COVID-19. I disagree with my pastors.

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Covid 19 is just a Coronavirus, it's no different than other Coronaviruses other than it hasn't been in humans before. It's only novel in that regard, otherwise it's a run of the mill Coronavirus similar to those that cause the common cold. Specifically it's the same microscopic size which means the pre-covid studies are directly applicable.
I see, there is no difference between COVID-19 and any other corona virus. Except maybe the fact that it is far more deadly. How many people has the common cold killed this year?
 
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Redwingfan9

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I see, there is no difference between COVID-19 and any other corona virus. Except maybe the fact that it is far more deadly. How many people has the common cold killed this year?
Again, when it comes to the virus passing through a porous cloth mask it doesn't matter whether it's deadly or not. If masks can't stop common cold Coronaviruses then it isn't going to stop Covid.
 
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Again, when it comes to the virus passing through a porous cloth mask it doesn't matter whether it's deadly or not. If masks can't stop common cold Coronaviruses then it isn't going to stop Covid.
But they can. That’s why the CDC wants us wearing masks.
 
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Redwingfan9

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But they can. That’s why the CDC wants us wearing masks.
The CDC might want to consult their own studies before making such ridiculous demands. According to a New England Journal of Medicine editorial, it is acknowledged that masks don't work but are a necessary placebo to make people think they're doing something and to make government look like it's doing something even though they aren't. https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp2006372

There's a reason why The Netherlands gave up on masks. There is no credible evidence that they work and thr Dutch know it.
 
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The CDC might want to consult their own studies before making such ridiculous demands. According to a New England Journal of Medicine editorial, it is acknowledged that masks don't work but are a necessary placebo to make people think they're doing something and to make government look like it's doing something even though they aren't. https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp2006372

May. Another old study written before we had all the evidence we now have.

There's a reason why The Netherlands gave up on masks. There is no credible evidence that they work and thr Dutch know it.

Proof to back up that claim please.
 
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Sophrosyne

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What about all the dead?
Do you truly care for the dead? To be brutally honest I'm not God I cannot care about 160,000 people in this country dying nor can I care about the millions dying in Africa over the years from disease and starvation that if we had not shut down the country that money could have saved perhaps 10 million peoples lives across the planet. If you put the money you spend on masks could you save the life of a half dozen starving children with it? I don't know. The thing is people have this idea that they are saving lives by wearing a mask when most likely they are just delaying deaths of people that will sooner or later get infected and maybe die anyway because we cannot live in isolation forever.
 
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My city allows churches to assemble outdoors as long as they comply with the mask and social distancing requirements.

My church has signs, free masks and free hand sanitizer to comply with the city regulations. We assemble but the younger church members refuse to wear a mask citing various opinions based on the bible (God will protect me), medical opinions on covid (just the flu), etc. News crews show up to video tape the event. The next day the church is contacted by city officials to discuss our compliance issues.

I think the younger Christians are simply not compassionate. They haven't taken Love Your Neighbor to heart. I wish I saw more of a movement to contribute to food banks and medical charities and pray for our neighbors.

My pastors say we have the right to assemble. They focus more on government intervention instead of compliance and compassion for others.

I know the Holy Spirit directs each individual in their own way. I am wondering if I should say something to my pastors OR simply be accepting of their journey. Any ideas?

They are invoking Mark 16:17-18?
 
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rturner76

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The pastor knows what is going on I'm sure. Younger people are essentially at no risk from this virus. If the laws are that masks are mandatory... period then he will do something about it but some places don't require masks if distancing is not a problem at all not sure of your situation. Personally I thinks masks are WAY overrated in their effectiveness I think they are more a (bad) psychological weapon to ease public concerns about this virus that are blown way out of proportion purposely by the media and politicians.
I believe if you are at risk rely on distancing FIRST and foremost and masks LAST. If health workers aren't allowed to use cheap 99 cent masks then there must be a reason and if they are getting INFECTED while wearing the best N95 mask available then NO mask is proof against this virus.... NONE will protect you totally.
If you feel safe wearing a mask...... you are being fooled IMO. Distancing works.... masks.... don't bet on them.

Do you know a sneeze can travel 6-10 feet in 1 second? Then what happens to all the viruses that went airborne? Do they simply disappear or do you think they might hang around in the air for a while? A mask is not 100% effective, does that mean none of them aid in prevention?

Of course, it is passed to people with even the best masks. If you touch the virus and rub your eye then boom, you're exposed. It's like injecting it (exaggeration). When regs were reinforced at the end of July, the total reported cases (nationally) went down about 25% and has remained lower since. Some states are getting massacred averaging a death a day

Those kids at church need to comply. Maybe they are surviving it at a higher rate. They still pass it to everyone they meet when they have it for 2 weeks before any symptoms. Some never get symptoms but carry the virus. So they should get the boot out of the group if they won't comply. They can go infect the heathens, let God's people live. Do you know how many old people go to church? Lots
 
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rturner76

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Do you truly care for the dead? To be brutally honest I'm not God I cannot care about 160,000 people in this country dying nor can I care about the millions dying in Africa over the years from disease and starvation that if we had not shut down the country that money could have saved perhaps 10 million peoples lives across the planet. If you put the money you spend on masks could you save the life of a half dozen starving children with it? I don't know. The thing is people have this idea that they are saving lives by wearing a mask when most likely they are just delaying deaths of people that will sooner or later get infected and maybe die anyway because we cannot live in isolation forever.
Genius logic, I'm impressed by your intelligence! Good plan. Everybody stop wearing masks and donate the money you save to Africans. That should fix things. Do you think you are immune to this virus? If you don't leave home no problem but don't spread your disease to my 80-year-old mother. Aren't you a Christian? Try caring about other people. It's one of those things us Christians do (I guess, not so sure now)
 
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rturner76

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If it would help you feel at peace about the decision, by all means talk to your pastors. I'd just suggest that you bear the following in mind:

Your pastors are, in many ways, in a no-win situation. They are trying to balance the law, medical advice, whatever guidance they are receiving from God, and pressure from their congregation (and that pressure will be pushing them in a bunch of incompatible directions). They will be worried about making the wrong decisions, and the cost of that, potentially, in people's lives; in people's welfare; in the long term strength of the church community; and in the witness of your church to your local community.

They are likely, at this point in the pandemic, very tired, very stressed, and struggling to adapt to the need to do things differently to "normal," in all sorts of ways that you won't necessarily see. They will be grieving anyone they know who has died, and grieving other losses, such as being unable to visit the sick and dying, and not being able to care for people the way that they would like.

Their own supports and resources for self-care have likely been badly disrupted, and if they have families, they are also concerned for how their families are travelling through all of this, and possibly demands on them at home have increased dramatically.

I have seen a lot of publishing recently about clergy burnout during this pandemic, and the predicted likely long-term cost to the church, with the prediction that after this pandemic, a surprisingly high number of us will end up walking away.

I say all this, so that you understand the context in which your pastors will receive whatever you say. Yours will be one voice in that chorus; so I'd suggest trying to offer whatever you have to say in a way that's supportive, rather than harsh.

I don't want to see any Priests getting burned out but for one My Priest has had the bast 4 months off. The Basilica has been closed. Second, the Priest need to look out for the safety of their flock first period. Would you let a killer stalk your church? If the answer is no, you must enforce compliance. This virus is a killer and it takes more victims who don't wear masks or wash their hands. Kick that killer out of your church. Don't invite him to share the communion wine.
 
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rturner76

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Yeah, there's another name for such folks going around, but as I'm advocating for stopping the name calling I better not use it... :sweatsmile:

The best thing we can do, imo, is not engage with them because it's a no win situation. I had one such person "call me out" recently. I just said, "thank you" and walked away. Even though I had a lot of good responses I would have loved to use! :tearsofjoy:
If you are not wearing a mask in a public place you need to be called out. You're a Christian right? Act like one and show at least half a care for other human beings. You might not have symptoms. You might never get symptoms, you could still have the virus and smear it all over everywhere you go. I don't care if your mother dies a horrible wretched death. By not complying that is what you are telling the world.
 
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Brighid

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Do you truly care for the dead? To be brutally honest I'm not God I cannot care about 160,000 people in this country dying nor can I care about the millions dying in Africa over the years from disease and starvation that if we had not shut down the country that money could have saved perhaps 10 million peoples lives across the planet. If you put the money you spend on masks could you save the life of a half dozen starving children with it? I don't know. The thing is people have this idea that they are saving lives by wearing a mask when most likely they are just delaying deaths of people that will sooner or later get infected and maybe die anyway because we cannot live in isolation forever.
Speaking of saving lives, we build our immune systems by exposure to germs and naturally fighting illness. Those who have been super-sanitizing themselves and their children, using antibiotics unnecessarily and introducing other poisons into their bodies are placing a great risk to their health by degrading their immune systems. When the masks and gloves come off, those people will not have the same resistance as those of us who care for our bodies and live normal lives. I hope the fallout from that situation doesn't pose a REAL health emergency.
 
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rturner76

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I'm getting sick of this "compassion for others" routine. Just because people see things differently than you, especially on an issue as layered as this, does not make them less compassionate. It's actually quite a divisive and, ironically, incompassionate thing to accuse others of. Could there be some people who fit that description? Sure. But, if so, they most likely did long before the masks, and it has deeper roots than simply wearing a mask or not.
Wow, a Christian complaining about having compassion. That's a new one. There is no "other way" to see this. Either wear a mask or risk other people's lives. 1+1=2. Any questions? It's easy math. It's not at all selfish for me to want my mom to keep living. It IS selfish to risk other's lives because you don like wearing a mask or even a bandana is better than nothing and then feeling righteous for spreading disease everywhere is something I have never heard of. People are not self righteous for asking others not to risk the health of their parents. There is literally no good reason not to. People just don't like being told what to do like 5 year olds. Real men and real women do what's requires of them. Get over your disdain for society and participate. You don't look smarter, if fact it's the opposite.

It's like people don't have the basic understanding of cause and effect. I've known about cause/effect since I was 2
 
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rturner76

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Speaking of saving lives, we build our immune systems by exposure to germs and naturally fighting illness. Those who have been super-sanitizing themselves and their children, using antibiotics unnecessarily and introducing other poisons into their bodies are placing a great risk to their health by degrading their immune systems. When the masks and gloves come off, those people will not have the same resistance as those of us who care for our bodies and live normal lives. I hope the fallout from that situation doesn't pose a REAL health emergency.
Why don't we all just contract HIV so we can build up our immune systems? Nobody needs to use chemicals. Soap and water and a mask are fine. Or should we not wash our hands after we poop to build our immune systems?
 
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Ummm...washing hands after using the toilet and avoiding HIV are good things.
Glad we agree. Now, do you really think we need to be exposed to Corona in order to get immunity from it? I haven't heard that from any doctor I can think of
 
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Brighid

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I think we need to have healthy immune systems in order to fight disease. Unfortunately, many doctors are more concerned with money than with people's health. It's not hard to find doctors who talk about keeping the immune system healthy, even specifically in regard to covid. But, you're not going to find them by watching the news.
 
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GaveMeJoy

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My city allows churches to assemble outdoors as long as they comply with the mask and social distancing requirements.

My church has signs, free masks and free hand sanitizer to comply with the city regulations. We assemble but the younger church members refuse to wear a mask citing various opinions based on the bible (God will protect me), medical opinions on covid (just the flu), etc. News crews show up to video tape the event. The next day the church is contacted by city officials to discuss our compliance issues.

I think the younger Christians are simply not compassionate. They haven't taken Love Your Neighbor to heart. I wish I saw more of a movement to contribute to food banks and medical charities and pray for our neighbors.

My pastors say we have the right to assemble. They focus more on government intervention instead of compliance and compassion for others.

I know the Holy Spirit directs each individual in their own way. I am wondering if I should say something to my pastors OR simply be accepting of their journey. Any ideas?
Unfortunately being a republican or conservative has become equally important in the minds of many evangelical church leaders. Instead of following the law, they can be chomping at the bit to fight the “liberals.” And this can destroy the testimony of Christ and set a terrible example for the members in the body. I would say based on what you have described that you are following the lead of the Holy Spirit and the elders of your church may be unintentionally allowing their pride and nationalism to drown out the Holy Spirit. Remember where there is a spirit of pride or a spirit of rebellion (even if cloaked in “protecting religious freedom”) there is NO spirit of God.

my father and elders of his church have unfortunately gone down that route. I’m confident in saying they are all much more spiritually mature than I am, I trust their judgement more than my own in every other instance but it’s a big blind spot for republican Christians aged 40-70...they can’t see it. Much like how Christians age 19-25 are too stupid to see how important marriage is and how they are likely not mature enough to get married (this was me!).

You should make your leading from the HS (that the body needs to have compassion on others by wearing masks and following the law), but be careful how you discuss it that you do so in a respectful way, and then regardless follow the lead of the HS on this issue.
 
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I don't want to see any Priests getting burned out but for one My Priest has had the bast 4 months off. The Basilica has been closed.

Churches have been closed, but that doesn't mean priests aren't working. Providing online content, printed resources, pastoral support by phone, and so on (as well as all sorts of other things) has replaced the usual rhythms of public worship. I don't know if your priest has had a holiday, but most of us have been working very hard.

Second, the Priest need to look out for the safety of their flock first period. Would you let a killer stalk your church? If the answer is no, you must enforce compliance. This virus is a killer and it takes more victims who don't wear masks or wash their hands. Kick that killer out of your church. Don't invite him to share the communion wine.

I don't disagree about safety, but different churches have different governance structures. It is not clear to me whether the OP's pastors can enforce compliance within that church's polity.

Either way, my basic point was just that in talking to his pastors, the OP might find it helpful to be aware of what those pastors are likely dealing with.
 
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Churches have been closed, but that doesn't mean priests aren't working. Providing online content, printed resources, pastoral support by phone, and so on (as well as all sorts of other things) has replaced the usual rhythms of public worship. I don't know if your priest has had a holiday, but most of us have been working very hard.



I don't disagree about safety, but different churches have different governance structures. It is not clear to me whether the OP's pastors can enforce compliance within that church's polity.

Either way, my basic point was just that in talking to his pastors, the OP might find it helpful to be aware of what those pastors are likely dealing with.
Very true. I used to go to a church where the church council was in charge of everything. They get a new Pastor every 6-18 months. If he does something they don't like he gets bounced out of there as soon as they can send a new Pastor.

We do need to be sensitive when we talk to people about these issues. Especially when talking about the right to assemble and parishioner's right to worship in a place they know. Also like I have been ranting and raving about here, as Christians we should be concerned with the health and safety of others. Even more so with our Pastors and fellow parishioners. I would hope the young people would be open enough to consider being as safe as possible.

I would be the type to go straight to the congregation myself and plead my case for health and safety. That may even be more considerate to ask the Pastor for 5 minutes than pressuring him to choose a side.
 
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