What types of externalities invalidate the claim of "peaceful" in the context of method of protest?

[RDKirk]

The tactics are not good and, in my opinion, they undercut the point. It's like everything this administration does, hamfisted and unthinking.

What seems to be happening in this case is that the money is doing the talking. McDonald's corporation and their type aren't happy.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

As for Obama / Trump, this may well be another case where the particulars turn views in different directions. How much was Obama's success at turning away people just over the border vs establish hard working people? Who knows. Anyway I dont speak for the accused hypocrites. Maybe a few are here and can chime in.

I think Obama being president sort of "masked" certain disgruntlements in certain communities that would've come to the forefront much earlier had the democratic president during that tenure been another old white guy.


If you look at the polling data among Black American voters.
The majority support maintaining the number of immigrants we have in the country via tighter border controls
Over 70% believe some should be deported
19% believe that all illegal immigrants should be deported
Strong support for "social integration" requirements (meaning, they want the people who come in to make some sort of effort to assimilate)


And there was an interesting piece written by John McWhorter (and I'll see if I can dig it up again), but he elaborated on how democrats making a huge fuss over making sure illegal immigrants get certain accommodations/considerations starting around 2010-2012 was a slap in the face to a lot of impoverished black communities (and other minority communities who are actual citizens) who've been wanting those things from Democrats for decades and gotten nothing more that lip service, but it wasn't quite as "noticed", because people were happy with the milestone of having a president who was a person of color.

Some of the things he cited was the fact that it's long been a grievance in the Black and (legal) Latino communities that they're disproportionately more likely to serve time for non-violent offenses which leads to families getting separated. And apart from some rhetoric, not a lot was done.

Yet, when it was happening to undocumented people at the border, a bunch of Democrats raced down there to cry out in front of the detention facility for a photo-op.

Democratic governors signing bills to give education and healthcare to undocumented people
Democratic mayors offering to make their cities "sanctuaries" to help undocumented people avoid apprehension, and putting them up in $400/night hotel rooms to boot.


McWhorter asserted in the piece that things like that explain some of the "surprising" increases Trump saw among certain minority voters (but that it wasn't actually so "surprising" when you consider the backdrop and different variables at play between the Obama presidency and the Trump presidency)

I believe how McWhorter worded it in a televised interview was that "People were still drunk on the Hope & Change elixir when it was happening during Obama's tenure, and didn't get the hangover until Trump's tenure"

 

[bèlla]

I think some things should be off limits. Especially residences. We had an ice protest on Friday that went to Trump Tower and that‘s a hard line for me. Screaming about the president in front of someone’s home shouldn’t be allowed just because he owns the building.

~bella

 

[Hans Blaster]

I think some things should be off limits. Especially residences. We had an ice protest on Friday that went to Trump Tower and that‘s a hard line for me. Screaming about the president in front of someone’s home shouldn’t be allowed just because he owns the building.

~bella

Isn't that his home as well? (It's not like anyone living in a "Trump" branded building doesn't know that it will attract his detractors. This isn't 2015 anymore.

 

[bèlla]

Isn't that his home as well? (It's not like anyone living in a "Trump" branded building doesn't know that it will attract his detractors. This isn't 2015 anymore.

He doesn’t live there and the building was constructed before he was elected. It was the subject of one of the seasons of The Apprentice. The condos are expensive and I wouldn’t want that at my door. It has nothing to do with him. It’s a matter of decency and privacy.

~bella

 

[bèlla]

If you look at the polling data among Black American voters.
The majority support maintaining the number of immigrants we have in the country via tighter border controls
Over 70% believe some should be deported
19% believe that all illegal immigrants should be deported
Strong support for "social integration" requirements (meaning, they want the people who come in to make some sort of effort to assimilate)

I don’t know what you’re reading or who you’re listening to. Blacks don’t support illegal immigration nor are they asking for them to stay and be integrated. They wholly support deportation whether they voted for Trump or not. And they don’t stand with the protests happening this weekend and have repeatedly said to leave them out of it.

It isn’t their fight and they won’t get involved. That is their position and you will hear this consistently on many platforms.

~bella

 

[RDKirk]

I don’t know what you’re reading or who you’re listening to. Blacks don’t support illegal immigration nor are they asking for them to stay and be integrated. They wholly support deportation whether they voted for Trump or not. And they don’t stand with the protests happening this weekend and have repeatedly said to leave them out of it.

It isn’t their fight and they won’t get involved. That is their position and you will hear this consistently on many platforms.

~bella

ThatRobGuy said: If you look at the polling data among Black American voters.
The majority support maintaining the number of immigrants we have in the country via tighter border controls
Over 70% believe some should be deported
19% believe that all illegal immigrants should be deported
Strong support for "social integration" requirements (meaning, they want the people who come in to make some sort of effort to assimilate)

The polling numbers @ThatRobGuy reported are probably accurate and don't dispute what @bèlla said.

There has been considerable contention between black people and Latinos for the last 40 years or so as a zero-sum game has been playing out in the lower working classes of both communities in urban areas.

This has been especially acerbic in Los Angeles County, from harsh words between politicians at the top down to violence in the streets. Latinos have essentially captured the lower working class employment environment in LA, shutting black people out of the jobs black people used to do. Latinos have been forcing--sometimes violently--black people out of LA neighborhoods such as Compton. (black not long ago, now Latino as a result of a violent neighborhood war) So, for people aware of the situation, there is zero surprise that black LA residents are not turning out to support LA Latinos.

It's not just a matter of "not our fight." There is strong conflict involved as well.

 

[bèlla]

It's not just a matter of "not our fight." There is strong conflict involved as well.

I didn’t mention them on purpose to minimize the suggestion of racism. But truth be told, it isn’t only the lower classes and there‘s a similar position with Asians after the affirmative action fiasco. It‘s a larger consensus to stay in your lane and let them resolve things on their own. They’re not standing with a lot of groups and it‘s bigger than race. Many are focused on themselves and ignoring the rest and I encourage its continuance.

~bella

 

[Hans Blaster]

He doesn’t live there and the building was constructed before he was elected. It was the subject of one of the seasons of The Apprentice. The condos are expensive and I wouldn’t want that at my door. It has nothing to do with him. It’s a matter of decency and privacy.

~bella

I believe he moved his legal residence to a country club in Florida, but he still has his penthouse apartment in Trump Tower.

 

[bèlla]

I believe he moved his legal residence to a country club in Florida, but he still has his penthouse apartment in Trump Tower.

He doesn’t come here that often and the location is a bottleneck. I live a few minutes from the building and it’s on a quiet street. They’ve been subjected to a lot over the years that isn’t mentioned on mainstream media. How would you feel if someone was in front of your building with a machete or guillotine? You wouldn’t be focused on their politics. You’d be wondering what‘s wrong with them. That isn’t normal behavior. They went to the mayor’s home as well and hung an effigy from a tree while chanting and yelling obscenities and she wasn’t in a high rise. That’s too much.

~bella

 

[Hans Blaster]

He doesn’t come here that often and the location is a bottleneck. I live a few minutes from the building and it’s on a quiet street. They’ve been subjected to a lot over the years that isn’t mentioned on mainstream media. How would you feel if someone was in front of your building with a machete or guillotine? You wouldn’t be focused on their politics. You’d be wondering what‘s wrong with them. That isn’t normal behavior. They went to the mayor’s home as well and hung an effigy from a tree while chanting and yelling obscenities and she wasn’t in a high rise. That’s too much.

~bella

Fifth Avenue is a quiet street?

 

[bèlla]

Fifth Avenue is a quiet street?

We have a Trump residence here as well. That‘s the one I was referring to.

 

[Hans Blaster]

We have a Trump residence here as well. That‘s the one I was referring to.

Trump Tower is in Manhattan. I don't know where else he "lives" other than Mar-a-Lago.

 

[public hermit]

What seems to be happening in this case is that the money is doing the talking. McDonald's corporation and their type aren't happy.

Are you referring to the guidance that came down to ICE today not to target farms, businesses, and restaurants?

 

[Bradskii]

Blacks don’t support illegal immigration...
...nor are they asking for them to stay and be integrated.
They wholly support deportation...
...they don’t stand with the protests
...they have repeatedly said to leave them out of it.
It isn’t their fight
...they won’t get involved.
That is their position

I'm glad we have someone who can tell us what they want.

 

[Bradskii]

Are you referring to the guidance that came down to ICE today not to target farms, businesses, and restaurants?

I've seen a couple of posts saying that we should recognise that this is an example of the administration doing the right thing. Whereas it's an example of how much thought is going into these actions in the first place. Which is zero.

How many times have we seen so many people say, right from the start, even before Trump was elected, that many of these people are an integral part of society. That they do essential work. It's taken months for the penny to drop?

Calling this a clown show is an insult to clowns.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

I've seen a couple of posts saying that we should recognise that this is an example of the administration doing the right thing. Whereas it's an example of how much thought is going into these actions in the first place. Which is zero.

How many times have we seen so many people say, right from the start, even before Trump was elected, that many of these people are an integral part of society. That they do essential work. It's taken months for the penny to drop?

Calling this a clown show is an insult to clowns.

I go the other way on that one... farms and restaurants shouldn't be exempt.

"They'll do essential work for pennies on the dollar" isn't a good rationale for letting someone stay in the country illegally.

Too many bad incentive structures. (and that should be something that the left should agree with me on).

What kind of leverage do lower wage citizens have for negotiating a wage increase if "The guy who snuck over here illegally will do it for 1/3 that amount" is an option employers have?

"We need to pay better wages" doesn't gel with "Illegal immigrants are vital because they'll pick berries for $4/hour under the table"

All of the arguments about the "huge economic boost that undocumented immigrants provide for the economy" solely hangs on the fact that they're doing it for pennies on the dollar. If they all made $18/hour, the economic benefits would mostly vanish.


And for the right wing? They should reap what they sow on this.

I'm perfectly willing to pay more for stuff if it means having better control over our borders and who gets in.

If people on the right want to exempt the things that will cost them more, then they would be hypocrites in that scenario.



How does that old expression go?

Democracy is the idea that people know exactly what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard

 

[bèlla]

I'm glad we have someone who can tell us what they want.

Are you suggesting I wouldn’t have that information or doubting its accuracy?

~bella

 

[durangodawood]

I think Obama being president sort of "masked" certain disgruntlements in certain communities that would've come to the forefront much earlier had the democratic president during that tenure been another old white guy.


If you look at the polling data among Black American voters.
The majority support maintaining the number of immigrants we have in the country via tighter border controls
Over 70% believe some should be deported
19% believe that all illegal immigrants should be deported
Strong support for "social integration" requirements (meaning, they want the people who come in to make some sort of effort to assimilate)


And there was an interesting piece written by John McWhorter (and I'll see if I can dig it up again), but he elaborated on how democrats making a huge fuss over making sure illegal immigrants get certain accommodations/considerations starting around 2010-2012 was a slap in the face to a lot of impoverished black communities (and other minority communities who are actual citizens) who've been wanting those things from Democrats for decades and gotten nothing more that lip service, but it wasn't quite as "noticed", because people were happy with the milestone of having a president who was a person of color.

Some of the things he cited was the fact that it's long been a grievance in the Black and (legal) Latino communities that they're disproportionately more likely to serve time for non-violent offenses which leads to families getting separated. And apart from some rhetoric, not a lot was done.

Yet, when it was happening to undocumented people at the border, a bunch of Democrats raced down there to cry out in front of the detention facility for a photo-op.

Democratic governors signing bills to give education and healthcare to undocumented people
Democratic mayors offering to make their cities "sanctuaries" to help undocumented people avoid apprehension, and putting them up in $400/night hotel rooms to boot.


McWhorter asserted in the piece that things like that explain some of the "surprising" increases Trump saw among certain minority voters (but that it wasn't actually so "surprising" when you consider the backdrop and different variables at play between the Obama presidency and the Trump presidency)

I believe how McWhorter worded it in a televised interview was that "People were still drunk on the Hope & Change elixir when it was happening during Obama's tenure, and didn't get the hangover until Trump's tenure"

I recall that stuff. But it doesnt really help me understand what if any difference there is between the Obama and Trump efforts on this front which might get people especially upset about ICE actions now.

One difference I do know is that Trump has been extraordinarily disgusting the way he regards these people. "Vermin". And "poisoning the blood of our country". And so on. I know Trump is not a Nazi of course. but that is distinctly Nazi talk there. Animalizing and medicalizing groups of people. Its vile.

As for black American sentiment, I did not know that the majority support maintaining the number of immigrants we have in the country via tighter border controls. Given all the resentments you note, youd think they might be for trying to reduce the number of resident immigrants.

 

[BCP1928]

The polling numbers @ThatRobGuy reported are probably accurate and don't dispute what @bèlla said.

There has been considerable contention between black people and Latinos for the last 40 years or so as a zero-sum game has been playing out in the lower working classes of both communities in urban areas.

This has been especially acerbic in Los Angeles County, from harsh words between politicians at the top down to violence in the streets. Latinos have essentially captured the lower working class employment environment in LA, shutting black people out of the jobs black people used to do. Latinos have been forcing--sometimes violently--black people out of LA neighborhoods such as Compton. (black not long ago, now Latino as a result of a violent neighborhood war) So, for people aware of the situation, there is zero surprise that black LA residents are not turning out to support LA Latinos.

It's not just a matter of "not our fight." There is strong conflict involved as well.

It's been going on for longer than that, especially since WWII with it's large inflow of blacks wanting work in war industries. I can't seem to avoid mentioning that your point about racial tension between blacks and Latinos is one made by CRT.