Was Jesus Actually Perfect?

Running2win

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Alright, so I understand where you stand with that, but that still doesn't answer the question why Jesus had to of been born of a virgin.

Yeah, He had to bypass the sin nature that is passed on from every human in the lineage of Adam. This is called original Sin, or original corruption. In Adam all die, but in Christ all shall be made alive. He had to be the spotless sacrifice (lamb), without blemish, so therefore the virgin birth by the Holy Spirit. He had no sin nature (as a man) so He would never want to sin, and His body would be the perfect sacrifice. You see? He could be tempted, but it was not in his nature to sin. Plus He was God too, and God cannot be tempted by evil. Meaning the lust to do evil comes from within and that is not in the character of God. (James 1:13)

We sin because we are born sinners, and then we chose to sin when we are old enough and held accountable for sin. I mean, we do not have to teach children to do bad things, right? We all gravitate toward the bad and being rebellious-and some more than others. :) So even children are sinners by birth and when they become accountable for their actions, they choose to sin. So we are all guilty before God, even if we did not sin in the same way Adam did. Adam was mankind's representative, and also sin is passed on through procreation. (Romans 3-5) This is what Scripture teaches.

God starting teaching us in the garden of Eden that an innocent animal had to die and shed it's blood in order to "cover" or sin and shame. This continued on with the animal sacrifices of Israel, and finally to Jesus, the perfect, without blemish, Lamb of God, that was sent to take away the sins of the world(those who would believe in him).

So that is the "why". :oldthumbsup:

1st Cor 15,

20But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 21For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive

Is 53,

6All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.

7He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth;

Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
So He did not open His mouth.

Ps 51,

1Be gracious to me, O God, according to Your lovingkindness;
According to the greatness of Your compassion blot out my transgressions.

2Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity
And cleanse me from my sin.

3For I know my transgressions,
And my sin is ever before me.

4Against You, You only, I have sinned
And done what is evil in Your sight,
So that You are justified when You speak
And blameless when You judge.

5Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me.

6Behold, You desire truth in the innermost being,
And in the hidden part You will make me know wisdom.
 
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RDKirk

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Well, to answer your question; there's an interesting passage in the Bible about Jesus and a woman of Canaan (Matthew 15:21-28 There is a similar story in Mark 7.)

Now the interesting phrase here is "Jesus answered and said...." The Greek here indicates that her response made Him have to stand back a moment and think about what she said. The implication is that the response caught Him by surprise.

In both these accounts these are gentile women totally outside the Jewish culture, religious system and with no intent on becoming proselytes. Now Jesus makes a comment about giving the children's food to the dogs and she comes back with "even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall of the Master's table." And He's so taken aback by her come back that He has to stand there and think about it a minute. This was not something He'd expected to come out of this totally gentile woman.

Was Jesus "suffering" from a bit of Jewish ethnocentric culture shock? Maybe in a certain sense because most of the learned Jewish leaders were blaspheming the Holy Spirit and the disciples weren't all exactly the sharpest tools in the shed. If the Jews who had all this information and still couldn't "get it right"; how's this gentile going to know? Yet here she was. Her answer stumped Him. Yet He didn't fall back on "identity politics".

So here is an example where omniscience in the flesh of the humanity of Jesus was not present. He'd made an incorrect assumption base on who He was looking at.

We see a similar thing with one of the Roman centurions. The soldier says: "I have men under my command and I say do this, or do that and they do it. So I know if you just give the command my servant would be healed." To this the Scripture says Jesus marveled.

So did Jesus "make mistakes"? In that regard, yes He did. He was only operating upon the knowledge of what the Father had revealed.

Now I know this is going to sound strange; but Jesus's Divine nature was omniscient but his human nature was not. Well why didn't the Divine just inform the human? (In so instances that happened.) Yet Jesus still contended with the un-surety of life.

Which of course your question raises the prospect of what does "perfection" really mean. It is a legitimate question; and one that doesn't have a simple answer, I'm afraid.

Not really.

Jesus knew the woman, knew her heart, even knew she would be there that day, just as He had been able to see and know Nathaniel before ever meeting Nathaniel, just as he was able to see and know Zaccheus before ever meeting Zaccheus.

He also knew His audience. He made the initial response His audience expected, an response based on the Mosaic Law. I imagine that all of them nodded in agreement as He initially pointed out the old requirement of being in the bloodline of Abraham.

Then He turned it around. This is one of the critical points where Jesus establishes that it is faith in Him that saves, and not the Abrahamic blood line or the Mosaic Law.
 
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Jesus is YHWH

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One thing to notice is that Jesus could not sin even if he did what we call sin. He is God and God cannot sin.
Amen the Son is Impeccable just like the Father. They share all the same Divine Attributes.
 
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RDKirk

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Isaiah wrote/prophesied of a boy to be born in his time, of an ALMA - a young woman, a Hebrew word neither denoting virginity nor non-virginity...
The Hebrew is later translated into Greek Septuagint.
PARTHENOS is used, an actual virgin, to conceive, and the name of the child is to be called wonderful, counselor, THE MIGHTY GOD, THE EVERLASTING FATHER, THE PRINCE OF PEACE

Yes, and we have to remember that the Septuagint was translated a couple of hundred years before Christ by Jews who were well-acquainted with both languages and the meanings of both words for their times. "Virgin" is not merely some modern Christian interpretation of "alma."

While the Hebrew word does not inherently denote either virginity or non-virginity, the common usage of the term in context and time must also be considered. Is the woman being spoken of as a righteous "young woman" or as a harlot?
 
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com7fy8

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in order to fully know what it's like to be human you also have to fully understand what it's like to be imperfect.
Yes, Jesus came in human form so He could go through things we go through in this life >

"For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin." (Hebrews 4:15)

Jesus has gone through things of this life, so that now Jesus our Groom can feel for us, out of His own experience, and minister to us His grace which had Him doing so well in any and all nicer or hard things.

So, yes Jesus was perfect for all God wanted to do with Him.
 
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Kenny'sID

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Actually, it is quite clear. Christ was without blemish...or.. "perfect".. and ... justifiable for the sacrifices of sin... He was perfect:
1 Peter 1:19

King James Version


19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

Agree.

Perfect in the sense God considers us perfect, and that's what matters.
 
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JacksBratt

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Agree.

Perfect in the sense God considers us perfect, and that's what matters.
God does not consider us perfect.. We need to be covered in the blood in order to be seen righteous.
 
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eleos1954

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I realize that I'm going to have a lot of people angry with me over this one but I don't think He was and let me explain. To me there is a major difference of being perfect and being sinless. It's true that Jesus never disobeyed His parents, but did He always know right from wrong and what His parents expected of Him? I don't think He always knew better and had to be taught right from wrong just like any other child so that He could always do what was right.





Also I don't think that He was perfect in the sense where He never ever made a spelling mistake or forgot where He left one of His carpentry tools as those are classified as sinless mistakes. So in conclusion I believe that Jesus was born entirely sinless,.. but in order to fully know what it's like to be human you also have to fully understand what it's like to be imperfect.

Jesus was/is fully God and ... as God He knew/knows everything that is going to happen before it happens.

Psalm 139:1-24
To the choirmaster. A Psalm of David. O Lord, you have searched me and known me! You know when I sit down and when I rise up; you discern my thoughts from afar. You search out my path and my lying down and are acquainted with all my ways. Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O Lord, you know it altogether. You hem me in, behind and before, and lay your hand upon me. ...

Omniscience

Omniscience means God is all-knowing. This means God knows everything, including the past and future. There is nothing God is unaware of. Omnipresence means God is everywhere at the same time.

Jesus is our creator .... He knows more about us than we know about ourselves.
 
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Running2win

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Jesus was/is fully God and ... as God He knew/knows everything that is going to happen before it happens.

Psalm 139:1-24
To the choirmaster. A Psalm of David. O Lord, you have searched me and known me! You know when I sit down and when I rise up; you discern my thoughts from afar. You search out my path and my lying down and are acquainted with all my ways. Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O Lord, you know it altogether. You hem me in, behind and before, and lay your hand upon me. ...

Omniscience

Omniscience means God is all-knowing. This means God knows everything, including the past and future. There is nothing God is unaware of. Omnipresence means God is everywhere at the same time.

Jesus is our creator .... He knows more about us than we know about ourselves.

But Jesus also limited Himself as a man. He could of "cheated", but He chose to "man up", and do it like a man. :rolleyes: Not that I don't agree with you 100% on He was both God and Man.

He had to grow, learn, and He willing limited His powers (like super man-love that movie). His shining glory was hidden from us too. :)
 
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eleos1954

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But Jesus also limited Himself as a man. He could of "cheated", but He chose to "man up", and do it like a man. :rolleyes: Not that I don't agree with you 100% on He was both God and Man.

He had to grow, learn, and He willing limited His powers (like super man-love that movie). His shining glory was hidden from us too. :)

We don’t have any record of Jesus making a mistake that we can be clear definitely is one. So it's purely speculative.
 
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nolidad

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I realize that I'm going to have a lot of people angry with me over this one but I don't think He was and let me explain. To me there is a major difference of being perfect and being sinless. It's true that Jesus never disobeyed His parents, but did He always know right from wrong and what His parents expected of Him? I don't think He always knew better and had to be taught right from wrong just like any other child so that He could always do what was right.





Also I don't think that He was perfect in the sense where He never ever made a spelling mistake or forgot where He left one of His carpentry tools as those are classified as sinless mistakes. So in conclusion I believe that Jesus was born entirely sinless,.. but in order to fully know what it's like to be human you also have to fully understand what it's like to be imperfect.

Trying to come up with definitive answers the Bible doesn't specifically say is always a path fraught with danger!

Hebrews 4:15
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Jesus had no sin nature, so there would be no sin. If Jesus was imperfect, that by definition meant He had to sin, and if He sinned, He could no longer be Messiah nor God the Son incarnate in human form.

He had to learn and grow in knowledge, but was never disobedient. As a young child He would not know that His parents had certain expectations. They told Him and He simply obeyed as He learned, but He did not learn by disobedience.
 
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April_Rose

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Trying to come up with definitive answers the Bible doesn't specifically say is always a path fraught with danger!

Hebrews 4:15
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Jesus had no sin nature, so there would be no sin. If Jesus was imperfect, that by definition meant He had to sin, and if He sinned, He could no longer be Messiah nor God the Son incarnate in human form.

He had to learn and grow in knowledge, but was never disobedient. As a young child He would not know that His parents had certain expectations. They told Him and He simply obeyed as He learned, but He did not learn by disobedience.





I never said that He disobeyed His parents,.. but that doesn't mean as a young toddler that He didn't do anything that He shouldn't have without knowing any better or His parents telling Him no first.
 
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eleos1954

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Trying to come up with definitive answers the Bible doesn't specifically say is always a path fraught with danger!

Hebrews 4:15
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Jesus had no sin nature, so there would be no sin. If Jesus was imperfect, that by definition meant He had to sin, and if He sinned, He could no longer be Messiah nor God the Son incarnate in human form.

He had to learn and grow in knowledge, but was never disobedient. As a young child He would not know that His parents had certain expectations. They told Him and He simply obeyed as He learned, but He did not learn by disobedience.

correct ... honor thy mother & father ... and He did so flawlessly.
 
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nolidad

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I never said that He disobeyed His parents,.. but that doesn't mean as a young toddler that He didn't do anything that He shouldn't have without knowing any better or His parents telling Him no first.

Why speculate on something we cannot possibly hope to know? It can do no good in the long run.
 
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eleos1954

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I never said that He disobeyed His parents,.. but that doesn't mean as a young toddler that He didn't do anything that He shouldn't have without knowing any better or His parents telling Him no first.

Hard to say Rose .... no info about Jesus' early years.
 
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April_Rose

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I'm only saying it's possible. Like I said before a toddler who doesn't understand the difference between right and wrong can't possibly sin and has to be taught before they can choose to do right which there's no denying that obviously Jesus always did.
 
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JacksBratt

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Yes, righteous.
Definition of righteous
1 : acting in accord with divine or moral law : free from guilt or sin

If the righteousness that we appear to have, when covered by the blood of Christ, did not render us sinless... how would we have eternal life... which is only for those who are sinless.
 
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