Was Jesus Actually Perfect?

RDKirk

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Nice hypothesis but that isn't what the text says. Jesus only knew what the Father revealed to Him. That was part of the agreement to be incarnated in the likeness of Adam. If humanly speaking He had an advantage over Adam, He would have not been an appropriate sacrifice. Adam was not omniscient and neither was Jesus's human nature.

I didn't say Jesus was omniscient. I never said that. I said:

"Jesus knew the woman, knew her heart, even knew she would be there that day, just as He had been able to see and know Nathaniel before ever meeting Nathaniel, just as he was able to see and know Zacchaeus before ever meeting Zacchaeus."

Jesus did not start His day in ignorance about what His day would entail. In full communication with the Father through the Spirit, by much prayer and fasting, He started His each day with the knowledge of who He would encounter and what He must do and say. The Father never put Jesus ignorant into any situation.
 
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I didn't say Jesus was omniscient. I never said that. I said:

"Jesus knew the woman, knew her heart, even knew she would be there that day, just as He had been able to see and know Nathaniel before ever meeting Nathaniel, just as he was able to see and know Zacchaeus before ever meeting Zacchaeus."

Jesus did not start His day in ignorance about what His day would entail. In full communication with the Father through the Spirit, by much prayer and fasting, He started His each day with the knowledge of who He would encounter and what He must do and say. The Father never put Jesus ignorant into any situation.

You don't know that though. You have no idea what the Father revealed to Jesus on any given day. You make an assumption that Jesus knew every single day what was going to happen that day. You can't make that assumption based on Scripture.

The text clearly indicates that He was surprised by her answer. The text about the one centurion clearly says that Jesus marveled at what the centurion said to Him.
 
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Running2win

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You don't know that though. You have no idea what the Father revealed to Jesus on any given day. You make an assumption that Jesus knew every single day what was going to happen that day. You can't make that assumption based on Scripture.

The text clearly indicates that He was surprised by her answer. The text about the one centurion clearly says that Jesus marveled at what the centurion said to Him.

The point is He had to rely on the Father in prayer, and everyone agrees that really understands the issue that He limited Himself is certain ways in order to live and die as a man. How much in each category is not known, but if wanted to, He could of did so much more- like call down a bunch of angels, but He did not. :)
 
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BNR32FAN

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I realize that I'm going to have a lot of people angry with me over this one but I don't think He was and let me explain. To me there is a major difference of being perfect and being sinless. It's true that Jesus never disobeyed His parents, but did He always know right from wrong and what His parents expected of Him? I don't think He always knew better and had to be taught right from wrong just like any other child so that He could always do what was right.





Also I don't think that He was perfect in the sense where He never ever made a spelling mistake or forgot where He left one of His carpentry tools as those are classified as sinless mistakes. So in conclusion I believe that Jesus was born entirely sinless,.. but in order to fully know what it's like to be human you also have to fully understand what it's like to be imperfect.

We can’t even debate this because the scriptures don’t address these issues to my knowledge. So why form any decision at all? Why speculate?
 
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Victor in Christ

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Was Jesus Actually Perfect?

Jesus was, his flesh wasn't. If Christ's flesh was perfect how could it be pierced, etc? Christ had to put on the flesh of Adam for our redemption and ultimate salvation into the new heavens and the new earth, which aren't made by hands. a Holy City no man can comprehend, through learning or understanding.

God Bless
 
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Well, we do know that Jesus was tempted and at this point He didn't give into temptation because He knew right from wrong, but He was still tempted anyways. That leads me to believe that He had to be taught right from wrong in the first place to know the things Satan were telling Him to do was wrong,.. because if He always knew better, then why would Satan try tempting Him if he already knew that Jesus couldn't be tempted? Answer,.. He could, He just chose not to give into it.

Well it’s no secret that satan is an idiot. I mean he knew who God is and what He is capable of when he rebelled against him and yet he did it anyway. So his attempt to tempt Jesus was not the stupidest thing he’s done. Just because satan thought he could Jesus could be tempted doesn’t mean He could. satan thinks he will prevail over God but he won’t. Most likely satan didn’t know if Jesus could be tempted or not and that’s why he tried.
 
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Amen the Son is Impeccable just like the Father. They share all the same Divine Attributes.

I think the question could be raised could the human mind possibly contain the knowledge of God? Is it capable of containing that much information? I highly doubt it because we’re talking about infinite knowledge where the mind cannot possibly contain an infinite amount of information which is likely why things were revealed to Christ by The Father on a need to know basis.
 
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Was Jesus Actually Perfect?

Jesus was, his flesh wasn't. If Christ's flesh was perfect how could it be pierced, etc? Christ had to put on the flesh of Adam for our redemption and ultimate salvation into the new heavens and the new earth, which aren't made by hands. a Holy City no man can comprehend, through learning or understanding.

God Bless

Amen atonement for sin must be paid with blood.
 
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Victor in Christ

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Amen atonement for sin must be paid with blood.

Amen...praise to him, he bore the sins of men by taking on the flesh of Adam for us. We're not even worthy of this, but his love for us was so gracious.

 
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Amen...praise to him, he bore the sins of men by taking on the flesh of Adam for us. We're not even worthy of this, but his love for us was so gracious.


PRAISE HIS HOLY NAME!! He endured such hardship, torture, ridicule, and death for us. THANK YOU LORD JESUS CHRIST FOR SACRIFICING YOURSELF FOR ME EVEN THO I AM NOT WORTHY I AM A WRETCH YOUR LOVE COVERED MY SINS NO ONE HAS EVER LOVED SO DEEPLY.
 
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RDKirk

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You don't know that though. You have no idea what the Father revealed to Jesus on any given day. You make an assumption that Jesus knew every single day what was going to happen that day. You can't make that assumption based on Scripture.

Jesus knew what they were thinking and asked, "Why are you thinking these things in your hearts? -- Luke 5:22

But Jesus, on His part, was not entrusting Himself to them, for He knew all men, and because He did not need anyone to testify concerning man, for He Himself knew what was in man.-- John 2
The text clearly indicates that He was surprised by her answer.

Does it? Where?

Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.”

Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”

He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”

The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.

He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”

“Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”

Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.


The text about the one centurion clearly says that Jesus marveled at what the centurion said to Him.

That Jesus "marveled" does not mean the Father had not shown Him what His day would entail. I've had the same experience--having been told explicitly by the Holy Spirit that a certain thing would happen, and then marveling that it did, indeed, happen.
 
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Jesus is YHWH

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I think the question could be raised could the human mind possibly contain the knowledge of God? Is it capable of containing that much information? I highly doubt it because we’re talking about infinite knowledge where the mind cannot possibly contain an infinite amount of information which is likely why things were revealed to Christ by The Father on a need to know basis.
All the FULLNESS of DEITY dwells in bodily form. Col 2:9. Jesus was and is fully God lacking nothing in His Deity. He self limited His divine prerogatives via the Incarnation as per Phil 2. In other words did not use them to His advantage but was in submission to the Father for 33 years to accomplish our salvation.

hope this helps !!!
 
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RDKirk

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I think the question could be raised could the human mind possibly contain the knowledge of God? Is it capable of containing that much information? I highly doubt it because we’re talking about infinite knowledge where the mind cannot possibly contain an infinite amount of information which is likely why things were revealed to Christ by The Father on a need to know basis.

An interesting idea posed by novelist Ann Rice in "Christ the Lord: The Road to Cana" is that there are things that Jesus in His earthly ministry could know that he declined to know because that particular knowledge would not have been necessary for Him to do the work of the Father at that time. Jesus did not ask "idle questions" or seek "idle knowledge."
 
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All the FULLNESS of DEITY dwells in bodily form. Col 2:9. Jesus was and is fully God lacking nothing in His Deity. He self limited His divine prerogatives via the Incarnation as per Phil 2. In other words did not use them to His advantage but was in submission to the Father for 33 years to accomplish our salvation.

hope this helps !!!

what do you make of the term “He emptied Himself”?


“who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.”
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭2:6-7‬ ‭NASB‬‬
 
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what do you make of the term “He emptied Himself”?


“who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.”
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭2:6-7‬ ‭NASB‬‬
the kenosis is that He did not use His Divine privileges but laid them aside in obedience as a servant. He came to serve and not be served. ( Matt 20:28).
 
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the kenosis is that He did not use His Divine privileges but laid them aside in obedience as a servant. He came to serve and not be served. ( Matt 20:28).

He served by being obedient to the man made 'laws' of his age. Something we can never do, its impossible to obey those 'laws' christ had to obey and its impossible to obey them today and in the future. They are man made. Yet, he endured them, went further and offered himself as the only sacrifical lamb (Leviticus 16) for all our sins, so we might obtain eternal life through him.

Christ didn't want to be known or recognised as a sacrifical lamb, he endured it for our sins, went through all that hardship to give US life.

Do you think we all have to go through the same form of suffering to be like Christ or to be in union with him?

Nonscence, he suffered to give us life and to witness for him on earth bringing in his remnant who we don't know until we meet with them and our King in heaven.


God Bless
 
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If a baby is legitimately hungry then no it isn't manipulative. Otherwise though, babies routinely cry in order to manipulate their mother. I've had 4 kids, I've watched it with all of them. It's total depravity at work.

And babies who's cries their caretakers don't respond to will withdraw and if the neglect is severe enough; they will die of what's called "failure to thrive". Is "failure to thrive" a result of the infant's sin?

All children raised in institutional setting have "trust" and attachment issues. Children who grow up in environments where they aren't securely attached to a care giver, have social and relational problems their entire lives. That is a totally separate issue from morality. There are a lot of people who are externally quite moral; yet very broken on the inside.

They can change "attachment disorders" later in life, but it takes effort and determination to overcome "mental tapes" of what they think about themselves and relationships. If they don't overcome the issues; they will be emotionally dysfunctional and forever perpetuate destructive relationships either as a narcissistic "abuser" or a depressed / anxious "victim".

Third category (besides recovered individuals) are people who are "security attached" because they learned from their caregivers how to get their emotional needs met in an honest and healthy way.

I grew up in the kind of home psychiatrists read about in their text books. My mother was an alcoholic and my brother is a pedophile. I endured a lot of sexual abuse and neglect.

But for the grace of God, my dad was a decent person. He actually wanted to divorce mom and take his daughters; but because it was the 1970's, the lawyer told him he'd never get custody of us. (Which was true.) So dad stayed and did his best to try and make sure we got at least one meal a day.

It was a complicated household. There were a lot of things dad tried to get us help, (and a lot of things dad did, or didn't do out of fear) but he couldn't change the outcome ultimately. Mom died of lung cancer at 57 years old and dad died of (basically) the brokenness of life 4 after mom.

My mother certainly wasn't a believer. I don't know if my dad came to repentance just before he died or not? I didn't get to see him before he actually died because my husband would not call in sick to watch our son. When I finally got a hold of my cousin who could watch him; dad was pretty much already brain dead. I hope I'll see dad "on the light side" of eternity. What ever his outcome was though; God is still God! My mother most likely is condemned for her sin; but again - God is still God!

I became a believer at 17 years old; but it still took 30 years of counseling to "repair" the damage that had been done. I was also in the military and did clean up after Desert Storm. In 2010, I survived a catastrophic car accident that left me permanently mobility impaired. After 2 affairs, my former husband committed suicide in 2017. I have a young adult son who has autism and epilepsy. I clearly have PTSD. I've learned through much assistance over the past 30 years how to manage it. There have been several occasions (one literally) that God prevented me from killing myself.

Life as a sinner in a sinful world is extremely challenging.

My husband also believed that our son did things to "intentionally manipulate" me. I learned a lot from the people in the developmental disabilities field who worked with him, of what it actually means to "be a child". Kids aren't mini adults. They are psychologically different that adults because their brains are immature.

Infants cry because they need something either physically, emotionally or spiritually. If they can't be soothed by caregiver attention; then something is most likely physically wrong. (They call it "colic".) Medical professionals don't know why some babies get it. They think it has something to do with their immature digestive tracts (they are actually in pain) and the only thing they "know" to do about it is scream.

There were days my son would cry until he literally "passed out" from exhaustion. Nothing I did seemed to help. Feed him, change his diaper, put him in his swing, move his arms and legs, roll him around on the floor. He was clearly uncomfortable and had no means of telling anyone what was wrong; so he'd scream... for hours.

Took him to the doctor, took him to specialists. He still screamed for hours. They knew something wasn't developmentally right (at a year old he still couldn't sit independently) they didn't know what it was. He was diagnosed as having "global developmental delays" and eventually given quite an extensive regimen of therapy services (special education, occupational therapy, physical therapy and speech therapy). At about 3 years old, he was diagnosed with epilepsy. Later, he was also diagnosed with autism.

Today after being in special education his entire life and getting all sorts of services out side of school, as well as being deemed "disabled" by governmental authorities; he has become a believer too. He thinks a lot about God and life. He loves Jesus, loves mom and cares about his Internet gamer community friends. He's part of at least one Christian gamer group. His Internet gamer friends have helped him through things he didn't feel like he wanted to talk to mom about. His dad's suicide was hard on him because the relationship was fractured to begin with.

Yet, he's a thoughtful intelligent young man with a strong faith and an amount of spiritual insight that amazes me, especially considering his challenges. He will talk about some rather complex issues of faith;..... but he can't shave himself. He can't remember things, he gets confused, still has difficulty understanding things (processing speech) and still can't manage a lot of daily life tasks without assistance.

Although he exhibited a lot of difficult behavioral challenges in school and might still tell me he doesn't want to take a shower; he's "grown" a pretty obedient "kid" and there's not a whole lot of conflict in this house hold.

He's matured a lot; especially after being removed from the brick and mortar school system. He still doesn't like to leave the house much and especially now with "Rona" he doesn't like wearing a mask; but he'll do it. He had 3 things he did in the past two weeks where he left the house for something other than a doctor's appointment or a blood draw. He went to his cousin's graduation party. He went to church and he went furniture shopping with me. He picked out a really nice couch.

So, he's considering things he wants to try to see if he can earn some money. Due to the level of confusion and attention issues; he can't hold down a job in the conventional work force. He will probably end up in a supervised employment setting. (Like a sheltered workshop.) He will be the responsibility of his public school district until he's 21 because he's not capable of getting a high school diploma. Obviously he's not going to college. He can't drive. He can't take public transit independently. He will need some sort of assistance his entire life. He's currently a "special education student on home instruction" as a placement. He has two tutors; one for math and one for English and his "curriculum" is self directed. He's happy with this arrangement and for the past 3 years; (he was a homeschool student for two years; being taught by a tutors I hired) he's actually learned somethings.

I tell you these things because my son has been a valuable lesson to me that our behavior isn't always driven by sin. Sin is a factor; but it isn't the only factor that drives behavior.

"Total depravity" as a theological concept, does not mean "depraved totally". It simply means that we are completely separated from God because of both the fall and our own sin. Without the Holy Spirit making us alive; we don't want God on God's terms and we won't believe. "Our" faith is actually a work of God.

And my developmentally disabled 18 year old son (who can't even physically look after himself) understands that. That's pretty profound!

Salvation is of the Lord!
 
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Jesus knew what they were thinking and asked, "Why are you thinking these things in your hearts? -- Luke 5:22

This is because that information was revealed to Him from the Father; but you can not extrapolate based on this verse that this was the case with everyone Jesus encountered.

Jesus was not a mind reader; but He certainly had enough intuition to know base on what He understood about human thought process; His experiences with what sinners are like, to be able to read the expressions on their faces / their body language.

We all have some capacity to do this; it's not rocket science.

Note Jesus says: "Why are you thinking these things in your heart?" This is not an expression of "I know what specific thoughts are going on in your head."

It's also clear from Scripture that there were things Jesus prayed to know that the Father didn't reveal to Him prior to death. One of those things was when exactly was the end of time and His second coming. Now how ironic is that which the Father doesn't reveal to the Son in His humanity when He will return?

But Jesus, on His part, was not entrusting Himself to them, for He knew all men, and because He did not need anyone to testify concerning man, for He Himself knew what was in man.-- John 2

The second part of this verse explains the first. He entrusted Himself to no one because He knew all were sinners. This does not mean that Jesus in the flesh had intimate knowledge of everyone's thoughts. He knew what was revealed and that's what He was sure of.

Does it? Where?

Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.”

Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”

He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”

The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.

He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”

“Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”

Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.

Matthew 15:26 - Look at this verse in the Greek. It indicates that the person responding had to think about the response; not that they knew automatically that they'd planned out what they were going to say.

That Jesus "marveled" does not mean the Father had not shown Him what His day would entail. I've had the same experience--having been told explicitly by the Holy Spirit that a certain thing would happen, and then marveling that it did, indeed, happen.

Frankly I don't believe you; because of what the Scripture itself says of the closing of the canon. While the Scripture was still being written; God gave certain individuals specific instruction for the purpose of the unfolding of the salvation plan. This is why OT prophets received visions and dreams.

Hebrews 1:
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

The testimony of God we receive today comes through the Scripture. God does not give us "special insight" so that we know "specifics" of what's going on in the world.

2 Peter 1:
14 Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.

(Jesus told Peter before Jesus ascended that in essence; Peter would be put to death by execution. (Implied crucifixion.) This goes back to Peter saying he'd die with Jesus and than running away when confronted by a little girl over whether or not Peter knew Jesus.)

Here's the passage where Jesus tells Peter how he will die:
John 21:
17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

18 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdest thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.

19 This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.

(Rest of 1 Peter 1)
15 Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.

16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.

19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Everything that God reveled prophetically was about the death burial and resurrection of Christ. This is why the Scripture was written. This is why we have the Scripture.

The Son speaks to us through the Scripture.
 
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Can I ask you where you came up with this idea ?

Any bible verse to support it ?

i'll have to dig really deep into scripture to convince you, but I'm 100% positive Christ didn't come to be known by men in a literal sense as some might believe. He came to give us life not to be known as a sacrifical lamb in the literal sense or admired by people in a literal sense. Christ's sacrifice was and is still spiritual.

we can be too focused on Christ literally in our lives we can loose the reason he suffered and died for our sins. it was for our sins, not for him to be idolised, etc. He came to Earth to redeem us, not to glorify himself, its why we must glorify his work at calvary, not his person.

god bless, i've gto earthly tasks to do here, i'll get back.
 
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