Was Jesus Actually Perfect?

[Running2win]

We don’t have any record of Jesus making a mistake that we can be clear definitely is one. So it's purely speculative.

I agree!

 

[Kenny'sID]

God does not consider us perfect.. We need to be covered in the blood in order to be seen righteous.

Not so fast.

◄ Matthew 5:48 ►
New International Version
Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

If we are told by Christ to be perfect, then being perfect must be doable, meaning, yes, God does and will consider us perfect if we do as he expects of us.

 

[Running2win]

I'm only saying it's possible. Like I said before a toddler who doesn't understand the difference between right and wrong can't possibly sin and has to be taught before they can choose to do right which there's no denying that obviously Jesus always did.

Yes, they can. But they are not held accountable, IMO- or it might be better to say they are under the grace and mercy of God until the are old enough to understand.

Eve was innocent and not fully understanding the implications of her sin, but still sinned, and was held accountable. Adam on the other hand, understood full well what he was doing when he followed Eve into transgression, even blamed God for giving him the woman! Sin is still sin. Sin comes from wanting something forbidden, and then committing the action. Just like David and Bathsheba.

Jesus would of never of wanted something forbidden, this comes from evil desire. If we are talking don't touch the fire, Hot! And things like this, this is all part of growing up and learning. But you would not have to tell Him twice. He was the model Child.

James 1,

13When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. 15Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.
1st, Tim 2,

13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.

Gen 3,

6When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

8Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the Lord God among the trees of the garden. 9But the Lord God called to the man, “Where are you?”

10He answered, “I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid.”

11And he said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?”

12The man said, “The woman you put here with me—she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it.”

13Then the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?”

The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”

14So the Lord God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this,

“Cursed are you above all livestock

and all wild animals!

You will crawl on your belly

and you will eat dust

all the days of your life.

15And I will put enmity

between you and the woman,

and between your offspring a and hers;

he will crush b your head,

and you will strike his heel.”

16To the woman he said,

“I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;

with painful labor you will give birth to children.

Your desire will be for your husband,

and he will rule over you.”

17To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’

“Cursed is the ground because of you;

through painful toil you will eat food from it

all the days of your life.

18It will produce thorns and thistles for you,

and you will eat the plants of the field.

19By the sweat of your brow

you will eat your food

until you return to the ground,

since from it you were taken;

for dust you are

and to dust you will return.”

 

[Running2win]

Not so fast.

◄ Matthew 5:48 ►
New International Version
Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

If we are told by Christ to be perfect, then being perfect must be doable, meaning, yes, God does and will consider us perfect if we do as he expects of us.

Well Rose, you got your next Post!

 

[1213]

... but in order to fully know what it's like to be human you also have to fully understand what it's like to be imperfect.

And obviously, perfect person can imagine what it means, without himself being imperfect. I think Jesus is great, but he himself said:

"Why do you call me good? No one is good, except one-God.
Luke 18:19

 

[Running2win]

And obviously, perfect person can imagine what it means, without himself being imperfect. I think Jesus is great, but he himself said:

"Why do you call me good? No one is good, except one-God.
Luke 18:19

I like that Jesus was humble and not a braggart.

 

[JacksBratt]

Not so fast.

◄ Matthew 5:48 ►
New International Version
Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

If we are told by Christ to be perfect, then being perfect must be doable, meaning, yes, God does and will consider us perfect if we do as he expects of us.

It is doable... Christ, fully God, fully human... did it.

None of us will. However, it is my goal to be better every day....

God will be our judge... Satan will be our accuser... Christ will be our defense.

Satan will say " this lowly human is a sinner".. and he will be right.

Christ will say "I stand for this human and they are covered by My blood as they had Faith in My work on the cross"

God... will see us as white as snow.. "Righteous in His sight".

 

[Redwingfan9]

I realize that I'm going to have a lot of people angry with me over this one but I don't think He was and let me explain. To me there is a major difference of being perfect and being sinless. It's true that Jesus never disobeyed His parents, but did He always know right from wrong and what His parents expected of Him? I don't think He always knew better and had to be taught right from wrong just like any other child so that He could always do what was right.





Also I don't think that He was perfect in the sense where He never ever made a spelling mistake or forgot where He left one of His carpentry tools as those are classified as sinless mistakes. So in conclusion I believe that Jesus was born entirely sinless,.. but in order to fully know what it's like to be human you also have to fully understand what it's like to be imperfect.

Jesus never erred and always knew what was expected of him. He never manipulated his mother with a cry, he never ate or drank more than he needed, he never disobeyed a lawful command. Everything about him was perfect, right down to his carpentry work.

 

[Cis.jd]

It depends on what you mean by right or wrong. Luke 2:52 says he grew in wisdom.

I think it's part of being human, which Jesus was, despite being divine. He did lower himself to below the Angels and took the sacrifice to be us. So I guess that his brain did have certain forms of development by age. It's a complex theology.

 

[Kenny'sID]

None of us will. However, it is my goal to be better every day....

I disagree.

If Christ says it can be done, and he even expects it, then to be a mature Christian, means we are perfect. And to say we will never attain what Christ clearly states we can...well, I'm not sure how you draw such a conclusion when there is such scriptural evidence.

The term is Christs, not mine, the Bible/Christ states it, and I believe it.

One more time:

◄ Matthew 5:48 ►
New International Version
Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Christ would not tell us to be that, if we could not be that. To do so would make it a foolish comment and Christ is not foolish.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

I disagree.

If Christ says it can be done, and he even expects it, then to be a mature Christian, means we are perfect. And to say we will never attain what Christ clearly states we can...well, I'm not sure how you draw such a conclusion when there is such scriptural evidence.

The term is Christs, not mine, the Bible/Christ states it, and I believe it.

One more time:



Christ would not tell us to be that, if we could not be that.

does that mean we can reach a point on this earth where we can live a sinless life ?

 

[Paul4JC]

I realize that I'm going to have a lot of people angry with me over this one but I don't think He was and let me explain. To me there is a major difference of being perfect and being sinless. It's true that Jesus never disobeyed His parents, but did He always know right from wrong and what His parents expected of Him? I don't think He always knew better and had to be taught right from wrong just like any other child so that He could always do what was right.





Also I don't think that He was perfect in the sense where He never ever made a spelling mistake or forgot where He left one of His carpentry tools as those are classified as sinless mistakes. So in conclusion I believe that Jesus was born entirely sinless,.. but in order to fully know what it's like to be human you also have to fully understand what it's like to be imperfect.

I like what your saying here. Only difference I might have used human instead of perfect in your title. Many went of in the sinless perfection tangent, which is elementary Christology, and that is not your point as I understood it. I think we will be studying in amazement through eternity, how the incarnate deity, was a baby, a toddler, a boy, a teenager, a man. I think he did more than just get baptized, to "fulfill all righteousness", every breathing hour of his time on earth. Much of this we don't have revelation on.

Along your lines, did Jesus measure and cut everything perfectly in his dads carpenter shop? Did he make priceless relics with his wood, or just ordinary tables, and chairs and stuff? No there was no Jesus brand to capitalize on. How amazing it is think that he blended into the ordinary and mundane.

So even though he was already perfect, he had to actually live it out and become perfect.

[Heb 5:8-9 NIV] 8 Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him

[Phl 2:8 NIV] 8a And being found in appearance as a man,

[1Ti 3:16 NIV] 16a Beyond all question, the mystery from which true godliness springs is great:

[Mat 3:15 NIV] 15 Jesus replied, "Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness." Then John consented.

 

[April_Rose]

Jesus never erred and always knew what was expected of him. He never manipulated his mother with a cry, he never ate or drank more than he needed, he never disobeyed a lawful command. Everything about him was perfect, right down to his carpentry work.

Actually sorry but I definitely disagree with you on that one. The shortest verse in the Bible is Jesus wept. So if He wept as a man, then He definitely wept as an infant and small child. Crying in itself is not a sin. He didn't have temper tantrums but He still showed emotions just like everybody else. That's just a part of being human. John 11:35

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Actually sorry but I definitely disagree with you on that one. The shortest verse in the Bible is Jesus wept. So if He wept as a man, then He definitely wept as an infant and small child. Crying in itself is not a sin. He didn't have temper tantrums but He still showed emotions just like everybody else. That's just a part of being human. John 11:35

so emotions are imperfect ?

to feel love is imperfect ?

to weep with those who weep(a command) is imperfect ?

Why would Jesus command us to weep with those who weep if thats imperfect ?

 

[April_Rose]

so emotions are imperfect ?

to feel love is imperfect ?

to weep with those who weep(a command) is imperfect ?

Why would Jesus command us to weep with those who weep if thats imperfect ?

No, didn't you read what I just said? I never said any of those things were imperfect.

 

[Kenny'sID]

does that mean we can reach a point on this earth where we can live a sinless life ?

You'll have to ask Jesus that, or how he views the term "perfect". As to what is means, it's exactly like I just said, like the bible says.

Are you saying Jesus doesn't expect us to be perfect? Do you think perfect means sinless?

 

[Redwingfan9]

Actually sorry but I definitely disagree with you on that one. The shortest verse in the Bible is Jesus wept. So if He wept as a man, then He definitely wept as an infant and small child. Crying in itself is not a sin. He didn't have temper tantrums but He still showed emotions just like everybody else. That's just a part of being human. John 11:35

I didn't say Jesus didn't cry as a child. I said he did not manipulate his parents with his crying. Believe me, there's a massive difference between the two.

 

[April_Rose]

I didn't say Jesus didn't cry as a child. I said he did not manipulate his parents with his crying. Believe me, there's a massive difference between the two.

Well wouldn't His crying for food and to be changed as an infant be considered manipulative or not? Cause He probably got what He wanted in the end. And yes Jesus cried as a baby. All babies cry. That song "Away In A Manger" is referring to when He wasn't crying at that particular time.

 

[April_Rose]

You'll have to ask Jesus that, or how he views the term "perfect". As to what is means, it's exactly like I just said, like the bible says.

Are you saying Jesus doesn't expect us to be perfect? Do you think perfect means sinless?

Btw, that's what this whole entire thread is about. Whether or not the words perfect and sinless are the exact same thing and if Jesus was both.

 

[renniks]

Agreed, but why would He get sick? He could just heal Himself.

See, I don't see Jesus operating this way in scripture. I don't believe he was above everything. How could he truly carry all our burdens if he could not even get a stomach ache or a cold? The kind of lofty view of Jesus almost floating through life with no aches or pain or scraped knuckles doesn't fit with the son of man title he is given. I believe he got hurt like any child, and cried when he burned his finger or hit it with a hammer. I believe he suffered in every way as we do, mentally, emotionally and physically and spiritually. And that's how he can identify with us.