Saved by faith alone

Danthemailman said:

Hmm.. I was just recently in a discussion with a Roman Catholic on a different Christian forum site and he had this to say, and I quote: We are saved by faith and obedience of faith. Faith = Belief/Trust + Works/Obedience. In what universe does that not equate to salvation by faith AND WORKS? He actually corrected me when I said the Roman Catholic church teaches salvation by works (as if I was implying the Roman Catholic church teaches salvation by works apart from any kind of faith whatsoever) then he clearly stated that the Roman Catholic church teaches salvation by faith AND WORKS and it's no secret that the Roman Catholic church teaches salvation by faith AND WORKS.

The Catholic Church Teaches Salvation by Works

Reading Scripture IN CONTEXT and properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine hardly qualifies as contortions of Scripture. I'll stick with the facts.

The facts are is that you don't need to "add" the word "alone" next to multiple passages of Scripture that make it clear man is saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications" in order to figure out that the words "belief/faith STAND ALONE" in connection with receiving eternal life/salvation. Also, "faith only" in James 2:24 is referring to an empty profession of faith/dead faith (James 2:14) and not authentic faith. So man is justified (accounted as righteous) by faith and not by works (Romans 4:2-6) and is justified (shown to be righteous) by works. (James 2:21,24) *Perfect Harmony*

You refuted nothing. You simply gave me your biased opinion based on your preconceived beliefs and your argument is inconclusive. Again, the Jews were in the olive tree to begin with because they were the "natural branches" and not because they were all saved. Because of their unbelief and hard hearts God removed His gracious hand from them as a people overall and broke them off from His goodness (but only for a time after which they will be restored - Romans 11:24-26). You only seem to focus on verses 20-23 and ignore the context. Verse 25 - For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved..

We Gentiles have now been grafted into God's goodness and are the recipients of His blessings. Paul's warning is that we should not become arrogant because we might lose the goodness and blessings of God just like the Jews lost the goodness and blessings of God. Professing Christians who are Gentiles are corporately in outward covenant with Christ so, it would appear that Romans 11 is speaking about the question of collective ecclesiology and not individual soteriology. I see the warning to this collective body, which is corporately joined to Christ and is in a covenant relationship, but how could this mean that every individual in it is in saving union with Christ? Hence the "cut off."

Union with Christ applies to the elect, and only for the elect are, "the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable." (verse 29) But since non-elect covenant members are mixed in, Christ clearly appears to have non-elect branches, like Judas Iscariot (John 15:1-8) and while they may be joined outwardly in covenant with Christ, since they have professed faith in Jesus, the faith of some of them is spurious because they were never truly saved to begin with, even though they were among genuine believers. (1 John 2:19).

I'm very satisfied with the truth after reading Romans 11 in context.

This should be interesting. You need to remember that prior to my conversion, I was born and raised in the Roman Catholic church, so none of your arguments are anything new or enlightening.

Have a nice day!

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Danthemailman said:

You have not changed your views on "type 2 works salvation" and you continue to peddle the same views that I heard you peddle on Christian Chat, so I see no change. If I remember correctly, you did not leave Christian Chat voluntarily.

Type 2 works salvation. Keeping those commands are not forced or legalistic for those who are born of God. Believers keep His commands BECAUSE they are saved and not in order to become or remain saved. Condemned for greater sins (mortal sins) and just not minor sins (venial sins). You should have been a Roman Catholic.

This straw man argument has reached the point of slander and it's getting really old.

Acts 13:39 - and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses. You are all about "type 2 performance based works salvation" and have some major self righteous issues.

David did not die in his sins of adultery and murder, but was saved. Your "holier than thou" self righteous attitude coupled with your straw man arguments and slander is what is sad here.

Are you back to sinless perfection again?

I have already read enough of your sugar coated double talk.

That is your Roman Catholic take on 1 John 5:16-17, but as I already explained to you. Some people jump to the conclusion that John is talking about believers committing certain sins that lead them to spiritual death, but that does not seem to fit the context - 1 John 5:16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death. 18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.

So back to sinless perfection.

Back at you!

Descriptive of believers.

Second, look at the context!

You twist this verse to teach that man merits eternal life based on the merits of practical, holy living/performance/works. Again, the NASB reads - Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. (Hebrews 12:14). To be "sanctified" is to be "set apart, made holy." Without justification, there is no sanctification. Those who have been justified by faith are also sanctified/set apart/made holy before God positionally in Christ. 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Looking at the context, I see that you twist verse 15 to mean that men were saved by grace ultimately fail the grace of God and lose their salvation. Your pet translation (KJV) helps make it sound that way, yet other translations make it more clear. The NKJV reads - "..fall short of the grace of God." The NIV reads - "falls short of the grace of God." The NASB reads - "..comes short of the grace of God." The ESV reads - "..fails to obtain the grace of God."

You might as well be a Roman Catholic and I find no honesty in your sugar coated double talk.

This is more slander. Your deceptiveness is well noted.

Back to sinless perfection. Your theology is a self righteous nightmare.

Descriptive of believers.

Jude further describes such people and they are not genuine believers.

Back to sinless perfection again? These are false prophets and false teachers. So you believe that "cease from sin" here means sinless perfection? Just man up and admit that you teach sinless perfection. Be honest!

So you interpret Peter to be saying cannot cease from (major transgression) and not minor transgressions? So God overlooks minor sins? Is that what you are saying?

Exhortations that are descriptive of those who are born of God. 1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. Was Peter continuing in the love of God while he was denying Christ 3 times? Did Peter ultimately continue in the love of God? Yes.

These commands are not forced or legalistic for those who are born of God. You turn commands into legalism.

Is that what Jude said in verse 24? Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy. You think this is all about YOU. Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off. How long is forever? Does God only preserve those who preserve themselves?

BTW: Proverbs 24:16 - For a righteous man may fall seven times and rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity.

*Take note of "having not the Spirit" in verse 19. *Not genuine believers.

Leave it to you to turn "believing in Him" into works salvation. John 3:19 - And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. DESCRIPTIVE of unbelievers. In CONTRAST with verse 21, which is DESCRIPTIVE of believers. Evil is reflected in fleeing from the light and evil deeds are done in darkness, while those who practice the truth come to the Light and good deeds are wrought in God.

You are twisting the scriptures here in an effort to "add" works to John 6:40. In John 4:34, Jesus said "MY" food is to do the will of Him who sent Me, and to finish His work, in response to the disciples who were talking about eating literal food.

In John 6:39-40, Jesus said - This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

Jesus is speaking of the reception of God’s grace by believing in Christ, as He makes abundantly clear below:

John 6:40 - Everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:54 - Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:47 - Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.
John 6:58 - He who eats this bread will live forever.

"He who believes" in Christ is equivalent to "he who eats this bread and drinks My blood" because the result is the same, eternal life. Jesus explains the sense of the entire passage when He says in John 6:63 - "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life."

Bread represents the "staff of life." Sustenance. That which essential to sustain life. Just as bread or sustenance is necessary to maintain physical life, Jesus is all the sustenance necessary for spiritual life.
The source of physical life is blood -- "life is in the blood." As with the bread, just as blood is the empowering or source of life physically, Jesus is all the source of spiritual life necessary.

If you believe in Jesus as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation, then you will also believe that all of His words are true. Your believe "all of His words are true" statement is a scheme to teach salvation by works.

Those who don't believe in/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation (John 3:15,16,18; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9 etc..) have rejected Him and His words.

I accept those words of Jesus, just not your misinterpretation of those words that results in works salvation.

Genuine believers do not have a hard time accepting these words by Jesus. Just your misinterpretation of those words.

"Initial" salvation? Where does the Bible say "initial" salvation? More type 2 works salvation.

More sinless perfection. In 1 Corinthians 3:1-3, Paul is addressing brethren who are acting carnal, like mere men and calls them out on their envy, strife, and divisions, yet he still refers to them as babes in Christ. Yet you refer to them as condemned. They need to grow up and mature.

Sola Scripture and salvation through faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone is Biblical and is the narrow way. Salvation by works leads down the broad way, which is what the majority of world religions (including false religions and cults that claim to be Christian) teach.

And what did the majority of the Jews teach? Works salvation! Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

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Swag365 said:

I'll get back to you later, but as I wrote before, you will not find any official document promulgated by the Catholic Church that states "salvation is by faith and works". Sure, many lay-Catholics state that, especially when they are speaking imprecisely, but many lay-Catholics say all sorts of things that are not in accord with the official teachings of the Church. The same is true for every denomination and their laity.

If you want the most recent official Catholic document on justification, you will find it here:

Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification

14. The Lutheran churches and the Roman Catholic Church have together listened to the good news proclaimed in Holy Scripture. This common listening, together with the theological conversations of recent years, has led to a shared understanding of justification. This encompasses a consensus in the basic truths; the differing explications in particular statements are compatible with it.

15. In faith we together hold the conviction that justification is the work of the triune God. The Father sent his Son into the world to save sinners. The foundation and presupposition of justification is the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Christ. Justification thus means that Christ himself is our righteousness, in which we share through the Holy Spirit in accord with the will of the Father. Together we confess: By grace alone, in faith in Christ's saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works.[11]

16. All people are called by God to salvation in Christ. Through Christ alone are we justified, when we receive this salvation in faith. Faith is itself God's gift through the Holy Spirit who works through word and sacrament in the community of believers and who, at the same time, leads believers into that renewal of life which God will bring to completion in eternal life.

17. We also share the conviction that the message of justification directs us in a special way towards the heart of the New Testament witness to God's saving action in Christ: it tells us that as sinners our new life is solely due to the forgiving and renewing mercy that God imparts as a gift and we receive in faith, and never can merit in any way.​

Does that sound like "Salvation is by faith plus works" to you?

I'll respond to your other arguments later.

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Swag365 said:

@Danthemailman

And FYI - I was born and raised a OSAS believing Protestant such as yourself, so none of your arguments are novel to me, either.

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genez said:

If one can lose their salvation, then being given eternal life when saved is a myth. Eternal life means life without beginning and end. There is no such thing as salvation if we can lose it. What has no end can not end.

Its people who project their own judgmental arrogance onto God that transforms their image of God as saving people while holding a large fly swatter for those who get out of line.

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Danthemailman said:

Not on the surface, but this does:

Canon 11. If anyone says that men are justified either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ or by the sole remission of sins, excluding grace and charity which is poured into their hearts by the Holy Spirit and inheres in them, or also that the grace which justifies us is only the favour of God, let him be anathema.

Canon 12. If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, let him be anathema.

Canon 24. If anyone says that the justice (righteousness) received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of the increase, let him be anathema.

Canon 30. If anyone says that after the reception of the grace of justification the guilt is so remitted and the debt of eternal punishment so blotted out to every repentant sinner, that no debt of temporal punishment remains to be discharged either in this world or in purgatory before the gates of heaven can be opened, let him be anathema.

Canon 32. If anyone says that the good works of the one justified are in such manner the gifts of God that they are not also the good merits of him justified; or that the one justified by the good works that he performs by the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ (of whom one is a living member), the justified does not truly merit an increase of grace, and eternal life, provided that one dies in the state of grace, the attainment of this eternal life, as well as an increase in glory, let him be anathema.

From the Catholic Answers (catholic.com) website (straight from the horses mouth) I read this below:

Finally, it’s interesting to note that the type of works that James lists as necessary for having a saving faith (clothing the naked and feeding the hungry, v.15) are the same type of works that Jesus says will merit eternal life: “nherit the kingdom prepared for you…for I was hungry and you gave me food…I was naked and you clothed me” (Matt. 25:35-36).

Our Protestants friends are correct in saying that our good works will prove our faith genuine in the eyes of men (see James 2:18). But it doesn’t do justice to James’s teaching for them to stop at this point. There is more to the story.

The main point for James is that our works “complete” our faith and keep it alive. And inasmuch as our works are necessary for a living faith, they are necessary for keeping us in a saving relationship with God. This is why James can write, “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

A Catholic, therefore, is justified in his appeal to James 2:24 in support of his belief that works are necessary for salvation!

TRANSLATION: SALVATION IS BY FAITH AND WORKS.

The Roman Catholic church teaches that justification comes in stages. Initial justification by faith, then final justification by works. That is what I call "type 2 works salvation." How does that work when Catholics basically define faith "as" good works?

Justified by Faith or Works or Both?

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Swag365 said:

Well before we get into this, and since, as I wrote before that "Salvation is by faith plus works" means different things to different people, can you give me a definition of what "salvation is by faith plus works" means to you? Once we have a precise definition of what that phrase means to you, we can discuss whether or not the Catholic Church actually teaches it.

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Danthemailman said:

Which church were you raised in prior to joining the Roman Catholic church and what exactly did you believe about the plan of salvation prior to joining the Roman Catholic church? What do YOU believe the gospel "is" and what do YOU believe it means to "believe" the gospel?

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Danthemailman said:

"Salvation by faith plus works" means to me that either we are saved by both faith and works from the start or that we are initially saved by faith, but ultimately, still saved by works. Some describe it like saved through faith, then salvation is maintained by works. Either way, works (along with faith) become the basis or means by which we receive eternal life and are meritorious.

I believe that man is saved through faith "apart from the merit of works" yet authentic faith "does not remain apart from the presence of works." (Romans 4:2-6; James 2:21,24) I believe that Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption alone and not based on the merits of our works.

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Swag365 said:

Different denominations at different points. Southern Baptist, Reformed Baptist, Evangelical Free. The beliefs varied accordingly. I can define the gospel in various different ways. One way is that it is the good news that our Lord died to save our sins. As for the word "believe" I will point you to the dictionary.

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Swag365 said:

Thanks. A bit more clarification, please. Can you elaborate on "ultimately still saved by works" or "maintained by works"?

By that do you mean that the idea that a justified Christian cannot rape and murder a two year old infant and remain in God's saving grace without repenting for this hideous sin, is "being saved by works" or "maintaining one's salvation"?

Or do you mean something else?

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Danthemailman said:

I believe that the gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16)

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and to "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. Do you agree?

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Swag365 said:

This is cool by me. No disagreements here.

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Well I don't know what you mean by "all-sufficient means" of our salvation. I would need a bit more clarification on that point before answering.

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If that means that "nothing else is required" other than our Lord's death, burial, and resurrection, then I would say no. If that were the case, then it would conclude that the entire world would be saved, because our Lord's atoning sacrifice was offered for the sins of the whole world, as Scripture states. At the very least we have to accept our Lord's sacrifice. Our acceptance is required.

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We also see in Romans 10 that St. Paul teaches that preaching of the gospel is required:

For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!”​

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So I would have difficulty agreeing with the statement if it means that "nothing else is required." The preaching that St. Paul speaks of would be an example of an "instrumental cause".

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But if you are asking me if I believe that our Lord's death, burial, and resurrection is the meritorious cause (as opposed to the instrumental cause) of our justification (that is, the cause that appeases God's anger against man and the cause that makes satisfaction for us onto God the Father), then I agree, as this is precisely what the Catholic Church teaches.

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Swag365 said:

Well before we get into this, and since, as I wrote before that "Salvation is by faith plus works" means different things to different people, can you give me a definition of what "salvation is by faith plus works" means to you? Once we have a precise definition of what that phrase means to you, we can discuss whether or not the Catholic Church actually teaches it.

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Danthemailman said:

Christ's finished work of redemption is the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation and faith is the instrumental means by which we obtain salvation.

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What is the difference between "meritorious" cause and "instrumental" cause in your view?

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Now does the Catholic church teach that faith in Christ alone (faith that trusts in Christ alone for salvation and not in works) is the instrumental means by which we obtain salvation

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or do they teach that works also play a role as the instrumental means by which we either obtain or maintain salvation?

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genez said:

Swag....

If the Catholic church is so great and perfect (as you present it to be). Why did it lose control? Why the Inquisitions? Why did they try to kill Luther for simply wishing to exegete the Scriptures more accurately? Why did it wish to burn men at the stake who wanted to exegete Scripture?

Its an honest question. For you keep promoting Catholicism as if you are not aware of these things.

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As for myself? I was a Jew who grew up in an Irish Catholic neighborhood. Loved all my friends. I played for CYO dances when I was teen. I do not understand how one can be ignorant of the ignorance unless he is never told. Have you been told?

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Swag365 said:

I never wrote that the Catholic Church was perfect. Heck if you ask me the Church is a sorry state, especially with the sexual abuse scandals, lack of education and general lukewarmness among our laity.

But if we are going back to the deformation era, let's not even pretend like the the Catholics were all the bad guys and the reformers were all saints. Plenty of folks on all sides wished all sorts of bad things on people that they disagreed with. Your homeboy Luther wrote "On the Jews and their lies" and something like all of their houses should be burned or they should be sold back into slavery or some crazy stuff like that. Wrote all other sorts of nasty things too. Calvin had Servetus burned at the stake. The English reformers severely persecuted the Catholics living in that country.

That is not an excuse for evil done by Catholics, of course. If we are gonna play the "who has been the nicest" game we might all have to become Amish, or Buddhist for that matter.

Never been told what?

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