THE SABBATH TRUTH!

Word and Spirit said:

Which of the two is more important:

1. Believing in Jesus and loving your neighbor as yourself.
2. Keeping the Ten Commandments and especially keeping the Sabbath holy?

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The thing is, I'm not seeing
any difference between your two options.

Word and Spirit said:

What I found interesting about Acts 15 is that it seemed to me that the apostles to the Jews did not teach them how Jesus fulfilled many of the laws they kept observing - like feasts, days, circumcision, and dietary laws. Besides their outward apparel. It is obvious they kept the Ten Commandments plus all these other laws. And only added Jesus to the already established Hebrew religion.

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It is not obvious at all. (And, a little tip regarding discussion and debate: The use of words such "obvious" and "clearly" not only offensively suggests that people who see things otherwise are stupid, but it often betrays the lack of a better argument that needs no such embellishing hyperbole.)

Christ Himself taught the disciples night and day. Yet he was constantly compelled to rebuke them for their lack of faith and slowness to believe what he had taught them. And even after they received the outpouring of the Spirit at Pentecost, both Paul and Christ had to correct Peter. People return to their old, defective habits and patterns of thought all too often. There is no reason to assume the apostles had not taught the converted Jews correctly. I have heard good sermons that didn't make sense to me until years later.

Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. (1 Corinthians 10:12)

And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know. (1 Corinthians 8:2)

I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. (John 16:12)

Andre_b said:

If nothing of the Old Covenant is important then why did Paul and John specifically says to be imitators of Christ and WALK HOW HE WALKED?

And yet Luke called the Sabbath a commandment after the New Covenant was confirmed Luke 23:56

New Covenant: Luke 22:20
After the New Covenant Luke 23:56

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None of the disciples had the Holy Spirit indwelling them to know did they. Basing your belief on what some women did instead of what Jesus taught is grasping at straws. Jesus had not yet risen from the dead according to the sign of Jonah. Throughout Jesus' three year ministry He did nothing but teach the New Covenant of the Spirit. Not until the Day of Pentecost did it all become real to them.

Don't forget Jesus was fulfilling prophecy. He died as the Passover Lamb, but had not yet risen as the First Fruit, (the first day after the Sabbath, after the Passover.) Jesus was the first of many brethren.

Romans 8:29-30
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

What you should be most concerned about is do you have the Holy Spirit indwelling you to teach you from the inside (New), not the outside (Old).

Cshuffle777 said:

The thing is, I'm not seeing
any difference between your two options.

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Which is in submission to which. Jesus or the Sabbath.

Is Jesus in submission to the Sabbath.
Is the Sabbath commandment in submission to Jesus?

Word and Spirit said:

Which is in submission to which. Jesus or the Sabbath.

Is Jesus in submission to the Sabbath.
Is the Sabbath commandment in submission to Jesus?

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How could Jesus be in submission to something He created?
How could a law be in submission to anything or anyone?
A law is either in force or abrogated.
Who defined the relationship between Jesus and the Sabbath as being one of submission, one way or another?
That has to be some kind of logical fallacy.

Andre_b said:

Sounds like the same question the Pharisees asked Jesus...

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I don't give out too many Amens, because it seems like ganging up, but if I didn't give this an Amen, the rocks would just cry it out.

AMEN

Cshuffle777 said:

It is not obvious at all. (And, a little tip regarding discussion and debate: The use of words such "obvious" and "clearly" not only offensively suggests that people who see things otherwise are stupid, but it often betrays the lack of a better argument that needs no such embellishing hyperbole.)

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When the Pharisees that had come to Christ were telling the Gentiles they must be circumcised, isn't it obvious they believed that? Believe me, I personally do not mind you keeping the Sabbath, or even Sunday observers calling Sunday the Sabbath. To not do so would be a sin to either group, because we cannot go against our conscience. What is not of faith, is sin. I don't do either. My "observance" is every moment of every day.

But I do have a law within me I was taught as a child in the SDA Sabbath School, that is now a part of me. (I was recently talking to two other adult SDA's - one of them ex-SDA, that cannot break this "commandment" they were taught either.) Nothing can be put on top of a Bible except another Bible. So in church, I just can't stand it when I see others putting their bulletin, glasses, or keys on top of their Bible. To me, and my friends, it shows a lack of respect for the Word of God. It is very distracting.

I'm sure you are the same about your own pet commandment that is part of you - the Sabbath. You can't stand it when others do not keep it, just as I am about respecting the physical book called the Bible.

All I'm saying is I understand, and would not try to change your mind, just defending myself against your judgment of me and others, as I try not to judge those who have not been taught my pet commandment, and unknowingly trespass against it. I also know that I must immediately forgive them, so that the Father will forgive my own unknown trespasses that irk others against me.

Cshuffle777 said:

Christ Himself taught the disciples night and day. Yet he was constantly compelled to rebuke them for their lack of faith and slowness to believe what he had taught them. And even after they received the outpouring of the Spirit at Pentecost, both Paul and Christ had to correct Peter. People return to their old, defective habits and patterns of thought all too often. There is no reason to assume the apostles had not taught the converted Jews correctly. I have heard good sermons that didn't make sense to me until years later.

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When did Christ rebuke Peter after receiving the Spirit? As for Paul and Peter, I tend to hold Paul more at fault, as we see only respect from Peter written about Paul. And Peter didn't do anything that Paul didn't do himself.

1 Corinthians 9:
19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more; 20 and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law; 21 to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law; 22 to the weak I became as weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. 23 Now this I do for the gospel’s sake, that I may be partaker of it with you.

Cshuffle777 said:

How could Jesus be in submission to something He created?
How could a law be in submission to anything or anyone?
A law is either in force or abrogated.
Who defined the relationship between Jesus and the Sabbath as being one of submission, one way or another?
That has to be some kind of logical fallacy.

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We both respect the Sabbath.

You, the day given to the Jews.
I, what I believe it represents - rest in Jesus - God.

Word and Spirit said:

None of the disciples had the Holy Spirit indwelling them to know did they.

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Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: (John 20:21-22) (Since this was before Pentecost, we have no reference point to hem the Spirit in--Christ seemed to expect Nicodemus to know about the Holy spirit 3+ years earlier)

Word and Spirit said:

Basing your belief on what some women did instead of what Jesus taught is grasping at straws.

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Do you really think Sabbatarians base their belief on this passage alone?

For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: (Isaiah 28:10)

Word and Spirit said:

Jesus had not yet risen from the dead according to the sign of Jonah.

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I though the work was finished at the cross.

Word and Spirit said:

Throughout Jesus' three year ministry He did nothing but teach the New Covenant of the Spirit.

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New Covenant of the Spirit? Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you." (Luke 22:20) Jesus makes no mention of the Spirit here, not even in the context of this verse. I don't think he would have overlooked something so important if the subject was "The New Covenant of the Spirit."

Word and Spirit said:

Not until the Day of Pentecost did it all become real to them.

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What was the purpose of breathing the Holy Spirit upon them so many days before Pentecost?

Word and Spirit said:

Don't forget Jesus was fulfilling prophecy. He died as the Passover Lamb, but had not yet risen as the First Fruit, (the first day after the Sabbath, after the Passover.) Jesus was the first of many brethren.

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Again, was the work finished at the cross or upon His resurrection? I don't think we can have it both ways.

Word and Spirit said:

Romans 8:29-30
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

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Have you ever checked to see how many times you've quoted the apostle Paul as opposed to other scripture? It might be eye-opening. I find that Evangelicals tend to lean very heavily upon his work to make their points. Just a thought. All of the truly heretical among us quote him almost exclusively, and for good reason. Paul was an uber-genius ex-Pharisee who really had deep insight into the Gospel. So deep, in fact, that Peter warns to be careful not to twist what he writes to suit our own inclinations. (2 Peter 3:16)

Cshuffle777 said:

Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: (John 20:21-22) (Since this was before Pentecost, we have no reference point to hem the Spirit in--Christ seemed to expect Nicodemus to know about the Holy spirit 3+ years earlier)

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You are still missing it. Jesus had to RAISE FROM THE DEAD, before the Spirit to come. John 20 is one of the times He appeared to the disciples during the 40 days He remained before the ascension. But the disciples still didn't have the power of the Holy Spirit until Pentecost. There are two fillings we must have to be fully equipped.

Apostles two fillings:
John 20
Acts 2

Other disciples fillings:
Acts 2
Acts 4

Two fillings:
Mark 16:16-18
1 Corinthians 12

Cshuffle777 said:

New Covenant of the Spirit? Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you." (Luke 22:20) Jesus makes no mention of the Spirit here, not even in the context of this verse. I don't think he would have overlooked something so important if the subject was "The New Covenant of the Spirit."

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The Sabbath was the sign of the Old Covenant.
The Cup is the sign of the New Covenant.

2 Corinthians 3:7-11:

The Ten Commandments was called the ministry of death.

The New Covenant is called the ministry of the Spirit.

Word and Spirit said:

When the Pharisees that had come to Christ were telling the Gentiles they must be circumcised, isn't it obvious they believed that? Believe me, I personally do not mind you keeping the Sabbath, or even Sunday observers calling Sunday the Sabbath. To not do so would be a sin to either group, because we cannot go against our conscience. What is not of faith, is sin. I don't do either. My "observance" is every moment of every day.

But I do have a law within me I was taught as a child in the SDA Sabbath School, that is now a part of me. (I was recently talking to two other adult SDA's - one of them ex-SDA, that cannot break this "commandment" they were taught either.) Nothing can be put on top of a Bible except another Bible. So in church, I just can't stand it when I see others putting their bulletin, glasses, or keys on top of their Bible. To me, and my friends, it shows a lack of respect for the Word of God. It is very distracting.

I'm sure you are the same about your own pet commandment that is part of you - the Sabbath. You can't stand it when others do not keep it, just as I am about respecting the physical book called the Bible.

All I'm saying is I understand, and would not try to change your mind, just defending myself against your judgment of me and others, as I try not to judge those who have not been taught my pet commandment, and unknowingly trespass against it. I also know that I must immediately forgive them, so that the Father will forgive my own unknown trespasses that irk others against me.



When did Christ rebuke Peter after receiving the Spirit? As for Paul and Peter, I tend to hold Paul more at fault, as we see only respect from Peter written about Paul. And Peter didn't do anything that Paul didn't do himself.

1 Corinthians 9:
19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more; 20 and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law; 21 to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law; 22 to the weak I became as weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. 23 Now this I do for the gospel’s sake, that I may be partaker of it with you.

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Another thing I've noticed is that, to those who do not keep the Sabbath, warnings against disobeying God is nearly always called "judgment." it's really odd to me, because the only kind of judgment (and there are many different kinds) that I could even try to perpetrate on someone would be that of condemnation, which I have never done in my life. But I am constantly accused of this. It doesn't even offend me anymore. It does, however, make me very anxious for my accusers' sakes, because I fear God may deal with them harshly one day because of it. Also, I worry that the mindset of being quick to accuse someone of "judgment" is dangerous in general.

If I were intent upon judging or condemning someone in the context of the Sabbath, I would say something like "You don't love God because you break His 4th commandment," which I would never do because, frankly, I don't believe that about you. If anything, you just haven't had the Holy Spirit reveal to you the beauty of that part of His character. This is the case for everyone, I believe. Whether you've been an Adventist for 50 years and left the church or you've simply never heard of the Sabbath at all. Makes no difference. The problem is always the same. It extends to other commandments and sins as well. Every sin that was ever committed (even the 1st one) was due to a distorted perception of the character of God (even if only momentary).

I just realized I've been terribly wrong about something. I stated at an earlier time that angels had no need for a Sabbath and adultery commandment. I was wrong about both of them, perhaps. I just realized that angels live in linear time just like we do and so they might just need a frequent pause to gaze upon God's beauty intently. They also (even though Christ said they do not procreate) probably have a need for some kind of intimacy and loyalty among themselves.

Well, there you go. I was wrong about something, and you heard it here first.

And you're quite incorrect about your assumption that I have a "pet commandment," which is probably closely related to what I just related above. If I were cornered and had to name a favorite commandment, it would be simple: The first. To love God supremely and have no other gods before Him. I could go on and on about that one. And in a way that would probably surprise you. Unfortunately, that is not my duty as an especially-called Seventh-day Adventist. I find it surprising that anyone would frequently visit a thread called "THE SABBATH TRUTH" and expect not to be warned about breaking the 4th commandment.

Word and Spirit said:

We both respect the Sabbath.

You, the day given to the Jews.
I, what I believe it represents - rest in Jesus - God.

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But the Sabbath is not generic rest in Jesus (unless you base your belief on one text, which you were careful earlier to warn Sabbatarians not to do). It is the 7th day of the weekly cycle that has no other reference point but the one God gave it at the end of the earth's creation. The Hebrew word for the Sabbath is often translated to "week" or some form thereof.

Word and Spirit said:

You are still missing it. Jesus had to RAISE FROM THE DEAD, before the Spirit to come. John 20 is one of the times He appeared to the disciples during the 40 days He remained before the ascension. But the disciples still didn't have the power of the Holy Spirit until Pentecost. There are two fillings we must have to be fully equipped.

Apostles two fillings:
John 20
Acts 2

Other disciples fillings:
Acts 2
Acts 4

Two fillings:
Mark 16:16-18
1 Corinthians 12

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Unrelated texts. Faulty hermeneutics.

Cshuffle777 said:

Another thing I've noticed is that, to those who do not keep the Sabbath, warnings against disobeying God is nearly always called "judgment." it's really odd to me, because the only kind of judgment (and there are many different kinds) that I could even try to perpetrate on someone would be that of condemnation, which I have never done in my life. But I am constantly accused of this. It doesn't even offend me anymore. It does, however, make me very anxious for my accusers' sakes, because I fear God may deal with them harshly one day because of it. Also, I worry that the mindset of being quick to accuse someone of "judgment" is dangerous in general.

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That is because of WHO it specifically represents.

Cshuffle777 said:

If I were intent upon judging or condemning someone in the context of the Sabbath, I would say something like "You don't love God because you break His 4th commandment," which I would never do because, frankly, I don't believe that about you. If anything, you just haven't had the Holy Spirit reveal to you the beauty of that part of His character. This is the case for everyone, I believe. Whether you've been an Adventist for 50 years and left the church or you've simply never heard of the Sabbath at all. Makes no difference. The problem is always the same. It extends to other commandments and sins as well. Every sin that was ever committed (even the 1st one) was due to a distorted perception of the character of God (even if only momentary).

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Thank you. I like you too.

I wouldn't be who I am today if I didn't have SDA as my background. Strict obedience is part of being a true Christian. I obey the Holy Spirit within me, and His Word. You observe the Ten Commandments and the 4th commandment is keeping the 7th day as the Sabbath, not Sunday. Sunday is not the Sabbath. But as the Sabbath was the sign of the Old Covenant it is not something that can become part of our nature that we don't have to have had outside instruction on to keep, like the other moral laws that can be written on the heart and manifested through love. BTW, the moral laws about each other are the only ones Jesus ever mentioned to the rich young ruler, as did James.

Cshuffle777 said:

Unrelated texts. Faulty hermeneutics.

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No, you just never put them together before. Acts 4 are the same people as in Acts 2. Jesus already blew on the apostles, so why did he tell them to WAIT for the power of the Holy Spirit.

"Faulty hermeneutics" is a direct accusation, something like "obvious" you don't like against yourself.

Word and Spirit said:

The Sabbath was the sign of the Old Covenant.
The Cup is the sign of the New Covenant.

2 Corinthians 3:7-11:

The Ten Commandments was called the ministry of death.

The New Covenant is called the ministry of the Spirit.

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Just swerve and spin. The ministry of death is only so if one thinks they are saved by keeping the commandments. You didn't even address my comment.

Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good. (Romans 7:12)

This disparity is in Logic called "paradox" and it cannot be brushed aside. It must be dealt with in the Bible, or the skeptics will be justified in calling it contradiction.

Why can't antinomianism be defended apart from the Pauline epistles?

Cshuffle777 said:

Just swerve and spin. The ministry of death is only so if one thinks they are saved by keeping the commandments. You didn't even address my comment.

Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good. (Romans 7:12)

This disparity is in Logic called "paradox" and it cannot be brushed aside. It must be dealt with in the Bible, or the skeptics will be justified in calling it contradiction.

Why can't antinomianism be defended apart from the Pauline epistles?

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Read the next verse, 13, and you will see why Jesus had to come.

Word and Spirit said:

But as the Sabbath was the sign of the Old Covenant it is not something that can become part of our nature that we don't have to have had outside instruction on to keep, like the other moral laws that can be written on the heart and manifested through love.

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John Bunyan wrote a book about this and it has one very distinct flaw. Can you guess what it was?

Word and Spirit said:

BTW, the moral laws about each other are the only ones Jesus ever mentioned to the rich young ruler, as did James.

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The law of validity by repetition. Bunk. No precedent or principle involved.

Word and Spirit said:

Jesus already blew on the apostles, so why did he tell them to WAIT for the power of the Holy Spirit.

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You tell me. The whole "no understanding 'til Pentecost" thing was your idea, not mine.

Word and Spirit said:

"Faulty hermeneutics" is a direct accusation, something like "obvious" you don't like against yourself.

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It doesn't take much to offend you, does it? I don't care if you chant "obvious" all day long. Pointing out an error in interpretation is not a "direct accusation." Try to remain calm.

Cshuffle777 said:

Why can't antinomianism be defended apart from the Pauline epistles?

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Antinomianism is a false doctrine. It cannot be defended by the New Covenant.