Swag365
Well-Known Member
I'll get back to you later, but as I wrote before, you will not find any official document promulgated by the Catholic Church that states "salvation is by faith and works". Sure, many lay-Catholics state that, especially when they are speaking imprecisely, but many lay-Catholics say all sorts of things that are not in accord with the official teachings of the Church. The same is true for every denomination and their laity.Hmm.. I was just recently in a discussion with a Roman Catholic on a different Christian forum site and he had this to say, and I quote: We are saved by faith and obedience of faith. Faith = Belief/Trust + Works/Obedience. In what universe does that not equate to salvation by faith AND WORKS? He actually corrected me when I said the Roman Catholic church teaches salvation by works (as if I was implying the Roman Catholic church teaches salvation by works apart from any kind of faith whatsoever) then he clearly stated that the Roman Catholic church teaches salvation by faith AND WORKS and it's no secret that the Roman Catholic church teaches salvation by faith AND WORKS.
The Catholic Church Teaches Salvation by Works
Reading Scripture IN CONTEXT and properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine hardly qualifies as contortions of Scripture. I'll stick with the facts.
The facts are is that you don't need to "add" the word "alone" next to multiple passages of Scripture that make it clear man is saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications" in order to figure out that the words "belief/faith STAND ALONE" in connection with receiving eternal life/salvation. Also, "faith only" in James 2:24 is referring to an empty profession of faith/dead faith (James 2:14) and not authentic faith. So man is justified (accounted as righteous) by faith and not by works (Romans 4:2-6) and is justified (shown to be righteous) by works. (James 2:21,24) *Perfect Harmony*
You refuted nothing. You simply gave me your biased opinion based on your preconceived beliefs and your argument is inconclusive. Again, the Jews were in the olive tree to begin with because they were the "natural branches" and not because they were all saved. Because of their unbelief and hard hearts God removed His gracious hand from them as a people overall and broke them off from His goodness (but only for a time after which they will be restored - Romans 11:24-26). You only seem to focus on verses 20-23 and ignore the context. Verse 25 - For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved..
We Gentiles have now been grafted into God's goodness and are the recipients of His blessings. Paul's warning is that we should not become arrogant because we might lose the goodness and blessings of God just like the Jews lost the goodness and blessings of God. Professing Christians who are Gentiles are corporately in outward covenant with Christ so, it would appear that Romans 11 is speaking about the question of collective ecclesiology and not individual soteriology. I see the warning to this collective body, which is corporately joined to Christ and is in a covenant relationship, but how could this mean that every individual in it is in saving union with Christ? Hence the "cut off."
Union with Christ applies to the elect, and only for the elect are, "the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable." (verse 29) But since non-elect covenant members are mixed in, Christ clearly appears to have non-elect branches, like Judas Iscariot (John 15:1-8) and while they may be joined outwardly in covenant with Christ, since they have professed faith in Jesus, the faith of some of them is spurious because they were never truly saved to begin with, even though they were among genuine believers. (1 John 2:19).
I'm very satisfied with the truth after reading Romans 11 in context.
This should be interesting. You need to remember that prior to my conversion, I was born and raised in the Roman Catholic church, so none of your arguments are anything new or enlightening.
Have a nice day!
If you want the most recent official Catholic document on justification, you will find it here:
Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification
14.The Lutheran churches and the Roman Catholic Church have together listened to the good news proclaimed in Holy Scripture. This common listening, together with the theological conversations of recent years, has led to a shared understanding of justification. This encompasses a consensus in the basic truths; the differing explications in particular statements are compatible with it.
15.In faith we together hold the conviction that justification is the work of the triune God. The Father sent his Son into the world to save sinners. The foundation and presupposition of justification is the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Christ. Justification thus means that Christ himself is our righteousness, in which we share through the Holy Spirit in accord with the will of the Father. Together we confess: By grace alone, in faith in Christ's saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works.[11]
16.All people are called by God to salvation in Christ. Through Christ alone are we justified, when we receive this salvation in faith. Faith is itself God's gift through the Holy Spirit who works through word and sacrament in the community of believers and who, at the same time, leads believers into that renewal of life which God will bring to completion in eternal life.
17.We also share the conviction that the message of justification directs us in a special way towards the heart of the New Testament witness to God's saving action in Christ: it tells us that as sinners our new life is solely due to the forgiving and renewing mercy that God imparts as a gift and we receive in faith, and never can merit in any way.
15.In faith we together hold the conviction that justification is the work of the triune God. The Father sent his Son into the world to save sinners. The foundation and presupposition of justification is the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Christ. Justification thus means that Christ himself is our righteousness, in which we share through the Holy Spirit in accord with the will of the Father. Together we confess: By grace alone, in faith in Christ's saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works.[11]
16.All people are called by God to salvation in Christ. Through Christ alone are we justified, when we receive this salvation in faith. Faith is itself God's gift through the Holy Spirit who works through word and sacrament in the community of believers and who, at the same time, leads believers into that renewal of life which God will bring to completion in eternal life.
17.We also share the conviction that the message of justification directs us in a special way towards the heart of the New Testament witness to God's saving action in Christ: it tells us that as sinners our new life is solely due to the forgiving and renewing mercy that God imparts as a gift and we receive in faith, and never can merit in any way.
Does that sound like "Salvation is by faith plus works" to you?
I'll respond to your other arguments later.
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