Does believing Genesis is wrong make me a bad Christian?

K Watt

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Nobody can disprove what has been proven, obviously. Proof is everywhere that the whole world and all of nature evolved over billions of years, not less than a week. Mass extinctions including the biggest flood in world history are known to have occurred hundreds of millions of years prior to the existence of humans, especially homo sapiens - the last remaining species. I simply cannot for the life of me believe what the Bible says about the Creation and timing of the Great Flood, at least in terms of being the worst ever, is more accurate than what scientists discover. But in my heart I believe the Bible is God's Word and believe in miracles, so I don't want to feel like I am betraying Him in favor of sinners. Am I screwed up about my religion?


Traditionally, there are four senses of Scripture, which are outlined in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, nos. 115-119:

  1. Literal Sense: [T]he meaning conveyed by the words of Scripture (Catechism, no. 116), the actual event, person, thing described in the biblical text. The literal sense gives rise to the following three spiritual senses.
  2. Allegorical Sense: How those things, events, or persons in the literal sense point to Christ and the Paschal Mystery.
  3. Moral Sense: How the literal sense points to the Christian life in the Church.
  4. Anagogical Sense: How the literal sense points to the Christians heavenly destiny and the last things.
 
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GodsGrace101

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Briefly, as a geologist with published research in paleontology, I just wanted a briefly touch on two items above.

The first being the following statement:
"It deals with history, which is not subject to investigation by experimentation."

Some might say that geology deals with earth history and therefore is not subject to experimentation. But in actuality, the rocks of today, and observation of them, do allow us to understand the past with use of experimentation.

And I'll give an analogy.

The study of mountains for example, in geology, is actually very similar to studying vehicle collisions.

View attachment 278017

Imagine if there are vehicles smashed against one another. And you can see this. This is kind of how geologists look at mountains.

And the physics and chemistry of how a car breaks when it collides, is similar to chemistry and physics of how mountains and rocks break and collide.

And just as someone can use a model to reverse engineer a car that is broken, you can actually do the same with mountains.

And when it comes to testing, rocks break in very specific ways. Pull them apart and they break at high angles (60 degrees) in a normal fault Horst/graben fashion. Press them together and they break at low angles (30 degree) and tend to ride on top of one another.

Certain rocks also only form at certain temperatures. Some rocks only form at literally several hundred degrees while others only form at extremely high pressures (like having the weight of a mountain on top of it).

Rocks also have brittle and ductile points of change/failure. Just like a plastic ruler, you can bend it only so much before it fails, and if you put a ruler in an oven, it can bend much more before failing. Rocks work the same way, and by examining how much rocks have bent, broken or were heated, we can further discern details about their history.

View attachment 278018

And so, we can actually do many experiments looking at things like: this is how these rocks break, this is their melting point, this is the angle they're fractured at and this is the direction they have moved (and continue to move at), and with that, we can actually use experiments to understand the past.

Just as we can run experiments on car parts and can see: here is the temperature that car parts melt at here are the angles that they're broken, here are temperatures that they formed at.

We can even look at things like fossil foot tracks to determine what direction was historically "up". Which can tell exactly how certain rocks turned or flipped, and we can collectively use this information to "rewind time" to reconstruct geologic historical events with extremely high precision.

Obviously we can also look at fossils to learn a lot. Find a field of 50 plus dinosaur nests and burrows and it becomes quite clear that a passage of time occurred at the particular layer being observed. And it isn't hard to replay history of nest building or burrowing in your head.

And there is just one other item I wanted to comment on:

"In ''Evolution: A Theory in Crisis,'' for example, Michael Denton methodically analyzes a wealth of evidence that challenges this theory. "

Michael Denton actually isn't a paleontologist and his works on paleontology are actually quite limited in the extent of information he provides, particularly in the book noted above. I suppose the same goes for anatomy. You're much better off reading books written by paleontologists on the topic, such as Donald Prothero, Neil Shubin, or Spencer G. Lucas.

Ultimately what I am trying to say is that, a time machine isn't necessary to understand what happened in the past. A time machine would help with murder forensic investigations, but it's not actually mandatory to conduct testing and investigation and to come to a conclusion about how past events occurred. Especially in cases where evidence for who committed the crime is overwhelming.

As geologists, we are very confident in our understanding of what we see. Very confident both in an ancient earth an in the fossil succession, to the extent that we would simply refer to it as "certainty". Just as we are certain that rocks are hard and pillows are soft, or that water freezes at 0 degrees, or that aluminum crumbles when squeezed. We know what we see and what we see is very clear.

So then we are left with this burning question. How does this "appearance" of an ancient earth fit in with scripture? Is the appearance false, like a veil pulled over our eyes? Was earth created to look old, like a trick? Or do we need to investigate our interpretation of the early chapters of the book of Genesis?
You need to study the interpretation of scripture.
Genesis, although agreeing with science in many ways,,,is not a history book. I don't know why this is not understood.

Do snakes talk?
Is there a place on earth where two angels are standing guard with flame torches over some land?

Jewish Rabbi's do not understand Genesis to be literal but is in the bible to teach us something.
There are many stories like this in that region of the world (I mean in the same time period) there are many stories about floods.
 
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Job 33:6

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You need to study the interpretation of scripture.
Genesis, although agreeing with science in many ways,,,is not a history book. I don't know why this is not understood.

Do snakes talk?
Is there a place on earth where two angels are standing guard with flame torches over some land?

Jewish Rabbi's do not understand Genesis to be literal but is in the bible to teach us something.
There are many stories like this in that region of the world (I mean in the same time period) there are many stories about floods.

I agree that the next step is to investigate interpretations of scripture.

So then we fall into our two camps.

With some saying, well, Genesis describes creation in 6 days and it says what it says. A day is a day and a day is 24 hours, so the case is closed and what scientists are saying they see, must be a trick, or Satan must be involved, or they must just be wrong.

While the other side suggesting an old earth is saying, well I know what i see in earth and what I have seen with my own two eyes. So the interpretation must be something non-literal ( whatever that may be).

But there's one more question that goes along with this. For the non-literalists. How can we trust what we see with our eyes, even in the face of scripture which when taken literally, uses the word day, which usually means 24 hours?

I believe that without trusting in what we see, we have nothing. Without trusting in what we see, we don't know if there is truly a sidewalk outside, or if we will fall into a black hole during our walk. Without trusting in what we see, we wouldn't be able to go to the supermarket, as it may not be real and the food may not exist.

We wouldn't even be able to trust in scripture if we didn't believe in what we could see. The apostles perhaps wouldn't even believe Jesus existed, had they not seen him. Indeed we couldn't even read scripture if we didn't believe that the book we could see, scripture, existed at all.

Fundamentally, we have no choice but to trust in what we see, which is why 99.99% of geologists accept an earth millions and even billions of years old. As a geologist but more importantly as a Christian, I have no choice but to believe the earth is old and I have no choice but to consider non-literal interpretations of Genesis, even in the face of theologians or biblical scholars who might say otherwise.

And some might say, well I trust in what I see, and I see that scripture says creation occurred in 6 days.

But in actuality, in the most absolutely literal sense, when we read scripture, what we actually are seeing is literally ink on paper. The rest is in our minds. And so we have a case of "does the sidewalk really exist" versus "is my thought, in my mind, what really exists?"

And how do we know that the sidewalk actually exists? We've tested that sidewalk thousands of times. We've beat that dead horse to extreme extents, it just is what it is.

Ideally thought and mind should align with physical reality, but if they don't, we have to make a choice on which to change. But or course, only 1 of the two can be changed. We can change our mind.

And remember that it's never a question of what God can or cannot do, it is a question of what God did or did not do. God could make the planet in a single second if God so chose to. God could make earth in a trillion trillion years as well. God could do anything, but it just isn't about what God can or cannot do. It's a question of what God did do.
 
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GodLovesCats

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Thank you for your input Koma - and being a Christian geologist.

When we read ink on paper, that is all we see. We need to interpret the text. If you are reading a fictional story, nothing is real. But all that changes if you look at the real things. What if someone said Earth is flat now, when every photograph shows it is a sphere, just because Genesis does not describe the planet as a giant ball? Imagine someone claiming there is no continental drift after seeing how two continents (Africa and South America) fit perfectly like jigsaw puzzle pieces.
 
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nolidad

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You are confused. Paleontologists do not claim microbes of any sort directly became humans. I never understood why evolution deniers think that is the only meaning of macroevolution. One creature could be the ancestor of all mammals, one of all fish, one of all birds, etc. without one cell being the single ancestor of all animals. Various species became extinct and had no kind of descendants. So you can believe in macroevolution without accepting one ancestor to all living and dead things.

Well then let me tell you what your hypothesis is that you believe in. Life mysteriously happened somehow on earth approx 650 million years ago (unless that has changed). It was simple single cell microbes or whatever else they wish to call them. Then over the course of hundreds of millions of years through random undesigned mutations preserved by natural selection those microbes changed and branched into two kingdoms: flora and fauna! Then over the course of time with all them mutations occuring, those once simple microbes were the progenitors of all life on earth as we know it! Of course microbes didn't become man- but they are the original parents of all life if you believe that hypothesis.
 
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nolidad

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Read post no. 77
It'll explain some stuff.
There's much more but you can find out for yourself.
There's a lot of non-history in the O.T.
You figure snakes spoke back then?

Well He made Baalams donkey to speak. And Satan possessed the serpent so why not? Do you believe God parted the REd Sea? Do you believe that a man drained of blood could self rise in three days?
Do you believe a man can take 5 loaves and two fishes and feed as many as 20,000 people???

Is anything to difficult for God?
 
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nolidad

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The ultra-literalists May be very prevalent on messageboards. In the wider society, I don't think they are that numerous.

We are not ultra literalists. Just literalists. And yes we are the minority amongst christians. Most believing Christians believe in some form of theistic evolution. But empirical science shows BB/TOE is scientifically impossible and gives more support for special divine young creation.
 
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Rach-17

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▶ Tradition VS Bible: The Gap Theory - YouTube (With images) | The bible movie, Perry stone, Bible

If you don't want to feel like you're betraying him, then, "Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight", Proverbs 3:5-6. Who are we to question the validity of the Word of God? God's power and love surpass all human understanding. So if you say you believe in Jesus Christ, then it should not be hard to believe that he made the earth and all that is in it. Compared to the vastness of the universe, a universe in which humans can not even fathom its end, how can the same God not create a relatively small planet in six days? We must remember that God's ways are higher than our own. He will not reveal all his mysteries until the time is right. Genesis is not the only place in the bible where the proof of earth's creation can be found. A mystery, more often than not, is solved like a puzzle. There can be different pieces scattered everywhere. Just as there are different books in the bible that spoke of the coming of Jesus Christ, there are also different places that refer to the creation of the earth. So to say that creationism is not really true just based on what you read in Genesis is an erroneous assumption. You can't say something is not true if you don't have everything in full grasp.

In any case, can anyone, even men of God who have studied the Bible for years, have the perfect answer? Maybe, or maybe not. But in all honesty, these things should not matter that much. As believers, we need to balance our walk in Christ between the actual fundamental relationship with him and the studying of his word. As it says in Proverbs 25:27, " It is not good to eat too much honey, nor is it honorable to search out matters that are too deep." Getting into a single thing too deeply will make us lose track of our true purpose, which is to love the Lord with all of our heart, all of our soul, all of our being, and all of our strength.

Scientists. Humans. What do we know about the things which we have not seen? The difference between scientists and every other person is that they are given an education, tools, resources, and teachings that are meant to set them up to build up presuppositions and theories that are meant to make it seem that humans know everything. I don't know about everyone else, but putting faith in Christ is the better option for me at least. I mean, there are scientists who even claim that we, and everything, evolved from rocks!! I guess that's why they think that:). But in all seriousness, their own intelligence, not logic, proves that they could not have evolved from rocks.

Anyways, a cool Pastor John Hagee said: Bible...

Basic
Information
Before
Leaving
Earth

Let's remember fellow brothers and sisters: THIS EARTH IS NOT OUR HOME!!!
 
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Rach-17

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Well He made Baalams donkey to speak. And Satan possessed the serpent so why not? Do you believe God parted the REd Sea? Do you believe that a man drained of blood could self rise in three days?
Do you believe a man can take 5 loaves and two fishes and feed as many as 20,000 people???

Is anything to difficult for God?
AMEN!!
 
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Tra Phull

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OK, so there are plain literalists and there are ultra-literalists. The ultra-literalists include at least the Flat Earthers - those who hold that despite the fact that there are numerous photos from space showing a globe earth.

I believe, as you say most believing Christians do - in some form of old earth creationism. BB/TOE is a designation I am unfamiliar with.

I have been frequenting Christian messageboards for 20 years; only in the last 2 have I encountered Flat Earthers.

As to the other plain literalists, I would say that I definitely do NOT see or ever saw anything that proved old earth creationism as "scientifically impossible".

Quite the contrary, I feel that the dating mechanisms that say dinosaurs were present 65-70 million years ago would have to be grossly inaccurate on an outlandish scale to rule out old earth creationism.

I have stayed out of this sub-forum - entering only because I saw a thread where a Christian asks, rhetorically or not, whether they are a "bad Christian" by not being a literalist concerning early chapters of Genesis.

In this very thread I have seen literalists commenting that not being literalist makes one "deceived by atheists, of the devil, and words to that effect" - which is sheer nonsense.
 
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Job 33:6

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I think people have to acknowledge that when they say "God can do anything, so why can't he make earth in 6 days?", they should also acknowledge that God can make an old earth as well.

Suggesting that theistic evolutionists or Old Earth Creationists believe that God is limited in power and can't make a young earth is really just a strawman. Because It has never been a question of what God is able to do. It is a question of what God did do.
 
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hedrick

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I recall getting into it with a fundamentalist on CF one time. He insisted that Christians had to believe in a literal 6-day creation to be saved because the Bible days that’s what happened. Yet when I asked him whether he believed that the elements of Communion were the Body and Blood of Jesus he said, no of course not even though the Bible says this is my Body, this is my Blood. So these people are picking and choosing what parts of the Bible to take literally, they just won’t admit it.
This may be a satisfying debating strategy, but it's misleading exegesis. There's no reason to think the Gen 1 - 3 is symbolic. We may take it to be non-historical, but still think there are things in it of value. We may think it's a myth, that the people who told it knew wasn't accurate, but preserved because of it's theological message. But still, from a literary point of view it's straight narrative. Maybe fiction or myth, but it's not allegorical or metaphorical. It's not like Jesus saying he is the door, which is an obvious metaphor, or the parable of the weeds, where (at least according to the interpretation given) weed symbolize things that crowd out the Christian life. The earth, the sun and moon, etc, are simply themselves, and seven days are simply seven days.

However those who don't understand "this is my body" literally think that it's just as obvious a metaphor as "I am the door." Thus it's not, as Genesis, that we think it's an ancient idea that we can no longer understand as historical, or something that was known at the time to be mythological. Rather, we think he obviously intended a figure of speech.
 
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Archivist

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This may be a satisfying debating strategy, but it's misleading exegesis. There's no reason to think the Gen 1 - 3 is symbolic. We may take it to be non-historical, but still think there are things in it of value. We may think it's a myth, that the people who told it knew wasn't accurate, but preserved because of it's theological message. But still, from a literary point of view it's straight narrative. It's not like Jesus saying he is the door, which is an obvious metaphor, or the parable of the weeds, where (at least according to the interpretation given) weed symbolize things that crowd out the Christian life. The earth, the sun and moon, etc, are simply themselves, and seven days are simply seven days.

However those who don't understand "this is my body" literally think that it's just as obvious a metaphor as "I am the door." Thus it's not, as Genesis, that we think Jesus is giving us an ancient idea that we can no longer understand as historical. Rather, we think he obviously intended a figure of speech.
And you are entitled to your own interpretation. At least you aren’t saying that it is a salvation issue.

Jesus obviously meant it as a figure of speech? Sorry, that isn’t in my Bible.
 
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Jonaitis

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Nobody can disprove what has been proven, obviously. Proof is everywhere that the whole world and all of nature evolved over billions of years, not less than a week. Mass extinctions including the biggest flood in world history are known to have occurred hundreds of millions of years prior to the existence of humans, especially homo sapiens - the last remaining species. I simply cannot for the life of me believe what the Bible says about the Creation and timing of the Great Flood, at least in terms of being the worst ever, is more accurate than what scientists discover. But in my heart I believe the Bible is God's Word and believe in miracles, so I don't want to feel like I am betraying Him in favor of sinners. Am I screwed up about my religion?

In other words, you don't believe in the bible. Yes, that's a huge problem if you claim to be a Christian. You can't say you believe it if you only believe parts of it.

You have chosen to believe a narrative written by fallible men rather than take God at his own word.
 
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In other words, you don't believe in the bible. Yes, that's a huge problem if you claim to be a Christian. You can't say you believe it if you only believe parts of it.

You have chosen to believe a narrative written by fallible men rather than take God at his own word.
Just out of curiosity do you believe that the elements of Holy Communion are the Body and Blood of Jesus?
 
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hedrick

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If they aren't then the only other influence that minimizes the Bible is that of the devil who inserts unbelief into anyone's mind who's willing to accept it.
So there's no way a different understanding of the Bible can possibly exist except that the person is under the influence of atheism or the devil? This is an attack on a person's motivation rather than a rational defense of your idea. That's the very definition of an ad hominem attack.
 
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hedrick

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Jesus obviously meant it as a figure of speech? Sorry, that isn’t in my Bible.
The problem with metaphors is that they aren't labelled. They aren't in a separate color, or underlined. You detect a metaphor because a literal reading doesn't make sense, but there's a sensible non-literal meaning. Saying that Jesus is a piece of bread is an example of something that makes no sense literally but has a very reasonable non-literal meaning.

I'm fine with the Lutheran understanding that Jesus is present in and under the bread and wine. But that's not a literal reading.
 
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The problem with metaphors is that they aren't labelled. They aren't in a separate color, or underlined. You detect a metaphor because a literal reading doesn't make sense, but there's a sensible non-literal meaning. Saying that Jesus is a piece of bread is an example of something that makes no sense literally but has a very reasonable non-literal meaning.

I'm fine with the Lutheran understanding that Jesus is present in and under the bread and wine. But that's not a literal reading.
Allegories such as the two differing Genesis accounts are also not labeled as such.
 
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