Can a Christian have a premature death is he keeps living in lawlessness

Oldmantook said:

I agree. There are two resurrections; thus two judgments. The first occurs at Jesus' 2nd coming. The second occurs after the millennial age. However none of these judgments refer to "rewards."
The "bema seat" judgment you refer to occurs at Jesus' return and is described at John 5:28-29 & Acts 24:15. The bema judgment belief asserts that this particular judgment is for believers only however this is plainly contradicted by these texts which describe a resurrection and judgment of BOTH the righteous believers and unrighteous unbelievers at the same time. Furthermore the Johanine passage describes the "reward" as either a "resurrection of life" or a "resurrection of judgment." No mention whatsoever of any other rewards.

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Depends on how you view the millennium.
If you have a post tribulational/pre wrath rapture, IE what happens after the 6th seal in Revelation 6, that is also described in 1 Thessalonians 4 and Matthew 24, then what you have is a bunch of redeemed people suddenly in heaven. They get rewarded at the bema seat. But another 3+ years of God's wrath being poured out on the earth is taking place people who weren't saved at the second coming can still be saved after (the work of the 2 witnesses and the 144,000, saving as many as they can) When they die they aren't being resurrected yet, same thing with those who are born after the rapture, and those that are born and live during the Millennial Kingdom. They can be saved, but they will have to wait for the second resurrection at the end of the Millennium.
So the end of the Millennium comes, and then everyone is resurrected. Some will be saved, some will not. There's your righteous and unrighteous resurrection and judgement at the second time, the second resurrection before the Great White Throne of Judgement.
Paul talks about rewards specifically different crowns, and in Isaiah there's the promise to faithful eunuchs that they'll have a monument and a name better than sons and daughters.

Jamdoc said:

Depends on how you view the millennium.
If you have a post tribulational/pre wrath rapture, IE what happens after the 6th seal in Revelation 6, that is also described in 1 Thessalonians 4 and Matthew 24, then what you have is a bunch of redeemed people suddenly in heaven. They get rewarded at the bema seat. But another 3+ years of God's wrath being poured out on the earth is taking place people who weren't saved at the second coming can still be saved after (the work of the 2 witnesses and the 144,000, saving as many as they can) When they die they aren't being resurrected yet, same thing with those who are born after the rapture, and those that are born and live during the Millennial Kingdom. They can be saved, but they will have to wait for the second resurrection at the end of the Millennium.
So the end of the Millennium comes, and then everyone is resurrected. Some will be saved, some will not. There's your righteous and unrighteous resurrection and judgement at the second time, the second resurrection before the Great White Throne of Judgement.
Paul talks about rewards specifically different crowns, and in Isaiah there's the promise to faithful eunuchs that they'll have a monument and a name better than sons and daughters.

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There is a problem with your argument. In Acts 24:15-16 Paul wrote that he had hope of the resurrection of the just/unjust (v.15) which he hoped to attain and strived for (v.16). Paul certainly wasn't striving to be included in the second resurrection. He hoped to be resurrected in the first resurrection which he stated contains both the just and unjust. The bema seat judgment which is said to refer to only saved believers is thus false.

Oldmantook said:

There is a problem with your argument. In Acts 24:15-16 Paul wrote that he had hope of the resurrection of the just/unjust (v.15) which he hoped to attain and strived for (v.16). Paul certainly wasn't striving to be included in the second resurrection. He hoped to be resurrected in the first resurrection which he stated contains both the just and unjust. The bema seat judgment which is said to refer to only saved believers is thus false.

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There's no way to have resurrection of just and unjust at the same time and still have 2 separate resurrections. How do you figure the first resurrection contains both saved and unsaved?

Jamdoc said:

There's no way to have resurrection of just and unjust at the same time and still have 2 separate resurrections. How do you figure the first resurrection contains both saved and unsaved?

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Yes way. Did you not read the passages I cited? The first resurrection which Paul looked forward and strove to attain consists of BOTH the righteous and the wicked: "and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. So I strive always to keep my conscience clear before God and man.
(Acts 24:15-16).
Jesus taught the same thing in Jn 5:28-29: 28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming in which all those in the tombs will hear His voice, 29and will come forth—those having done good to the resurrection of life, and those having done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

Jesus cited a specific hour (singular) in which ALL those in the tombs will be resurrected - both the "good" AND the "evil." This is the first resurrection that Paul looked forward to. Paul certainly was not waiting around for the second resurrection was he? FYI the second resurrection consists of those who died during the millennium whereas those who died before millennium are raised in the first resurrection. I prefer to believe Paul and Jesus.

Oldmantook said:

Yes way. Did you not read the passages I cited? The first resurrection which Paul looked forward and strove to attain consists of BOTH the righteous and the wicked: "and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. So I strive always to keep my conscience clear before God and man.
(Acts 24:15-16).
Jesus taught the same thing in Jn 5:28-29: 28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming in which all those in the tombs will hear His voice, 29and will come forth—those having done good to the resurrection of life, and those having done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

Jesus cited a specific hour (singular) in which ALL those in the tombs will be resurrected - both the "good" AND the "evil." This is the first resurrection that Paul looked forward to. Paul certainly was not waiting around for the second resurrection was he? FYI the second resurrection consists of those who died during the millennium whereas those who died before millennium are raised in the first resurrection. I prefer to believe Paul and Jesus.

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Revelation 20:4-6 refers to the first resurrection and are you saying that everyone, even the unsaved are blessed and take part in it?

Which translation of the bible are you reading

cause the KJV has Acts 24:15-16 as

15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

16 And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void to offence toward God, and toward men.

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Nothing about striving for a particular order of resurrection, just striving for having a clean conscience before the Lord and before men. ESV even has the same gist. NIV same thing. Nothing about striving for a particular resurrection in any order. Paul just talks about a resurrection, period, and other places in the bible such as Revelation 20 detail 2 resurrections. 1 before the Millennium, and 1 after. The one before the Millennium is obviously a resurrection of life, while the second is a resurrection of Judgement.

Jamdoc said:

Revelation 20:4-6 refers to the first resurrection and are you saying that everyone, even the unsaved are blessed and take part in it?

Which translation of the bible are you reading

cause the KJV has Acts 24:15-16 as


Nothing about striving for a particular order of resurrection, just striving for having a clean conscience before the Lord and before men. ESV even has the same gist. NIV same thing. Nothing about striving for a particular resurrection in any order. Paul just talks about a resurrection, period, and other places in the bible such as Revelation 20 detail 2 resurrections. 1 before the Millennium, and 1 after. The one before the Millennium is obviously a resurrection of life, while the second is a resurrection of Judgement.

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Even the the KJV states A resurrection of the dead, BOTH of the just and unjust. No difference between the other versions. Paul could not have been hoping to be resurrected during the 2nd resurrection because that resurrection takes place after the millennium. When Jesus returns to earth at the 1st resurrection we know he will gather the saints both the living and the dead ones, so we automatically know Paul hoped to be included in that group - IN THE FIRST RESURRECTION - which contains both the just and unjust. In that first resurrection, all the just persons including Paul are judged to a resurrection of life while the unsaved/unjust are raised to a resurrection of judgment.

After the 1,000 years are completed there is another judgment at the GWT when those who lived and died during the millennium are judged.

Oldmantook said:

Even the the KJV states A resurrection of the dead, BOTH of the just and unjust. No difference between the other versions. Paul could not have been hoping to be resurrected during the 2nd resurrection because that resurrection takes place after the millennium. When Jesus returns to earth at the 1st resurrection we know he will gather the saints both the living and the dead ones, so we automatically know Paul hoped to be included in that group - IN THE FIRST RESURRECTION - which contains both the just and unjust. In that first resurrection, all the just persons including Paul are judged to a resurrection of life while the unsaved/unjust are raised to a resurrection of judgment.

After the 1,000 years are completed there is another judgment at the GWT when those who lived and died during the millennium are judged.

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You're getting something jumbled up. John 5 describes 2 resurrections, a resurrection of life and a resurrection of judgement. Revelation 20:4-6 describes the same, the blessed and holy first resurrection (of life), and after the 1000 years, a resurrection and the Great White Throne of Judgement (the resurrection of Judgement).
Is the first resurrection blessed and holy if the unsaved and wicked are also raised in it? The 2nd death has no power over those who take part in the first resurrection. That cannot include unsaved unjust people.

You brought up John 5 so I want to take a closer look at this. if nothing else, I thank you and thank God for the opportunity to look into this scripture because I hadn't recognized this before when reading it.
John 5:24-26

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

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This describes the resurrection of life, the first resurrection, for those that hear His words and believe on Him. Those are the dead that respond to the first resurrection, hearing the voice of Jesus. This is not everyone, this is the saved.

Now the second part,
John 5:27-29

27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

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Wow.. it wasn't Jesus simply restating what He'd said in the first part after all, but rather Jesus stating 2 separate events. A first resurrection of those who hear His words and believe on Him, and a second resurrection afterwards that includes everyone, some which are justified (who I take to be people who got saved after the rapture and during the millennium) who go to a resurrection of life, and the rest.. the resurrection of damnation. But the judgement comes with the second resurrection, rather than the first.
That is amazingly consistent with Revelation 20, is it not?

as for the words of Paul in Acts, he does say A resurrection but not that there's only 1 resurrection. Not when comparing scripture with scripture you can see 2 resurrections.
Now Hebrews 9:27 says that we're appointed to die just once, and after that is judgement, eternal life, or second death. So by "a resurrection of the dead", could just mean that we will only be resurrected just once, not resurrected to die, then be resurrected again to die, and then be resurrected to die again etc.
This is another interesting theological idea, what about people like Lazarus, that were resurrected by Jesus already? I think maybe He was taken bodily into heaven after being resurrected by Jesus, because the bible never details on whether he died a second time. This would make it consistent with Hebrews 9:27, which is also part of why I think the 2 witnesses will be Enoch and Elijah, because they went bodily into heaven, and have not died their appointed time. The 2 witnesses will be killed, so unless God is allowing for someone to die multiple times, I believe the plan was for Elijah and Enoch to die their one appointed time in Jerusalem in the last days. Wouldn't that be something? What a long sighted plan, to take Enoch up specifically for this purpose in the future thousands of years later?

Jamdoc said:

This describes the resurrection of life, the first resurrection, for those that hear His words and believe on Him. Those are the dead that respond to the first resurrection, hearing the voice of Jesus. This is not everyone, this is the saved.

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No, read it again - carefully. Rev 20:4 refers to those beheaded church saints who are beheaded for refusing to take the mark. It states that as a result of their faithfulness they (the beheaded church saints) shall live and reign with Christ for 1,000 years.
V.5 states THE REST OF THE DEAD (which cannot refer to the beheaded saints) did not live again until the 1,000 years were finished. It further states "This is the first resurrection." You know that there are no verse numbers in the original text. Thus v.5 refers back to verse 4 as one continuous reading. The "first resurrection" in v.5 can only refer to the saints who were beheaded in verse 4. By the way, I presume you know that Paul was likely beheaded. Paul wrote that he looked forward to A [single] resurrection of BOTH the RIGHTEOUS AND the WICKED. Paul did not write that there is one resurrection for the righteous and another separate resurrection for the wicked. You have eisegeted the text.

Jamdoc said:

Wow.. it wasn't Jesus simply restating what He'd said in the first part after all, but rather Jesus stating 2 separate events. A first resurrection of those who hear His words and believe on Him, and a second resurrection afterwards that includes everyone, some which are justified (who I take to be people who got saved after the rapture and during the millennium) who go to a resurrection of life, and the rest.. the resurrection of damnation. But the judgement comes with the second resurrection, rather than the first.
That is amazingly consistent with Revelation 20, is it not?

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No; where does Jesus reference two separate resurrections? Did you not read the verses in John 5?
28Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
"The hour" refers to a single hour; not multiple hours. "All in the graves" include every single dead person including those who have done good or evil. Again, you have eisegeted the verses. These verses plainly describe a single resurrection in which both the righteous and unrighteous dead are resurrected.

Jamdoc said:

Now Hebrews 9:27 says that we're appointed to die just once, and after that is judgement, eternal life, or second death. So by "a resurrection of the dead", could just mean that we will only be resurrected just once, not resurrected to die, then be resurrected again to die, and then be resurrected to die again etc.

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What are you referring to?? I never wrote that people are resurrected more than once. In fact I wrote that all the dead - both the just and unjust - are resurrected at Jesus' 2nd coming. The rest of the dead - those who lived/died during the 1,000 years are resurrected and judged at the great white throne. These are two separate groups of people who live during different ages of time thus the need for two different resurrections and resulting judgments.

Danigt22 said:

Listen to Guojing, he seems better explaining it than me. And get save for once.

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Usually, we interpret scripture from our pre-existing doctrine.

For him, he believes salvation is by faith and works for all times, so he will naturally interpret what he reads from this perspective.

Oldmantook said:

No, read it again - carefully. Rev 20:4 refers to those beheaded church saints who are beheaded for refusing to take the mark. It states that as a result of their faithfulness they (the beheaded church saints) shall live and reign with Christ for 1,000 years.
V.5 states THE REST OF THE DEAD (which cannot refer to the beheaded saints) did not live again until the 1,000 years were finished. It further states "This is the first resurrection." You know that there are no verse numbers in the original text. Thus v.5 refers back to verse 4 as one continuous reading. The "first resurrection" in v.5 can only refer to the saints who were beheaded in verse 4. By the way, I presume you know that Paul was likely beheaded. Paul wrote that he looked forward to A [single] resurrection of BOTH the RIGHTEOUS AND the WICKED. Paul did not write that there is one resurrection for the righteous and another separate resurrection for the wicked. You have eisegeted the text.


No; where does Jesus reference two separate resurrections? Did you not read the verses in John 5?
28Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
"The hour" refers to a single hour; not multiple hours. "All in the graves" include every single dead person including those who have done good or evil. Again, you have eisegeted the verses. These verses plainly describe a single resurrection in which both the righteous and unrighteous dead are resurrected.


What are you referring to?? I never wrote that people are resurrected more than once. In fact I wrote that all the dead - both the just and unjust - are resurrected at Jesus' 2nd coming. The rest of the dead - those who lived/died during the 1,000 years are resurrected and judged at the great white throne. These are two separate groups of people who live during different ages of time thus the need for two different resurrections and resulting judgments.

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You seem to have glossed over John 5:24-26.
He talks about a resurrection, then He is either reiterating that same resurrection, or talking about a second resurrection.
Revelation 20 shows that to be 2 resurrections.
You cannot have the wicked resurrected in the first resurrection, because the second death has no power over those who take part in the first resurrection.
That alone right there should shoot down any notion that there is just a single resurrection for everyone, but rather that there are 2 separate events. A first resurrection, and then a resurrection for everyone, and that the wicked are not part of the first resurrection.

and I was referring to your holding to Acts 24:15 as evidence that there is just a single resurrection, and that everyone is resurrected in it not just the Justified.
Paul isn't referring to Jesus only resurrecting people one time but rather that each person resurrected by Jesus gets resurrected one time.

Jamdoc said:

You seem to have glossed over John 5:24-26.
He talks about a resurrection, then He is either reiterating that same resurrection, or talking about a second resurrection.
Revelation 20 shows that to be 2 resurrections.
You cannot have the wicked resurrected in the first resurrection, because the second death has no power over those who take part in the first resurrection.
That alone right there should shoot down any notion that there is just a single resurrection for everyone, but rather that there are 2 separate events. A first resurrection, and then a resurrection for everyone, and that the wicked are not part of the first resurrection.

and I was referring to your holding to Acts 24:15 as evidence that there is just a single resurrection, and that everyone is resurrected in it not just the Justified.
Paul isn't referring to Jesus only resurrecting people one time but rather that each person resurrected by Jesus gets resurrected one time.

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Do me favor. I quoted the verse and cited why I believe what it says. I suggest you quote the verse also and point out in the verse where it says what you think it says.

Moreover, apparently you still don't get what I wrote. For clarity, I wrote there are two resurrections of the dead. The first occurs at Jesus' second coming where AN HOUR is coming where ALL WHO ARE IN THE GRAVES shall hear his voice per Jn 5:28. ALL in the graves means the totality of dead humanity - saved and unsaved. That is indisputable. The resurrected righteous dead are judged to the resurrection of life while the resurrected unrighteous dead are judged to the resurrection of condemnation. Which is exactly why the resurrected righteous dead are not subject to the second death and it has no power over them - because they are part of the first resurrection. Thus those who have lived and die before Jesus' second coming are resurrected only ONE TIME. Those who have done good will be resurrected to life in their immortal bodies and their reward is to rule/reign with Jesus during the Millennium. On the other hand, those who have done evil will be condemned (to the lake of fire).

After the Millennium, those mortals who lived and died during the 1,000 years will be resurrected once also but this time to face the God's judgment at the great white throne.
I believe these details answer all of your objections.

Oldmantook said:

Do me favor. I quoted the verse and cited why I believe what it says. I suggest you quote the verse also and point out in the verse where it says what you think it says.

Moreover, apparently you still don't get what I wrote. For clarity, I wrote there are two resurrections of the dead. The first occurs at Jesus' second coming where AN HOUR is coming where ALL WHO ARE IN THE GRAVES shall hear his voice per Jn 5:28. ALL in the graves means the totality of dead humanity - saved and unsaved. That is indisputable. The resurrected righteous dead are judged to the resurrection of life while the resurrected unrighteous dead are judged to the resurrection of condemnation. Which is exactly why the resurrected righteous dead are not subject to the second death and it has no power over them - because they are part of the first resurrection. Thus those who have lived and die before Jesus' second coming are resurrected only ONE TIME. Those who have done good will be resurrected to life in their immortal bodies and their reward is to rule/reign with Jesus during the Millennium. On the other hand, those who have done evil will be condemned (to the lake of fire).

After the Millennium, those mortals who lived and died during the 1,000 years will be resurrected once also but this time to face the God's judgment at the great white throne.
I believe these details answer all of your objections.

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No, not at all, it doesn't at all.
Acts 24:15 does not state there will only be one, just that everyone will be resurrected. There is no limitation on it that I can see.

John 5:25 and John 5:28 are separate events, otherwise Jesus is repeating Himself unnecessarily. There's an hour where "they that hear shall live". Context being that those who hear His words, and believe on Him that sent Jesus, will have eternal life as stated in John 5:24. Context is important. John 5:25 is referring to the first resurrection which is also in Revelation 20:6. Then there is an hour (after the 1000 years) when all the dead will be resurrected and be judged. Only the saved take part in the first resurrection, the "rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished."
The first resurrection cannot be all inclusive because #1. those who partake in it are blessed and holy, that's not everyone, and #2. There can't be a "rest of the dead" if everyone is resurrected at that time.
Revelation 20:6

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

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The wicked are not blessed and holy, they will not take part in the first resurrection. The second death WILL have power over them, because they are only in the second resurrection.
I get the feeling that you believe in a post tribulational, post wrath of God rapture only, or don't believe in the rapture at all.
1 Thessalonians 4, Matthew 24, and Revelation 6 all refer to the same event, where the sun and moon are darkened and Jesus comes in the clouds with power and great glory, and the dead in Christ will rise first and we that still live will be caught up (hence the term rapture) in the clouds to be with Him also.
Note that this happens BEFORE the 7 trumpets and 7 vials of God pouring His wrath on the earth because 1 Thessalonians 5:9. God has not promised to not have us suffer from tribulations caused by other men and the antichrist but He HAS promised to spare us from HIS wrath.
There is more than 1 future coming of Jesus Christ, the second coming is the rapture that proceeds the wrath of God, then there is a third, Revelation 19 Jesus coming to earth on a white horse with His saints to win the battle of Armageddon. Then the Millennial Kingdom is established.

Do you see Revelation 6 and Revelation 19 to be the same event?

Jamdoc said:

No, not at all, it doesn't at all.
Acts 24:15 does not state there will only be one, just that everyone will be resurrected. There is no limitation on it that I can see.

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Since you didn't bother to quote it as I asked you to, I'll do it myself.
I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust. Acts 24:15
This particular resurrection at Jesus' coming contains the resurrection of BOTH the just and unjust. It does not say that only the just are resurrected now and the unjust are resurrected later as you claim. Where does it say that in this verse?

Jamdoc said:

John 5:25 and John 5:28 are separate events, otherwise Jesus is repeating Himself unnecessarily. There's an hour where "they that hear shall live".

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Incorrect as they are the same event. These two verses refer to the same event - the SAME HOUR -where the dead shall hear His voice, which occurs at the first resurrection.

Jamdoc said:

Then there is an hour (after the 1000 years) when all the dead will be resurrected and be judged.

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Where in the Bible does "an hour" refer to after the 1,000 years? You are inserting your unwarranted opinion unless you provide specific scripture which backs your claim.

Jamdoc said:

The first resurrection cannot be all inclusive because #1. those who partake in it are blessed and holy, that's not everyone, and #2. There can't be a "rest of the dead" if everyone is resurrected at that time.
Revelation 20:6

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What?? The first resurrection is indeed all inclusive because we just went over the fact that Acts 24:15 states there A resurrection of BOTH the just and unjust. The saints are raised to a judgment of life and are therefore "blessed and holy" which of course only applies to them as the unjust are judged as condemned. The "rest of the dead" is referenced in Revelation not in Acts 24 nor in John 5 so you taken both of those passages out of context. The rest of the dead refers to the rest of the dead who died during the Millennial Age - NOT the Church Age.

Jamdoc said:

The wicked are not blessed and holy, they will not take part in the first resurrection. The second death WILL have power over them, because they are only in the second resurrection.

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Incorrect. The wicked are not blessed and holy because they are the unjust ones resurrected in the first resurrection and are judged to a resurrection of condemnation. The second death has no power over the just ones because they are resurrected to life.

Jamdoc said:

I get the feeling that you believe in a post tribulational, post wrath of God rapture only, or don't believe in the rapture at all.

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You got that one right. Jesus taught that he returns as a thief (rapture) right before the battle of of Armageddon as he stated in Rev 16:15-16. I prefer to believe Jesus' own words instead of the pre-trib rapture teachers.

Jamdoc said:

Do you see Revelation 6 and Revelation 19 to be the same event?

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Rev 19 occurs at the end of the tribulation when Jesus returns to vanquish his enemies at Armageddon. Just before that battle, the saints are raptured/taken up.
Rev 6:17 refers to the day of wrath which is the same day that Jesus returns to subdue his enemies at Armageddon.

Jamdoc said:

There is more than 1 future coming of Jesus Christ, the second coming is the rapture that proceeds the wrath of God, then there is a third, Revelation 19 Jesus coming to earth on a white horse with His saints to win the battle of Armageddon. Then the Millennial Kingdom is established.

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Jesus never references His coming back as occurring more than once. He comes back once, right before the battle of Armageddon which is His wrath; he "raptures" the saints before this battle as the saints are not the objects of His wrath. Thus they are spared from the hour of testing that is to come upon the whole earth (Rev 3:10). The is the SAME HOUR referenced in Jn 5:25 & 28.

All one needs to go to heaven is belief that Jesus is their Savior.

Oldmantook said:

Since you didn't bother to quote it as I asked you to, I'll do it myself.
I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust. Acts 24:15
This particular resurrection at Jesus' coming contains the resurrection of BOTH the just and unjust. It does not say that only the just are resurrected now and the unjust are resurrected later as you claim. Where does it say that in this verse?


Incorrect as they are the same event. These two verses refer to the same event - the SAME HOUR -where the dead shall hear His voice, which occurs at the first resurrection.


Where in the Bible does "an hour" refer to after the 1,000 years? You are inserting your unwarranted opinion unless you provide specific scripture which backs your claim.


What?? The first resurrection is indeed all inclusive because we just went over the fact that Acts 24:15 states there A resurrection of BOTH the just and unjust. The saints are raised to a judgment of life and are therefore "blessed and holy" which of course only applies to them as the unjust are judged as condemned. The "rest of the dead" is referenced in Revelation not in Acts 24 nor in John 5 so you taken both of those passages out of context. The rest of the dead refers to the rest of the dead who died during the Millennial Age - NOT the Church Age.



Incorrect. The wicked are not blessed and holy because they are the unjust ones resurrected in the first resurrection and are judged to a resurrection of condemnation. The second death has no power over the just ones because they are resurrected to life.


You got that one right. Jesus taught that he returns as a thief (rapture) right before the battle of of Armageddon as he stated in Rev 16:15-16. I prefer to believe Jesus' own words instead of the pre-trib rapture teachers.


Rev 19 occurs at the end of the tribulation when Jesus returns to vanquish his enemies at Armageddon. Just before that battle, the saints are raptured/taken up.
Rev 6:17 refers to the day of wrath which is the same day that Jesus returns to subdue his enemies at Armageddon.


Jesus never references His coming back as occurring more than once. He comes back once, right before the battle of Armageddon which is His wrath; he "raptures" the saints before this battle as the saints are not the objects of His wrath. Thus they are spared from the hour of testing that is to come upon the whole earth (Rev 3:10). The is the SAME HOUR referenced in Jn 5:25 & 28.

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Okay, you are UTTERLY confused. Revelation 6 is at the start of the wrath of God, Revelation 19 is at the end of the wrath of God. Revelation 9:5 has men being tormented by the locusts from hell for five months. The wrath of God takes longer than 1 hour. We're probably talking years. Time, times, and half a time that is referred to in Daniel 7:25 is 3.5 years that the Antichrist has control of the world, the first half of Daniel's 70th week that people refer to incorrectly as a 7 year tribulation. In Daniel, you see 3.5 years of Tribulation, logically followed by 3.5 years of God's wrath on the earth.

and again I restate. The wicked CANNOT take part in the first resurrection. The wicked are "the rest of the dead" referred to in Revelation 20:5. You cannot have a "rest of the dead" if everyone who is dead is resurrected in the first resurrection. There IS no "rest of the dead" if nobody is dead?
You're compressing multiple events into 1 singular event.
Jesus returns more than once, once it's described as the sun and moon darkening, with Jesus coming in the clouds, while Revelation 6 doesn't cover it, 1 Thessalonians 4 and Matthew 24 describe it as coming with a shout/trump of God (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 6:12), there He comes FOR His saints. The other described in Revelation 19, was coming on a white horse, coming WITH His saints.
You have to understand these are separate events. You'd have Jesus coming down from heaven on a white horse in the clouds with the dead in Christ rising but instead of going to Heaven they go straight to Armageddon.

Jamdoc said:

Okay, you are UTTERLY confused. Revelation 6 is at the start of the wrath of God, Revelation 19 is at the end of the wrath of God. Revelation 9:5 has men being tormented by the locusts from hell for five months. The wrath of God takes longer than 1 hour. We're probably talking years. Time, times, and half a time that is referred to in Daniel 7:25 is 3.5 years that the Antichrist has control of the world, the first half of Daniel's 70th week that people refer to incorrectly as a 7 year tribulation. In Daniel, you see 3.5 years of Tribulation, logically followed by 3.5 years of God's wrath on the earth.

and again I restate. The wicked CANNOT take part in the first resurrection. The wicked are "the rest of the dead" referred to in Revelation 20:5. You cannot have a "rest of the dead" if everyone who is dead is resurrected in the first resurrection. There IS no "rest of the dead" if nobody is dead?
You're compressing multiple events into 1 singular event.
Jesus returns more than once, once it's described as the sun and moon darkening, with Jesus coming in the clouds, while Revelation 6 doesn't cover it, 1 Thessalonians 4 and Matthew 24 describe it as coming with a shout/trump of God (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 6:12), there He comes FOR His saints. The other described in Revelation 19, was coming on a white horse, coming WITH His saints.
You have to understand these are separate events. You'd have Jesus coming down from heaven on a white horse in the clouds with the dead in Christ rising but instead of going to Heaven they go straight to Armageddon.

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Nope, you are utterly confused not to mention nonsensical. You make the mistake of presuming the book of Revelation is sequential in order. Why do you assume that? A simple glance of Rev 6 & 7 demonstrates that it cannot be the case. Chapters 6 & 7 deal with the 7 Seals of Judgment (and also 8:1) God’s wrath against on the earth. However within these two chapters we have a parenthesis of events in heaven. In chapter 7 verses 1 through 17, we find the sealing of 144,000 witnesses, plus worship of God by innumerable converts, including Tribulation martyrs. Rev 6:17 references the great day of his wrath has come. How can that be as we are only in between the seals and the trumpets? Moreover, the wrath of God is one hour; not 3.5 years as you claim and it comes at the end of the tribulation. Why do you pervert what Scripture plainly states?
Mt 24:42-43 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into.
Lk 12:40 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

Jn 5:25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.

Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.

From the above we know that Jesus comes as a thief (rapture) at a specific hour. When that particular hour is, no one knows but Jesus did specify a particular time frame:

Rev 18:10 standing at a distance for fear of her torment, saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! For in one hour your judgment has come.’

Rev 18:17 For in one hour such great riches came to nothing.’ Every shipmaster, all who travel by ship, sailors, and as many as trade on the sea, stood at a distance
Rev 18:18 “They threw dust on their heads and cried out, weeping and wailing, and saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great city, in which all who had ships on the sea became rich by her wealth! For in one hour she is made desolate.’

Based on the above, the rapture where Jesus comes as a thief at a certain hour is the same hour where God judges the Babylon world system. Jesus promised the Philadelphians that he would keep them from that hour of wrath. This perfectly fits with Rev 16:15-16:
Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.” And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.
Therefore Jesus comes as a thief (rapture), right before the battle of Armageddon - which is also the hour in which Babylon falls - which is the hour that he promised the Philadelphian church as well as all the faithful saints that He would keep them from. If anyone is faithful, it is the Philadelphian Church, yet they have to persevere through the entire tribulation period in order to be rescued just before Armageddon.

You believe too much in the false rapture doctrine. What do you do when a guest arrives at your place of abode? Typically, you go outside to meet and welcome the guest and then you both proceed to return to your home. Same thing with the "rapture." Jesus comes back to earth. The saints rise to meet Jesus in the air. Then Jesus along with the saints return the earth where Jesus avenges his wrath upon his enemies. The saints do not go to heaven as the rapture teachers claim.

Lastly your wrote:
The wicked CANNOT take part in the first resurrection. The wicked are "the rest of the dead" referred to in Revelation 20:5. You cannot have a "rest of the dead" if everyone who is dead is resurrected in the first resurrection. There IS no "rest of the dead" if nobody is dead?
You're compressing multiple events into 1 singular event.
Totally incorrect. The "rest of the dead" are those who lived and DIED during the Millennium. You neglected to account for that didn't you?

Simple, because "the day" or "the hour" is an expression, not necessarily an exact time measurement given.
We're given time, times, and half a time (3.5 years), and the torment of the locusts from hell is 5 months, and that is just 1 part of the wrath of God.

Let's illustrate with some scripture, you've already supplied "the hour" scripture but let's look at how those same kinds of events are also expressed elsewhere.

2 Peter 3:10-12 "the day"
Zephaniah 1, it's referred to as "the day"
Isaiah 13, referred to as "the day"
Joel 1:15
Revelation 6:17

We can't really mince expressions of time coming from God, who is timeless, to mean exact times from our experience of time, unless they give specifics like as in Babylon being destroyed in literally one hour. The reason why that is different is because ONE hour is specified. That's a specific time, "the hour" is an expression that something is happening at that time, not that it's duration is 60 minutes. This isn't Genesis 1 where morning and evening passed to clarify that it was 1 24 hour day.
as I stated, we're given specific time, times, and half a time which is 3.5 years, and the locust stings cause 5 months of pain. You don't have five months of pain if the entire event lasts 1 hour.

Jamdoc said:

Simple, because "the day" or "the hour" is an expression, not necessarily an exact time measurement given.
We're given time, times, and half a time (3.5 years), and the torment of the locusts from hell is 5 months, and that is just 1 part of the wrath of God.

Let's illustrate with some scripture, you've already supplied "the hour" scripture but let's look at how those same kinds of events are also expressed elsewhere.

2 Peter 3:10-12 "the day"
Zephaniah 1, it's referred to as "the day"
Isaiah 13, referred to as "the day"
Joel 1:15
Revelation 6:17

We can't really mince expressions of time coming from God, who is timeless, to mean exact times from our experience of time, unless they give specifics like as in Babylon being destroyed in literally one hour. The reason why that is different is because ONE hour is specified. That's a specific time, "the hour" is an expression that something is happening at that time, not that it's duration is 60 minutes. This isn't Genesis 1 where morning and evening passed to clarify that it was 1 24 hour day.
as I stated, we're given specific time, times, and half a time which is 3.5 years, and the locust stings cause 5 months of pain. You don't have five months of pain if the entire event lasts 1 hour.

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God is timeless but it does not negate the fact that God cannot use finite units of time to describe when or how long events will happen. One hour means one hour. The "day" refers to the day Jesus returns when he executes his wrath upon mystery Babylon in the span of an "hour." God's wrath spans the seals, trumpets and bowls but it ultimately leads up to the destruction of Babylon - which is the ultimate and final expression of His wrath - which lasts for an hour. There is no contradiction.

Oldmantook said:

God is timeless but it does not negate the fact that God cannot use finite units of time to describe when or how long events will happen. One hour means one hour. The "day" refers to the day Jesus returns when he executes his wrath upon mystery Babylon in the span of an "hour." God's wrath spans the seals, trumpets and bowls but it ultimately leads up to the destruction of Babylon - which is the ultimate and final expression of His wrath - which lasts for an hour. There is no contradiction.

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There is.
God has the angels releasing the wrath of God and there are locusts that cause stings that fester for five months.
That's longer than an hour.

Jamdoc said:

There is.
God has the angels releasing the wrath of God and there are locusts that cause stings that fester for five months.
That's longer than an hour.

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Did you not read what I wrote??
The wrath of God spans the seals, trumpets, bowls (which is obviously longer than an hour). HOWEVER the HOUR of his wrath only has to do specifically with the destruction Mystery Babylon.