Temporal Salvation?

[FreeGrace2]

Anathema! How many times do I have to remind you that Paul may be writing to believers but that doesn't mean he is always talking about believers.

Now, why would Paul have the blue words mean unbelievers? He was comparing how believers live. Some follow his teaching and "many" don't. It's real clear if one has an objective open eye.

You quoted, but have ignored, to your own detriment, that 3:19 says of these people, "Their destiny is destruction..." Not their rewards, but they themselves are destined for "destruction"! (apóleia, destruction, ruin, loss, perishing; eternal ruin)

Don't you recall how many times I have mentioned "painful discipline" which included physical death? Well, there you go. I never ignored it at all. It's you who refuse to accept what God's word teaches.

This can mean nothing less that eternal separation from God and all that is good!

Wrong. What YOU yourself ignore is how a person who POSSESSES eternal life can be "eternally separated". Why haven't you EVER explained how that works? And provided any verse that supports your claim?

Don't you realize that IF IF IF your claim were true, then words mean NOTHING.

IF IF IF eternal life can die, then there is no such thing as "eternal".

But you will just gloss over all this and ignore it. So you don't have to face the FACTS and truth.

To deny this, you are not being merely naive, you are being deliberately obstinate.
Doug

Said the overly naive one!! lol

Just explain how eternal life can DIE. Please. I'd really like to know.

If the eternal life that Jesus gave me WHEN I believed can DIE, then what good is that gift anyway?

IF IF IF ETERNAL life can END, then it isn't ETERNAL, is it?

Since you aren't answering my questions or providing any explanation of the obvious results of your theology, I suggest you consult your senior pastor and maybe he can provide you with some response for me.

Thanks.

 

[TibiasDad]

I said:
"No, it's describing saved people. But what it doesn't say anywhere in the context is that salvation can be lost. That idea comes straight from your own PRESUMPTIONS."

Actually, the FIRST sentence in my statement above DOES refer to Heb 6:4,5.

But, as usual, your response to what I posted is missing.

I corrected my misreading...

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Just explain how eternal life can DIE. Please. I'd really like to know.

As usual, you move the goal post when you ask this question, and I have responded to it many times! Eternal life is a) not referring to length of existence, but the type of and/or quality of our existence in relation to God's presence and blessing. And b) that the question is not if eternal life is able to cease, but whether we are in possession of it! We differ only at this point, that one who once believed, but no longer does is in possession of eternal life. Scripture maintains that only those "believing" possess eternal life! Anyone who does not believe (as a matter of how they live their life) cannot possess eternal life! God is under no obligation to those who disbelieve/disobey his word!

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Uh, all believers possess eternal life. So your opinion is, once again, wrong.

Yes, all believers, present tense, active possess eternal life.

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Don't you recall how many times I have mentioned "painful discipline" which included physical death? Well, there you go. I never ignored it at all. It's you who refuse to accept what God's word teaches.

Please show me lexically where eternal destruction ever means painful discipline?

Doug

 

[FreeGrace2]

I asked:
"Just explain how eternal life can DIE. Please. I'd really like to know."

As usual, you move the goal post when you ask this question, and I have responded to it many times! Eternal life is a) not referring to length of existence, but the type of and/or quality of our existence in relation to God's presence and blessing.

OK, while this may be a "response" to my request, it SURE ISN'T a real explanation.

And I'll tell you why. It simply ignores the meaning of "eternal". You have chosen to ignore the real meaning and then just make up your own meaning, in order to satisfy your other opinions.

The biblical word "eternal" is also translated "everlasting" which probably better translates the Greek word.

Either way, you are flatly wrong about "quality" vice "length". In fact, your claim here is simply ludicrous. How can you expect to be taken seriously as a pastor when you make such claims??

And b) that the question is not if eternal life is able to cease, but whether we are in possession of it!

Actually, there is NO QUESTION about the FACT that believers are given the gift of eternal life. The Bible plainly says so. Something your views cannot say.

John 5:24 and 6:47, along with 1 John 5:13 all SAY indicate that eternal life is a present tense POSSESSION. iow, believers HAVE it. Now. Or right now.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

1 John 5:13 - I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

I made the key words bigger so that you won't miss the truth.

But, as if that isn't enough for you to understand, consider this:

1 John 5:11 - And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

Here, instead of your fav verb tense, the PIA, we find an aorist indicative active verb. So this proves that all active believers have ALREADY BEEN GIVEN eternal life.

So, you CANNOT DENY the fact that believers have a present tense possession of eternal life. The Bible says so.

We differ only at this point, that one who once believed, but no longer does is in possession of eternal life.

That we do. But I have the FACTS, not your view.

Because of all that I've just quoted, which PROVES that every CURRENT believer POSSESSES right now (present tense) eternal life.

Now for the cherry on top!!

Jesus said those He gives eternal life shall never perish. Jn 10:28.

So, once given the gift of eternal life, the recipient shall never perish.

That's how to connect the dots, Doug.

And you STILL have NOT shown from Scripture that the gift of eternal life can be or will be taken away, for any reason.

Scripture maintains that only those "believing" possess eternal life!

This is where all that Greek training that you mentioned has FAILED you totally.

Any high schooler who is passing their classes will see the OBVIOUS logic and facts regarding believing and possessing eternal life.

Once a person believes, they possess eternal life.

Once there is possession of eternal life, they shall never perish.

If you can't connect these very simple and straightforward dots, you need to resign as a pastor.

Anyone who does not believe (as a matter of how they live their life) cannot possess eternal life!

Once again your opinions are getting in the way of understanding truth, Doug.

You KNOW you don't have any verses that support your claim here.

And you KNOW that I do, for what I claim.

God is under no obligation to those who disbelieve/disobey his word!
Doug

Says you. But the Bible says those given eternal life shall never perish.

And the Bible says those who believe HAVE eternal life in the RIGHT NOW!!

So whether one continues to believe or not, by the FACT that they HAVE BEEN GIVEN eternal life, they shall never perish.

But your view demands that you reject what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Uh, all believers possess eternal life. So your opinion is, once again, wrong."

Yes, all believers, present tense, active possess eternal life.
Doug

Go back to post #786, Doug. I just proved your opinion to be wrong.

Those who presently believe are given eternal life. And Jesus said those given eternal life shall never perish.

So, here's the deal, Doug. When a person believes, they are given the gift of eternal life. And based on being given eternal life, Jesus said they shall never perish.

So, the result of being given eternal life is that the recipient shall never perish.

Again, the dots are very easy to connect.

But those who cannot, or simply don't want to connect them shouldn't be teaching anyone else about the Bible.

I have shown you biblical PROOF of the fact that believers have eternal SECURITY.

Now, that said, I am NOT advocating or defending the loss of one's faith. Far from it.

I'm the one who correctly warns of severe discipline for those believers who DO depart the faith, which can include being turned over to Satan for either the "destruction of the flesh"(painful physical death) or "being taught not to sin" ( also a very painful experience).

But your opinions have no room for the biblical teaching about God's discipline and so your teaching about the warning passages are all FALSE.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Don't you recall how many times I have mentioned "painful discipline" which included physical death? Well, there you go. I never ignored it at all. It's you who refuse to accept what God's word teaches."

Please show me lexically where eternal destruction ever means painful discipline?
Doug

Doug, where do you get the notion that my quote above is about "eternal destruction"?

I've NEVER even hinted that those going to the lake of fire are under any kind of "disipline".

It seems you really are having a difficult time grasping the meaning of words.

The lake of fire is called the "second death". This is spiritual death. Permanent separation from God.

Discipline only applies to believers who rebel. I've made that clear. So your comments above are quite shocking.

You claim to be a pastor, and you claim to have had formal Greek training, but you cannot follow my posts. Something is wrong here.

Most likely, your extreme bias against eternal security has totally clouded your ability to follow the truth of Scripture. I cannot imagine what else it may be.

 

[TibiasDad]

Because of all that I've just quoted, which PROVES that every CURRENT believer POSSESSES right now (present tense) eternal life.

But you say non-current believers also possess it! Non-current believers are not current believers. Only current believers possess eternal life, non-current believers cannot because they do not currently believe. your aorist verb is predicated on a PAI reality! No PAI, no gift of eternal life. In no place, in my recollection, does scripture say because you believed (aorist) you have been given (aorist) eternal life!

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

So, you CANNOT DENY the fact that believers have a present tense possession of eternal life. The Bible says so.

I ha e never denied this! I deny that those who once believed, but no longer do, possess eternal life. No one who continues to sin has the Father or eternal life. (Heb 10:26, 1 John 3:10)

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Doug, where do you get the notion that my quote above is about "eternal destruction"?

I didn't say you did, I say that your are ignoring the fact of Phil 3:19!

Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is set on earthly things.

Destruction is the word apóleia, which Strong gives the usage as being, "destruction, ruin, loss, perishing; eternal ruin."

"Painful discipline" is never a definition of apóleia, so you have no exegetical foundation for saying or implying the destruction awaiting these people is merely "painful discipline"!

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

I'm the one who correctly warns of severe discipline for those believers who DO depart the faith, which can include being turned over to Satan for either the "destruction of the flesh"(painful physical death) or "being taught not to sin" ( also a very painful experience).

Destruction of the flesh, refers to the sinful nature, not physical death! besides, if one's life is taken, ala Acts 5, they are not be taught not to sin, they are being made incapable of sinning any more.discipline seeks to improve the life of the one being disciplined, improve their behavior in future situations. Dead people don't have future situations!

Doug

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Because of all that I've just quoted, which PROVES that every CURRENT believer POSSESSES right now (present tense) eternal life."

But you say non-current believers also possess it!

Because of 3 very clear reasons:

1. there are NO verses that say that the gift of eternal life can be taken away.
2. Jesus said those given eternal life shall never perish.
3. There are NO verses that warn that loss of faith results in loss of eternal life.

Non-current believers are not current believers.

So what? Once given the gift, the person POSSESSES the gift. And you DON'T have any verses where eternal life is removed, taken back, lost, forfeited.

Only current believers possess eternal life, non-current believers cannot because they do not currently believe.

This kind of circular logic has made you quite dizzy.

The gift of eternal life is given WHEN a person believes. Once THAT occurs, the POSSESS eternal life. And possessors of eternal life shall never perish.

your aorist verb is predicated on a PAI reality! No PAI, no gift of eternal life.

Here's a shock. Of course only PIA believers RECEIVE AND POSSESS eternal life. And that's MY point!!

From that moment, the possessor of eternal life SHALL NEVER PERISH.

This is where your theology goes completely off the rails.

You keep thinking that IF IF IF one's faith fails, they lose eternal life. So, where are your verses that support such an opinion?

In no place, in my recollection, does scripture say because you believed (aorist) you have been given (aorist) eternal life!

Why would the Bible have to say that?

It's YOUR opinion that has no support from Scripture.

When a person believes, they believe in the present tense. And they are given eternal life. Therefore, they are recipients of eternal life and possessors of eternal life.

And Jesus told us the result of being a recipient of eternal life: they shall never perish.

Now, would you please address the red words above and "unpack" the points.

If you can refute (not just disagree with) the red words by using clearly worded Scripture, then you have shown my view to be incorrect.

So, would you, please? I don't want to be wrong any more than you do. So if I am wrong, then please correct my error.

Thank you.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"So, you CANNOT DENY the fact that believers have a present tense possession of eternal life. The Bible says so."

I ha e never denied this! I deny that those who once believed, but no longer do, possess eternal life.

But... your denial isn't based on Scripture. It's based on your BIAS. That's all you have.

No one who continues to sin has the Father or eternal life. (Heb 10:26, 1 John 3:10)

Neither verse says what you are claiming here. Just read them. They don't say what you presume they say.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Doug, where do you get the notion that my quote above is about "eternal destruction"?"

I didn't say you did, I say that your are ignoring the fact of Phil 3:19!

Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is set on earthly things.

Destruction is the word apóleia, which Strong gives the usage as being, "destruction, ruin, loss, perishing; eternal ruin."

So, PROVE that your personal choice of how Paul meant the word in Phil 3:19 CANNOT be any other of the meanings.

I have no doubt that "eternal ruin" can be the meaning in other verses. But the word is also meant to be simply 'destruction', or "ruin, loss, perishing".

So, again, your biased opinion is getting in the way of seeing the truth.

"Painful discipline" is never a definition of apóleia, so you have no exegetical foundation for saying or implying the destruction awaiting these people is merely "painful discipline"!

For someone who has had formal training in Greek, this is rather pathetic.

How can painful discipline NEVER be equated with "destruction", since painful discipline CAN include physical death, which IS also described as destruction.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Destruction of the flesh, refers to the sinful nature, not physical death!

I am continually amazed at what you post, given that you have had formal Greek training.

The sinful nature resides in the physical body. That's why believers are given a NEW resurrection body, a body that cannot sin because the 'sinful nature' has been destroyed.

I am really surprised that you seem so unaware of this fact. There is no other reason for having a new resurrection body.

besides, if one's life is taken, ala Acts 5, they are not be taught not to sin, they are being made incapable of sinning any more.

You are blindly ignoring the fact that being taken home to heaven because of God's discipline means loss of eternal reward, obviously. It's no small thing, even though you just keep trying all the harder to minimize and ignore the significance of WHY God applies discipline to His children. Why can't you realize that God can use His discipline by removing a believer from the earth through death to get the attention to OTHER BELIEVERS who have been observing the sinful activity?

Here are the last 2 verses in the context of Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5-
10 At that moment she fell down at his feet and died. Then the young men came in and, finding her dead, carried her out and buried her beside her husband.
11 Great fear seized the whole church and all who heard about these events.

discipline seeks to improve the life of the one being disciplined, improve their behavior in future situations. Dead people don't have future situations!
Doug

No, God uses His mighty hand of discipline for a variety of reasons. You have no authority to make your baseless claims about how God uses His discipline.

And Acts 5:11 proves He uses His discipline to get the attention of other believers as a way to warn them of their own mortality.

Let me ask you: would you be tempted to do something that you know cost another believer his life for doing it? Intelligent people would know better.

 

[Gr8Grace]

I said:
"No, it's describing saved people. But what it doesn't say anywhere in the context is that salvation can be lost. That idea comes straight from your own PRESUMPTIONS."

OK, let's go with this. Do you understand the issue here? It is that believing Jews either returning back to animal sacrifices, or wanting to. And the author of Hebrews makes clear what that results in: "To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace."

Jesus Christ already made the FINAL and permanent sacrifice on the cross for sins. So the animal sacrifices that had been done annually for millennia, were NO LONGER APPLICABLE. In fact, because animal sacrifices were only a shadow of the "good things to come" (Heb 10:1 - The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.)

OK, now for explanation:
Red words state the fact about what the animal sacrifices were: a shadow.
Blue words state the fact that animal sacrifices were NOT the realities themselves.
Green words show WHY animal sacrifices were offered 'year after year'. And the FACT that they didn't 'make perfect' the worshipers.

So, returning to animal sacrifices was an affront to the sacrifice of Christ Himself.

And v.6 says those who return to the shadow sacrifices will not change their minds.

Again, it says nothing about losing salvation.

btw, please response to Isa 51:9 that says "salvation is forever".

Excellent. Just excellent brother!

 

[Gr8Grace]

Phil 3-
17 Join together in following my example, brothers and sisters, and just as you have us as a model, keep your eyes on those who live as we do.
18 For, as I have often told you before and now tell you again even with tears, many live as enemies of the cross of Christ.
19 Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is set on earthly things.

Red words refer to believers who "live as we do" meaning following Paul's teachings.
Blue words refer to "many"; those believers who DON'T follow Paul's teachings.

It appears that your views are quite naive, to say the least.

And you know as well as I do........That loss of salvation is an enemy of His Cross. That's why we can never over emphasize satans ace trump. RELIGION.

Oh the irony that loser believers want to use Hebrews 6 as 'proof' of losing salvation .......And Hebrews 6 is actually describing them and how the sacrifice of Christ isn't quite enough.......But their ongoing belief is. Publically shaming and crucifying Him afresh.

 

[TibiasDad]

Here's a shock. Of course only PIA believers RECEIVE AND POSSESS eternal life. And that's MY point!!

If only believers receive and possess eternal life, then a non-current believer cannot possess eternal life. We must persevere in belief to possess and eventually gain eternal life. As James says, "Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial because, having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him." (Jas 1:12 ) And again, "What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?" (Jas 2:14 ) Having believed alone is not enough to save, one must obey/do the things of God, for "As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead." (Jas 2:26 ) And finally, just one of John's many such exhortations, "As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—eternal life." ( 1Jn 2:24-25 )

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Here are the last 2 verses in the context of Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5-
10 At that moment she fell down at his feet and died. Then the young men came in and, finding her dead, carried her out and buried her beside her husband.
11 Great fear seized the whole church and all who heard about these events.

Of course they did, Ananias and Sapphira just went to help for seeking to exalt themselves among the church and lied directly to God about what they did. And as we learn from the last chapter of Revelation, "But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." All unrepentant liars "will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur."

Doug