Is there life after physical death, and is there a God?

cvanwey · Apr 5, 2020

RBPerry said:
Here is another for consideration, and yes I know how cold a morgue is, and that wasn't a factor after three days.
George Rodonaia (died 2004) underwent one of the most extended cases of a near-death experience ever recorded. Pronounced dead immediately after he was hit by a car in 1976, he was left for three days in the morgue. He did not "return to life" until a doctor began to make an incision in his abdomen as part of an autopsy procedure.

Wow, in 1976, a person was likely prematurely diagnosed dead, placed in a very cold area for preservation, and then when stimulated, he woke up?

I'm convinced

RBPerry said:
Prior to his NDE he worked as a neuropathologist. He was also an avowed atheist. Yet after the experience, he devoted himself exclusively to the study of spirituality, taking a second doctorate in the psychology of religion. He then became an ordained priest in the Eastern Orthodox Church. He served as a pastor at St. Paul United Methodist Church in Baytown, Texas. Reverend Rodonaia is one of the NDE experiencers profiled who was dead for days during his NDE. Dr. Rodonaia's experience in his own words from Phillip Berman's book, The Journey Home:

Good night, and stay safe.

Great. How is this relevant to anything though?

jayem · Apr 6, 2020

RBPerry said:
Dr. Michael Sabom is a cardiologist whose book entitled Light and Death includes a detailed medical and scientific analysis of an amazing near-death experience (NDE) of a woman named Pam Reynolds (1956--2010). In 1991, at the age of 35, Reynolds underwent a rare operation to remove a giant basilar artery aneurysm in her brain that threatened her life. The size and location of the aneurysm, however, precluded its safe removal using the standard neuro-surgical techniques. She was referred to a neurosurgeon, Dr. Robert F. Spetzler, of the Barrow Neurological Institute in Phoenix, Arizona, who had pioneered a daring surgical procedure known as deep hypothermic cardiac arrest. It allowed Pam's aneurysm to be excised with a reasonable chance of success. This operation, nicknamed "standstill" by the doctors who perform it, required that Pam's body temperature be lowered to 60 degrees, her heartbeat and breathing stopped, her brain waves flattened, and the blood drained from her head. In everyday terms, she was put to death. After removing the aneurysm, she was restored to life. During the time that Pam was in standstill, she experienced an NDE. Her remarkably detailed veridical (i.e., verified) out-of-body observations during her surgery were later verified to be true. Her case is considered to be one of the strongest cases of veridical evidence in NDE research because of her ability to describe the unique surgical instruments, the surgical procedures used on her, and her ability to describe in detail these events while she was clinically brain dead. Pam Reynolds Lowery ultimately died from heart failure, on Saturday May 22, 2010, at the age 53.

That is about as close to being dead as one can be, along with the description she gave of the surgical procedures. To me the combination of no brain activity and her out of body witnessing is pretty strong evidence of spirit and body being separate.

Here's an article for you. It mentions the Reynolds case. It discusses the out-of-body sensation and veridical recall. Among other causes, the OBE can occur after using hallucinogenic drugs. It can occur as part of a hypnagogic hallucination. It's been reported in pilots exposed to high G-forces. (Which likely affect cerebral blood flow.) And it's been reproduced neurosurgically by stimulation of the right temporoparietal junction.

I don't doubt that these phenomena exist, and sometimes have profound effects on those experiencing them. But that's hardly compelling evidence for any kind of spiritual or supernatural realm. It's also quite plausible (I would say almost a certainty) that these all result from neuronal pathways that become activated when the brain is under physiologic stress. But you're perfectly entitled to believe whatever you like.

Out-of-body experiences: Neuroscience or the paranormal?

Getting back to NDE's...the details of what is reported are culture specific. Meaning the NDEs reported by non-European individuals differ from those of typical Western patients. This indicates to me that learning, religion, and one's cultural milieu are major factors in shaping the experience. Which is what one would expect when such an experience is generated by the person's brain. The article is behind a pay wall, but the abstract is an informative summary.

Phenomenology of near-death experiences: a cross-cultural perspective. - PubMed - NCBI

jayem · Apr 6, 2020

xianghua said:
a replicating organic motor doesnt prove design?

You’re entitled to believe it does. But that’s not proof.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13663--myths-the-bacterial-flagellum-is-irreducibly-complex/

And even if all the biological facts aren’t known now, that’s not proof that they never will be.

RBPerry · Apr 6, 2020

jayem said:
You’re entitled to believe it does. But that’s not proof.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13663--myths-the-bacterial-flagellum-is-irreducibly-complex/

And even if all the biological facts aren’t known now, that’s not proof that they never will be.

Here is part of that article. Let's use the KISS principle so anyone following this thread will understand.
The variability across cultures is most likely to be due to our interpretation and verbalizing of such esoteric events through the filters of language, cultural experiences, religion, education and their influence on our belief systems either shedding influence as an individual variable or more often perhaps by their rich interplay between these factors.

Differences in interpretation is to be expected, there are differences in experiences Americans have had. There are different educational levels, language differences, and of course what the individuals personal beliefs prior to the experience would play a part. I only focused on atheist that were pronounced dead. Again this article in no way disproves the validity of these experiences. To me it actually re-enforces it in one sense, if every report of a NDE was exactly the same I would suspect that people were just repeating others testimonies. I have read testimonies of people that I felt there was no validity to. One being a book called "90 seconds in heaven". There was no supporting medical evidence the person came close to death, it was merely his testimony, and there were others. The NDE research being done doesn't even consider such stories.

There is one thing that is an absolute, we are all going to die at some point, then we'll know or won't know anything.

Joy · Apr 7, 2020

MOD HAT ON

This Thread has Moved
From Christian Apologetics
To Christianity and World Religion

MOD HAT OFF

awitch · Apr 7, 2020

RBPerry said:
May I suggest we put all religions aside and try to determine if nirvana, meaning the soul of a person continues to exist beyond physical bodily death, or is there oblivion and that needs no explanation.

Well, first you'd have to demonstrate that souls exist. You can't. Nothing personal; no one can.

May I suggest we begin with no religious arguments but look for evidence outside of religion.

There is a group that has done tremendous research on this subject, and there are many books written. The group that I have studied is the www.neardeathesperiences.com, among others.

The research is based on experiences of people who have died, were resuscitated or came back to life on their own. One must look at the credentials of the people doing the study as well as those who have had these experiences.

That's not research. That's collecting anecdotes. Some of which were admitted to be made up in order to cash in on religious people who were desperate to believe. Would you like to hear the story of my near death experience?

Evidence, we are looking at circumstantial evidence, however many legal cases are solved by overwhelming circumstantial evidence. I ask a friend that is a well know criminal attorney what constitutes a conviction on circumstantial evidence alone. His response was “When the evidence is so overwhelming that there are no other possible conclusions.”

I think this is more anecdotal evidence than circumstantial and it is worthless.

My position remains that there probably is no life after death and any attempt to describe one is purely wishful thinking.

RBPerry · Apr 7, 2020

awitch said:
Would you like to hear the story of my near death experience?

No.

My position remains that there probably is no life after death and any attempt to describe one is purely wishful thinking.

Nothing to discuss, have a nice day and stay safe.

awitch · Apr 7, 2020

RBPerry said:
Nothing to discuss, have a nice day and stay safe.

OK. I just find it odd that you'd ask others to put aside their presuppositions so we can examine your "evidence" but then have no interest in my testimony. Is it because you know it won't align with your presuppositions that you aren't willing to put aside, or because you know that my testimony isn't any more or less credible than the ones you pointed to?

dlamberth · Apr 7, 2020

RBPerry said:
There is one thing that is an absolute, we are all going to die at some point, then we'll know or won't know anything.

Exactly!! Which is why I do not have any after death beliefs. All they are are beliefs, and that's it.

RBPerry · Apr 7, 2020

awitch said:
OK. I just find it odd that you'd ask others to put aside their presuppositions so we can examine your "evidence" but then have no interest in my testimony. Is it because you know it won't align with your presuppositions that you aren't willing to put aside, or because you know that my testimony isn't any more or less credible than the ones you pointed to?

First of all the research that has been done is not just stories with no medical background, so they aren't anecdotal stories.
Do you have medical proof of you NDE, if so please share it as well as medical people that were involved.
Have you reviewed all of the information on the above mentioned web site?
I have reviewed over nine hundred near death stories, out of those I found about 300 to have the clinical and psychological credibility to cause me to come to the conclusions I have.
There is no doubt that many people will create fictitious stories that once investigated hold about as much water as a screen door, I've also found our scientific community mainly at the university level will sometimes do the same thing. I went through college in the seventies, we were taught the homosexuality is a sickness, and where are we today, whatever floats your boat.
So your above comment left me with nothing to discuss with you.
Physiologically it is my belief that many that are afraid of the possibility of existence beyond physical death are more afraid that they may be held accountable for the way they lived their lives. Why do I say that, I'm an example of that very phobia.

awitch · Apr 7, 2020

RBPerry said:
Physiologically it is my belief that many that are afraid of the possibility of existence beyond physical death are more afraid that they may be held accountable for the way they lived their lives. Why do I say that, I'm an example of that very phobia.

It's comforting to think that those who lived a "good" life will be in a "better place", or even be rewarded.

It's comforting to think that those who escaped justice for their crimes in this lifetime, will be unable to escape it in the next, and serve a punishment eventually.

It's comforting to think that there's a powerful judge with the ability to restore fairness after we're all dealt different cards in this lifetime.

It's comforting to think that death is not the end because non-existence is scary and difficult to comprehend.

The concept of an afterlife is a psychological too for dealing with grief, frustration, loss and fear. It can also be a psychological weapon used to intimidate, manipulate, and condemn.

I'm curious what you're afraid of?

Robban · Apr 7, 2020

RBPerry said:
May I suggest we put all religions aside and try to determine if nirvana, meaning the soul of a person continues to exist beyond physical bodily death, or is there oblivion and that needs no explanation.

The next issue then with a belief that there is existence beyond death, who is the governing body.

May I suggest we begin with no religious arguments but look for evidence outside of religion.

There is a group that has done tremendous research on this subject, and there are many books written. The group that I have studied is the www.neardeathesperiences.com, among others.

The research is based on experiences of people who have died, were resuscitated or came back to life on their own. One must look at the credentials of the people doing the study as well as those who have had these experiences.

If someone is truly interested, I would suggest a book by Melvin Morse, M.D. co authored with Paul Perry. There are many more but that is a very good start.

Evidence, we are looking at circumstantial evidence, however many legal cases are solved by overwhelming circumstantial evidence. I ask a friend that is a well know criminal attorney what constitutes a conviction on circumstantial evidence alone. His response was “When the evidence is so overwhelming that there are no other possible conclusions.”

I’m asking if atheist, agnostics, and theist will be willing to look at the research and attempt to put your presuppositions aside for the time being.

I am not sure why you are talking about
circumstantial evidence, what has a criminal attorney
to do with it?

What offence has been commited?

In the case of an offence that is punishable by death,

In Jewish Law circumstantial evidence won,t cut it.

There has to be two impeccable witnesses who witnessed the act.

RBPerry · Apr 7, 2020

awitch said:
The concept of an afterlife is a psychological too for dealing with grief, frustration, loss and fear. It can also be a psychological weapon used to intimidate, manipulate, and condemn.

I'm curious what you're afraid of?

For the ill informed your are correct, psychological manipulation has been well developed by a wide variety of people and belief systems.

I suppose we all have various fears, one thing I can honestly say, I have no fear of death. I grew up with no sisters, my four daughters scare me to death at times. As for all the psychological phobias, I don't think I have any.

RBPerry · Apr 7, 2020

Robban said:
I am not sure why you are talking about
circumstantial evidence, what has a criminal attorney
to do with it?

What offence has been commited?

In the case of an offence that is punishable by death,

In Jewish Law circumstantial evidence won,t cut it.

There has to be two impeccable witnesses who witnessed the act.

Well under the Mosaic law we would wipe out a large percentage of our current population. Adulterers, rapist, homosexuals would be stoned. People worshiping pagan gods would be killed, I think we have come a longs ways. That is why the Gnostic Christian thought that the god of the old testament was a different god than the new.

Well tell my wife about circumstantial evidence, many people sitting in American prisons are there due to overwhelming circumstantial evidence, and some are in prison convicted with very weak evidence, and a few are wrongly convicted. She will tell you once the circumstantial evidence leaves no other possible conclusion it is no longer circumstantial, it's factual, but that is lawyer talk.

As for people that have had near death experiences I think there is sufficient evidence to support the medically confirmed testimonies as being enough to confirm the spirit lives beyond our physical lives.

You not only need to evaluate their testimonies, you need to look at the effect it has hand on their lives, there ability to accurately describe events when they left their bodies.

awitch · Apr 7, 2020

RBPerry said:
For the ill informed your are correct, psychological manipulation has been well developed by a wide variety of people and belief systems.

That's why I don't trust anyone who claims to know "the Truth".

I suppose we all have various fears, one thing I can honestly say, I have no fear of death. I grew up with no sisters, my four daughters scare me to death at times. As for all the psychological phobias, I don't think I have any.

I like that Woody Allen quote about not being afraid of death, but not wanting to be around when it happens.

I have one daughter.

RBPerry · Apr 7, 2020

One thing about truth, it is absolute. We may not know what that truth is, and we can be wrong about what we believe. The idea that your truth isn't my truth is nuts, we all just need to evaluate with an open mind, and sometimes that is very difficult.

One thing I have learned about knowledge, is about the time you get half of the answers, they change all the questions.

Mitty · Apr 7, 2020

RBPerry said:
Well under the Mosaic law we would wipe out a large percentage of our current population. Adulterers, rapist, homosexuals would be stoned. People worshiping pagan gods would be killed, I think we have come a longs ways. That is why the Gnostic Christian thought that the god of the old testament was a different god than the new.

Well tell my wife about circumstantial evidence, many people sitting in American prisons are there due to overwhelming circumstantial evidence, and some are in prison convicted with very weak evidence, and a few are wrongly convicted. She will tell you once the circumstantial evidence leaves no other possible conclusion it is no longer circumstantial, it's factual, but that is lawyer talk.

As for people that have had near death experiences I think there is sufficient evidence to support the medically confirmed testimonies as being enough to confirm the spirit lives beyond our physical lives.

You not only need to evaluate their testimonies, you need to look at the effect it has hand on their lives, there ability to accurately describe events when they left their bodies.

What happened to the rotting corpses after they crawled out of their graves and wandered around down-town Jerusalem, and where were their spirits (Matt 27:52-53)?

Robban · Apr 8, 2020

RBPerry said:
Well under the Mosaic law we would wipe out a large percentage of our current population. Adulterers, rapist, homosexuals would be stoned. People worshiping pagan gods would be killed, I think we have come a longs ways. That is why the Gnostic Christian thought that the god of the old testament was a different god than the new.

Well tell my wife about circumstantial evidence, many people sitting in American prisons are there due to overwhelming circumstantial evidence, and some are in prison convicted with very weak evidence, and a few are wrongly convicted. She will tell you once the circumstantial evidence leaves no other possible conclusion it is no longer circumstantial, it's factual, but that is lawyer talk.

As for people that have had near death experiences I think there is sufficient evidence to support the medically confirmed testimonies as being enough to confirm the spirit lives beyond our physical lives.

You not only need to evaluate their testimonies, you need to look at the effect it has hand on their lives, there ability to accurately describe events when they left their bodies.

It is not so easy to commit someone to death under Torah Law,
A "Minor Sanhedrin" consists of 23 judges,
and no one is stoned today.

But apart from that, why the need to prove if someone
has had one of these nde things.

It concerns no one but themselves.

Robban · Apr 8, 2020

Psalms 72,
A prayer by King David that his son Solomon be granted wisdom to provide justice.

In the darkness that the world is plunged into,

May the Messiah come speedily in our days.

RBPerry · Apr 8, 2020

Well Robban, He did come, 2000 years ago. Why share NDE, well it just might shed a little light on many misunderstandings that many religions have. You see, God is a God of love, He loves all people, not just the Jews. True Christianity isn't about rules as much it is about loving all people, not just in word, but in deeds as well.
Wesley said it perfectly, love God with all your heart, and love your neighbor (meaning all people) as yourself, all the rest is just commentary.
Shalom, stay safe.

Is there life after physical death, and is there a God?

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