I'm not welcome. I have my reasons for investigating. I think christians should pray. I think christians don't understand why. the god they created in their image doesn't exist. God's an atheist because he doesn't believe the twaddle that is talked about Him in churches. To most christians "god" is a mascot, something to show off.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

1 - agreed. This takes us into betwixt-and-between territory (rather than a complete whitewash)

2 - personally I've never been convinced by C S Lewis even while already a believer

3 - you appear to be acknowledging unobtrusively, some diversity among christians

4 - correct

5 - some of what some christians believe about God. See further at foot.

6 - I also believe his explanation (that I have seen so far) makes sense

7 - not only does the entity with that job description made in that image not do so, but the kind of people we are discussing have a strange fixation with miracles - see below

Points 5, 7: the nuances I'm giving don't actually much weaken what might be your point (I think)

Not sure what you're saying here, honestly. Could you explain your point a little more clearly?

 

[InterestedAtheist]

You cannot say: “Since some prays are not answered the way I think they should be answered, the Christian God does not answer any prays and follow up with the assumption “there is no God”.

I said no such thing.

No devout Christian wants his personal will to be done over what God sees as being the most benefit to the Kingdom.

I didn't say they did.

There is no benefit and there is even harm, for most societies today, to have outward obvious scientifically verifiable miracles that show the Christian God exists to the unbeliever.

First, that sounds like nonsense. I can imagine enormous benefits to Christianity if God were to work an obvious miracle, and I'm surprised that you can't, given the Bible is full of this kind of thing, as is Christian folk lore over the past two thousand years.
Second, even if it were true, so what? Are you saying it's God's job to watch over society and prevent it from coming to any possible harm? I doubt you are saying that, since God would seem to be doing a very poor job if that was so.
No, any objection that you make to God working miracles runs into the obvious counter-argument that God (allegedly) has a very long history of doing these things. Many Christians claim that He is doing them still today.
And third, if what you say was actually so, then Christians wouldn't be asking God for things at all. After all, who can tell what might be miraculous, or might come to seem miraculous? After all, supposing that Christian prayers are answered, as they believe they are - statistically speaking, we would see an awful lot of Christians recovering from illnesses that members of other or no religion do not. That would be awfully compelling evidence - perhaps it might even qualify as miraculous.
But no - Christians are asking God for things all the time. We've seen plenty of evidence for this. It just leaves the obvious question, why do they only pray for things that might happen anyway?
You've done much better than others in trying to answer this. I think you might be the only person who actually addressed the question! But still, your answers don't explain, as I've shown above.

Would your personal knowledge of the Christian God’s existence make you Christ like?

Since I doubt there is any person in the world who would claim to be Christ like, my answer is no.

 

[cvanwey]

I don't know why Christians make disproportionate and probably irrelevant claims. Who was it just said "shower you with amazing gifts"? (I'm losing track of these threads) I don't know why Christians dodge the real point of the Christian life. I really don't. I never state any religion when corresponding with authority. When I infiltrate churches there are those who string me along, and those who tell me flat out I'm not welcome. I have my reasons for investigating. I think christians should pray. I think christians don't understand why. the god they created in their image doesn't exist. God's an atheist because he doesn't believe the twaddle that is talked about Him in churches. To most christians "god" is a mascot, something to show off.

You are getting close, but you are still dodging the observation. I'll try again...

DOES God EVER answer the call, in petitionary and intercessory prayer requests, to HEAL? [Yes] or [no]????

If [yes], then you, as a Christian, must then also reconcile that God always skips over ANY and ALL requests to 'heal' people with missing limbs, cerebral palsy, and Downs syndrome. But seems to aid in the healing of inflictions and conditions for which either 'science' and/or the bodies own defenses may heal upon their own, without aid in prayer.

If [no], then claimed petitionary and intercessory prayer requests, to HEAL, are ALL bogus.

 

[Amittai]

...

DOES God EVER answer the call, in petitionary and intercessory prayer requests, to HEAL? [Yes] or [no]???? 1

If [yes], then you, as a Christian, must then also reconcile that God always skips over ANY and ALL requests to 'heal' people with missing limbs, cerebral palsy, and Downs syndrome. 2 But seems to aid in the healing of inflictions and conditions for which either 'science' and/or the bodies own defenses may heal upon their own, without aid in prayer. 3

If [no], then claimed petitionary and intercessory prayer requests, to HEAL, are ALL bogus.

4

1 - see nos. 2, 3

2 - correct, as far as I know. I've known when Down's cases improved considerably more than "expected by doctors" after continued prayers which sounds like a crossover with 3.

3 - correct, as far as I know.

4 - well arguable that especially an expectation may be bogus (seeing as they may not say what they mean: some people crack a joke while they are praying).

I don't think many Christians understand what prayer on any subject is for and I am glad it is being probed. Contributors to the prayer threads on the forum might be largely an exception though I've not much way of telling, generally.

I investigate things about churches a great deal, that make them uncomfortable that I do so, and for reasons I'm going to discuss with them. My degrees of inference are about my way of navigating the people around me and are not designed to prove a point to anyone.

 

[cvanwey]

4

1 - see nos. 2, 3

2 - correct, as far as I know. I've known when Down's cases improved considerably more than "expected by doctors" after continued prayers which sounds like a crossover with 3.

3 - correct, as far as I know.

4 - well arguable that especially an expectation may be bogus (seeing as they may not say what they mean: some people crack a joke while they are praying).

I don't think many Christians understand what prayer on any subject is for and I am glad it is being probed. Contributors to the prayer threads on the forum might be largely an exception though I've not much way of telling, generally.

I investigate things about churches a great deal, that make them uncomfortable that I do so, and for reasons I'm going to discuss with them. My degrees of inference are about my way of navigating the people around me and are not designed to prove a point to anyone.

I'm sorry. Your answer, though appreciated, appears convoluted?

Is it possible you are merely demonstrating post hoc rationalization? And prayer is not proven to work?

 

[Amittai]

I'm sorry. Your answer, though appreciated, appears convoluted?

Is it possible you are merely demonstrating post hoc rationalization? And prayer is not proven to work?

Not proven to work is a very different thing than proven not to work.

You folks asked for opinions and you are going to get a whole load of opinions back. Not conforming to a script. You have your powers of open-ended inference.

Surely you've got to additionally admit the parallel hypothesis that I am not "merely" "demonstrating post hoc rationalization"?

In big subjects lines cut in all directions as it happens. I didn't cook up the world - I just navigate it, and for me. When was something "not proven" (in the modern sense) so sensational? In the medieval sense "proven" did mean no more than hypothetical. We get by with confidence precisely because we can be firmly tentative about everything. What we can't pin down, intrigues - fortunately!

As to prayers there is sometimes a metaphorical mental or social or other meaning in bodily healing. Wordings are usually hit and miss - they might refer to what gave us the idea to pray. Ongoing "outcomes" are what is going to matter more. But I suspect few Christians understand that, unfortunately.

Hence, confusion can arise if one adheres superstitiously to the exact wording of a prayer - I'm sure God doesn't.

 

[cvanwey]

Not proven to work is a very different thing than proven not to work.

You folks asked for opinions and you are going to get a whole load of opinions back. Not conforming to a script. You have your powers of open-ended inference.

Surely you've got to additionally admit the parallel hypothesis that I am not "merely" "demonstrating post hoc rationalization"?

In big subjects lines cut in all directions as it happens. I didn't cook up the world - I just navigate it, and for me. When was something "not proven" (in the modern sense) so sensational? In the medieval sense "proven" did mean no more than hypothetical. We get by with confidence precisely because we can be firmly tentative about everything. What we can't pin down, intrigues - fortunately!

As to prayers there is sometimes a metaphorical mental or social or other meaning in bodily healing. Wordings are usually hit and miss - they might refer to what gave us the idea to pray. Ongoing "outcomes" are what is going to matter more. But I suspect few Christians understand that, unfortunately.

Hence, confusion can arise if one adheres superstitiously to the exact wording of a prayer - I'm sure God doesn't.

I would partially agree with you here, if I'm gathering what you are implying...

You cannot 'disprove' that prayer does not work. Just like we likely cannot 'disprove' the existence of opposing asserted god(s), ghosts, spirits, aliens, etc... Disproving 'prayer' is really unfalsifiable. Hence, we unbelievers have to present the case, and let all make their own conclusions.

However, my observation still stands....

IF God DOES answer the call to petitionary and/or intercessory prayers to HEAL, then the very BEST the Christian can conclude, is that He ALWAYS skips requests to 'heal' amputees, cerebral palsy, and Downs.

Thus, the Christian is likely left scratching their heads.

 

[Amittai]

Why do Christians never pray for impossible things?

Newman and Popper contributed to identifying the inference and falsification bunch of issues. It's a shame they didn't correspond. Religious faith is rich in inference and low on falsification, as you have seen. Most branches of knowledge are well in the middle. Inference serves to keep a healthy amount of potential hypotheses in the air, for further investigation.

Human sciences in particular are individuating; most sciences are part individuating and part generalising; chemistry is an example of a rather generalising science. I think I was told this is in Windelband and Rickert among others.

Your observation is a good one except that some Christians probably realise (but don't explain) that God is less superstitious about sticking to the wording of a prayer than the managers of the social surveys we are aware of. But the only reason sociologists got the idea of framing their questions in that way is the "fundamentalism" that has seized the media and, through the media the mentality of most members of most churches (as I've seen to the devastation of the personalities of hundreds of people in my present town in the last two years).

I was very close to that milieu most of my life and couldn't figure out till very recently, why I was uneasy with it. Fundamentalism destroys civilisation because it disrespects the very fabric of the universe and life, and personalities. Fundamentalism also destroys relious belief itself, in its adherents. Hermeneutics was a good science and should have been continued honestly (and helps no end of other fields besides religion) and not with pretence by Barth, Carson or similar.

I think there have been cases which may or may not be deemed still "clinically" in the Downs or CP ballparks when improvement occurred after prayers (both explicit and implicit) in two different circumstances: both with and without personnel joining in / intervention of some kind. I think this flags up an interesting point about harnessing the "serendipity" / providence / spontaneity in the universe.

To some people I tell about the "serendipity" / providence / spontaneity in the universe leading up to help being given to me in middle age about my specific learning differences - believe me this is scandalously rare. One autistic agnostic lady, an author, who was "mixed" up in this, was delighted at the unusual way I had got wind of information she had been giving out, and doesn't feel in the slightest pressured to kow tow to any creed or organisation: she is just a good hearted person.

I wish the public would get back to awe and curiosity about what is around us all. Civilisation depended on big logic (= honesty) contributed in good will by people of all creeds and none. I don't believe in pressuring people - indeed I believe it against my religion and my Bible. Christianity will appear when churches let their members practice it. I feel I have to invent my own religion from thin air out of sheer bloody mindedness.

A destructive attitude to existence got passed on through Spinoza, Hume, Hegel, Bradley and the snake Heidegger. Russell was against this and while he missed some points who even listens to Russell? It would be nice if more people of all kinds examine time more. Most of my reading is tertiary and secondary but I construct plausible criteria by comparing, and by using thinking methods I was schooled out of in youth but reintroduced to by a workplace coach in middle age.

Every sentence I write or speak is an effort and churches don't like me because I don't press their buttons and they don't press mine. What they forget is they can't solve a button pressing problem wholly within the button pressing system (Godel). In the seventies we hoped for the best but that isn't enough - we've got to look sharp - all of us, even those of us that have been told we're not allowed. Pieter of Harlingen was slammed as the dirty stopout (and ideas above his station), never mind the fact that he staunched the breach in the dyke for a while. "Crippled Hans" was the one that had staying power after the other youth of Hamelin followed the Pied Piper.

Thus your observation is a good one and there is more to the subject at the same time - which most Christians are, unfortunately too inept to discuss. If some kinds of "god" exist they / it would be concerned that members develop the kind of integrity in their religiousness that mutually fosters qualities respecting what invisible help at all layers of personality and society, that may be around us and helpful for potentising individuality and subsidiarity (self-determination). What are we going to face in the future? Did I help someone meet it better, and to help others in turn? Gods are of all different attributes some big, some small; I read of some tribes who assume their gods enjoy a joke at their expense.

Missing a chance to "pay it forward" (as I often did) is something to unlearn, based on "fuel" / tools we may be called to, when we are called, how we are called. I am not an evangeliser but I think nothing I say contradicts genuine evangelisation. I may have hinted at criteria for distinguishing better from worse gospels.

I am "far too" pluralist for the current monolithising propaganda, in the world especially. Though we didn't have many books at home, my parents and most teachers had a phenomenal outlook. I am a henotheistic agnostic and also my current newfangled view of Trinity is one I don't yet get much echo of from others (though according to me it is all the more Biblical). "Bible believers" sadly, often, aren't. If any of this puzzles, it isn't intended to worry you: I hope I haven't miscontrued your story in an offensive sense.

I'm not trying to denigrate: I hope lots of people will pray I get coached in tactfulness and encouraging. I get where I get crabwise: this is the uneven sum of (a filtered selection of) what I've twigged as of this particular evening. I suppose others have to put in effort as well but they didn't realise! They wanted to be spoonfed.

 

[Amittai]

I think a lot of prayer is about catching healing currents in the fabric of the universe - if this sounds daft just ignore the idea. I would include healing of personality, relationships, morale. Scripture was meant to allude through parables - and especially by "how not to" cautionary tales - and was meant to be accompanied by insightful teaching.

As a "random individual" I'm not pushing anything on anybody. Spirituality as I see it might be an umbrella for intangibles: boundaries, dynamics (and I don't mean button pushing & NLP), relationships, values, morale.

I don't see morale as a superficial thing. It's what makes people stop getting desperate, giving up hope of virtues. Virtues aren't nasty things to have: a glance at a 2,350 year old list points out (and I paraphrase) prudence, good judgment, attention, taste, initiative, discretion, honesty, thirst for wholesome knowledge, refusal to give false deference, and the like.

I think people will only survive well if they get their faculties together / lined up (integrity). I have been horrified how some high profile "churches" have abandoned belief and a life of prayer. "Prayer" (TM) has become a stunt there.

The requests on the forum threads are not bogus because God will "translate" them into His own "language" if need be. The epithet "bogus" appears to impute motive and I don't think that's appropriate, whatever the state of insight or enlightenment a person has / hasn't.

 

[bling]

Pay careful attention to the parts of your response in bold.

1) I was a devout seeking Christian for 3 decades. I prayed and prayed and prayed, only never to feel I received any contact. Which looks to mean one of the following...

a) God either does not exist, and all others are mistaken.
b) God does exist, but has chosen to pass over me, even though the Bible seems to suggest otherwise, in many Verses about prayer.
c) God did contact me, but I'm too blinded by sin, as expressed in the Bible.

Thus far, a) seems most logical, since we have countless of people, whom claim to speak to differing god(s), opposed to yours. They cannot ALL be right, but you all can certainly all be mistaken.

In your 30 years seeking God, do you feel God was asking you to do some huge job here on earth, which you could ask for a huge sign, since it seems all He is asking of you is to humble accept His undeserved charitable gifts.

What you are telling me is either you did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit or you were quenching the Spirit.

The more likely is you never had the Spirit; you never experienced a shower of God’s gifts.

Did you fast and pray for a week?

When did you experience full immersion with water, believer baptism?

You seem to be asking for personal knowledge of God’s existence for your personal benefit, deserving an answer. There is a huge problem with that. Anytime you ask God for something you think you deserve; God will not give it to you. You can certainly ask God for help, but please understand if He provides help to you it is not because you deserve it, because when given, it is pure undeserved charity.

We know: “knowledge is power”, so when you are asking for knowledge, you are asking also for power. Are you wanting power?

When Christians have come to me seemingly seek the way you are seeking, I work with them to use what little faith they do have and the little Godly type Love they do have, in helping others. When they get into hard situations helping others, we then go to God in pray for help and it might include fasting and lots of meditation. Seeing God change the lives of others becomes evidence for us all of God’s Love and power. Sincerely praying to have God live and work through yourself helping others, is a way to see God.

God is fair/just so each individual is treated according to the individual’s needs. The experiences of one individual will not be the same as any other individual. Very few people would need a Damascus Road experience like Saul/Paul went through, since very few are like Paul.

It is harder to try and hold onto the believe: “there is not a God”, than it is to believe there is a God, so asking for some miraculous sign to believe should not be needed.

You do good to question the experience people who call themselves “Christians” say they had and say what they did have was miracle, when it could have naturally occurred. Lots of people who say they received a sign from God do not go on to live a Christ like live and “by the fruits we should know them”.

The people during Christ’s time on earth kept asking for signs (more wanting something personal for themselves) and this was upsetting to Christ because He had done signs. If the people asked feeling they personally deserved a sign, Christ would not give it to them. You seem to feel: “I deserve a sign from God”, which meant Christ will not give you a sign.

2) As I stated prior, my belief in His existence, is the beginning, or catalyst. I cannot possibly worship a deity for which I do not even believe exists, can I? That would be illogical. God states that all unbelievers are to spend eternity away from God, right?

“Believe” is the same word for faith. You do not have faith in God’s existence if you know God exists.

Again, worship comes later, it would be very illogical to “worship” a “God” that was allowing you to go to hell. The first step is believing/trusting in a benevolent Creator enough, to accept His pure charity.

3) I find this question irrelevant. It does not matter what type of God I would want. All that matters, is what God, if any, is actually real. I sincerely doubt such a god(s) would cater to my every view, choices, and/or wishes. But since I sought after this particular claimed flavor, in earnest, for decades, only to receive the big goose egg, it is no wonder I gave up the earnest search?

God is the greatest parent a person could have and as such God desires to Personally be with you, His child all the time. You are the rebellious disobedient undeserving child, so why should He give you anything?

4) If I received revelation that such a creator existed, then I would have NO choice but to believe He really existed. I would either then

a) Choose to follow, as He commanded me, if He should happen to also exchange dialogue with me, or...
b) I would have to guess on my own what I think He wants, if He chose not to exchange any usable dialogue with me. Or...
c) I could simply rebel, like satan. But that would seem rather foolish --- knowing what the Bible says about all whom rebel - they burn forever...

You do not have to guess, just do what Christ would do in your shoes. The Bible tells us all about Christ and It tells us what others did when the came to Christ, like Paul.

Is this really your answer? Please....

God is stated to have both the ability to reveal to all, and also will reveal to all. And further still, all will drop to their knees (i.e.).

"every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God."

In the mean time, He chooses to play hide and go seek with many apparently.

And to answer your question in bold...

I sought after Him for decades in earnest. I gave up after 3 decades of honest inquiry. I would like to know if my search was in vain, or if God simply has chosen to pass over me for some reason? The doubt I harbor now, seems rational, after having 3 decades of a seemingly one-way dialogue. God seems to interact with some all the time, while completely ignoring others.

However, your rationale for why God is not contacting me conflicts with the Bible. The Bible states:

"since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."

The above essentially indicates that I'm either in denial, or blocked by sin.

But I also state I logically have concluded option a) from above.... (i.e.) -- "a) seems most logical, since we have countless of people, whom claim to speak to differing god(s), opposed to yours. They cannot ALL be right, but you all can certainly all be mistaken."

When Christians talk to me about growing their faith and Love. Some seem to be thinking about study, signs and pray. My suggestion: Take what you do have and start using it.

Here we are again, at the crux of the topic, and I see you continuing to dance all around the black and white observation

- Does God ever aid in healing, via prayer requests? [yes] or [no]?

Yes

Assuming the answer is [yes], I see a direct problem here. God seems to only aid in a cure, where 'science' or the bodies own defenses also come to aid, like cancer for instance. We have many whom claim God aided in their cure. If these cancer patients are actually correct, looks as though any/all people with missing limbs, people with cerebral palsy, and ones with Down's syndrome, are perpetually passed over by God.

Can you explain?????

Yes, everyone today needs to realize, “God is not going to do anything that would scientifically proof His existence”. To do so, would remove the need of those, who trust science, to have “faith” in His existence, since they would have knowledge of His existence. Knowledge for the nonbeliever can work against them developing the faith they need to humbly accept pure undeserved charity.

 

[bling]

I said no such thing.

I didn't say they did.

Glad. since it cannot be said.

First, that sounds like nonsense. I can imagine enormous benefits to Christianity if God were to work an obvious miracle, and I'm surprised that you can't, given the Bible is full of this kind of thing, as is Christian folk lore over the past two thousand years.
Second, even if it were true, so what? Are you saying it's God's job to watch over society and prevent it from coming to any possible harm? I doubt you are saying that, since God would seem to be doing a very poor job if that was so.
No, any objection that you make to God working miracles runs into the obvious counter-argument that God (allegedly) has a very long history of doing these things. Many Christians claim that He is doing them still today.
And third, if what you say was actually so, then Christians wouldn't be asking God for things at all. After all, who can tell what might be miraculous, or might come to seem miraculous? After all, supposing that Christian prayers are answered, as they believe they are - statistically speaking, we would see an awful lot of Christians recovering from illnesses that members of other or no religion do not. That would be awfully compelling evidence - perhaps it might even qualify as miraculous.
But no - Christians are asking God for things all the time. We've seen plenty of evidence for this. It just leaves the obvious question, why do they only pray for things that might happen anyway?
You've done much better than others in trying to answer this. I think you might be the only person who actually addressed the question! But still, your answers don't explain, as I've shown above.

You always have to keep the initial objective for the nonbeliever as being of the greatest importance.

The Christian mission statement goes something like: “Love God (and secondly others) with all your heart, soul, mind, and energy.” to do that requires this unbelievable huge unselfish, unconditional, all consuming Love. This Love is way beyond being taught, learned, developed, earned, or paid back for having. It only comes as a gift resulting of humbly accepting God’s forgiveness. We are taught by Jesus: “…he who is forgiven much Loves much…” So, if you humbly accept forgiveness of an unbelievable huge debt created by sin, you will automatically receive and unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love). After obtaining the Love through use it grows.

Knowledge does not humble the person and humility is need to accept pure undeserved charity. Faith in a benevolent Creator is a humbling activity, since any mature adult can do that.

Humans have always had plenty of reason to be humble in this universe, but to say it is all a wonderful accident, so do not blame us, is not humiliating. If we contribute this universe to the God, we have disgraced by being rebelliously disobedient towards is frighting humiliating.

Yes, the Bible is “full of outward obvious miracles”, which also shows how the miracles did not help the people to be more like Christ, convert the Jews, win over the unbelievers, and keep the people from crucifying Christ.

“Folk lore” is not scripture.

Everyone today needs to realize, “God is not going to do anything that would scientifically proof His existence”. To do so, would remove the need of those, who trust science, to have “faith” in His existence, since they would have knowledge of His existence. Knowledge for the nonbeliever can work against them developing the faith they need to humbly accept pure undeserved charity. Look at John 6 you have lots of miracles and even 5000+ people fed to being full, yet did they get the message?

This messed up world, we have today, is the very best situation for willing individuals to humble accept God’s pure undeserved charity.

Under your scenario of how the Christian God should work, why would anyone: be hurting, sick, need healing, be hungry, die young or need to die at all?

God is presented as starting humans out in a wonderful Garden situation without, needy people, anyone hurting, no death, no hardship and Him walking with them daily. The problem with this wonderful Garden situation is it is a lousy (impossible) place for humans to fulfill their earthly objective.

God would Love for all of us to start out in a Garden situation, but quenches His owe desires and puts us in the best situation for us to fulfill our objective.

Since I doubt there is any person in the world who would claim to be Christ like, my answer is no.

The word “Christian” was first used by the pagans describing “Christ like People”, it was never meant to be a title, but a descriptive term. I am not talking about being a clone of Christ, but someone trying to be like Christ, led by the Spirit, selfless, unconditional Loving, sacrificially serving others, and mentoring others.

 

[cvanwey]

In your 30 years seeking God, do you feel God was asking you to do some huge job here on earth, which you could ask for a huge sign, since it seems all He is asking of you is to humble accept His undeserved charitable gifts.

What you are telling me is either you did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit or you were quenching the Spirit.

The more likely is you never had the Spirit; you never experienced a shower of God’s gifts.

Did you fast and pray for a week?

When did you experience full immersion with water, believer baptism?

You seem to be asking for personal knowledge of God’s existence for your personal benefit, deserving an answer. There is a huge problem with that. Anytime you ask God for something you think you deserve; God will not give it to you. You can certainly ask God for help, but please understand if He provides help to you it is not because you deserve it, because when given, it is pure undeserved charity.

We know: “knowledge is power”, so when you are asking for knowledge, you are asking also for power. Are you wanting power?

When Christians have come to me seemingly seek the way you are seeking, I work with them to use what little faith they do have and the little Godly type Love they do have, in helping others. When they get into hard situations helping others, we then go to God in pray for help and it might include fasting and lots of meditation. Seeing God change the lives of others becomes evidence for us all of God’s Love and power. Sincerely praying to have God live and work through yourself helping others, is a way to see God.

God is fair/just so each individual is treated according to the individual’s needs. The experiences of one individual will not be the same as any other individual. Very few people would need a Damascus Road experience like Saul/Paul went through, since very few are like Paul.

It is harder to try and hold onto the believe: “there is not a God”, than it is to believe there is a God, so asking for some miraculous sign to believe should not be needed.

You do good to question the experience people who call themselves “Christians” say they had and say what they did have was miracle, when it could have naturally occurred. Lots of people who say they received a sign from God do not go on to live a Christ like live and “by the fruits we should know them”.

The people during Christ’s time on earth kept asking for signs (more wanting something personal for themselves) and this was upsetting to Christ because He had done signs. If the people asked feeling they personally deserved a sign, Christ would not give it to them. You seem to feel: “I deserve a sign from God”, which meant Christ will not give you a sign.

You have absolutely no idea what such a God would think. You are pulling these rationalizations straight from your hoo-ha. I made every effort, and every attempt for 3 decades. You name it, I probably did it.... God seems to contact many. He skipped me. Thus far, option a) looks most likely. WHY? ..... Because we have many whom earnestly claim they receive contact from an opposing God to yours. You guys likely cannot both be right, but you could both certainly be wrong.

“Believe” is the same word for faith. You do not have faith in God’s existence if you know God exists.

Again, worship comes later, it would be very illogical to “worship” a “God” that was allowing you to go to hell. The first step is believing/trusting in a benevolent Creator enough, to accept His pure charity.

'Faith', 'belief', 'trust'... You can use whatever 'placeholder' word you so choose. Again, you cannot worship or repent to a deity for which you do not believe, have faith, or trust even exists, can you? That would be illogical, wouldn't it?

God is the greatest parent a person could have and as such God desires to Personally be with you, His child all the time. You are the rebellious disobedient undeserving child, so why should He give you anything?

I doubt the definition of the 'greatest parent' would be to perpetually completely ignore earnest requests for 3 decades?

You do not have to guess, just do what Christ would do in your shoes. The Bible tells us all about Christ and It tells us what others did when the came to Christ, like Paul.

Do like Christ? Christ was deemed perfect. Thus would be impossible. Hence, the reason I must believe he exists postmortem. But I don't, hence the conundrum.

When Christians talk to me about growing their faith and Love. Some seem to be thinking about study, signs and pray. My suggestion: Take what you do have and start using it.

I'm going with the same answer here, as prior, since you really did not address anything within it....:

Is this really your answer? Please....

God is stated to have both the ability to reveal to all, and also will reveal to all. And further still, all will drop to their knees (i.e.).

"every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God."

In the mean time, He chooses to play hide and go seek with many apparently.

I sought after Him for decades in earnest. I gave up after 3 decades of honest inquiry. I would like to know if my search was in vain, or if God simply has chosen to pass over me for some reason? The doubt I harbor now, seems rational, after having 3 decades of a seemingly one-way dialogue. God seems to interact with some all the time, while completely ignoring others.

However, your rationale for why God is not contacting me conflicts with the Bible. The Bible states:

"since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."

The above essentially indicates that I'm either in denial, or blocked by sin.

But I also state I logically have concluded option a) from above.... (i.e.) -- "a) seems most logical, since we have countless of people, whom claim to speak to differing god(s), opposed to yours. They cannot ALL be right, but you all can certainly all be mistaken."

Yes

Then he chooses to always ignore the requests to heal amputees, cerebral palsy, and Downs syndrome. But chooses to heal people where science, or the bodies own defenses, may work to heal, without prayer.

Yes, everyone today needs to realize, “God is not going to do anything that would scientifically proof His existence”. To do so, would remove the need of those, who trust science, to have “faith” in His existence, since they would have knowledge of His existence. Knowledge for the nonbeliever can work against them developing the faith they need to humbly accept pure undeserved charity.

False... God has no problem revealing... Cough cough... Sal of Tarsus, Doubting Thomas, the woman or women from the empty tomb, the '500', and/or "every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God."

As well as Matthew 7:7, Matthew 21:22, Mark 11:24, John 14:13-14, John 16:23

You are again pulling answers out of your hoo-ha Knowledge of His mere existence does not necessary ruin anything. Nor, does God state He won't, when asked in earnest.

 

[bling]

You have absolutely no idea what such a God would think. You are pulling these rationalizations straight from your hoo-ha. I made every effort, and every attempt for 3 decades. You name it, I probably did it.... God seems to contact many. He skipped me. Thus far, option a) looks most likely. WHY? ..... Because we have many whom earnestly claim they receive contact from an opposing God to yours. You guys likely cannot both be right, but you could both certainly be wrong.



'Faith', 'belief', 'trust'... You can use whatever 'placeholder' word you so choose. Again, you cannot worship or repent to a deity for which you do not believe, have faith, or trust even exists, can you? That would be illogical, wouldn't it?



I doubt the definition of the 'greatest parent' would be to perpetually completely ignore earnest requests for 3 decades?



Do like Christ? Christ was deemed perfect. Thus would be impossible. Hence, the reason I must believe he exists postmortem. But I don't, hence the conundrum.



I'm going with the same answer here, as prior, since you really did not address anything within it....:

Is this really your answer? Please....

God is stated to have both the ability to reveal to all, and also will reveal to all. And further still, all will drop to their knees (i.e.).

"every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God."

In the mean time, He chooses to play hide and go seek with many apparently.

I sought after Him for decades in earnest. I gave up after 3 decades of honest inquiry. I would like to know if my search was in vain, or if God simply has chosen to pass over me for some reason? The doubt I harbor now, seems rational, after having 3 decades of a seemingly one-way dialogue. God seems to interact with some all the time, while completely ignoring others.

However, your rationale for why God is not contacting me conflicts with the Bible. The Bible states:

"since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."

The above essentially indicates that I'm either in denial, or blocked by sin.

But I also state I logically have concluded option a) from above.... (i.e.) -- "a) seems most logical, since we have countless of people, whom claim to speak to differing god(s), opposed to yours. They cannot ALL be right, but you all can certainly all be mistaken."



Then he chooses to always ignore the requests to heal amputees, cerebral palsy, and Downs syndrome. But chooses to heal people where science, or the bodies own defenses, may work to heal, without prayer.



False... God has no problem revealing... Cough cough... Sal of Tarsus, Doubting Thomas, the woman or women from the empty tomb, the '500', and/or "every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God."

As well as Matthew 7:7, Matthew 21:22, Mark 11:24, John 14:13-14, John 16:23

You are again pulling answers out of your hoo-ha Knowledge of His mere existence does not necessary ruin anything. Nor, does God state He won't, when asked in earnest.

You are very right to say: “We cannot both be right”. I have lots of problems with what especially main stream churches teach.

You keep talking about your 30 years as a Christian asking for a sign from God.

I realize: now, you do not believe you ever had the indwelling Holy Spirit, but did you believe, any time during those 30 years, you did have the indwelling Holy Spirit?

As a Christian your guarantee, that God will keep His promises, is suppose to be, only needs to be and was only promised to be, the indwelling Holy Spirit. So, what made you feel you had the Spirit or did you never feel Him?

God never promised to give you or me outward signs to believe, but did promise the indwelling Holy Spirit. Yes, some Christians had outward signs, especially early on, but that was mostly for others who really needed outward signs and not for Christians today who have the powerful indwelling Holy Spirit.

The best way I have found to really see the Spirit working in and through me is doing challenging wonderful stuff helping others.

I do not know everything about God, but from scripture and watching God’s Spirit working through people today, I do know some of God’s thinking.

 

[cvanwey]

You are very right to say: “We cannot both be right”. I have lots of problems with what especially main stream churches teach.

How about what the Bible teaches? What DOES the Bible teach about prayer? You mean to tell years of earnest heart-felt inquiry will be ignored by God? That's not what Scripture suggests. Demonstrate or show me where my interpretation is mistaken? Otherwise, I will be forced to lump you in, right along all the others whom make up their own brand of 'faith', without sufficient warrant or cause. Blank assertions will get you nowhere.

You keep talking about your 30 years as a Christian asking for a sign from God.

I realize: now, you do not believe you ever had the indwelling Holy Spirit, but did you believe, any time during those 30 years, you did have the indwelling Holy Spirit?

I was a proclaimed Christian for decades. I was patiently awaiting the call from the Holy Spirit. I never received anything forthcoming. I heard countless anecdotal testimonials from others. Heck, I can even watch videos today of many being 'contacted' by Jesus:

Please look at post #1 of this thread:

God's Revelation is Real and Proven!

As a Christian your guarantee, that God will keep His promises, is suppose to be, only needs to be and was only promised to be, the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Why should I believe what the Bible says, as opposed to any other opposing book of assertions and claims?

So, what made you feel you had the Spirit or did you never feel Him?

Sometimes I would get goose bumps, while praying. But looking back now, I also get goose bumps watching fictional movies. I need more tangible evidence to determine I'm receiving any contact from anything other than my own thoughts and emotions.

God never promised to give you or me outward signs to believe, but did promise the indwelling Holy Spirit.

This is incorrect. God says He will give you virtually anything, if asked from a sincere heart. You have conspicuously dismissed the many Verses I offered in my prior response. You mean to tell me contact, when prayed for, is too much to ask???? And all this while reading that He intends to contact EVERYONE in a way they can no longer deny anyways, whether they like it or not?

Yes, some Christians had outward signs, especially early on, but that was mostly for others who really needed outward signs and not for Christians today who have the powerful indwelling Holy Spirit.

I'm calling nonsense here! You need to back up your claims. I have, you have not. I gave you Chapter and Verse to demonstrate that God answers the call to prayer. God also wants His presence known. Also, knowledge of His existence really ruins nothing. You still have a choice.

Please look at your response from my perspective. Just imagine if you were conversing with someone of an opposing religion and they started giving you [your] 'reasons'

The best way I have found to really see the Spirit working in and through me is doing challenging wonderful stuff helping others.

Helping others can certainly make one feel good. But anything more than that, you will need to demonstrate how that validates truth to the assertion of Christianity?

I do not know everything about God, but from scripture and watching God’s Spirit working through people today, I do know some of God’s thinking.

Then you can explain why He always skips the petitionary and intercessory prayer requests to 'cure' amputees, cerebral palsy, and Downs syndrome.

I assert it is quite possible, as the OP suggests, that prayer is worthless, when it comes to 'healing.' It's safe to say that any/all wanted healing, would work just as well, had prayer never entered the equation.

I'll give you a simple example...

Say you are diagnosed with stage 2 cancer. The doctor informs you your chances of survival are high, as long as you seek proper medical treatment. Say you are given an either/or proposition.

a. medical tx

Or...

b. prayer alone

....But you cannot do both. Which will the Christian likely choose?

 

[bling]

How about what the Bible teaches? What DOES the Bible teach about prayer? You mean to tell years of earnest heart-felt inquiry will be ignored by God? That's not what Scripture suggests. Demonstrate or show me where my interpretation is mistaken? Otherwise, I will be forced to lump you in, right along all the others whom make up their own brand of 'faith', without sufficient warrant or cause. Blank assertions will get you nowhere.



I was a proclaimed Christian for decades. I was patiently awaiting the call from the Holy Spirit. I never received anything forthcoming. I heard countless anecdotal testimonials from others. Heck, I can even watch videos today of many being 'contacted' by Jesus:

Please look at post #1 of this thread:

God's Revelation is Real and Proven!



Why should I believe what the Bible says, as opposed to any other opposing book of assertions and claims?



Sometimes I would get goose bumps, while praying. But looking back now, I also get goose bumps watching fictional movies. I need more tangible evidence to determine I'm receiving any contact from anything other than my own thoughts and emotions.



This is incorrect. God says He will give you virtually anything, if asked from a sincere heart. You have conspicuously dismissed the many Verses I offered in my prior response. You mean to tell me contact, when prayed for, is too much to ask???? And all this while reading that He intends to contact EVERYONE in a way they can no longer deny anyways, whether they like it or not?



I'm calling nonsense here! You need to back up your claims. I have, you have not. I gave you Chapter and Verse to demonstrate that God answers the call to prayer. God also wants His presence known. Also, knowledge of His existence really ruins nothing. You still have a choice.

Please look at your response from my perspective. Just imagine if you were conversing with someone of an opposing religion and they started giving you [your] 'reasons'



Helping others can certainly make one feel good. But anything more than that, you will need to demonstrate how that validates truth to the assertion of Christianity?



Then you can explain why He always skips the petitionary and intercessory prayer requests to 'cure' amputees, cerebral palsy, and Downs syndrome.

I assert it is quite possible, as the OP suggests, that prayer is worthless, when it comes to 'healing.' It's safe to say that any/all wanted healing, would work just as well, had prayer never entered the equation.

I'll give you a simple example...

Say you are diagnosed with stage 2 cancer. The doctor informs you your chances of survival are high, as long as you seek proper medical treatment. Say you are given an either/or proposition.

a. medical tx

Or...

b. prayer alone

....But you cannot do both. Which will the Christian likely choose?

The indwelling Holy Spirit is the Christian’s guarantee and not miracles.

A Christian with the help of the indwelling Holy Spirit can sincerely, fervently, pray for any Kingdom helping result and it will be granted, but again praying for a scientific verifiable miracle would not help the individual’s growth and the growth in numbers of the Kingdom. We are to: Matt. 6: 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given, to you as well. I cannot pray and would not pray for you to receive God’s undeserved unconditional unselfish charity, without you humbly deciding of your own free will to accept that pure charity as charity. I nor God is going to take away your free will opportunity to make the easiest free will choice you can make (accepting God’s help as charity).

Do not believe everything you see on YouTube and I agree goosebumps is not the indwelling Holy Spirit.

There are billions of people worshipping gods, which have not done any miracles. There are millions of people calling themselves Christians who have not seen any miracles and of those who have seen miracles none of the miracles have been scientifically proven.

Acknowledging the existence of the Christian God is not the same as having faith in a benevolent Creator. Knowledge is not faith and does not produce faith, since the desire for knowledge is also the desire for power (knowledge is power) and knowledge tends to puff the person up with pride of having knowledge over others.

Faith in a benevolent Creator is something the lowliest mature adult on earth can do any time, so it is a humbling activity and humility is what is needed to humbly accept pure charity as charity.

What “call” are you talking about, since the invitation to the banquet has gone out to everyone?

I feel there was no Christian more righteous then Paul yet: 2 Cor. 12:7… Therefore, in order to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore, I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me.

And 1Cor. 13:10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.

The “part” includes outward obvious miraculous powers. But this verse takes getting into the Greek to fully understand.

We have lots of examples in scripture of people and even large groups of people having huge obvious God provided miracles shown to them, like the Jews who left Egypt, but what we see from their reaction it does not produce faith (only two entered the Promise Land).

I do see today a very strong faith developed in Chinese Christians in Communist China under severe persecution, impoverish, with only the Bible to guide them and they have no outward, obvious, scientifically verifiable miracles.

What makes you think you deserve a scientifically provable miracle? (Do not tell me, others are seeing it, because there is nothing in a scientific publication about that. And do not tell me about signs found throughout scripture, since they have passed away (1 Cor. 13:10) and there is no scientific evidence for them.)


Your hypothetical question about pray and medicine is not possible since nothing can stand in the way of a person going to God. We pray that the medicine will work for us, but if it does not and we die what is the problem?

If you asked: “Would a Christian take the last medicine available or give the medicine to another, praying for the life of both”, that might be a likely scenario?

It appears that I and other Christians out there, do not pray for outward, obvious, scientifically provable miracles, because it takes away the very best opportunity for the nonbeliever to extend the very easiest degree of faith, which can produce humility.

Does it takes humility to worship a God, who made you His very good creation, just look at children of a very powerful, intelligent and rich father, does his children worship him and why?

 

[cvanwey]

The indwelling Holy Spirit is the Christian’s guarantee and not miracles.

A Christian with the help of the indwelling Holy Spirit can sincerely, fervently, pray for any Kingdom helping result and it will be granted, but again praying for a scientific verifiable miracle would not help the individual’s growth and the growth in numbers of the Kingdom. We are to: Matt. 6: 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given, to you as well. I cannot pray and would not pray for you to receive God’s undeserved unconditional unselfish charity, without you humbly deciding of your own free will to accept that pure charity as charity. I nor God is going to take away your free will opportunity to make the easiest free will choice you can make (accepting God’s help as charity).

Do not believe everything you see on YouTube and I agree goosebumps is not the indwelling Holy Spirit.

There are billions of people worshipping gods, which have not done any miracles. There are millions of people calling themselves Christians who have not seen any miracles and of those who have seen miracles none of the miracles have been scientifically proven.

Acknowledging the existence of the Christian God is not the same as having faith in a benevolent Creator. Knowledge is not faith and does not produce faith, since the desire for knowledge is also the desire for power (knowledge is power) and knowledge tends to puff the person up with pride of having knowledge over others.

Faith in a benevolent Creator is something the lowliest mature adult on earth can do any time, so it is a humbling activity and humility is what is needed to humbly accept pure charity as charity.

What “call” are you talking about, since the invitation to the banquet has gone out to everyone?

I feel there was no Christian more righteous then Paul yet: 2 Cor. 12:7… Therefore, in order to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore, I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me.

And 1Cor. 13:10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.

The “part” includes outward obvious miraculous powers. But this verse takes getting into the Greek to fully understand.

We have lots of examples in scripture of people and even large groups of people having huge obvious God provided miracles shown to them, like the Jews who left Egypt, but what we see from their reaction it does not produce faith (only two entered the Promise Land).

I do see today a very strong faith developed in Chinese Christians in Communist China under severe persecution, impoverish, with only the Bible to guide them and they have no outward, obvious, scientifically verifiable miracles.

What makes you think you deserve a scientifically provable miracle? (Do not tell me, others are seeing it, because there is nothing in a scientific publication about that. And do not tell me about signs found throughout scripture, since they have passed away (1 Cor. 13:10) and there is no scientific evidence for them.)


Your hypothetical question about pray and medicine is not possible since nothing can stand in the way of a person going to God. We pray that the medicine will work for us, but if it does not and we die what is the problem?

If you asked: “Would a Christian take the last medicine available or give the medicine to another, praying for the life of both”, that might be a likely scenario?

It appears that I and other Christians out there, do not pray for outward, obvious, scientifically provable miracles, because it takes away the very best opportunity for the nonbeliever to extend the very easiest degree of faith, which can produce humility.

Does it takes humility to worship a God, who made you His very good creation, just look at children of a very powerful, intelligent and rich father, does his children worship him and why?

I'm tired of repeating myself. I mentioned many Verses, which look to indicate God answers the call to answered prayer, even healing. You continue to avoid them. This is very telling for me.

My observation is simple.....

If petitionary and intercessory prayers to heal ever work, then you would , once in a while, also see reversal in amputees, cerebral palsy, and Downs syndrome. But you don't.

The fact that we do not, means it's highly likely all claims to answered prayers, in healing, which is millions BTW, likely all involve alternative means to their cures, and not prayer --- (i.e.) modern medicine, the bodies own defenses, other...

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Glad. since it cannot be said.



You always have to keep the initial objective for the nonbeliever as being of the greatest importance.

The Christian mission statement goes something like: “Love God (and secondly others) with all your heart, soul, mind, and energy.” to do that requires this unbelievable huge unselfish, unconditional, all consuming Love. This Love is way beyond being taught, learned, developed, earned, or paid back for having. It only comes as a gift resulting of humbly accepting God’s forgiveness. We are taught by Jesus: “…he who is forgiven much Loves much…” So, if you humbly accept forgiveness of an unbelievable huge debt created by sin, you will automatically receive and unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love). After obtaining the Love through use it grows.

Knowledge does not humble the person and humility is need to accept pure undeserved charity. Faith in a benevolent Creator is a humbling activity, since any mature adult can do that.

Humans have always had plenty of reason to be humble in this universe, but to say it is all a wonderful accident, so do not blame us, is not humiliating. If we contribute this universe to the God, we have disgraced by being rebelliously disobedient towards is frighting humiliating.

Yes, the Bible is “full of outward obvious miracles”, which also shows how the miracles did not help the people to be more like Christ, convert the Jews, win over the unbelievers, and keep the people from crucifying Christ.

“Folk lore” is not scripture.

Everyone today needs to realize, “God is not going to do anything that would scientifically proof His existence”. To do so, would remove the need of those, who trust science, to have “faith” in His existence, since they would have knowledge of His existence. Knowledge for the nonbeliever can work against them developing the faith they need to humbly accept pure undeserved charity. Look at John 6 you have lots of miracles and even 5000+ people fed to being full, yet did they get the message?

This messed up world, we have today, is the very best situation for willing individuals to humble accept God’s pure undeserved charity.

Under your scenario of how the Christian God should work, why would anyone: be hurting, sick, need healing, be hungry, die young or need to die at all?

God is presented as starting humans out in a wonderful Garden situation without, needy people, anyone hurting, no death, no hardship and Him walking with them daily. The problem with this wonderful Garden situation is it is a lousy (impossible) place for humans to fulfill their earthly objective.

God would Love for all of us to start out in a Garden situation, but quenches His owe desires and puts us in the best situation for us to fulfill our objective.

The word “Christian” was first used by the pagans describing “Christ like People”, it was never meant to be a title, but a descriptive term. I am not talking about being a clone of Christ, but someone trying to be like Christ, led by the Spirit, selfless, unconditional Loving, sacrificially serving others, and mentoring others.

It seems like you're just missing the point and moving on to another argument entirely. I think we're done here. Thank you for your time.

 

[bling]

I'm tired of repeating myself. I mentioned many Verses, which look to indicate God answers the call to answered prayer, even healing. You continue to avoid them. This is very telling for me.

My observation is simple.....

If petitionary and intercessory prayers to heal ever work, then you would , once in a while, also see reversal in amputees, cerebral palsy, and Downs syndrome. But you don't.

The fact that we do not, means it's highly likely all claims to answered prayers, in healing, which is millions BTW, likely all involve alternative means to their cures, and not prayer --- (i.e.) modern medicine, the bodies own defenses, other...

There is a huge problem with just quoting promises in scripture and saying it applies, CONTEXT:

You are using good logic, but you cannot compare apples to oranges.

Many promises are given to the people being addressed at the time, which with Jesus can be just the apostles.

Jesus talking about what Christians will do after Him, but this does not mean all Christians or all the time.

Comparing what was needed prior to the destruction of Jerusalem and what is needed today is two very different scenarios.

God made a ton of promises to the Jewish people which were all completed with Christ, but it will still take a lot to convince the Jews to accept Christianity and also give up their Jewish heritage. Thus, the need for lots of outward obvious miracles, famines, persecutions and finally the destruction of Jerusalem.

There is also the huge issue today of people being very scientific about everything and a reliance on science. This squelches the power of God to do any scientifically provable miracle, since it takes away the need to have faith in God’s existence.

 

[cvanwey]

There is a huge problem with just quoting promises in scripture and saying it applies, CONTEXT

You are using good logic, but you cannot compare apples to oranges

I am using 'context.' If it is TRUE that God answers the call to prayer in healing, then you would virtually see the same ratio of healing for the common cold, as you do with cancer, amputees, Downs, acne, diabetes, cerebral palsy, and so on.... My logic is this...

IF God intervenes in the petitionary and intercessory requests to heal, then you would see the same amount of intervening, where it comes to amputees, cerebral palsy, and Downs, as you ALSO see with the claims to God's direct intervention for illnesses and conditions which are claimed to have had God's hand in the matter.

It's a simple observation, which exposes the conclusion that either:

a. God excludes any/all requests to cure the conditions in which humans cannot also 'fix' themselves, without prayer.
b. God does not answer the call to ANY healing, but answers prayer in other ways. Which means millions of claims to God's healing are simply mistaken, because God does not actually answer prayers to heal anything.
c. God exists, but does not intervene/interact at all, which then still renders prayer worthless; as we are essentially talking to a wall.
d. God is imaginary.

I see no other options... Please tell me which one appears most reasonable, while also applying the logic of Occam's razor...

Comparing what was needed prior to the destruction of Jerusalem and what is needed today is two very different scenarios.

Is prayer useful in requests for healing, or not? If no, then game over.

If yes, then the game is still over - for the ones whom pray for the cure of diseases and conditions for which we cannot cure ourselves.

God made a ton of promises to the Jewish people which were all completed with Christ, but it will still take a lot to convince the Jews to accept Christianity and also give up their Jewish heritage. Thus, the need for lots of outward obvious miracles, famines, persecutions and finally the destruction of Jerusalem.

You mean like promising to come back some day? How much more does God need to be a witness to before He does so? And more logically, if everyone is going to drop to their knees and bow to Him anyways, why wait at all? In the end, we all look to Him anyways apparently.

There is also the huge issue today of people being very scientific about everything and a reliance on science. This squelches the power of God to do any scientifically provable miracle, since it takes away the need to have faith in God’s existence.

I thought God can do anything, and will do anything when He wishes. I doubt 'science' is 'squelching' anything, where God's concerned. Many people did not believe, even before the scientific revolution. A matter of fact, 'science' would be a great method or way to demonstrate the power of prayer.

And again, why must we have 'faith' in God's existence? Why is belief, without sufficient evidence, or credulity, deemed as noble or more warranted by God?