Can a Christian have a premature death is he keeps living in lawlessness

[Jamdoc]

Did you not read what I wrote??
The wrath of God spans the seals, trumpets, bowls (which is obviously longer than an hour). HOWEVER the HOUR of his wrath only has to do specifically with the destruction Mystery Babylon.

Okay so you're willing to accept that more than 1 hour passes between the 6th seal and the destruction of Babylon, great. We have a starting point.
the 6th seal contains the events described in Matthew 24 and 1 Thessalonians 4. That's the coming of the Lord in the clouds.
More than 1 hour passes between that and the destruction of Babylon (which I agree, IS in one hour because that "one hour" is specified, it's not a figure of speech, but an actual specified time), and the battle of Armageddon. The 6th vial is to dry up the river Euphrates so a 200 million man army can come from the east, those are men, they'll take time to cover that ground.
So unless you have some weird time paradox stuff going on, you have 6th seal, Jesus returns for His saints, 7th seal, wrath of God begins, wrath of God goes on for some time, months, years probably, then Babylon destroyed in an hour, then Jesus comes on a white horse WITH His saints, destroys the Antichrist.

 

[Johan_1988]

During the Tribulation, God will return to deal with Israel, so yes, everything in Hebrews to Revelations are directed TO the Jews.

Only for the Jews? That is insane. Look at some of the scriptures you will be ignoring:

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
1John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1John 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1John 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
1John 2:7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
1John 2:8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
1John 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
1John 2:10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
1John 2:11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.
1John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2John 1:4 I rejoiced greatly that I found of thy children walking in truth, as we have received a commandment from the Father.
2John 1:5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.
2John 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

All those scripture have to do with New testament doctrine and how is it invalid all of a sudden to gentile believers if it is addressed to Jews and even in Revelation it talks to the Seven churches which are in gentile cities. Did God save the Jews with a different kind of salvation no, because salvation is of the Jews:
John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
We all know certain scripture speak about the Jews ,but
we would not be able to interpret the prophecy of Revelation concerning the Tribulation and the Jews if God did not want us to. We are. So God wanted us to read and understand it.
Please ,listen to scripture ,not know it all theologians that keep coming up with the awful teachings that contradict scripture:
2Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

 

[Guojing]

Only for the Jews? That is insane. Look at some of the scriptures you will be ignoring:

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
1John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1John 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1John 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
1John 2:7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
1John 2:8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
1John 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
1John 2:10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
1John 2:11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.
1John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2John 1:4 I rejoiced greatly that I found of thy children walking in truth, as we have received a commandment from the Father.
2John 1:5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.
2John 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

All those scripture have to do with New testament doctrine and how is it invalid all of a sudden to gentile believers if it is addressed to Jews and even in Revelation it talks to the Seven churches which are in gentile cities. Did God save the Jews with a different kind of salvation no, because salvation is of the Jews:
John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
We all know certain scripture speak about the Jews ,but
we would not be able to interpret the prophecy of Revelation concerning the Tribulation and the Jews if God did not want us to. We are. So God wanted us to read and understand it.
Please ,listen to scripture ,not know it all theologians that keep coming up with the awful teachings that contradict scripture:
2Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

You don't build an ark even though God gave a commandment to Noah to build one because you rightly divide the word of truth correct?

You read Galatians 2:9?

And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

It is most interesting that the order of the letters written to the circumcised followed this exact order as it is placed in the Bible,

The book of James
The books of 1 and 2 Peter
finally, the books of 1-3 John.

Isn't that the divine order by the Holy Spirit?

 

[Oldmantook]

Okay so you're willing to accept that more than 1 hour passes between the 6th seal and the destruction of Babylon, great. We have a starting point.
the 6th seal contains the events described in Matthew 24 and 1 Thessalonians 4. That's the coming of the Lord in the clouds.
More than 1 hour passes between that and the destruction of Babylon (which I agree, IS in one hour because that "one hour" is specified, it's not a figure of speech, but an actual specified time), and the battle of Armageddon. The 6th vial is to dry up the river Euphrates so a 200 million man army can come from the east, those are men, they'll take time to cover that ground.
So unless you have some weird time paradox stuff going on, you have 6th seal, Jesus returns for His saints, 7th seal, wrath of God begins, wrath of God goes on for some time, months, years probably, then Babylon destroyed in an hour, then Jesus comes on a white horse WITH His saints, destroys the Antichrist.

As I wrote earlier, Revelation is not totally chronological/sequential. My point all along has been that the saints are taken up just prior to the time of trial/testing that is to come upon the whole world which Jesus promised to the Church of Philadelphia in Rev 3:10. "Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth."

Question: Which hour is Jesus referring to? Answer: the hour that he returns as a thief; i.e. rapture.

Mt 24:42-43 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into.
Lk 12:40 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
Jn 5:25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.

Thus Jesus stated that we won't know the specific hour of his return as a thief, but He does provide us with the general time frame in Rev 16:15-16.
“Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.” And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.

Jesus himself stated that He is coming as a thief just prior to Armageddon - which is the hour of the destruction of Babylon. This perfectly parallels these verses which confirm that the hour references Babylon's destruction:
Rev 18:10 standing at a distance for fear of her torment, saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! For in one hour your judgment has come.’
Rev 18:17 For in one hour such great riches came to nothing.’ Every shipmaster, all who travel by ship, sailors, and as many as trade on the sea, stood at a distance
Rev 18:18 “They threw dust on their heads and cried out, weeping and wailing, and saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great city, in which all who had ships on the sea became rich by her wealth! For in one hour she is made desolate.’

Thus we can conclude that the rapture where Jesus comes as a thief at a certain hour is the same hour where God judges the Babylon world system. The rapture occurs at the end of the tribulation - not before as Pre-tribbers believe. The rapture and 2nd Coming are one and same event - not two events.

With that established, you you asked how can this time frame be true when at the "6th seal, Jesus returns for His saints, 7th seal, wrath of God begins, wrath of God goes on for some time, months, years probably, then Babylon destroyed in an hour, then Jesus comes on a white horse WITH His saints, destroys the Antichrist."

My answer is that John's Revelation is sequential in terms of the seals, trumpets and bowls being in chronological order. The seals are followed by the trumpets which in turn are followed lastly by the bowl judgments. HOWEVER, the 6-7th seal, 7th trumpet and 7th bowl are the same event - which only occurs after the 6th bowl. The order looks like this:
SEALS #1 - 5, followed by TRUMPETS #1 - 6, followed by BOWLS # 1- 6; ENDING with the hour of Babylon's destruction which is SEALS #6 - 7, TRUMPET #7, BOWL #7.

In my opinion, this is the only way the sequence of events in Revelation make sense. This order is taken from an article written long ago, in the well-respected Journal of the Theological Evangelical Society authored by Dale Ralph Davis. It was not an easy read - at least for me.
https://www.etsjets.org/files/JETS-PDFs/16/16-3/16-3-pp149-158_JETS.pdf

 

[Jamdoc]

As I wrote earlier, Revelation is not totally chronological/sequential. My point all along has been that the saints are taken up just prior to the time of trial/testing that is to come upon the whole world which Jesus promised to the Church of Philadelphia in Rev 3:10. "Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth."

Question: Which hour is Jesus referring to? Answer: the hour that he returns as a thief; i.e. rapture.

Mt 24:42-43 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into.
Lk 12:40 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
Jn 5:25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.

Thus Jesus stated that we won't know the specific hour of his return as a thief, but He does provide us with the general time frame in Rev 16:15-16.
“Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.” And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.

Jesus himself stated that He is coming as a thief just prior to Armageddon - which is the hour of the destruction of Babylon. This perfectly parallels these verses which confirm that the hour references Babylon's destruction:
Rev 18:10 standing at a distance for fear of her torment, saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! For in one hour your judgment has come.’
Rev 18:17 For in one hour such great riches came to nothing.’ Every shipmaster, all who travel by ship, sailors, and as many as trade on the sea, stood at a distance
Rev 18:18 “They threw dust on their heads and cried out, weeping and wailing, and saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great city, in which all who had ships on the sea became rich by her wealth! For in one hour she is made desolate.’

Thus we can conclude that the rapture where Jesus comes as a thief at a certain hour is the same hour where God judges the Babylon world system. The rapture occurs at the end of the tribulation - not before as Pre-tribbers believe. The rapture and 2nd Coming are one and same event - not two events.

With that established, you you asked how can this time frame be true when at the "6th seal, Jesus returns for His saints, 7th seal, wrath of God begins, wrath of God goes on for some time, months, years probably, then Babylon destroyed in an hour, then Jesus comes on a white horse WITH His saints, destroys the Antichrist."

My answer is that John's Revelation is sequential in terms of the seals, trumpets and bowls being in chronological order. The seals are followed by the trumpets which in turn are followed lastly by the bowl judgments. HOWEVER, the 6-7th seal, 7th trumpet and 7th bowl are the same event - which only occurs after the 6th bowl. The order looks like this:
SEALS #1 - 5, followed by TRUMPETS #1 - 6, followed by BOWLS # 1- 6; ENDING with the hour of Babylon's destruction which is SEALS #6 - 7, TRUMPET #7, BOWL #7.

In my opinion, this is the only way the sequence of events in Revelation make sense. This order is taken from an article written long ago, in the well-respected Journal of the Theological Evangelical Society authored by Dale Ralph Davis. It was not an easy read - at least for me.
https://www.etsjets.org/files/JETS-PDFs/16/16-3/16-3-pp149-158_JETS.pdf

I see the order as seals 1-5 (the tribulation, caused by man/antichrist), 6 (rapture), 7 (sealing of the 144,000 and the angels with the last plagues come). Then Trumpet 1/Vial 1 all the way to Trumpet 7/Vial 7, the trumpets and vials kind of go hand in hand and happen simultaneously, because Revelation 12 kind of starts over. It's describing events that took place in the past in some cases, then brings you back up to future events towards the end. Revelation 13 going more into detail about what's going on with the first five seals. 14 what's going on in heaven during that time just when the 7th seal is happening, then the 7 vials (that go with the 7 trumpets) happen, then the destruction of babylon, then the battle of armageddon.
But key thing is, there is time between the 6th seal, and the destruction of Babylon, I don't think seals are done out of order, I don't think the vials and trumpets come before the seals either.
I read it as seals -> trumpets and vials -> babylon/armageddon.

 

[Oldmantook]

I see the order as seals 1-5 (the tribulation, caused by man/antichrist), 6 (rapture), 7 (sealing of the 144,000 and the angels with the last plagues come). Then Trumpet 1/Vial 1 all the way to Trumpet 7/Vial 7, the trumpets and vials kind of go hand in hand and happen simultaneously, because Revelation 12 kind of starts over. It's describing events that took place in the past in some cases, then brings you back up to future events towards the end. Revelation 13 going more into detail about what's going on with the first five seals. 14 what's going on in heaven during that time just when the 7th seal is happening, then the 7 vials (that go with the 7 trumpets) happen, then the destruction of babylon, then the battle of armageddon.
But key thing is, there is time between the 6th seal, and the destruction of Babylon, I don't think seals are done out of order, I don't think the vials and trumpets come before the seals either.
I read it as seals -> trumpets and vials -> babylon/armageddon.

I already showed you the verses that state that the hour refers to when Jesus comes as a thief. In Rev 16:15-16 Jesus himself plainly stated that he is coming as a thief right before the battle of Armageddon. We both know that the rapture refers to when Jesus comes as a thief. Therefore Jesus comes as a thief not after the 5th seal as you claim but just prior to the end of tribulation. You have yet to account for that huge discrepancy in your view.

 

[Jamdoc]

I already showed you the verses that state that the hour refers to when Jesus comes as a thief. In Rev 16:15-16 Jesus himself plainly stated that he is coming as a thief right before the battle of Armageddon. We both know that the rapture refers to when Jesus comes as a thief. Therefore Jesus comes as a thief not after the 5th seal as you claim but just prior to the end of tribulation. You have yet to account for that huge discrepancy in your view.

Revelation 3:3
It'll be like a thief if you're not watching, but
1 Thessalonians 5:4-6
Jesus Himself said there are signs that we can recognize if we're watching them
Luke 21:28

 

[bbbbbbb]

If that happens, what consequences happens when goes to heaven.

Goodness gracious me, any sin can be quite sufficient to result in a premature physical death. For example, a Christian in China can, quite conceivably, lie to the Communist Party in order to protect other Christians from certain persecution. The government then has a legal right to put the lying Christian to death. Thus, according to certain folks, that Christian will spend an eternity in the lake of fire for having engaged in utter lawlessness by telling the one lie.

 

[Oldmantook]

Revelation 3:3
It'll be like a thief if you're not watching, but
1 Thessalonians 5:4-6
Jesus Himself said there are signs that we can recognize if we're watching them
Luke 21:28

Why have you not addressed the fact that Jesus plainly stated that he is coming as a thief (v.15) right before the battle of Armageddon (v.16)??

 

[Jamdoc]

Why have you not addressed the fact that Jesus plainly stated that he is coming as a thief (v.15) right before the battle of Armageddon (v.16)??

I just did, for the world it will seem to come out of nowhere.
For those who are watching for it, they'll know it's coming soon.
Why tell people to look to the sky for their salvation is near if it's just going to sneak up on them?

 

[Johan_1988]

You don't build an ark even though God gave a commandment to Noah to build one because you rightly divide the word of truth correct?

You read Galatians 2:9?

And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

It is most interesting that the order of the letters written to the circumcised followed this exact order as it is placed in the Bible,

The book of James
The books of 1 and 2 Peter
finally, the books of 1-3 John.

Isn't that the divine order by the Holy Spirit?

Hi. No we would build an ark in is obvious that there were certain instructions made to people and different covenants made to particular people we as gentiles cannot take those things as not for us since there is lessons we can draw from it and meaning we can extract form it. You seem to make the story of Noah insignificant to us Christians, but is it not an type of Christs salvation from the wrath of God on the Godless and unbelieving. The temple, its ornaments and the priesthood in the OT, is it not made after the pattern of heaven?:

Heb 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

Those letters might have been addressed to the Jews, but it does not mean that is a truth for Jews only. Christians whether they are ethnically Jewish or some other race follow the same doctrine. Paul rebuked Peter for following a Jewish custom that was against NT doctrine in that same chapter you mentioned Gal ch:2.

Gal 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
Gal 2:12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
Gal 2:13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
Gal 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

 

[Guojing]

Hi. No we would build an ark in is obvious that there were certain instructions made to people and different covenants made to particular people we as gentiles cannot take those things as not for us since there is lessons we can draw from it and meaning we can extract form it. You seem to make the story of Noah insignificant to us Christians, but is it not an type of Christs salvation from the wrath of God on the Godless and unbelieving. The temple, its ornaments and the priesthood in the OT, is it not made after the pattern of heaven?:

Heb 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

Those letters might have been addressed to the Jews, but it does not mean that is a truth for Jews only. Christians whether they are ethnically Jewish or some other race follow the same doctrine. Paul rebuked Peter for following a Jewish custom that was against NT doctrine in that same chapter you mentioned Gal ch:2.

Gal 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
Gal 2:12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
Gal 2:13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
Gal 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

No, my point is that you can learn from the epistles of James Peter and John, without thinking the instructions there are directed to you, just as how you respond towards Noah building the ark.

 

[Oldmantook]

I just did, for the world it will seem to come out of nowhere.
For those who are watching for it, they'll know it's coming soon.
Why tell people to look to the sky for their salvation is near if it's just going to sneak up on them?

I don't think so. You claim the rapture comes at the 6th seal. Jesus stated in Rev 16:15-16 that the rapture occurs just prior to Armageddon. Comprende?

 

[Jamdoc]

I don't think so. You claim the rapture comes at the 6th seal. Jesus stated in Rev 16:15-16 that the rapture occurs just prior to Armageddon. Comprende?

I'm not seeing rapture there. I'm seeing gathering for the battle of armageddon.

Gathering the elect is Revelation 6, corresponding to matthew 24 and 1 thessalonians 4.
Revelation 16 is gathering the world, as in, not the saved, at least not saved by the sixth seal.

 

[Oldmantook]

I'm not seeing rapture there. I'm seeing gathering for the battle of armageddon.

Gathering the elect is Revelation 6, corresponding to matthew 24 and 1 thessalonians 4.
Revelation 16 is gathering the world, as in, not the saved, at least not saved by the sixth seal.

Then you are blind to v.15 which states: "I am coming as a thief...." In case you didn't know, the RAPTURE = JESUS COMING AS A THIEF. Why don't you know that? You already quoted Rev 3:3 and 1 Thes 5:4-6.

 

[Jamdoc]

Then you are blind to v.15 which states: "I am coming as a thief...." In case you didn't know, the RAPTURE = JESUS COMING AS A THIEF. Why don't you know that? You already quoted Rev 3:3 and 1 Thes 5:4-6.

and I just explained, He said for us to watch and wait so that it didn't overtake us as a thief.
He told us signs to watch for, so that we can be anticipating it.
The world that doesn't read the bible and doesn't take heed of the signs that Jesus spoke of WILL be overtaken as a thief.

 

[Oldmantook]

and I just explained, He said for us to watch and wait so that it didn't overtake us as a thief.
He told us signs to watch for, so that we can be anticipating it.
The world that doesn't read the bible and doesn't take heed of the signs that Jesus spoke of WILL be overtaken as a thief.

You explained nothing. Jesus explained that he comes as a thief right before Armageddon which totally contradicts your timing of the events. I prefer to believe Jesus.

 

[Jamdoc]

You explained nothing. Jesus explained that he comes as a thief right before Armageddon which totally contradicts your timing of the events. I prefer to believe Jesus.

So you refuse to listen to Jesus in Luke 21:28?

28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

He tells us signs, tells us that our redemption is drawing nigh when these signs take place,
and yet you're still saying oh it's gonna happen suddenly with no warning like a thief in the night.
It doesn't jive.
what does jive is Jesus telling those who are willing to listen to Him what to look for, so they'll be anticipating it, while the rest of the world that doesn't listen to Jesus will be caught off guard.
So for those who are asleep, overtaken like by a thief in the night
for those watching and waiting, it doesn't.
1 Thessalonians 5:4

 

[Oldmantook]

So you refuse to listen to Jesus in Luke 21:28?


He tells us signs, tells us that our redemption is drawing nigh when these signs take place,
and yet you're still saying oh it's gonna happen suddenly with no warning like a thief in the night.
It doesn't jive.
what does jive is Jesus telling those who are willing to listen to Him what to look for, so they'll be anticipating it, while the rest of the world that doesn't listen to Jesus will be caught off guard.
So for those who are asleep, overtaken like by a thief in the night
for those watching and waiting, it doesn't.
1 Thessalonians 5:4

Do you even understand what I wrote?? How can you claim that the "rapture" comes at the 6th seal, even before the trumpet and bowl judgments when Jesus himself stated that he comes as a thief/rapture at the end of the tribulation period right before Armageddon. Explain yourself or don't bother replying.

 

[Jamdoc]

Do you even understand what I wrote?? How can you claim that the "rapture" comes at the 6th seal, even before the trumpet and bowl judgments when Jesus himself stated that he comes as a thief/rapture at the end of the tribulation period right before Armageddon. Explain yourself or don't bother replying.

Easy.
The tribulation is the first 5 seals. Not the vials and trumpets. Those are the wrath of God.
God promised us tribulation, He also promised to spare us from His wrath. The tribulations, great tribulation, and wrath of God are separate things. The tribulations and great tribulation are caused by the antichrist. The wrath of God is caused by God.
The Great Tribulation is signified by the 5th seal, that's when you suddenly have the souls of saints who were killed appearing in Heaven crying out for vengeance

from Revelation 6

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Note that before this, was the 5th seal, or the Great Tribulation

from Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

So, Revelation is referring to this event in Matthew 24
Luke 21 gives a different perspective

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

Now compare Matthew 24 to 1 Thessalonians 4, and you'll see that all 3 (well 4 really with Luke) are talking about the same event. Jesus coming in the clouds and the dead in Christ rising up and those who are still alive being caught up to meet Him in the clouds, where we get the term "rapture" from.

from Matthew 24

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

from 1 Thessalonians 4

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Just to tie it all up too note in that Matthew 24:30, the mourning of the tribes of the earth..
Revelation 6

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

All the same event, the 2nd Coming of Christ, happening with the rapture, but before the 7 trumpets and 7 vials of God's wrath.
You have to understand the difference between tribulation and God's wrath, or it'll never make sense and you'll have to Tarrantino the order of events to have any consistency.