Temporal Salvation?

FreeGrace2 said:

So, the aorist tense means pretty much nothing to you then.

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We've been over this before, FG, and your forced interpretation of the aorist is not correct, and the ingressive aorist explains the completed action perfectly while not denying the on going action inherent in "believing". Wallace, Mounce, GDL and JLB, and even WordSword have all shown the fallacy of your argument. The aorist tense means precisely what I've said time and time again, and your only response was a " What's with all the completed action? " Which demonstrates your utter lack of understanding of both the aorist and perfect tenses in Greek grammar.

As a final note, in the entire parable of the Sower (or Seed, depending on your preference) in Luke 18, all the seed that didn't produce fruit were considered worthless to the Sower. This is demonstrated time and again in the other farmer/gardener type parables. Fruitfulness is accepted; unfruitfulness is rejected, cut off, discarded and burned.

It is my contention that the logical direction of the seed on rocky soil and in the weedy soil is unfruitfulness and ultimate death of those plants. There is zero reason for assuming anything positive for any of the first three soil types illustrated by Jesus in the parable.

FreeGrace2 said:

Jack Nickelson once said, "you don't know the truth!!"

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Actually, he said " You can't handle the truth!" and he appears to have been talking about not only Tom Cruise, but you as well!

Doug

I said:
"So, the aorist tense means pretty much nothing to you then."

TibiasDad said:

We've been over this before, FG, and your forced interpretation of the aorist is not correct

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You've never shown that. So, now is your chance. Prove that I'm "forcing" an interpretation of the aorist.

and the ingressive aorist explains the completed action perfectly while not denying the on going action inherent in "believing".

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Since you ADMIT that it is a "completed action perfectly", that's the POINT. Saving faith is the MOMENT a person places their faith in Christ for salvation. And from that MOMENT, they are saved, sealed, justified, regenerated, become a child of God, and possess eternal life, which means they shall never perish. But you have shown that you do not believe what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life.

And, you have NEVER provided any Scripture that clearly UN-does:
1. salvation
2. sealing
3. justification
4. regeneration
5. UN-borns the child of God
6. removes eternal life

So you are without any support from Scripture for your opinions.

Wallace, Mounce, GDL and JLB, and even WordSword have all shown the fallacy of your argument.

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None of you have. All you do is throw claims around, but none of you guys have provided ANY evidence to support your own opinions.

The aorist tense means precisely what I've said time and time again, and your only response was a " What's with all the completed action? " Which demonstrates your utter lack of understanding of both the aorist and perfect tenses in Greek grammar.

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The aorist tense proves that salvation occurs in a point in time, that's what. And you haven't proven otherwise.

As a final note, in the entire parable of the Sower (or Seed, depending on your preference) in Luke 18, all the seed that didn't produce fruit were considered worthless to the Sower.

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First error: it's Luke 15. Second error: there is nothing about what is "considered worthless" to the Sower. But you like to make up stuff.

Once again, you need to PROVE that these 6 things can be UN-done in order to defend your opinions.

1. salvation
2. sealing
3. justification
4. regeneration
5. UN-borns the child of God
6. removes eternal life

You'll need a LOT of luck, because the truth is not on your side.

And you may want to consider a refund on all that classroom teaching you paid for in Greek class.

FreeGrace2 said:

I said:
"Why don't you tell that to Jesus, who said in the clearest of words that recipients of eternal life shall never perish."

Where did your "if" come from? It's not in v.27 or v.28. So quit making up stuff.

Whatza matter. Did you tell Jesus, and just don't like His answer?

Again, there is no "if" in either verse. So quit making up stuff.

You're just making up stuff again. There is NO CONDITION stated. The verses are very plainly stated, and there is NO CONDITION stated.


There is NO CONDITION STATED.


OK, now you're on track. So, where is the "IF IF IF" in either v.27 or v.28?


What a ridiculous question! The very FACT that Jesus describes recipients of eternal life as His own sheep, proves that they are ALREADY saved. Salvation and eternal life are obstained the MOMENT a person believes in Him for it.


Jack Nickelson once said, "you don't know the truth!!"

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And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9



If we obey His voice that results in following Hm, at the end of a life of faith we will inherit eternal life.


And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. Matthew 19:29




JLB

FreeGrace2 said:

Since you ADMIT that it is a "completed action perfectly", that's the POINT

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I didn't say "its a completed action perfectly", I said "the ingressive aorist explains the completed action perfectly while not denying the on going action inherent in "believing"."

If you can't seem to read English, I see no need to discuss Greek!

Good bye,

Doug

FreeGrace2 said:

Once again, you need to PROVE that these 6 things can be UN-done in order to defend your opinions.

1. salvation
2. sealing
3. justification
4. regeneration
5. UN-borns the child of God
6. removes eternal life

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You don't even realize that one of these incorporates all the others, namely, the first one, salvation! And despite your objections, Heb 6:4-6 and 10:26-31 unequivocally states that ones salvation can be lost, that we can lose the sacrifice for sin, that repentance can be unrenewed, that we can fall into the hands of an angry God and have "only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."

That you refuse to see this demonstrates your blindness to the truth of the gospel. I said it once before, and now, sadly and regretfully, say again, that you have a different gospel than that of scripture. I can only leave you with the words of John in his first Epistle chapter 3:7Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. 9No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. 10This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.

Doug

Re: John 10:27,28, I said:
"Why don't you tell that to Jesus, who said in the clearest of words that recipients of eternal life shall never perish."

Where did your "if" come from? It's not in v.27 or v.28. So quit making up stuff.

Again, there is no "if" in either verse. So quit making up stuff.

You're just making up stuff again. There is NO CONDITION stated. The verses are very plainly stated, and there is NO CONDITION stated.

There is NO CONDITION STATED.

OK, now you're on track. So, where is the "IF IF IF" in either v.27 or v.28?

JLB777 said:

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9

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I didn't ask about this verse. Where is the IF IF IF conditional clause in John 10:27,28?

btw, there isn't even an IF conditional clause in Heb 5:9 either.

If we obey His voice that results in following Hm, at the end of a life of faith we will inherit eternal life.

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No, salvation is a present possession for believers. And once a person believes, that means at that MOMENT, the believer possesses eternal life, and they shall never perish.

And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. Matthew 19:29
JLB

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Go ahead and place your faith in your own efforts. You'll see how far that gets you.

TibiasDad said:

I didn't say "its a completed action perfectly", I said "the ingressive aorist explains the completed action perfectly while not denying the on going action inherent in "believing"."

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You seem to keep missing (ignoring?) the fact that I've never said saving faith only lasts a moment, which seems to be your erroneous opinion.

Believing in Christ for salvation OBVIOUSLY is a continuous action, just like anything and everything else you believe. Until you no longer believe it.

But you keep missing (ignoring?) the point that salvation and possession of eternal life occurs THE MOMENT a person believes in Christ for salvation.

If you can't seem to read English, I see no need to discuss Greek!

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I read English very well, thank you. Even better than you, since you seem to think there's a conditional clause in John 10:27.

btw, can you explain what Isaiah meant in Isa 51-
6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, look at the earth beneath; the heavens will vanish like smoke, the earth will wear out like a garment and its inhabitants die like flies. But my salvation will last forever, my righteousness will never fail.

8 For the moth will eat them up like a garment; the worm will devour them like wool.
But my righteousness will last forever, my salvation through all generations.”

I said:
"Once again, you need to PROVE that these 6 things can be UN-done in order to defend your opinions.

1. salvation
2. sealing
3. justification
4. regeneration
5. UN-borns the child of God
6. removes eternal life"

TibiasDad said:

You don't even realize that one of these incorporates all the others, namely, the first one, salvation!

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Of course they do. But each one of these things occur the MOMENT one believes.

And despite your objections, Heb 6:4-6 and 10:26-31 unequivocally states that ones salvation can be lost

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So, it's "unequivocally", huh? Really? In fact, neither passage even mentions salvation at all. So much for your presumptions.

But, your theology is chock full of presumption. I've repeatedly asked for even one vese that plainly teaches that salvation can be lost, and all you've got is your presumptions about what you ASSUME verses mean.

that we can lose the sacrifice for sin

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Actually, in ch 10, scroll back up to v.18, which explains what "no more sacrifice for sin" means.

"And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary."

The context in ch 10 is Christ's "once for all" sacrifice for sin. And on the basis of His forgiveness, the Mosaic sacrifices are NO LONGER NECESSARY.

So, what does v.26 mean? It means that willful sin results in God's painful discipline.

that repentance can be unrenewed

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You're going to have to explain to me how this relates in any way to loss of salvation.

The author was telling his audience that those Hebrews who had or were going back to animal sacrifices cannot be renewed to a change of mind. Nothing about losing salvation.

that we can fall into the hands of an angry God and have "only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."

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That's right, Doug. This is God's PAINFUL discipline, btw.

That you refuse to see this demonstrates your blindness to the truth of the gospel.

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I just explained what these phrases mean. It's YOU who are blind to the truth.

I said it once before, and now, sadly and regretfully, say again, that you have a different gospel than that of scripture.

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Your theology is so FULL of presumption that you can't even read straight. You think the passages you just cited clearly state that salvtion an be lost, yet NEITHER of them even mentions salvation. Hardly clear.

I can only leave you with the words of John in his first Epistle chapter 3:7Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous.

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All your posts lead others who believe you are being led astray.

I've given you clear verses about the FACT that salvation cannot be lost, taken away, revoked, etc. And you refuse to believe the truth.

John 10:28 and Isa 51:6 are clear verses that teach eternal security.

Another thing: IF IF IF John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12 said condemnation is for those who "ARE NOT believing", rather than "HAVE NOT believed", you would have a point.

But, the verses are clear; condemnation is for those who HAVE NOT believed.

Not, for those who ARE NOT believing.

Big difference.

FreeGrace2 said:

So, it's "unequivocally", huh? Really? In fact, neither passage even mentions salvation at all. So much for your presumptions.

But, your theology is chock full of presumption. I've repeatedly asked for even one vese that plainly teaches that salvation can be lost, and all you've got is your presumptions about what you ASSUME verses mean.

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As with all weak arguments, you assume that the absence of a particular word means the concept of the word, in this case, salvation, isn’t being discussed. This is an exercise that demonstrates your blindness to both the reading of the text, and reasoned thought.

The words “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age” Hebrews‬ ‭6:4-5 Is talking about being saved!

Likewise with Heb 10, “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.”‭‭ Hebrews‬ ‭10:26-27‬ ‭

“After we have received the knowledge of truth” is talking about salvation! Moreover, “judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God” is not “painful discipline” of children, for children are not “enemies of God”!

I truly fear for you,

Doug

TibiasDad said:

As with all weak arguments, you assume that the absence of a particular word means the concept of the word, in this case, salvation, isn’t being discussed.

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Rather, the truth is that you have to PRESUME salvation is being discussed. That's all you have; your PRESUMPTIONS.

I've given clear verses on eternal security. John 10:28 says recipients of eternal life shall never perish; Jn 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12 say that it is those who "have not believed", rather than "are not believing" that will be condemned, and Isa 51:6 which says that salvation is FOREVER.

There ARE clearly and plainly stated verses about eternal security, and you don't have ANY verses that clearly and plainly state that salvation can be lost.

There's no reason at all to accept your baseless theology.

This is an exercise that demonstrates your blindness to both the reading of the text, and reasoned thought.

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Once again, I reject your PRESUMPTIONS and I accept the clear and plain wording of Scripture that teaches eternal security.

The words “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age” Hebrews‬ ‭6:4-5 Is talking about being saved!

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No, it's describing saved people. But what it doesn't say anywhere in the context is that salvation can be lost. That idea comes straight from your own PRESUMPTIONS.

Likewise with Heb 10, “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.”‭‭ Hebrews‬ ‭10:26-27‬ ‭

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Didn't you read my post where I pointed out what v.18 says? And explains what v.26 means??

“After we have received the knowledge of truth” is talking about salvation! Moreover, “judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God” is not “painful discipline” of children, for children are not “enemies of God”!

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If you don't think a parent's children can become their enemy, you are truly beyond naive.

1 Tim 1:9 - We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers,

Sure sounds like an enemy of their parents.

I truly fear for you

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You should be fearing for yourself and your very unbiblical doctrine.

FreeGrace2 said:

No, it's describing saved people. But what it doesn't say anywhere in the context is that salvation can be lost. That idea comes straight from your own PRESUMPTIONS.

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It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. (Heb 6:4-6)

My assertions, not presumptions, come directly from scripture. "It is impossible for those...who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance."

• Those who have fallen away from what? From being enlightened, from having tasted the heavenly gift (salvation/eternal life), partaken of the Spirit (been filled with the Spirit/been born again). You can not fall away from something that you have not already attained. To fall away from salvation is to not be saved any longer!
• To be renewed to repentance: Can you be renewed to something that is still valid? If your repentance isn't valid is salvation valid? No, repentance is foundational to salvation being accomplished, if there is no repentance there isn't and forgiveness, and if there is no forgiveness, there is no salvation! Peter said, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Acts 2:38

These are direct and clear evidence that salvation is lost. The NT never speaks of an enemy of God as being a child of God! It never speaks of God calling his children the enemy.


Doug

TibiasDad said:

As with all weak arguments, you assume that the absence of a particular word means the concept of the word, in this case, salvation, isn’t being discussed. This is an exercise that demonstrates your blindness to both the reading of the text, and reasoned thought.

The words “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age” Hebrews‬ ‭6:4-5 Is talking about being saved!

Likewise with Heb 10, “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.”‭‭ Hebrews‬ ‭10:26-27‬ ‭

“After we have received the knowledge of truth” is talking about salvation! Moreover, “judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God” is not “painful discipline” of children, for children are not “enemies of God”!

I truly fear for you,

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What you point out is one of the important things to realize the more we read Scripture. It often enough speaks of the same topic with different wording. 3-4 of the NT Writings do not use the word "salvation" in any of its forms, but salvation is nevertheless being discussed.

Another example: Years ago I heard an argument, once again from a "faith alone" argument in FG, that repentance is not necessary for salvation and the proof was given that GJohn is all about salvation and the word repentance is never used. But, the basic meaning & idea of repentance & thus the concept of repentance is throughout GJohn.

This desire for simplification just seems to bring about more & more oversimplification.

I said:
"No, it's describing saved people. But what it doesn't say anywhere in the context is that salvation can be lost. That idea comes straight from your own PRESUMPTIONS."

TibiasDad said:

It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. (Heb 6:4-6)

My assertions, not presumptions, come directly from scripture. "It is impossible for those...who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance."

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OK, let's go with this. Do you understand the issue here? It is that believing Jews either returning back to animal sacrifices, or wanting to. And the author of Hebrews makes clear what that results in: "To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace."

Jesus Christ already made the FINAL and permanent sacrifice on the cross for sins. So the animal sacrifices that had been done annually for millennia, were NO LONGER APPLICABLE. In fact, because animal sacrifices were only a shadow of the "good things to come" (Heb 10:1 - The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.)

OK, now for explanation:
Red words state the fact about what the animal sacrifices were: a shadow.
Blue words state the fact that animal sacrifices were NOT the realities themselves.
Green words show WHY animal sacrifices were offered 'year after year'. And the FACT that they didn't 'make perfect' the worshipers.

So, returning to animal sacrifices was an affront to the sacrifice of Christ Himself.

And v.6 says those who return to the shadow sacrifices will not change their minds.

Again, it says nothing about losing salvation.

btw, please response to Isa 51:9 that says "salvation is forever".

TibiasDad said:

These are direct and clear evidence that salvation is lost. The NT never speaks of an enemy of God as being a child of God! It never speaks of God calling his children the enemy.
Doug

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There is NO evidence of salvation being lost. As I just explained in my previous post.

btw, and I've already addressed this, but human children can CERTAINLY become enemies of their parents. And I provided a verse that demonstrates it, which you conveniently ignored.

1 Tim 1:9 - We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers,

Sure sounds like an enemy to me.

And there's no reason to presume that God's children cannot become an enemy. btw, God created all angels, and yet, Lucifer not only rebelled but gathered 1/3 of the heavenly host to join in his rebellion. So 1/3 of the angels became God's enemy.

This verse describes believers:

Phil 3-
17 Join together in following my example, brothers and sisters, and just as you have us as a model, keep your eyes on those who live as we do.
18 For, as I have often told you before and now tell you again even with tears, many live as enemies of the cross of Christ.
19 Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is set on earthly things.

Red words refer to believers who "live as we do" meaning following Paul's teachings.
Blue words refer to "many"; those believers who DON'T follow Paul's teachings.

It appears that your views are quite naive, to say the least.

GDL said:

3-4 of the NT Writings do not use the word "salvation" in any of its forms, but salvation is nevertheless being discussed.

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Great example of such PRESUMPTION and ASSUMPTION.

FreeGrace2 said:

I said:
"No, it's describing saved people. But what it doesn't say anywhere in the context is that salvation can be lost. That idea comes straight from your own PRESUMPTIONS."

OK, let's go with this. Do you understand the issue here? It is that believing Jews either returning back to animal sacrifices, or wanting to. And the author of Hebrews makes clear what that results in: "To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace."

Jesus Christ already made the FINAL and permanent sacrifice on the cross for sins. So the animal sacrifices that had been done annually for millennia, were NO LONGER APPLICABLE. In fact, because animal sacrifices were only a shadow of the "good things to come" (Heb 10:1 - The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.)

OK, now for explanation:
Red words state the fact about what the animal sacrifices were: a shadow.
Blue words state the fact that animal sacrifices were NOT the realities themselves.
Green words show WHY animal sacrifices were offered 'year after year'. And the FACT that they didn't 'make perfect' the worshipers.

So, returning to animal sacrifices was an affront to the sacrifice of Christ Himself.

And v.6 says those who return to the shadow sacrifices will not change their minds.

Again, it says nothing about losing salvation.

btw, please response to Isa 51:9 that says "salvation is forever".

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So I quote Heb 6:4-6, and your response doesn't say anything about Heb 6:4-6! Wow!

Doug

Addendum: I misread a part of FG2's post: he does mention a portion of Heb 6:6, but totally misrepresents the meaning of "To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace." This does not have anything to do with "there remains no sacrifice for sins" in Heb 10:26. What it does demonstrate, is why renewal to repentance is impossible! It is because "they are (actively) crucifying" Christ and disgracing him publicly! If they repented and thereby stopped doing such things, that could be renewed.

Doug

FreeGrace2 said:

btw, and I've already addressed this, but human children can CERTAINLY become enemies of their parents. And I provided a verse that demonstrates it, which you conveniently ignored.

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But that doesn't mean that parents see/regard their children as enemies. If Scripture calls us enemies, that is from God's perspective. God never calls his children enemies! He never calls those who have eternal life enemies! Besides, what human parents and children do does not necessarily represent what God does! Humans are sinful and God is not!

Doug

FreeGrace2 said:

This verse describes believers:

Phil 3-
17 Join together in following my example, brothers and sisters, and just as you have us as a model, keep your eyes on those who live as we do.
18 For, as I have often told you before and now tell you again even with tears, many live as enemies of the cross of Christ.
19 Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is set on earthly things.

Red words refer to believers who "live as we do" meaning following Paul's teachings.
Blue words refer to "many"; those believers who DON'T follow Paul's teachings.

It appears that your views are quite naive, to say the least.

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Anathema! How many times do I have to remind you that Paul may be writing to believers but that doesn't mean he is always talking about believers. You quoted, but have ignored, to your own detriment, that 3:19 says of these people, "Their destiny is destruction..." Not their rewards, but they themselves are destined for "destruction"! (apóleia, destruction, ruin, loss, perishing; eternal ruin) This can mean nothing less that eternal separation from God and all that is good! To deny this, you are not being merely naive, you are being deliberately obstinate.

Doug

I said:
"No, it's describing saved people. But what it doesn't say anywhere in the context is that salvation can be lost. That idea comes straight from your own PRESUMPTIONS."

TibiasDad said:

So I quote Heb 6:4-5, and your response doesn't say anything about Heb 6:4-5! Wow!
Doug

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Actually, the FIRST sentence in my statement above DOES refer to Heb 6:4,5.

But, as usual, your response to what I posted is missing.

TibiasDad said:

But that doesn't mean that parents see/regard their children as enemies.

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Well, you'd have to ask some of them yourself before you offer another opinion.

Plus, the Bible describes rebellious believers as God's enemies.

If Scripture calls us enemies, that is from God's perspective.

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Of course it is. And it proves my point.

God never calls his children enemies!

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Uh, what did you just say? You admitted that Scripture describes some believers as enemies. At least you did read my whole post.

He never calls those who have eternal life enemies!

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Uh, all believers possess eternal life. So your opinion is, once again, wrong.

Besides, what human parents and children do does not necessarily represent what God does! Humans are sinful and God is not!

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You just acknowledged that "IF Scripture describes believers as enemies, that is from God's perspective". Well, Scripture DOES, so your point is refuted.