The Demise of Evolution

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roman2819

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Did you not notice that I said that I was not a mythicist? That does not mean that I make the error of reading the Bible literally. People often believe things that are not true. True believers keep believing even when shown to be wrong. Just look at all of the people that still follow Trump. There probably was a man name Jesus. He probably had followers. But that is all that there is even weak evidence for. The only claims of people seeing him after he was crucified were other true believers. There are no reliable sources for that claim at all. For example the claim of "500 witnesses" was made by Paul who never saw Jesus himself. I could make a claim that 500 people saw my uncle Jimmy rise from the dead. That would not be very believable.

You are making superficial comparisons using Trump and Jimmy,. You arfe also avoiding or ignoring the otehr points I mentioned earlier. Care to comment on them?
 
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Speedwell

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You are making superficial comparisons using Trimp and Jimmy,. You arfe also avoiding or ignoring the otehr points I mentioned earlier. Care to comment on them?
Care to address this fact...

There probably was a man name Jesus. He probably had followers. But that is all that there is even weak evidence for. The only claims of people seeing him after he was crucified were other true believers. There are no reliable sources for that claim at all.
...and explain why as a Christian you find it troublesome?
 
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Subduction Zone

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You are making superficial comparisons using Trimp and Jimmy,. You arfe also avoiding or ignoring the otehr points I mentioned earlier. Care to comment on them?
"Trimp and Jimmy"? What are you talking about? But let's go over another of your claims. There is only somewhat reliable evidence for Peter and Paul facing death as a result of their preaching. There is no reliable evidence that I know of other apostles being executed. Nor are there examples of any of them given a choice to reject Jesus and live. Those appear to be tales that grew after the fact.
 
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roman2819

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"Trimp and Jimmy"? What are you talking about? But let's go over another of your claims. There is only somewhat reliable evidence for Peter and Paul facing death as a result of their preaching. There is no reliable evidence that I know of other apostles being executed. Nor are there examples of any of them given a choice to reject Jesus and live. Those appear to be tales that grew after the fact.


If you manage to convince yourself that there were no severe life or death perscutions against Christians during the apsotles' generation - even though credible secular historical described such persecuions - then the next time you see a small church, call it a fast food drive-through restaurant.

If you could lie to yourself that thousands of Jews didn't see Jesus did miracles, but could chose to just believe in the 150 disciples who claimed the saw Jesus after the resurrection - and these believers even chose to die for their belief under persecutions - then the next time you see a big church, tell yourself that it float down from moon to earth.

Do you really believe that when the roman historian Josephus was writing records, everyone that he spoke to was lying about a Jesus that never exist or never did miracles, but these people in Judea, Galiee and Samarai told Josephus that Jesus cured the sick, raised the dead and exorcised demons? If you manage to say you believe that they all lied to Josepus, then tell yourself that the entire history of humanty was a lie.
 
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roman2819

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Care to address this fact why you find this troublesome .... "There probably was a man name Jesus. He probably had followers. But that is all that there is even weak evidence for. The only claims of people seeing him after he was crucified were other true believers. There are no reliable sources for that claim at all.?

You ask the most unbelievable silly question (pardon my frankness). You are asking me why do @Subduction Zone allegations bother me? Let me answer you first: If someone make false claims about you or about something you believe in, should you just choose to agree? Why wpuld you do that unless you really didn;t have conviction about your belief?

Your question was incredulous because you imply that I should just accept the "possiblity" that Jesus might only has a small band of followerrs 2000 years ago, that it is possible because we were not there, we didn't see, we don't know ... so lets act stupid or clever.

What @Subduction Zone or yourself or @Kylie @pitabread etc etc said does not bother me because the truth stands the test of time, Christianity survive persuctions and it can survive trivial superdficial clever arguments. What I am doing is really just stating my beliefs and reasons I believe.

What I told @Subduction Zone in the post #1824 before this can apply to you too, which are:

If you manage to convince yourself that there were no severe life or death perscutions against Christians during the apsotles' generation - even though credible secular historical described such persecutions - then the next time you see a small church, call it a fast food drive-through restaurant.

If you could lie to yourself that thousands of Jews didn't see Jesus did miracles, but could chose to just believe in the 150 disciples who claimed the saw Jesus after the resurrection - and these believers even chose to die for their convictions under persecutions - then the next time you see a big church, then tell yourself that it float down from moon to earth.

Do you really believe that when the roman historian Josephus was writing records, everyone in Judea, Galiee and Samarai that he spoke to was lying about a Jesus that never exist or never did miracles, but these people told Josephus that Jesus cured the sick, raised the dead and exorcised demons (if he didn't)? If you manage to say you believe that they all lied to Josephus, then tell yourself that the entire hostory of humanty was a lie.
 
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Subduction Zone

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If you manage to convince yourself that there were no severe life or death perscutions against Christians during the apsotles' generation - even though credible secular historical described such persecuions - then teh next time you see a small chuch, call it a fast food drive-through restaurant.

If you could lie to yourself that thousands of Jews didn't see Jesus did miracles, but could chose to just believe in the 150 disciples who claimed the saw Jesus after the resurrection, then the next time you see a big church, then tell yourself that it float down from moon to earth.

Do you really believe that when the roman historian Josephus was writing records of history, everyone that he spoke to was lying about a Jesus that never exist or never did miracles, but these people told Josephus that Jesus cured the sick, raised the dead and exorcised demons? If you manage to say you believe that they all lied to Josepus, then tell yourself that the entire history of humanty was a lie.
You have it backwards. And you are misrepresenting the arguments of others, admitting that you are wrong by doing so.

Josephus seems to only know that Jesus existed. He barely mentions the man,and considering how much he wrote over his lifetime that is quite telling. One of the two mentions has been determined to be a fake, it is considered to be fallacious by modern scholars. That is the Testimonium Flavavium. That is the one that claims he was the Messiah. It is thought to have an honest core, that Jesus was crucified. The second one. The one that says he was called "Christ" (which only tells us that he was anointed) and was the brother of James. There does not appear to be any mention of miracles etc. by Jesus.

Where is your evidence of countless witnesses to his work? Where is your evidence of early Christian martyrs that were given the chance to renounce Jesus?


Josephus on Jesus - Wikipedia
 
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Speedwell

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You ask the most unbelievable silly question (pardon my frankness). You are asking me why do @Subduction Zone allegations bother me? Let me answer you first: If someone make false claims about you or about something you believe in, should you just choose to agree? Why wpuld you do that unless you really didn;t have conviction about your belief?
What false claims? I agree with SubductionZone and it doesn't disturb my faith in Christ or the truth of His Gospel. Why does it disturb you? What we are talking about here is not the truth of the Christian faith but the reliability of the documentary evidence for it.

Your question was incredulous because you imply that I should just accept the "possiblity" that Jesus might only has a small band of followerrs 2000 years ago, that it is possible because we were not there, we didn't see, we don't know ... so lets act stupid or clever.

What @Subduction Zone or yourself or @Kylie @pitabread etc etc said does not bother me because the truth stands the test of time, Christianity survive persuctions and it can survive trivial superdficial clever arguments. What I am doing is really just stating my beliefs and reasons I believe.
You believe on the basis of documentary evidence?

What I told @Subduction Zone in the post #1824 before this can apply to you too, which are:

If you manage to convince yourself that there were no severe life or death perscutions against Christians during the apsotles' generation - even though credible secular historical described such persecutions - then the next time you see a small church, call it a fast food drive-through restaurant.

If you could lie to yourself that thousands of Jews didn't see Jesus did miracles, but could chose to just believe in the 150 disciples who claimed the saw Jesus after the resurrection - and these believers even chose to die for their convictions under persecutions - then the next time you see a big church, then tell yourself that it float down from moon to earth.

Do you really believe that when the roman historian Josephus was writing records, everyone in Judea, Galiee and Samarai that he spoke to was lying about a Jesus that never exist or never did miracles, but these people told Josephus that Jesus cured the sick, raised the dead and exorcised demons (if he didn't)? If you manage to say you believe that they all lied to Josephus, then tell yourself that the entire hostory of humanty was a lie.
Why do you leap immediately to the alternative that what people told Josephus must be "lies" rather than something they believed to be true themselves?
 
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driewerf

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I did once remember hearing an interview with a Christian on the radio. She said that she did not believe in God when she was younger. She said that due to serious problems she had, she decided to kill herself. She went to a pharmacy and asked if they sold poison. When the pharmacy asked what sort of poison she wanted, she said 'something that will kill a large animal'. The pharmacy sold her something, and the woman returned home and drank it. She said that the poison had no effect on her whatsoever, and she said that she believes that God protected her. Without being prompted she because defensive and said that some people might say that the pharmacist was suspicious and gave her something that wasn't a poison. But, the lady on the radio said that she was sure that it was real poison and that it was God who saved her, i.e. a miracle.

@Strathos - is that the sort of evidence you mean?
A creationist could run with that story and claim that it is undeniable proof that humans aren't animals and thus created in the image of god -- praise the lord and burn all the evolution textbooks.
 
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roman2819

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Speedwell

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@Subduction Zone @Speedwell :

The more fundamental question should be: Where does your allegation come from? Why do you believe what you just said or claim about Jesus' existence and followers?
From the written records; Josephus, for example, from the Gospels taken as historical documents.
 
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roman2819

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..... Why do you leap immediately to the alternative that what people told Josephus must be "lies" rather than something they believed to be true themselves?

My question was: Could everyone in the region (Galilee, Judea, Samrai, Jerusalem etc) lie to Joesphus that there was a man called Jesus and he did many miracles?

ie when Josephus asked people about Jesus, were they telling him about a person that did not exist or did not do miracles, was not brought to trial before Pilate Pontius, and was not crucified ?
 
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Speedwell

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My question was: Could everyone in the region (Galilee, Judea, Samrai, Jerusalem etc) lie to Joesphus that there was a man called Jesus and he did many miracles?

ie when Josephus asked people about Jesus, were they telling him about a person that did not exist or did not do miracles, was not brought to trial before Pilate Pontius, and was not crucified ?
I suppose it is theoretically possible that they were lying in concert, but it seems more likely to me that were telling him something that they (rightly or wrongly) believed. to be true. I'm not sure where you are going with this. If you accept even the partial authenticity of the Testimonium it supports the proposition that the person Jesus existed and had many followers. Why is that an issue for you, that you might think that Josephus' informants were all concerned in a lie?
 
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roman2819

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I suppose it is theoretically possible that they were lying in concert, but it seems more likely to me that were telling him something that they (rightly or wrongly) believed. to be true. I'm not sure where you are going with this. If you accept even the partial authenticity of the Testimonium it supports the proposition that the person Jesus existed and had many followers. Why is that an issue for you, that you might think that Josephus' informants were all concerned in a lie?

Did I say Josephus infomants were a lie? I think you got it backwards. To refresh memory (it has been almost a month since I wrote anything) @Kylie was saying that Josephus claims about existence of Jesus was not reliable because Jospehus was a toddler, he was not a diretc witness of Jesus's existence and deeds. So I challenged her by asking in post #1813. Instead of repeating the entire post, I will just insert one paragraph:

The Scriptures claimed that about 120 other disciples saw Jesus after he was resurrected. The rest of the Jews who believed after Pentecost later didn’t see Him . So what caused them to believe and die for their faith? They believed because they saw Jesus cured the sick, expelled demons and did miracles , as Josephus recorded that many followed Jesus because He did many miracles. And again I ask: Did the mass told Josephus one big lie about an imaginary magician Jesus? Was everyone in the town and region lying to him? Is that possible? When the apostles proclaimed gospel and set up communities which later became churches, they did many miracles too and spoke in different languages to tell them about salvation, which caused people to believe. Or you going to claim without reason that these people just wanted to believe in an imaginary Jesus desperately – and get beaten or killed doing so? For their belief, they were thrown to lions, burnt by fire, drowned in water, crushed by wooden logs while tied to trees etc. Why would they want to live or die through this if they did not have bullet-proof convictions about the Jesus and the disciples?

She hasn't reply, so I guess she realized that logic need to be backed up by realistic considerations, not just saying whatever you like to say -- which would be illogicai, to say the least.
 
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roman2819

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And once again you use an equivocation fallacy. In context he was correct. He was talking about evidence regarding evolution. I suppose you could claim to have evidence even if you did not have scientific evidence, the problem is that that evidence is not reliable evidence.

Some people here are constantly talking about forms of arguements. way of reasoning or even the power of reasoning, I suppose this is to deflect from the real issue, which is: There is no reliable evidence for how life could have come about without God. So, unable to produce relaible evidence to prove your believe, you resort to methods of reasoning. Relying on forms , but no substance.

I have asked a few times where are the proof and evidence? I am still waiting to see credible explanations. Instead, I mostly see filmsy theories.
 
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pitabread

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There is no reliable evidence for how life could have come about without God.

Sure there is. There is ample research into abiogenesis and how life could form via biochemistry.

Conversely, there is absolutely no explanation as to how life could have come about with God. If you want to argue that God made directly made living organisms, you need to start explaining how that could have occurred.
 
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roman2819

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And I see no significant difference between how Christians describe their connection to and experience of God wiith those reported by believers in other religions. If one religion was actually true, and therefore other religions false, I'd expect to see a signifiicant qualitative difference. But, I don't.

How much do you understand other religions? Do you have opportunities to mix with them for many years. Here in Singapore. I practically know hindus, Muslims, Taoists , buddhlist, sikhs for years. I can say there is plenty of difference between Chrsitianity and their beliefs, and there is much difference between a buddhist and muslim.
 
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roman2819

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Sure there is. There is ample research into abiogenesis and how life could form via biochemistry.

Conversely, there is absolutely no explanation as to how life could have come about with God. If you want to argue that God made directly made living organisms, you need to start explaining how that could have occurred.

I have stated the evidences many times.

Lets hear your evidence.
 
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Ophiolite

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How much do you understand other religions? Do you have opportunities to mix with them for many years. Here in Singapore. I practically know hindus, Muslims, Taoists , buddhlist, sikhs for years. I can say there is plenty of difference between Chrsitianity and their beliefs, and there is much difference between a buddhist and muslim.
Do you feel that a believers "connection to and experience of God" is the equivalent of "their beliefs"? They seem to me quite different. The former deals with spiritual experience and overarching perceptions, the latter with specific of laws, history, prophecies, personalities, miracles, etc.
 
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Speedwell

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And again I ask: Did the mass told Josephus one big lie about an imaginary magician Jesus? Was everyone in the town and region lying to him? Is that possible?
Why would they lie? That doesn't even make sense. Undoubtedly the people who Josephus talked to told him what they believed. A concerted fable about an imaginary character they made up is not a realistic possibility. But the reliability question rests on who told Josephus and where and how they came to believe it themselves. We don't really know any of that which, from a historian's standpoint, impinges on the conclusions arrived at about the reliability of the account. Just because it cannot be considered technically to be 100% reliable doesn't mean it must be a lie. What Josephus boils down to is "Some people whom I deemed to be credible told me this story." Sometimes that's as good as it gets in ancient history. Why is that a problem for you? Why do you think it has to mean "This story must be a lie?"
 
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