Was Jesus Actually Perfect?

[April_Rose]

I realize that I'm going to have a lot of people angry with me over this one but I don't think He was and let me explain. To me there is a major difference of being perfect and being sinless. It's true that Jesus never disobeyed His parents, but did He always know right from wrong and what His parents expected of Him? I don't think He always knew better and had to be taught right from wrong just like any other child so that He could always do what was right.





Also I don't think that He was perfect in the sense where He never ever made a spelling mistake or forgot where He left one of His carpentry tools as those are classified as sinless mistakes. So in conclusion I believe that Jesus was born entirely sinless,.. but in order to fully know what it's like to be human you also have to fully understand what it's like to be imperfect.

 

[d taylor]

Jesus was the ultimate prodigy

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Yes

Like Father,like Son. Whatever attributes the Father has so does the Son. Is the Father perfect ?

Heb 1:3
He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power.

Col 1:15-19
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. 19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell,

Col 2:8-9
See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,

 

[April_Rose]

Jesus was the ultimate prodigy

Oh I was never doubting that. I was just wondering if He always knew right from wrong and was perfect in the sense of not even making sinless mistakes. And not knowing right from wrong isn't really sinning, because you have to know you're sinning in order to do it.

 

[d taylor]

Oh I was never doubting that. I was just wondering if He always knew right from wrong and was perfect in the sense of not even making sinless mistakes. And not knowing right from wrong isn't really sinning, because you have to know you're sinning in order to do it.

Where did you get that idea that you have to know that you are sinning for it to be a sin.

 

[April_Rose]

Where did you get that idea that you have to know that you are sinning for it to be a sin.

Because it's just a known fact. To be a sinner you purposely do wrong. Innocent little children don't know any better because they haven't been taught right from wrong yet so how can they be "sinning?"

 

[mlepfitjw]

Rose, it seems only one could speculate.

Was there a point in time where we could see and look at Yeshua in times while he was out healing, teaching, and traveling through out the country that he wound up seeing lots of people.

That it would be possible if Yesuha/Jesus laughed, forgot, remembered, thoughts, temptation, fear, doubt, frustration, anger, sadness, glum, cried, cared, loved, desired for restoration for all persons because He was a human like you, your family, and friends are human with and having social interactions with each other with many people of all different types of people while he was ministering this earth?

 

[April_Rose]

Rose, it seems only one could speculate.

Was there a point in time where we could see and look at Yeshua in times while he was out healing, teaching, and traveling through out the country that he wound up seeing lots of people.

That it would be possible if Yesuha/Jesus laughed, forgot, remembered, thoughts, temptation, fear, doubt, frustration, anger, sadness, glum, cried, cared, loved, desired for restoration for all persons because He was a human like you, your family, and friends are human with and having social interactions with each other with many people of all different types of people while he was ministering this earth?

Well, we do know that Jesus was tempted and at this point He didn't give into temptation because He knew right from wrong, but He was still tempted anyways. That leads me to believe that He had to be taught right from wrong in the first place to know the things Satan were telling Him to do was wrong,.. because if He always knew better, then why would Satan try tempting Him if he already knew that Jesus couldn't be tempted? Answer,.. He could, He just chose not to give into it.

 

[The Righterzpen]

I realize that I'm going to have a lot of people angry with me over this one but I don't think He was and let me explain. To me there is a major difference of being perfect and being sinless. It's true that Jesus never disobeyed His parents, but did He always know right from wrong and what His parents expected of Him? I don't think He always knew better and had to be taught right from wrong just like any other child so that He could always do what was right.

Also I don't think that He was perfect in the sense where He never ever made a spelling mistake or forgot where He left one of His carpentry tools as those are classified as sinless mistakes. So in conclusion I believe that Jesus was born entirely sinless,.. but in order to fully know what it's like to be human you also have to fully understand what it's like to be imperfect.

Well, to answer your question; there's an interesting passage in the Bible about Jesus and a woman of Canaan (Matthew 15:21-28 There is a similar story in Mark 7.)

Now the interesting phrase here is "Jesus answered and said...." The Greek here indicates that her response made Him have to stand back a moment and think about what she said. The implication is that the response caught Him by surprise.

In both these accounts these are gentile women totally outside the Jewish culture, religious system and with no intent on becoming proselytes. Now Jesus makes a comment about giving the children's food to the dogs and she comes back with "even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall of the Master's table." And He's so taken aback by her come back that He has to stand there and think about it a minute. This was not something He'd expected to come out of this totally gentile woman.

Was Jesus "suffering" from a bit of Jewish ethnocentric culture shock? Maybe in a certain sense because most of the learned Jewish leaders were blaspheming the Holy Spirit and the disciples weren't all exactly the sharpest tools in the shed. If the Jews who had all this information and still couldn't "get it right"; how's this gentile going to know? Yet here she was. Her answer stumped Him. Yet He didn't fall back on "identity politics".

So here is an example where omniscience in the flesh of the humanity of Jesus was not present. He'd made an incorrect assumption base on who He was looking at.

We see a similar thing with one of the Roman centurions. The soldier says: "I have men under my command and I say do this, or do that and they do it. So I know if you just give the command my servant would be healed." To this the Scripture says Jesus marveled.

So did Jesus "make mistakes"? In that regard, yes He did. He was only operating upon the knowledge of what the Father had revealed.

Now I know this is going to sound strange; but Jesus's Divine nature was omniscient but his human nature was not. Well why didn't the Divine just inform the human? (In so instances that happened.) Yet Jesus still contended with the un-surety of life.

Which of course your question raises the prospect of what does "perfection" really mean. It is a legitimate question; and one that doesn't have a simple answer, I'm afraid.

 

[April_Rose]

Well, to answer your question; there's an interesting passage in the Bible about Jesus and a woman of Canaan (Matthew 15:21-28 There is a similar story in Mark 7.)

Now the interesting phrase here is "Jesus answered and said...." The Greek here indicates that her response made Him have to stand back a moment and think about what she said. The implication is that the response caught Him by surprise.

In both these accounts these are gentile women totally outside the Jewish culture, religious system and with no intent on becoming proselytes. Now Jesus makes a comment about giving the children's food to the dogs and she comes back with "even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall of the Master's table." And He's so taken aback by her come back that He has to stand there and think about it a minute. This was not something He'd expected to come out of this totally gentile woman.

Was Jesus "suffering" from a bit of Jewish ethnocentric culture shock? Maybe in a certain sense because most of the learned Jewish leaders were blaspheming the Holy Spirit and the disciples weren't all exactly the sharpest tools in the shed. If the Jews who had all this information and still couldn't "get it right"; how's this gentile going to know? Yet here she was. Her answer stumped Him. Yet He didn't fall back on "identity politics".

So here is an example where omniscience in the flesh of the humanity of Jesus was not present. He'd made an incorrect assumption base on who He was looking at.

We see a similar thing with one of the Roman centurions. The soldier says: "I have men under my command and I say do this, or do that and they do it. So I know if you just give the command my servant would be healed." To this the Scripture says Jesus marveled.

So did Jesus "make mistakes"? In that regard, yes He did. He was only operating upon the knowledge of what the Father had revealed.

Now I know this is going to sound strange; but Jesus's Divine nature was omniscient but his human nature was not. Well why didn't the Divine just inform the human? (In so instances that happened.) Yet Jesus still contended with the un-surety of life.

Which of course your question raises the prospect of what does "perfection" really mean. It is a legitimate question; and one that doesn't have a simple answer, I'm afraid.

I didn't understand your response too much but I do believe that Jesus being perfect just meant that He was perfectly righteous and holy,.. not perfect in the sense where He didn't make any goofs.

 

[Under One King]

While Jesus was sinless, he was also human. I believe in a sense he was perfect, in another sense not. For example, human nature is sinful. Jesus was perfect in that regard. He was tempted with all the same things we are, but he never gave into that temptation. But humans also have physical problems and such, and in that regards I don't think he was perfect. He got sick, he probably smashed his thumb, he may have made a mistake at math. It's all speculation, that is just my opinion. I think he probably had to learn right from wrong as a child. I don't know how it would have played out, and I could be wrong, that just seems plausible to me.

 

[April_Rose]

While Jesus was sinless, he was also human. I believe in a sense he was perfect, in another sense not. For example, human nature is sinful. Jesus was perfect in that regard. He was tempted with all the same things we are, but he never gave into that temptation. But humans also have physical problems and such, and in that regards I don't think he was perfect. He got sick, he probably smashed his thumb, he may have made a mistake at math. It's all speculation, that is just my opinion. I think he probably had to learn right from wrong as a child. I don't know how it would have played out, and I could be wrong, that just seems plausible to me.

Agreed, but why would He get sick? He could just heal Himself.

 

[d taylor]

Because it's just a known fact. To be a sinner you purposely do wrong. Innocent little children don't know any better because they haven't been taught right from wrong yet so how can they be "sinning?"

A person is born a sinner, you can not help but sin.

 

[Under One King]

Agreed, but why would He get sick? He could just heal Himself.

Probably to sympathize with our human weaknesses. It might have been kind of like his death. He could have asked and God would have sent legions of angels to save him, but he chose not to. I know his death was far more important than him getting sick, I just use that as an example.

 

[April_Rose]

A person is born a sinner, you can not help but sin.

So then does that automatically make a newborn baby a sinner?

 

[d taylor]

So then does that automatically make a newborn baby a sinner?

Yes, why do think Jesus had to be born of a virgin, so he would not have a sin nature from Adam.

 

[Under One King]

So then does that automatically make a newborn baby a sinner?

No. They cannot distinguish right from wrong (obviously). That is why Jesus said that the kingdom of heaven belongs to children. They are innocent; they don't understand what sin is and how it separates you from God. The age they do is different for every person.

 

[April_Rose]

Yes, why do think Jesus had to be born of a virgin, so he would not have a sin nature from Adam.

So how is a newborn baby sinner even when he or she hasn't done any wrong yet? And what do you mean that Jesus would not get a sin nature from Adam? Why does being born of a virgin have anything to do with it? Sex is not a sin in itself, fornication is. So had God not have chosen Mary I don't think the virgin status would have mattered.

 

[April_Rose]

No. They cannot distinguish right from wrong (obviously). That is why Jesus said that the kingdom of heaven belongs to children. They are innocent; they don't understand what sin is and how it separates you from God. The age they do is different for every person.

Exactly and that's my point. Even if Jesus did wrong as a little child that doesn't make Him a sinner.

 

[Tra Phull]

I think Jesus was being sarcastic to the Syro-Phoenician woman about "dogs" and she came back to it in a way that He liked. I don't think He was "stumped" by her response, He was the one that started the sarcasm.

Some people say "Jesus lost His temper" when He threw moneychangers out of the Temple and turned tables over. Naww, He didn't lose His temper - He deliberately bought some cords and made a whip, a calculated maneuver.

It bothers some that He cursed a fig tree. Big deal.

He "grew in stature and wisdom" so He went from less wisdom to more wisdom. Was he DISOBEDIENT at age 12 when He stayed at the Temple and Joseph and Mary lost Him?
Not really, He was about His Father's business.

I'd say He was perfect.