Savior of the World, or Eternal Failure?

ClementofA · May 13, 2020

Der Alte said:
I only had one argument which has NOT been disproved.
Jesus did not say, or imply "night is coming when I cannot work but don't worry I'll be back." Jesus did not preach to Paul in the flesh. He said "no man can work" And those who have died cannot work.

What argument? Where does any of that, or anything in John 9, say, imply, suggest or even hint that maybe people cannot repent or be saved after death? It looks to me like you've got nothing.

Jesus did not say, as you allege, "those who have died cannot work". And even if that were true, their resurrection from death back to life might reverse that.

Jesus said "night cometh, when no man can work". He didn't say "once night cometh no man will ever have another chance to repent or be saved".

What does it matter if "Jesus did not preach to Paul in the flesh". Work is work, regardless. As is His intercession, raising the dead, judging the world, etc.

Since He appeared to & spoke to His disciples & preached postmortem, then such works continued & nothing in John 9 rules out Jesus doing so in Hades & the LOF for the repentance & salvation of those there.

Moreover the context in John 9 isn't even talking about salvation, but healing a blind man so he can see:

1And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. 2And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? 3Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him. 4I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work. 5As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world. 6When he had thus spoken, he spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and he anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay, 7And said unto him, Go, wash in the pool of Siloam, (which is by interpretation, Sent.) He went his way therefore, and washed, and came seeing. 8The neighbours therefore, and they which before had seen him that he was blind, said, Is not this he that sat and begged? 9Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I am he. 10Therefore said they unto him, How were thine eyes opened? 11He answered and said, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed mine eyes, and said unto me, Go to the pool of Siloam, and wash: and I went and washed, and I received sight. 12Then said they unto him, Where is he? He said, I know not.

Saint Steven · May 13, 2020

I have never believed that by teaching the ultimate salvation of all men we were pitting one group of Scriptures against another, for it is my conviction that the solution can only be found in the correct HARMONIZATION of all the Scriptures, not ignoring one group while advancing the other. I believe I speak by the Spirit of God when I assert that the only sensible harmonization of all the Scriptures lies in the fact that Jesus is indeed THE SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN, that He is in very fact THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD, and that HE WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED and come to the knowledge of the truth, DRAWING ALL MEN UNTO HIMSELF. To me this is a most glorious and wonderful fact! I find all the judgments of God to be correctional and disciplinary rather than vindictive and final. Therein lays the harmonization of which I speak. This leaves us free to believe ALL of God's Word. It magnifies the cross. It glorifies God. It honors the atonement. It gives meaning to the ministry of the Sons of God. It gives purpose to the ages yet to come, all planned and arranged beforehand by our wonderful Creator. Sin, judgment, and death are temporary, all to be dealt with by the mighty power of God invested in His saints. The entire universe will be reconciled to God through the blood of Christ's cross. God will become All-in-All. Here is a God worthy of your worship and adoration!

Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

Der Alte · May 13, 2020

Saint Steven said:
I have never believed that by teaching the ultimate salvation of all men we were pitting one group of Scriptures against another, for it is my conviction that the solution can only be found in the correct HARMONIZATION of all the Scriptures, not ignoring one group while advancing the other. I believe I speak by the Spirit of God when I assert that the only sensible harmonization of all the Scriptures lies in the fact that Jesus is indeed THE SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN, that He is in very fact THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD, and that HE WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED and come to the knowledge of the truth, DRAWING ALL MEN UNTO HIMSELF. To me this is a most glorious and wonderful fact! I find all the judgments of God to be correctional and disciplinary rather than vindictive and final. Therein lays the harmonization of which I speak. This leaves us free to believe ALL of God's Word. It magnifies the cross. It glorifies God. It honors the atonement. It gives meaning to the ministry of the Sons of God. It gives purpose to the ages yet to come, all planned and arranged beforehand by our wonderful Creator. Sin, judgment, and death are temporary, all to be dealt with by the mighty power of God invested in His saints. The entire universe will be reconciled to God through the blood of Christ's cross. God will become All-in-All. Here is a God worthy of your worship and adoration!
Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby.

Too bad that so many people are being deceived by a false teacher who profits from sales of his books. In his own biography Eby has no stated qualifications in Hebrew or Greek. He does not quote any Greek lexicons or grammars yet his writings are quoted as authoritative by more that one UR poster in this forum. Caveat Emptor..

ClementofA · May 13, 2020

Der Alte said:
Too bad that so many people are being deceived by a false teacher who profits from sales of his books.

Do you think he has struck a gold mine compared to all the income sources (Bible versions, book sales, donations, etc) by endless tortures advocates? Is his net worth within 10 million dollars of that of Jimmy Swaggart, Peter Popoff or Pat Robertson? Does he live in a mansion with a fleet of expensive cars & wear expensive jewelry?

Der Alte said:
In his own biography Eby has no stated qualifications in Hebrew or Greek.

Even if he was the Pope of Greek scholars, it would make no difference to those following their pastor's teaching on endless sufferings for teens who died without ever hearing the gospel.

Moreover scholars disagree with scholars, so does it matter if he doesn't have any qualifications? Can people not compare what the scholars on opposing sides have said & prayerfully reach their own conclusions with the Lord as their Teacher?

1 John 2:27
And as for you, the anointing you received from Him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But just as His true and genuine anointing teaches you about all things, so remain in Him as you have been taught.

Der Alte said:
He does not quote any Greek lexicons or grammars yet his writings are quoted as authoritative by more that one UR poster in this forum. Caveat Emptor..

Even if that were true, how do you know what he has read of them?

The Pharisees were the scholars of the day, but look what Jesus says:

Matthew 13:11
He replied, "The knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.

Psalm 119:100
I discern more than the elders, because I obey Your precepts.

1 Corinthians 2:15
The spiritual man judges all things, but he himself is not subject to anyone's judgment.

Jeremiah 8:8
"'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?

Could most modern translations be in error?

Saint Steven · May 13, 2020

ClementofA said:
Do you think he has struck a gold mine compared to all the income sources (Bible versions, book sales, donations, etc) by endless tortures advocates? Is his net worth within 10 million dollars of that of Jimmy Swaggart, Peter Popoff or Pat Robertson? Does he live in a mansion with a fleet of expensive cars & wear expensive jewelry?

Even if he was the Pope of Greek scholars, it would make no difference to those following their pastor's teaching on endless sufferings for teens who died without ever hearing the gospel.

Looks like our opponents have to resort to cheap shots since they are out of ammo otherwise. They have been shooting blanks all along anyway.

Der Alte · May 13, 2020

ClementofA said:
Do you think he has struck a gold mine compared to all the income sources (Bible versions, book sales, donations, etc) by endless tortures advocates? Is his net worth within 10 million dollars of that of Jimmy Swaggart, Peter Popoff or Pat Robertson? Does he live in a mansion with a fleet of expensive cars & wear expensive jewelry?
* * *
Could most modern translations be in error?

If anyone quotes any of those guys, discuss that with them. I have never quoted any of them and never will. Eby is in the same league with all the guys you referred to. If someone is going to tell people what Hebrew and Greek words "really" mean they should have formal studies in both languages. Eby does not list such qualifications. Everything he says about Greek and Hebrew is nothing but his own unsupported opinion.
I would not go to a doctor, lawyer, accountant etc. who did not have the proper education. And unlike many on this forum I don't argue with doctors, lawyers, accountants etc. about their understanding about their fields.

nolidad · May 13, 2020

FineLinen said:
You poor dear lad: punishment has one purpose. That purpose = change & transformation, not unending torture.

"This IS aionios zoe that we might know You..."

Your unfounded and undefended opinion! The bible proves you wrong.

nolidad · May 13, 2020

FineLinen said:
Ta pavnte is all encompassing. It is NOT the radical all of pas, it is the super radical "the all."

By these three prepositions Paul ascribes the universe (ta panta) with all the phenomena concerning creation, redemption, providence to God as the…

Ex= The Source

Di= The Agent

Eiv= The Goal

The Koine, ta pavnte, is the strongest word for all in the Scriptures; it literally means the all.

ta pavnte/ ta panta, “in the absolute sense of the whole of creation, the all things, the universe, and, everything in heaven and earth that is in need of uniting and redeeming.”

**It is not in the limited sense of “nearly all”, “pavnte” minus “ta”

The final preposition [eiv) reveals the ultimate goal of all that is. What has been provided in Christ is a re-turn, a re-storation, a re-newing, a re-demption, a re-concilation, a re-surrection, a re-stitution.

The prefix “re” means back again, again, anew–and all the words with this prefix speak of something that left its place and has now made its circuit and come back to the point of its beginning.

In the Christian story God descends to reascend. He comes down… down to the very roots and sea-bed of the Nature He has created. But He goes down to come up again and bring the whole ruined world up with Him. -C.S. Lewis

So then you do believe that the coronavirus, the ebola virus, and pneumoccal bacteria will be in heaven then. Well we will insure that all fo them are in your room in the Fathers house!

But if you knew the correct definition of ta pante or "the all" you would be shocked!

Der Alte · May 13, 2020

ClementofA said:
Jeremiah 8:8
"'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?
Could most modern translations be in error?

Is this supposed to be evidence that modern Bibles are in error?
Jer 8:8 was written about 700 BC and was speaking and referring to the scribes of his day. Now in context.
Jeremiah 8:8-10
8 How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he it; the pen of the scribes is in vain.
9 The wise men are ashamed, they are dismayed and taken: lo, they have rejected the word of the LORD; and what wisdom is in them?
10 Therefore will I give their wives unto others, and their fields to them that shall inherit them: for every one from the least even unto the greatest is given to covetousness, from the prophet even unto the priest every one dealeth falsely.
Jeremiah 8:13
13 I will surely consume them, saith the LORD: there shall be no grapes on the vine, nor figs on the fig tree, and the leaf shall fade; and the things that I have given them shall pass away from them.
Jeremiah 8:17
17 For, behold, I will send serpents, cockatrices, among you, which will not be charmed, and they shall bite you, saith the LORD.

Notice that God immediately punished the lying scribes, ca. 700 BC. Now should we assume that God left the lying words of the false scribes in the Bible for the last 2700+ years?
Let us read from another prophet contemporary with Jeremiah.

Isaiah 55:11
11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

ClementofA · May 13, 2020

Der Alte said:
If someone is going to tell people what Hebrew and Greek words "really" mean they should have formal studies in both languages.

Even if he was the Pope of Greek scholars, it would make no difference to those following their pastor's teaching on endless sufferings for teens who died without ever hearing the gospel.

Moreover scholars disagree with scholars, so does it matter if he doesn't have any qualifications? Can people not compare what the scholars on opposing sides have said & prayerfully reach their own conclusions with the Lord as their Teacher?

1 John 2:27
And as for you, the anointing you received from Him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But just as His true and genuine anointing teaches you about all things, so remain in Him as you have been taught.

Der Alte said:
Eby does not list such qualifications.

Pot-kettle. Where have you posted your qualifications listed by a reliable source? Nowhere. Yet you post your pet aion/ios/olam theories as irrefutable facts when you can't support them with a single source in the past 10,000 years, whether by scholars or amateurs such as yourself.

Der Alte said:
Everything he says about Greek and Hebrew is nothing but his own unsupported opinion.

If you think you can disprove any of it, that might be more productive & edifying than this sort of chit chat.

Der Alte said:
I would not go to a doctor, lawyer, accountant etc. who did not have the proper education.

Personally i have found that doctors, like lexicons, can be quite unreliable & it could save your health or even your life to check into whatever they are advising or prescribing, in case they erred.

Der Alte said:
And unlike many on this forum I don't argue with doctors, lawyers, accountants etc. about their understanding about their fields.

The fact is they often disagree with one another & err. And how would you know what Eby has studied or what the Lord has taught him?

ClementofA · May 13, 2020

Der Alte said:
Is this supposed to be evidence that modern Bibles are in error?

Did anyone suggest such?

If you're interested in evidence:

Could most modern translations be in error?

Examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

Two Questions
Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

nolidad · May 13, 2020

ClementofA said:
What words?

aion (noun) or aionios (adjective)

ClementofA said:
It speaks of "men" not "believers":

Lam.3:31For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
33For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve THE CHILDREN OF MEN. (KJV, emphasis mine)

So your contention is God never grieves or afflicts teh children of men then. OK! WOW!!

ClementofA said:
I've already stated that the translation "punishment" is fine with me. The question remains whether or not it is corrective punishment or purely pointless, sadistic & monstrous punishment.

Since aionios in the same verse (Mt.25:46) often refers to finite duration in ancient Koine Greek & there were better words to express endlessness unambiguously, it should be evident that Jesus was not teaching the endless tortures doctrine there.

Well as the greek dictionaries online when you look up eternal all use aionios, you are up a creek without a paddle! Once again the stiffly literal definition is age enduring. But as the punishment and life that are attached to aionios happen in the age (time frame) we call eternity- the punishment is eternal! Please find a better apologist for trying to defend why ainios kolasis in Mt. 25 is temporary and aionios zoe is everlasting. You r guy you posted is just laughable!

The only words used for eternal, everlasting or forever are aidios (2X) aionios 25X) and aion (49X)
so the translators seemed to know more than your re-interpreters!

ClementofA said:
Do you have verse references?

If you recall Israel in the OT were given "exhortations" by the prophets. When the people refused to listen & continued in wickedness, God felt the need to bring actual punishment upon the people, often with the intent to correct them. Evidently those of Mt.25:46 will be in need of something more than just "exhortations", even though Jesus gives them a few words before sending them off into the "fire". As we saw with the rich man in "fire" in "torments" in Luke 16:19-31, he was called "son" or "child" & was receiving corrective instructions.

The only word for chastening for correction or improvement in the bible is paideia! The other three are simply the other words Greeks used and use to denote any type of discipline for correction and they do not appear in the Bible.

ClementofA said:
Considering they appear to be as bad or worse than those of Mt.25:46, it would appear to support my view that the goats are to be receiving corrective punishment. As opposed to pointless endless Hitler like gassing or tortures that have no end. Which Jesus could have expressed very clearly & unambiguously, if He desired or if He believed in such. But He didn't.

But He does and He did express in the words that are used to describe never ending! Once teh three words used to define eternal are aion, aionios and aidios!

When aion or aidios are to be understood as less than eternal there are clear modifiers in the statement. Ex. The apostolic age would be hos aion apostolos! But when there is not a limiting word it has been translated as age enduring (aionios) or ever (aion) or eternal (aionios & aidios) there is no ambiguity except for you and those who cannot accept Scripture as written.

ClementofA said:
(1) The aionion life & the aionion punishment refer to contrasting eonian destinies pertaining to a finite eonian period to come, e.g. the millennial eon. The verse has nothing to do, & says nothing about, final destiny. Regarding the endless life of the righteous in Christ, other passages address that topic, such as those that speak of immortality, incorruption & being unable to die.

Specifically yes. But then you create the problem that those who have aionios zoe in teh millenial can lose it and end up in the lake of fire! For which you still have not provided one verse that shows there is any hope of repentance.

You already admitted that the residents of the Lake of Fire are not Gods Children so then they do not receive paideia (chastening to correct but timora (torment or torture!) And as kolasis is used twice-it is punitive in its dimension. You have yet to show linguistically or doctrinally (though you have provided plenty of opinion) that kolasis is corrective in nature. Especially inlight of the evidence I gave you from Greek etymology!

ClementofA said:
And further to Israel being corrected with punishment in the OT with something more severe than mere "exhortations", since they obviously were not working to bring them to repentance:

Hab.1:12 O LORD my God, my Holy One, you who are eternal--surely you do not plan to wipe us out? O LORD, our Rock, you have sent these Babylonians to correct us, to punish us for our many sins.

Because I have sinned against him, I will bear the LORD’s wrath, until he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light;I will see his righteousness. (Micah 7:9)

Isaiah 12:1
Then you will say on that day, "I will give thanks to You, O LORD; For although You were angry with me, Your anger is turned away, And You comfort me.

Hosea 6:1
"Come, let us return to the LORD. For He has torn us, but He will heal us; He has wounded us, but He will bandage us.

Isa.57:17 “Because of the iniquity of his unjust gain I was angry and struck him;
I hid My face and was angry, And he went on turning away, in the way of his heart.

18“I have seen his ways, but I will heal him;
I will lead him and restore comfort to him and to his mourners,

And in the NT we see the same, even in regards to postmortem punishment:

Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

In 1 Cor.5 a sinning "brother" is not listening to the "exhortations" of the church. So he is given over for harsher dealings, i.e. to Satan for the destruction of his flesh. This is for his salvation.

In 1 Tim.1:19-20 two people who have rejected faith and a good conscience & made shipwreck of their faith are also given to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme. These two appear to be even worse sinners than those in Matthew 25:31-46.

Moreover in the very first chapter of Matthew we read:

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

The "His people" referred to are Israel (2:6) of the context, i.e. the OT nation. IOW people like Judas Iscariot, the son of perdition, & the Pharisees who opposed Christ. Matthew 25:46 should be understood in that light. He "shall save His people from their sins" (Mt.1:21).

BTW the book of Matthew is the first book of the NT, Revelation being the last. In the very first chapter of the first book of the NT, God declares the end (Mt.1:21) from the beginning:

Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: (Isa.46:10)

What's God's "pleasure" which He will do (Isa.46:10):

And you simply forget that these are Gods covenanted people that is being spoken of! His anger endures against them for a perriod, but God always remember his Chased to israel!

YOu forget that the gentiles were without hope and without God in the World as gentiles!

ClementofA said:
1 Tim.2:4 who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth; 5 for one [is] God, one also [is] mediator of God and of men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who did give himself a ransom for all — the testimony in its own times

And you forgot the verse in Peter that says God is not willing that any should perish. But this is not His sovereign will but his desire!

G138; to determine (as an active option from subjective impulse; whereas G1014 properly denotes rather a passive acquiescence in objective considerations), i.e. choose or prefer (literally or figuratively); by implication, to wish, i.e. be inclined to (sometimes adverbially, gladly); impersonally for the future tense, to be about to; by Hebraism, to delight in:—desire, be disposed (forward), intend, list, love, mean, please, have rather, (be) will (have, -ling, - ling(-ly)).

So it is Gods desire that all men be saved! Not His sovereign will that all men will be saved! This is what learning how to navigate greek teaches! So you do not get tossed to and fro by every wind of unsound doctrine!

Saint Steven · May 13, 2020

ClementofA said:
Even if he was the Pope of Greek scholars, it would make no difference to those following their pastor's teaching on endless sufferings for teens who died without ever hearing the gospel.

Formal studies. - lol

Acts 4:13
When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus.

ClementofA · May 13, 2020

nolidad said:
So your contention is God never grieves or afflicts teh children of men then. OK! WOW!!

Not at all. Is that your interpretation of the passage i quoted:

Lam.3:31For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
33For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve THE CHILDREN OF MEN. (KJV, emphasis mine)

Maybe surveying some other versions will clear things up for you:

Lamentations 3:33 For He does not willingly afflict or grieve the sons of men.

nolidad said:
Well as the greek dictionaries online when you look up eternal all use aionios, you are up a creek without a paddle! Once again the stiffly literal definition is age enduring. But as the punishment and life that are attached to aionios happen in the age (time frame) we call eternity- the punishment is eternal!

That is just a collection of unsupported opinion &/or outright false statements.

nolidad said:
The other three are simply the other words Greeks used and use to denote any type of discipline for correction and they do not appear in the Bible.

When? Around the time of Plato? Please provide documented proof.

nolidad said:
When aion or aidios are to be understood as less than eternal there are clear modifiers in the statement. Ex. The apostolic age would be hos aion apostolos! But when there is not a limiting word it has been translated as age enduring (aionios) or ever (aion) or eternal (aionios & aidios) there is no ambiguity except for you and those who cannot accept Scripture as written.

Context determines meaning. Not your conjecture, speculation or unsupported theories.

Could most modern translations be in error?

the finiteness of "eternal life" (aionion zoe) in John:

Savior of the World, or Eternal Failure?

nolidad said:
Specifically yes. But then you create the problem that those who have aionios zoe in teh millenial can lose it and end up in the lake of fire!

No. Believers receive immortality when Christ returns. True endless life.

nolidad said:
For which you still have not provided one verse that shows there is any hope of repentance.

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Prayer & fasting might help.

nolidad said:
You already admitted that the residents of the Lake of Fire are not Gods Children so then they do not receive paideia (chastening to correct but timora (torment or torture!)

Timoria occurs in Hebrews 10:29 regarding Divinely sanctioned punishment & is, arguably, applicable to postmortem punishment:

10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Generally capital punishment under Moses' law was by stoning. Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

According to the Scriptures, God is Love Omnipotent, not a mythical deception infinitely worse than Hitler, Bin Laden & Satan combined.

nolidad said:
And you simply forget that these are Gods covenanted people that is being spoken of! His anger endures against them for a perriod, but God always remember his Chased to israel!

The point is that there are corrections beyond the mere "exhortations" you referred to. So your "exhortations" argument is dismissed.

nolidad said:
YOu forget that the gentiles were without hope and without God in the World as gentiles!

No. And do you have a point?

nolidad said:
And you forgot the verse in Peter that says God is not willing that any should perish. But this is not His sovereign will but his desire!

G138; to determine (as an active option from subjective impulse; whereas G1014 properly denotes rather a passive acquiescence in objective considerations), i.e. choose or prefer (literally or figuratively); by implication, to wish, i.e. be inclined to (sometimes adverbially, gladly); impersonally for the future tense, to be about to; by Hebraism, to delight in:—desire, be disposed (forward), intend, list, love, mean, please, have rather, (be) will (have, -ling, - ling(-ly)).

So it is Gods desire that all men be saved! Not His sovereign will that all men will be saved! This is what learning how to navigate greek teaches! So you do not get tossed to and fro by every wind of unsound doctrine!

"The following is a simple, clear syllogism supporting Universalism. This syllogism is an argument built on premises taken directly from Scripture.

Premise 1: God desires all be saved. (e.g., 1 Timothy 2:4: "[God] who desires (thelo) all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.")

Premise 2: God accomplishes all He desires. (e.g., Isaiah 55:11: "So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire (thelo, from the Septuagint), And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.")

Conclusion: All will be saved."

1 Timothy 2:4 + God does all He desires = all will be saved?

Saint Steven · May 13, 2020

ClementofA said:
Conclusion: All will be saved.

There we go. That's all they need to know. - lol

1 Timothy 2:3-4
This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved
and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

Saint Steven · May 13, 2020

Several brethren have written or discussed this subject with me through the years, adamant against the truth I see. But their arguments are shallow and twisted and their spirits generally harsh against men whom God loves and for whom the Christ died, as though they wanted to make CERTAIN that everybody gets every thing they "deserve." Their theology is lopsided, distorted, out of balance, and it will be smashed in the end! Those who walk in that attitude know but little of the love of Him who is at the same time the JUDGE OF ALL and the SAVIOUR OF ALL. He is not the Judge of some and the Saviour of some, but both Judge and Saviour of ALL! If "Judge of ALL" means that He judges all, then "Saviour of ALL" must mean that He saves all, for the Scriptures plainly make both statements. Within that one fact again can be seen the HARMONIZATION of the justice and the love of God - His judgment leading to repentance and a knowledge of His mercy. Praise His wonderful name!

Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

Saint Steven · May 14, 2020

HOW MEN ARE SAVED

It is estimated that about one hundred and sixty billions of human beings have lived on the earth in the six thousand years since Adam departed from Eden. Of these, the very broadest estimate that could be made with reason would be that less than five billion were saints of God. This broad estimate would leave the immense aggregate of one hundred and fifty-five billions (155,000,000,000) who went down into death without faith and hope in the only name given under heaven or among men whereby we must be saved. Indeed, the vast majority of these never knew or heard of Jesus, and could not believe in Him of whom they had not heard. What, I ask, has become of this vast multitude, of which figures give a wholly inadequate idea? What is, and is to be, their condition? Did God make no provision for these, whose condition and circumstances He must have foreseen? Or did He, from the foundation of the world, make a wretched and merciless provision for their hopeless, eternal torment, as many of His children claim? To these questions, which every thinking Christian asks himself, and yearns to see answered truthfully, and in harmony with the character of God, comes a variety of answers:-

Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

Der Alte · May 14, 2020

ClementofA said:
Did anyone suggest such?
If you're interested in evidence:

Links to your prior posts are not evidence.

Examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

Irrelevant! Everybody knows that there are many figures of speech in the Bible. For example, the word "kosmos" means "world" but it is used many times to refer something which is not the entire planet.

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

Nonsense! Unless you have a graduate degree in Greek you are not qualified to even speculate which word would or would not have been better in any situation.
Irrelevant link omitted. Links to anonymous people giving their unsupported opinion are irrelevant.

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

You have no basis to claim what Jesus did or did not believe or which words you think He should have used.

Saint Steven said:
Formal studies. - lol
Acts 4:13
When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus.

Illogical argument. The disciples spoke and wrote in their own language it is irrelevant what their education level was. If someone today has no formal study in Hebrew/Greek they are not qualified to try to interpret the meaning of Hebrew/Greek words.

ClementofA · May 14, 2020

Der Alte said:
Links to your prior posts are not evidence.

It's what's in the posts that are evidence. Not links. Which you've never answered let alone refuted.

Der Alte said:
Irrelevant! Everybody knows that there are many figures of speech in the Bible. For example, the word "kosmos" means "world" but it is used many times to refer something which is not the entire planet.

Evidently BDAG disagrees with you. It lists at least 8 different meanings for KOSMOS. See below.

Der Alte said:
<ClementofA>I've read dozens of Koine Greek lexicons re aion and aionion, plus many other sources, and never seen one that agrees with your theory. I don't recall ever seeing any saying they have just one "inherent meaning". Neither BDAG or Bullinger express support for your theory. AFAIK no one in the past 2000 years agrees with it....<ClementofA>
Merriam-Webster Dictionary online.
Inherent-: involved in the constitution or essential character of something : belonging by nature or habit: intrinsic risks inherent in the venture
Something including a word cannot have more than one inherent meaning. The rest I might get back to tomorrow.
Remember my example of the word "kosmos" the inherent meaning is "world." But it is used several times to refer to something less than the entire planet earth. Those usages do not change the inherent meaning of "kosmos."

Kosmos is not aion, aionios,olam or ad.

Even for kosmos BDAG says nothing about any "inherent meaning" let alone that the word is confined to one & only one inherent meaning. In fact, BDAG lists at least 8 different meanings for the word:

Перевод κόσμος с греческого на все языки

and at least 4 different meanings for aion:

Перевод αἰών с греческого на все языки

and at least 3 different meanings for aionios:

Перевод αἰώνιος с греческого на все языки

BDB lists at least two different meanings for olam:

Strong's Hebrew: 5769. עוֹלָם (olam) -- long duration, antiquity, futurity

and multiple meanings for ad:

Strong's Hebrew: 5703. עַד (ad) -- perpetuity

Der Alte said:
Nonsense! Unless you have a graduate degree in Greek you are not qualified to even speculate which word would or would not have been better in any situation.

No, usage determines meaning. Aionios is often proven to be finite by many examples. Seldom, if ever, in Koine Greek does it indicate endlessness. Therefore it is a poor choice of a word if Jesus intended to use it to express endless punishment. He had multiple other clear & unambiguous words & expressions He could have used if it was His intention to warn about a future endless punishment.

Furthermore, we see here how your own quotes support that:

Der Alter said:
● ④οὐ marker of reinforced negation, in combination w. μή, οὐ μή has the effect of strengthening the negation (Kühner-G. II 221–23; Schwyzer II 317; Mlt. 187–92 [a thorough treatment of NT usage]; B-D-F §365; RLudwig: D. prophet. Wort 31 ’37, 272–79; JLee, NovT 27, ’85, 18–23; B-D-F §365.—Pla., Hdt. et al. [Kühner-G. loc. cit.]; SIG 1042, 16; POxy 119, 5, 14f; 903, 16; PGM 5, 279; 13, 321; LXX; TestAbr A 8 p. 85, 11 [Stone p. 46]; JosAs 20:3; GrBar 1:7; ApcEsdr 2:7; Just., D. 141, 2). οὐ μή is the most decisive way of negativing something in the future.[1]
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000)A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian Literature.(3rd Ed). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

If it's the "most decisive way of negating something in the future", why didn't God use it to say something like "unbelievers will never (ou me) be saved? You shot your own doctrine in the foot with that one.

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

Der Alter said:
● The combinations with οὐ μή also be noticed as, ουδεν οὐ μή (Lu. 10:19); οὐ μή se σε άνο ουδ ου σε εγκαταιπο (Heb. 13:5); ουκετι οὐ μή (Rev. 18:14). There is no denying the power of this accumulation of negatives. Cf. the English hymn "I'll never, no never, no never forsake."
Grammar Of The Greek New Testament In The Light Of Historical Research
By A. T. Robertson, M.A., D.D., Ll.D., Litt.D. p.1165.

Powerful negatives never used of the damnation of the lost.

I rest my case.

Der Alter said:
You have no basis to claim what Jesus did or did not believe or which words you think He should have used.

I disagree. See above.

Der Alter said:
Illogical argument. The disciples spoke and wrote in their own language it is irrelevant what their education level was.

Clearly the 12 disciples level of formal study was not much since they were "unlearned" fisherman, tax collectors, etc. If you were living then would you probably have appealed to the much more learned doctors (equivalent of PHD's) & scribes of the day?

Acts 4:13 When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus.

Der Alter said:
If someone today has no formal study in Hebrew/Greek they are not qualified to try to interpret the meaning of Hebrew/Greek words.

Scholars disagree with scholars, so does it matter if one doesn't have any "formal study"? Can people not learn on their own without being in a classroom? Can they not compare what the scholars on opposing sides have said & prayerfully reach their own conclusions with the Lord as their Teacher? Of course they can & do.

1 John 2:27
And as for you, the anointing you received from Him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But just as His true and genuine anointing teaches you about all things, so remain in Him as you have been taught.

Saint Steven · May 14, 2020

CALVINISM ANSWERS: God is all-wise; He knew the end from the beginning; and as all His purposes shall be accomplished, He never could have intended to save any but a few, the Church. These He elected and fore-ordained to be eternally saved; all others were equally fore-ordained and elected to be lost - to go to eternal torment; and they are there now, writhing in indescribable agony, where they will ever remain, without hope.

ARMINIANISM ANSWERS: Yes, God is love; and in bringing humanity into the world He meant them no harm - only good. But Satan succeeded in tempting the first pair, and thus sin entered into the world, and death by sin. And ever since, God has been doing all He can to deliver man from his enemy, even to the giving of His Son. And though now, six thousand years after, the Gospel has reached only a very small proportion of mankind, yet we do hope and trust that within six thousand years more, through the energy and liberality of the Church, God will so far have remedied the evil introduced by Satan that all then living may at least know of His love, and have an opportunity to believe and be saved. We believe that God excuses many of them on account of ignorance. Those who did the best they knew how will be sure of being a part of the saved, even though they never heard of Jesus.

Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

Savior of the World, or Eternal Failure?

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This is me about 1 yr. old.

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This is me about 1 yr. old.

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You can call me Steve

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You can call me Steve

This is me about 1 yr. old.

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