[MOVED] The Extended Evolutionary Synthesis

stevevw

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I presume you mean 'causal'; but I did not say that - in fact I suggested that causality was not a useful discriminator.

Please don't tell me what I think or tell other people what I said. You're welcome to quote me; if you want to know what I think, ask me; perhaps if you had asked some pertinent questions instead of repeatedly asserting your interpretation, you might have come to some understanding, but in any case, the answers are there in the thread.
Ok, I apologize if that's the case. But I read your post #38 as saying just that or at least implying that. You responded to the debate between us in post #32 where I was arguing that the EES papers were saying that the EES forces were actual causes of evolution and you were saying they were only contributors. I then replied

Steve said
The EES influences are not contributors to evolution, they are causes like NS.

You then said in post #38
Would 'causal contributors' make you happy? Whatever, that's semantic quibbling.

I took this at face value that you were acknowledging with me that the EES forces were seen as causes of evolution.
 
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VirOptimus

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I cannot see how this can be the case as there is no one definition of theistic evolution. It can range from a from God starting evolution in the Darwinian sense and then opting out to a form of creationism where God inserts himself into the evolutionary process by doing supernatural acts during the process of evolution. It can be vague as well in that while trying to claim evolution as a naturalistic unguided and purposeless process that excludes any ID it also rejects the unguided aspect of evolution by inserting God as the guiding agent giving evolution purpose and means to an end which sort of supports ID and thus contradictory.

Some theistic evolutionists look for design in nature due to believing God is involved in evolution. Even saying that God began the process of evolution by creating the first single-celled life is a form of ID in that God designed the living cell and this was the basis for all life that followed including the process of evolution. So for some evolution is due to ID in some way.

So taking all this into consideration theistic evolution very much includes God and takes on forms that don't just have God kicking off the process and then opting out which seems like a silly kind of theistic evolution anyway and more like the non-theistic evolution you have when your not having non-theistic evolution.
I stand by my assesement of your inability to understand science and theology.
 
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Kylie

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Yup - that's the GWIMW (God Works In Mysterious Ways) excuse.

GWIMW sounds like when I tried to say the name of the Dwarf in The Lord of the Rings with a mouth full of mashed potato. :p
 
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stevevw

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I stand by my assessment of your inability to understand science and theology.
I have two assessments to go by, one from you who has not supported your claim nor shown your credentials to give any credibility to what you say. The other is from verified sources, theistic evolutionists themselves, qualified academics in both biology and theology.

They say that theistic evolution has different versions. This includes those who believe God intervenes in the evolutionary process several times over the course of evolution such as when speciation occurs. Not just at the beginning.

What you fail to understand is that there are many theists and they are not all of one faith. You are just assuming one view which I would say is your own but that does not represent the many different views and versions of both belief and evolution.

Here are some of the ways theistic evolutionists believe God gets involved in the evolution which you are overlooking.
* God intervenes by making sure some random mutations are beneficial.
* God intervenes in evolution at the point of speciation.
* Further down the theistic evolutionary spectrum there is guided or progressive evolution. Supporters believe God makes a series of explicit interventions and genetic modifications, with the aim of producing humanity.
* Then there are theistic evolutionists who look for design in evolution. Highlighting where evolution is a design mechanism with a purpose. Rather than taking the science as it stands in the scientific method which is based on testing and verification.
Theistic evolution - RationalWiki
 
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VirOptimus

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I have two assessments to go by, one from you who has not supported your claim nor shown your credentials to give any credibility to what you say. The other is from verified sources, theistic evolutionists themselves, qualified academics in both biology and theology.

They say that theistic evolution has different versions. This includes those who believe God intervenes in the evolutionary process several times over the course of evolution such as when speciation occurs. Not just at the beginning.

What you fail to understand is that there are many theists and they are not all of one faith. You are just assuming one view which I would say is your own but that does not represent the many different views and versions of both belief and evolution.

Here are some of the ways theistic evolutionists believe God gets involved in the evolution which you are overlooking.
* God intervenes by making sure some random mutations are beneficial.
* God intervenes in evolution at the point of speciation.
* Further down the theistic evolutionary spectrum there is guided or progressive evolution. Supporters believe God makes a series of explicit interventions and genetic modifications, with the aim of producing humanity.
* Then there are theistic evolutionists who look for design in evolution. Highlighting where evolution is a design mechanism with a purpose. Rather than taking the science as it stands in the scientific method which is based on testing and verification.
Theistic evolution - RationalWiki
Q.E.D.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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You are taking a fixed view that you assume is the only way theistic evolution is viewed.
I'm not taking any view on theistic evolution, just reporting what the Wiki article you quoted says.

Again, please don't tell me what I think - if you want to know, just ask.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Ok, I apologize if that's the case. But I read your post #38 as saying just that or at least implying that. You responded to the debate between us in post #32 where I was arguing that the EES papers were saying that the EES forces were actual causes of evolution and you were saying they were only contributors. I then replied

Steve said
The EES influences are not contributors to evolution, they are causes like NS.

You then said in post #38
Would 'causal contributors' make you happy? Whatever, that's semantic quibbling.

I took this at face value that you were acknowledging with me that the EES forces were seen as causes of evolution.
Oh FFS! I told you that, "All parties acknowledge that these factors are contributors to evolution". You decided that causes were not contributors, so I compromised with 'causal contributors'.

IOW, I modified my original statement to become, "All parties acknowledge that these factors are causal contributors to evolution".

Though insisting that the various influences on multifactorial evolution are 'causes' rather than 'contributors' seems an oxymoronic exercise in pedantic futility. No doubt one of the articles you quote used the word, so it must be dogma. Meh.
 
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stevevw

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You said God does not get involved in theistic evolution. I merely quoted from the Wiki article that says God does get involved. Why is it so hard to admit you are wrong.

Wiki states in clear, plain simple language without any hidden meaning
* God intervenes by making sure some random mutations are beneficial.
* God intervenes in evolution at the point of speciation.
Theistic evolution - RationalWiki
 
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VirOptimus

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You said God does not get involved in theistic evolution. I merely quoted from the Wiki article that says God does get involved. Why is it so hard to admit you are wrong.

Wiki states in clear, plain simple language without any hidden meaning
* God intervenes by making sure some random mutations are beneficial.
* God intervenes in evolution at the point of speciation.
Theistic evolution - RationalWiki
Stop misquoting me!

I said that theistic evolutionists dont include god(s) in the theory of evolution.

You really dont understand the subject.
 
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stevevw

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Oh FFS! I told you that, "All parties acknowledge that these factors are contributors to evolution". You decided that causes were not contributors, so I compromised with 'causal contributors'.

IOW, I modified my original statement to become, "All parties acknowledge that these factors are causal contributors to evolution".

Though insisting that the various influences on multifactorial evolution are 'causes' rather than 'contributors' seems an oxymoronic exercise in pedantic futility. No doubt one of the articles you quote used the word, so it must be dogma. Meh.
At the end of the day do you think the EES forces of developmental bias, plasticity, niche construction, and inheritance beyond genes are causes of evolution on par with natural selection. That they can produce adaptive and heritable variations that can direct natural selection and thus direct evolution.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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At the end of the day do you think the EES forces of developmental bias, plasticity, niche construction, and inheritance beyond genes are causes of evolution on par with natural selection. That they can produce adaptive and heritable variations that can direct natural selection and thus direct evolution.
It's a meaningless question. Those influences are contributors to heritable variation which helps determine fitness; they're qualitatively different to, and so not comparable to, natural selection which acts on heritable variation, selecting for fitness. Both are needed to change gene frequencies in populations over generations - which is the definition of evolution. If you think evolution can happen without one or the other, I'd like to hear some examples.

Natural selection is not directed by anything, it's simply 'survival of the fittest'; you produce offspring or you don't - the reproduction filter. The various processes and influences contributing to heritable variation will affect which organisms manage to reproduce successfully.
 
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stevevw

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Stop misquoting me!

I said that theistic evolutionists dont include god(s) in the theory of evolution.

You really don't understand the subject.
You actually said
Theistic evolutionists do not insert god(s) in the ToE.
what I said is more or less the same thing. Its just semantics.
Theistic evolutionists 'does not involve' or 'does not inset' or 'does not include' God is all the same intended meaning.
 
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VirOptimus

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You actually said
Theistic evolutionists do not insert god(s) in the ToE.
what I said is more or less the same thing. Its just semantics.
Theistic evolutionists 'does not involve' or 'does not inset' or 'does not include' God is all the same intended meaning.
No, you said in evolution, I said the theory of evolution.

Learn to read.
 
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stevevw

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It's a meaningless question.
It maybe to you and that's probably the whole point in that people see things differently and your not including that. If you go back over my posts and search for the word ‘cause’ you will see it mentioned over and over again. That's because it is the central dispute in the debate between the SET and the EES IE ‘what causes and directs’ evolution. As mentioned many times the SET doesn’t think the EES forces are actual causes and directors of evolution whereas the EES supporters do.

Though you said the EES forces are contributors I thought that was an important distinction you were making that continued to diminish the full recognition of the EES forces as causes of evolution on par and alongside the main and often only force of SET which is NS acting on random gene change in how adaptive variation is produced. The EES makes this the central issue of difference IE

The story that SET tells is simple: new variation arises through random genetic mutation; inheritance occurs through DNA; and natural selection is the sole cause of adaptation, the process by which organisms become well-suited to their environments.

Missing pieces include how physical development influences the generation of variation (developmental bias); how the environment directly shapes organisms’ traits (plasticity); how organisms modify environments (niche construction); and how organisms transmit more than genes across generations (extra-genetic inheritance). For SET, these phenomena are just outcomes of evolution. For the EES, they are also causes.
Does evolutionary theory need a rethink?

Those influences are contributors to heritable variation which helps determine fitness; they're qualitatively different to, and so not comparable to, natural selection which acts on heritable variation, selecting for fitness.
That's because when it comes to the outcome of evolution which at the end of the day is most important the differences in how variation is produced are important as to what role NS plays in producing that adaptive and heritable variation. This is probably the crux of the matter in the differences between the SET and the EES which the papers or emphasizing. That's why the difference between contribution and the cause is important. The EES thinks the EES forces are causes of the evolutionary outcome for adaptive and heritable variation in themselves thus biasing and directing what NS does.

As I have been pointing out this is an important distinction because if the EES forces can produce already well suited, integrative and the adaptive variation that becomes heritable and is produced already fit then this more or less does the job of NS and in some occasions gene change. So the EES forces are not just contributors to adaptive and heritable variation, they cause them.

Like I said technically NS may then rubber-stamp this but the work and credit for it happening has already been done by the EES forces. This needs to be recognized and acknowledged as it changes the structure of evolution and adds new insights and scientific hypothesis and predictions.

Both are needed to change gene frequencies in populations over generations - which is the definition of evolution. If you think evolution can happen without one or the other, I'd like to hear some examples.
That's another point under the EES heritable variation can be non-gene as pointed out from the papers in calling the SET causes of variation ‘gene-centric’ and why one of the EES forces is called inheritance beyond genes. The EES includes non-gene change as adaptive and heritable variations including changes to environments that is also passed on which influences phenotypes. Such as from niche construction where environmental change can lead to adaptive fit for creatures and thus passes on change.

The same with inheritance beyond genes which I have already explained including an epigenetic change which is not a change in the underlying genes but how they are expressed. The same as the developmental processes emphasized by the EES as causes of adaptive and fit variations IE

Developmental processes play important evolutionary roles as causes of novel, potentially beneficial, phenotypic variants, the differential fitness of those variants, and/or their inheritance (i.e. all three of Lewontin's [98] conditions for evolution by natural selection). Thus, the burden of creativity in evolution (i.e. the generation of adaptation) does not rest on selection alone [12,19,25,27,60,64,73,99101].
http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/282/1813/20151019

In other-words the EES says that EES forces such as through developmental processes also meet the requirements for causes of evolution in the same way that the SET uses evolutionary cause through NS.

Natural selection is not directed by anything, it's simply 'survival of the fittest'; you produce offspring or you don't - the reproduction filter. The various processes and influences contributing to heritable variation will affect which organisms manage to reproduce successfully.
This shows that despite you saying that you support the EES you don’t really appreciate its full ability as a cause of adaptive and fit variation that meets the criteria for evolutionary causes and drivers. That you still see NS as the sole force in evolution as the EES papers point out. NS can be biased and directed by the EES forces because they produce certain variations as opposed to random variations that need filtering. The variation produced by the EES forces doesn’t need filtering because they are already suitable, adaptive, and fit for the environment.

That is because developmental processes don’t just produce any variation but suitable and integrated variations as a response to the environment. Also, creatures are not seen as passive participants in evolutionary change but can control their own evolution by making changes to the environment and putting themselves in positions that create adaptively and fit changes for future generations (not restricted to genes). In that sense, there is no separations between creature and environment but rather a feedback loop that works to help creatures adapt to the environment.

This is all included in the papers and that is why I stated that overall the differences between the EES and the SET can be seen as the SET taking a programmed view (creatures are programmed through DNA to adapt) as opposed to a constructive and reciprocal process that includes a wide pluralistic process placing the creature itself at the center for evolutionary change IE

This interpretation is also based on a fundamentally different account of the role of genes in development and evolution. In the EES, genes are not causally privileged as programs or blueprints that control and dictate phenotypic outcomes, but are rather parts of the systemic dynamics of interactions that mobilize self-organizing processes in the evolution of development and entire life cycles. This represents a shift from a programmed to a constructive role of developmental processes in evolution.

In fact, the conceptual change associated with the EES is largely a change in the perceived relationship between genes and development: a shift from a programmed to a constructive view of development. Although genes are fundamental to development and heredity, they are not causally privileged in either of these processes [9,129,130].
http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/282/1813/20151019[/quote][/quote]
 
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stevevw

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No, you said in evolution, I said the theory of evolution.

Learn to read.
What is the difference between saying 'evolution' and the 'theory of evolution'. Aren't they the same thing. The theory of evolution is what people this evolution actually is.

But all this is just another example of changing the focus from the content onto the person. You still haven't replied to how the WIKI article supports what I said in showing that theistic evolutionists do include God with supernatural ongoing acts in how evolution works (theory or not) thus influencing how they see evolution and science. Not all accept the same theory of evolution as mainstream do.
 
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VirOptimus

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What is the difference between saying 'evolution' and the 'theory of evolution'. Aren't they the same thing. The theory of evolution is what people this evolution actually is.

But all this is just another example of changing the focus from the content onto the person. You still haven't replied to how the WIKI article supports what I said in showing that theistic evolutionists do include God with supernatural ongoing acts in how evolution works (theory or not).
No, it supports my view.

Your inability to understand is the root of the problem with all your posts.
 
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stevevw

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No, it supports my view.

Your inability to understand is the root of the problem with all your posts.
The fact that you restrict theistic evolution to one view ( that they don't include God in the ToE) proves you wrong in the first place. The fact is there is more than one view of theistic evolution and your position doesn't cover them all.

I agree with what you say, some versions of theistic evolution do try to exclude God from the ToE. Though I think that is hard when God actually starts the evolutionary process in these versions.

But what you fail to see is that there are other versions of theistic evolution that do include God in the ToE and how it works by God intervening with supernatural creation acts more than once in evolution such as influencing mutations and speciation.

I supplied evidence which you are ignoring by repeated unsupported assertions that you are correct. How can you say it supports your view and deny written evidence from verified sources? It makes me wonder who really understands the article.
 
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VirOptimus

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The fact that you restrict theistic evolution to one view ( that they don't include God in the ToE) proves you wrong in the first place. The fact is there is more than one view of theistic evolution and your position doesn't cover them all.

Other versions of theistic evolution do include God in the ToE and how it works by God intervening with supernatural creation acts more than once in evolution such as influencing mutations and speciation.

I supplied evidence which you are ignoring by repeated unsupported assertions that you are correct. How can you say it supports your view and deny written evidence from verified sources?
Beliving miracles happen is not the same as including god(s) in the ToE.

Read you own quotes, theistic evolutionists accept the science, i.e. the ToE, and the ToE does not include god(s).

Just as christians can accept the theory of gravity and still believe Jesus walked on water.
 
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VirOptimus

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It maybe to you and that's probably the whole point in that people see things differently and your not including that. If you go back over my posts and search for the word ‘cause’ you will see it mentioned over and over again. That's because it is the central dispute in the debate between the SET and the EES IE ‘what causes and directs’ evolution. As mentioned many times the SET doesn’t think the EES forces are actual causes and directors of evolution whereas the EES supporters do.

Though you said the EES forces are contributors I thought that was an important distinction you were making that continued to diminish the full recognition of the EES forces as causes of evolution on par and alongside the main and often only force of SET which is NS acting on random gene change in how adaptive variation is produced. The EES makes this the central issue of difference IE

The story that SET tells is simple: new variation arises through random genetic mutation; inheritance occurs through DNA; and natural selection is the sole cause of adaptation, the process by which organisms become well-suited to their environments.

Missing pieces include how physical development influences the generation of variation (developmental bias); how the environment directly shapes organisms’ traits (plasticity); how organisms modify environments (niche construction); and how organisms transmit more than genes across generations (extra-genetic inheritance). For SET, these phenomena are just outcomes of evolution. For the EES, they are also causes.
Does evolutionary theory need a rethink?

That's because when it comes to the outcome of evolution which at the end of the day is most important the differences in how variation is produced are important as to what role NS plays in producing that adaptive and heritable variation. This is probably the crux of the matter in the differences between the SET and the EES which the papers or emphasizing. That's why the difference between contribution and the cause is important. The EES thinks the EES forces are causes of the evolutionary outcome for adaptive and heritable variation in themselves thus biasing and directing what NS does.

As I have been pointing out this is an important distinction because if the EES forces can produce already well suited, integrative and the adaptive variation that becomes heritable and is produced already fit then this more or less does the job of NS and in some occasions gene change. So the EES forces are not just contributors to adaptive and heritable variation, they cause them.

Like I said technically NS may then rubber-stamp this but the work and credit for it happening has already been done by the EES forces. This needs to be recognized and acknowledged as it changes the structure of evolution and adds new insights and scientific hypothesis and predictions.

That's another point under the EES heritable variation can be non-gene as pointed out from the papers in calling the SET causes of variation ‘gene-centric’ and why one of the EES forces is called inheritance beyond genes. The EES includes non-gene change as adaptive and heritable variations including changes to environments that is also passed on which influences phenotypes. Such as from niche construction where environmental change can lead to adaptive fit for creatures and thus passes on change.

The same with inheritance beyond genes which I have already explained including an epigenetic change which is not a change in the underlying genes but how they are expressed. The same as the developmental processes emphasized by the EES as causes of adaptive and fit variations IE

Developmental processes play important evolutionary roles as causes of novel, potentially beneficial, phenotypic variants, the differential fitness of those variants, and/or their inheritance (i.e. all three of Lewontin's [98] conditions for evolution by natural selection). Thus, the burden of creativity in evolution (i.e. the generation of adaptation) does not rest on selection alone [12,19,25,27,60,64,73,99101].
http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/282/1813/20151019

In other-words the EES says that EES forces such as through developmental processes also meet the requirements for causes of evolution in the same way that the SET uses evolutionary cause through NS.

This shows that despite you saying that you support the EES you don’t really appreciate its full ability as a cause of adaptive and fit variation that meets the criteria for evolutionary causes and drivers. That you still see NS as the sole force in evolution as the EES papers point out. NS can be biased and directed by the EES forces because they produce certain variations as opposed to random variations that need filtering. The variation produced by the EES forces doesn’t need filtering because they are already suitable, adaptive, and fit for the environment.

That is because developmental processes don’t just produce any variation but suitable and integrated variations as a response to the environment. Also, creatures are not seen as passive participants in evolutionary change but can control their own evolution by making changes to the environment and putting themselves in positions that create adaptively and fit changes for future generations (not restricted to genes). In that sense, there is no separations between creature and environment but rather a feedback loop that works to help creatures adapt to the environment.

This is all included in the papers and that is why I stated that overall the differences between the EES and the SET can be seen as the SET taking a programmed view (creatures are programmed through DNA to adapt) as opposed to a constructive and reciprocal process that includes a wide pluralistic process placing the creature itself at the center for evolutionary change IE

This interpretation is also based on a fundamentally different account of the role of genes in development and evolution. In the EES, genes are not causally privileged as programs or blueprints that control and dictate phenotypic outcomes, but are rather parts of the systemic dynamics of interactions that mobilize self-organizing processes in the evolution of development and entire life cycles. This represents a shift from a programmed to a constructive role of developmental processes in evolution.

In fact, the conceptual change associated with the EES is largely a change in the perceived relationship between genes and development: a shift from a programmed to a constructive view of development. Although genes are fundamental to development and heredity, they are not causally privileged in either of these processes [9,129,130].
http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/282/1813/20151019
We already know you want to insert god as the cause of evolution and believe that the EES gives you room to do that.
 
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stevevw

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Beliving miracles happen is not the same as including god(s) in the ToE.

Read you own quotes, theistic evolutionists accept the science, i.e. the ToE, and the ToE does not include god(s).

Just as Christians can accept the theory of gravity and still believe Jesus walked on water.
You missing the point. Your original point was how my belief influence how I saw science. You are derailing things away from what we were talking about which you often do so that you can attack the person. The point I am making is that theistic evolutionists do allow their beliefs to influence their science in trying to reconcile evolution or the ToE to their beliefs. They change the science of the ToE for example where mutations are random in the ToE to God intervening and making mutations positive so that life can evolve.

The article states that this is one of the positions of theistic evolution. The other point you are missing is that not all theistic evolutionists support the ToE as you see it or as the MS sees it and not all theists are Christians. I mean the even mainstream ToE is not completely agreed upon let alone how different theistic evolutionists see things. You are restricting things down to how you see things and not the wide variety of views for both evolution and theistic evolution.
 
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